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Armor: armpit Re:From Leprechaun Jack Murphy.

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#2924 [2003-12-19 11:29:30]

Armor: armpit Re:From Leprechaun Jack Murphy.

by murphymurphyjohn@aol.com

While I hold no brief as an expert in armour, offhand it seems that the
armourers of Western Europe were much more concerned with the articulation of
their armor than those in Japan. Whether Gothic or Maximilian, German or Italian
or French, the armourers seemed to take more care in what we would call the
ergonomics of armor than did their contemporaries in Japan. If one studies
merely the arm defenses of both knight and samurai...not getting into the
technical terms French or Japanese..it seems apparent (at least to me) that there
was more technical sophistication, including armpit armor, in the armor shops
of Augsburg than in Sakai. Of course, the question arises also did Japan have
the mineral resources to produce all the steel armor that Europe had? Jack


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#2927 [2003-12-19 13:33:40]

Re: [samuraihistory] Armor: armpit Re:From Leprechaun Jack Murphy.

by goodfella26426

"Of course, the question arises also did Japan have
the mineral resources to produce all the steel armor that Europe had? Jack"

Nope.. thats why they used iron sparingly in their armour and for the most part it was made out of leather.. the iron they had went towards swords...



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#2928 [2003-12-19 14:01:10]

Re: [samuraihistory] Armor: armpit Re:From Leprechaun Jack Murphy.

by sengokudaimyo

Josh Wilson wrote:
> "Of course, the question arises also did Japan have the mineral resources to
> produce all the steel armor that Europe had? Jack"
>
> Nope.. thats why they used iron sparingly in their armour and for the most
> part it was made out of leather.. the iron they had went towards swords...

Actually, that's not true. The vast majority of armours -- especially post 1500
-- were made entirely of metal. Armour-grade leather was more problematic than
armour-grade iron.

Tony

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#2930 [2003-12-19 14:23:40]

Re: [samuraihistory] Armor: armpit Re:From Leprechaun Jack Murphy.

by nihontonut

I would disagree, what could possibly permit more movement for the arms than chainmail? As for
the body protection most Japanese do were constructed of many small plates laced together allowing
it to flex and bend in any direction, as an overall armour the Japanese armour was more flexable, far
lighter and protected a person almost if not as well as a european armour.

Dave Jackson

----- Original Message -----
From: murphymurphyjohn@...
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 11:29 AM
Subject: [samuraihistory] Armor: armpit Re:From Leprechaun Jack Murphy.


While I hold no brief as an expert in armour, offhand it seems that the
armourers of Western Europe were much more concerned with the articulation of
their armor than those in Japan. Whether Gothic or Maximilian, German or Italian
or French, the armourers seemed to take more care in what we would call the
ergonomics of armor than did their contemporaries in Japan. If one studies
merely the arm defenses of both knight and samurai...not getting into the
technical terms French or Japanese..it seems apparent (at least to me) that there
was more technical sophistication, including armpit armor, in the armor shops
of Augsburg than in Sakai. Of course, the question arises also did Japan have
the mineral resources to produce all the steel armor that Europe had? Jack


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#2931 [2003-12-19 14:30:29]

Top knot

by crazoftheages

Does anyone know how people got that top knot
hairstyle to hold? It seems to kinda defy physics,
being an upside down pony tail that keeps it's place
all day. Did they just use a lot of oil or wax or something?

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#2932 [2003-12-19 14:53:07]

Re: [samuraihistory] Armor: armpit Re:From Leprechaun Jack Murphy.

by sengokudaimyo

murphymurphyjohn@... wrote:

> While I hold no brief as an expert in armour, offhand it seems that the
> armourers of Western Europe were much more concerned with the articulation of
> their armor than those in Japan. Whether Gothic or Maximilian, German or Italian
> or French, the armourers seemed to take more care in what we would call the
> ergonomics of armor than did their contemporaries in Japan. If one studies
> merely the arm defenses of both knight and samurai...not getting into the
> technical terms French or Japanese..it seems apparent (at least to me) that there
> was more technical sophistication, including armpit armor, in the armor shops
> of Augsburg than in Sakai. Of course, the question arises also did Japan have
> the mineral resources to produce all the steel armor that Europe had? Jack

Speaking as one who's worn both types of armour, I can see little difference
when it comes to the armpit. Both European and Japanese were exposed there, so
both had alternate methods of dealing with it; the Japanese had the manjuwa or
wakibiki worn under the armour, and the Europeans had arming doublets with
integral mail gussets.

I assure you: if articulation is important, you can't articulate better than a
cloth foundation. The difference is the amount of *solid* protection on the
sleeves. European were solid, with upper and lower canons and articulated elbow
cops, while the Japanese didn't provide the same amount of solid protection.
It's an exchange: the Japanese as a rule was looser and provided a far greater
range of motion, while the European was more protective and in all but the
highest quality suits a slightly restricted range of motion.

Were I fighting Europeans, I'd prefer their armour; but fighting the Japanese,
I'd prefer *theirs*. They were each admirably suited to the milieu in which they
were used.

(But, yeah, Augsburg armourers made *damn* nice looking stuff!)

Tony

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#2935 [2003-12-19 18:53:45]

Re: [samuraihistory] Armor: armpit Re:From Leprechaun Jack Murphy.

by goodfella26426

A.J.,
I was under the impression that Japan wasnt very mineral rch... did they trade for their Iron from China or perhaps the purtuguese??

Wilson


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#2950 [2003-12-20 15:57:22]

Re: [samuraihistory] Armor: armpit Re:From Leprechaun Jack Murphy.

by sengokudaimyo

Josh Wilson wrote:

> A.J., I was under the impression that Japan wasnt very mineral rch... did
> they trade for their Iron from China or perhaps the purtuguese??


I'm not totally sure. But "not mineral rich" doesn't mean "doesn't have
minerals" -- it just means what they have is expensive.


Tony

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#2953 [2003-12-20 22:23:08]

Re: [samuraihistory] Armor: armpit Re:From Leprechaun Jack Murphy.

by soshuju

On Friday, Dec 19, 2003, at 18:53 US/Pacific, Josh Wilson wrote:

> A.J.,
> I was under the impression that Japan wasnt very mineral rch... did
> they trade for their Iron from China or perhaps the purtuguese??
>
> Wilson
>
>
Josh et al-
Japan being a set of volcanic islands I think would mean they were in
fact mineral rich. Afterall European traders were notorious for
leaching Japanese gold from the country any way they could in the
nineteenth century because it was found to be so pure.
Japanese swords were in fact exported in great numbers to China, and I
believe it was the richness of the local iron and the particular
impurities therein which helped to make the japanese sword the best in
the world...
-t
production of course was time consuming and therefore never cheap.

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#8753 [2006-05-14 22:52:33]

Top knot

by samurai_iaijutsu

Was there any story behind samurai top knot and half-bald? Why did samurai
have to have the kind of hair style? Since when (what period) it became the
style? Was it a must or just option?

Thanks.
Regards,

Totok Sudarijanto
http://www.samurai.or.id
email: totoks@...

"Among flowers, the cherry blossom; among men, the samurai."

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