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are there still samurai

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#2702 [2003-12-07 16:26:35]

are there still samurai

by longhunter1748

i jsut saw the last samurai and was wondering how much of it was
fact and are there still samurai today thanks

you can email me back with any help at longhunter1748@...

[Next #2706]

#2706 [2003-12-07 19:03:48]

Re: [samuraihistory] are there still samurai

by sengokudaimyo

longhunter1748 wrote:

> i jsut saw the last samurai and was wondering how much of it was
> fact and are there still samurai today thanks


And people ask me why I curse whenever someone mentions that damned film in my
presence. Sigh.

It is complete unmitigated fiction. And no, there are no more samurai; they
ceased to exist with the stroke of a legislative pen (okay, a brush) in the 1870s.

Tony

[Previous #2702] [Next #2709]

#2709 [2003-12-07 19:28:45]

Re: [samuraihistory] are there still samurai

by cepooooo

On Dec 7, 2003, at 5:03 PM, Anthony J. Bryant wrote:

> longhunter1748 wrote:
>
> > i jsut saw the last samurai and was wondering how much of it was
> > fact and are there still samurai today thanks
>
>
> And people ask me why I curse whenever someone mentions that damned
> film in my
> presence. Sigh.
>
> It is complete unmitigated fiction. And no, there are no more samurai;
> they
> ceased to exist with the stroke of a legislative pen (okay, a brush)
> in the 1870s.
>
> Tony
>

Tony, I don't think the problem is with the movie, which is actually
quite good (as a movie - NOT documentary).

The problem is with the fact that far too many kids are ignorant in
history (which they "learn" only from movies and videogames), while a
few other people have a problem in telling facts from fiction.

I think the role of this mailing list should be to beef them up with a
good dose of reliable information, and in a way "The Last Samurai"
offers the chance to many people to begin to learn something for real.
And for us who know a bit about the samurai, is a great chance to share
our knowledge with others.

Let's keep a positive, open-minded spirit.

Gaman, gaman!!! ;o)
cepo



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #2706] [Next #2711]

#2711 [2003-12-07 19:02:13]

Re: [samuraihistory] are there still samurai

by klancesegall

no, no samurai today. hence the title of the movie.
and parts of it were true, parts werent... just like
most historical movies (gladiator comes to mind, but
the differences are a bit more pronounced in samurai).

--- longhunter1748 <longhunter1748@...> wrote:
> i jsut saw the last samurai and was wondering how
> much of it was
> fact and are there still samurai today thanks
>
> you can email me back with any help at
> longhunter1748@...
>
>
>


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[Previous #2709] [Next #2713]

#2713 [2003-12-07 19:22:39]

Re: [samuraihistory] are there still samurai

by klancesegall

u think it was still a brush back then? i mean, with
all the western influence craze of the time.

--- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:
> longhunter1748 wrote:
>
> > i jsut saw the last samurai and was wondering how
> much of it was
> > fact and are there still samurai today thanks
>
>
> And people ask me why I curse whenever someone
> mentions that damned film in my
> presence. Sigh.
>
> It is complete unmitigated fiction. And no, there
> are no more samurai; they
> ceased to exist with the stroke of a legislative pen
> (okay, a brush) in the 1870s.
>
> Tony
>
>


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[Previous #2711] [Next #2718]

#2718 [2003-12-07 22:00:25]

Re: [samuraihistory] are there still samurai (One Last Comment)

by Lee Changsub

Dear Friends:
Yet, we are not talking about "matrix" here....

If Bushido and Samurai stuffs are really fantacy,
there is no point of discussing all these issues put
forth here at all.
I guess that there is more subtle issues behind all
these remarks here.




Sincerely,




Changsub Lee




> On Dec 7, 2003, at 5:03 PM, Anthony J. Bryant wrote:
>
> > longhunter1748 wrote:
> >
> > > i jsut saw the last samurai and was wondering
> how much of it was
> > > fact and are there still samurai today thanks
> >
> >
> > And people ask me why I curse whenever someone
> mentions that damned
> > film in my
> > presence. Sigh.
> >
> > It is complete unmitigated fiction. And no, there
> are no more samurai;
> > they
> > ceased to exist with the stroke of a legislative
> pen (okay, a brush)
> > in the 1870s.
> >
> > Tony
> >
>
> Tony, I don't think the problem is with the movie,
> which is actually
> quite good (as a movie - NOT documentary).
>
> Let's keep a positive, open-minded spirit.
>
> Gaman, gaman!!! ;o)
> cepo
>
>


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[Previous #2713] [Next #2719]

#2719 [2003-12-07 22:02:24]

Re: [samuraihistory] are there still samurai

by Lee Changsub

--- The Angry Llama <klancesegall@...> wrote:
> no, no samurai today. hence the title of the movie.
> and parts of it were true, parts werent... just like
> most historical movies (gladiator comes to mind, but
> the differences are a bit more pronounced in
> samurai).
>


Well, the battle scene in gladiator reminded me of the
classical US Army Field manuals. That was not how
Romans really fought....

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[Previous #2718] [Next #2721]

#2721 [2003-12-07 23:25:03]

Re: [samuraihistory] are there still samurai

by burker94509

I suppose because it's late that my twisted lawyer's mind is looking at this
question sideways (are there still samurai?), but I suppose it's analogous to
the question of whether or not there is still French, German, or Russian
royalty.

There are certainly claimants to these thrones, even though the thrones were
abolished with the stroke of a pen (ok, sometimes the stroke was accompanied
by a revolution, but you get my drift). Still, the legislation abolishing the
existence of the monarchy doesn't stop people from claiming to be royal.

In the same way, I suppose that someone with the proper ancestry could still
claim to be samurai, even if the law does not recognize his or her claim.

Bob Burke


In a message dated 12/7/03 7:05:44 PM, ajbryant@... writes:

<< longhunter1748 wrote:

> i jsut saw the last samurai and was wondering how much of it was
> fact and are there still samurai today thanks


And people ask me why I curse whenever someone mentions that damned film in
my
presence. Sigh.

It is complete unmitigated fiction. And no, there are no more samurai; they
ceased to exist with the stroke of a legislative pen (okay, a brush) in the
1870s.

Tony



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[Previous #2719] [Next #2724]

#2724 [2003-12-08 00:10:51]

Re: [samuraihistory] are there still samurai

by cepooooo

I think it had to be a seal.
Japanese still use seals today, rather than signatures.

I had to have mine when I lived in Kyoto!!
cepo

On Dec 7, 2003, at 5:22 PM, The Angry Llama wrote:

> u think it was still a brush back then? i mean, with
> all the western influence craze of the time.
>
> --- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:
> > longhunter1748 wrote:
> >
> > > i jsut saw the last samurai and was wondering how
> > much of it was
> > > fact and are there still samurai today thanks
> >
> >
> > And people ask me why I curse whenever someone
> > mentions that damned film in my
> > presence. Sigh.
> >
> > It is complete unmitigated fiction. And no, there
> > are no more samurai; they
> > ceased to exist with the stroke of a legislative pen
> > (okay, a brush) in the 1870s.
> >
> > Tony


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #2721] [Next #2726]

#2726 [2003-12-08 00:27:29]

Re: [samuraihistory] are there still samurai

by cepooooo

On Dec 7, 2003, at 9:25 PM, burker1@... wrote:

> I suppose because it's late that my twisted lawyer's mind is looking
> at this
> question sideways (are there still samurai?), but I suppose it's
> analogous to
> the question of whether or  not there is still French, German, or
> Russian
> royalty.
>
> There are certainly claimants to these thrones, even though the
> thrones were
> abolished with the stroke of a pen (ok, sometimes the stroke was
> accompanied
> by a revolution, but you get my drift).  Still, the legislation
> abolishing the
> existence of the monarchy doesn't stop people from claiming to be
> royal.
>
> In the same way, I suppose that someone with the proper ancestry could
> still
> claim to be samurai, even if the law does not recognize his or her
> claim.
>
> Bob Burke

Interestingly, I have asked a gazillion of young Japanese friends what
was their family doing in the Tokugawa period, and only TWO could
answer. One is the descendent from a Gono (a rich farmer) and he is
still the son of the head of a village in Ise; the other knows his
family was in business in Sakai. My wife comes from a noble family of
scholars from Kyoto, but she did not know!! I had to do the research
for her!!!! Phew.
cepo


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #2724] [Next #2744]

#2744 [2003-12-08 14:42:23]

Dead Subjects-II

by Lee Changsub

Dear Cesare:
I do appreciate for your extensive study and stay in
Japan and bondage through your marriage. But, let me
tell you one story...

One of American professors I used to know personally
stayed for only a few days in Japan when he was in his
early thirties. Yet, he met the Japanese prime
minister for a talk.
Staying 5 years in Japan and interrogating 'a
gazillion of' young Japanese friends sounds indeed
scholastic.
But I wonder if it would be the same experience for
you if you also could visit Japan 5 days and meet a
Japanese prime minister and other noble families.

Maybe, you have to expand your Japanese network with
more emphasis on quality instead on quantity.




Sincerely,





Changsub Lee


> Interestingly, I have asked a gazillion of young
> Japanese friends what
> was their family doing in the Tokugawa period, and
> only TWO could
> answer. My wife comes from
> a noble family of
> scholars from Kyoto, but she did not know!! I had to
> do the research
> for her!!!! Phew.
> cepo
>


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[Previous #2726] [Next #2747]

#2747 [2003-12-08 17:50:09]

Re: Dead Subjects-II

by kitsuno

I in no way interpreted what he had written as 'scholarship', simply
an informal poll that supports the general view that the Japanese
don't know thier history - just like most everyone else (although
the Bushido followers in the West tend to think Japan is still the
land of Bushido and Samurai). So I find your 'story' a bit
unrelated...


--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Lee Changsub
wrote:
> Dear Cesare:
> I do appreciate for your extensive study and stay in
> Japan and bondage through your marriage. But, let me
> tell you one story...
>
> One of American professors I used to know personally
> stayed for only a few days in Japan when he was in his
> early thirties. Yet, he met the Japanese prime
> minister for a talk.
> Staying 5 years in Japan and interrogating 'a
> gazillion of' young Japanese friends sounds indeed
> scholastic.
> But I wonder if it would be the same experience for
> you if you also could visit Japan 5 days and meet a
> Japanese prime minister and other noble families.
>
> Maybe, you have to expand your Japanese network with
> more emphasis on quality instead on quantity.
>
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
>
>
>
>
> Changsub Lee
>
>
> > Interestingly, I have asked a gazillion of young
> > Japanese friends what
> > was their family doing in the Tokugawa period, and
> > only TWO could
> > answer. My wife comes from
> > a noble family of
> > scholars from Kyoto, but she did not know!! I had to
> > do the research
> > for her!!!! Phew.
> > cepo
> >
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
> http://photos.yahoo.com/

[Previous #2744] [Next #2750]

#2750 [2003-12-08 19:03:29]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Dead Subjects-II

by cepooooo

Well, yeah, actually that was so. If you read the very informative and
entertaining autobiography of Fukuzawa Yukichi, when he fist visits the
US he is really puzzled at finding out how Americans do knowvery little
about their ancestors. Japan is becoming a bit like that, with people
having no idea of what their families were doing only a bit more than
100 years ago. That's all!
Please, do not read too much into my Emails!! we are just
chit-chatting!! :oO
cepo, honolulu

On Dec 8, 2003, at 3:50 PM, Kitsuno wrote:

> I in no way interpreted what he had written as 'scholarship', simply
> an informal poll that supports the general view that the Japanese
> don't know thier history - just like most everyone else (although
> the Bushido followers in the West tend to think Japan is still the
> land of Bushido and Samurai).  So I find your 'story' a bit
> unrelated...
>
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Lee Changsub
> wrote:
> > Dear Cesare:
> > I do appreciate for your extensive study and stay in
> > Japan and bondage through your marriage. But, let me
> > tell you one story...
> >
> > One of American professors I used to know personally
> > stayed for only a few days in Japan when he was in his
> > early thirties. Yet, he met the Japanese prime
> > minister for a talk.
> > Staying 5 years in Japan and interrogating 'a
> > gazillion of' young Japanese friends sounds indeed
> > scholastic.
> > But I wonder if it would be the same experience for
> > you if you also could visit Japan 5 days and meet a
> > Japanese prime minister and other noble families.
> >
> > Maybe, you have to expand your Japanese network with
> > more emphasis on quality instead on quantity.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >���������������������������� Sincerely,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >���������������������������� Changsub Lee
> >
> >
> > > Interestingly, I have asked a gazillion of young
> > > Japanese friends what
> > > was their family doing in the Tokugawa period, and
> > > only TWO could
> > > answer. My wife comes from
> > > a noble family of
> > > scholars from Kyoto, but she did not know!! I had to
> > > do the research
> > > for her!!!! Phew.
> > > cepo
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
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[Previous #2747] [Next #2752]

#2752 [2003-12-08 20:21:45]

Re: [samuraihistory] are there still samurai

by soshuju

All-
Rather than "endure" these newbie questions, we really should follow
Cepo's advice and add a "What is a Samurai" FAQ to the history page.
Let's politely suggest new members follow the link and read the
material. If we all follow the same response each time a newbie comes
online no ONE of us need shoulder the burden of bursting bubbles. If
they persist in their delusions, then we can flame away. While I find
it entertaining I think it represents us poorly when new members are
beaten up with their first post...
-t

[Previous #2750] [Next #2755]

#2755 [2003-12-08 20:45:51]

Re: are there still samurai

by kitsuno

If someone wants to bother to take the time to do it, I'm all for
it, and I'll put it in the introductory email.


--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Tom Helm
wrote:
> All-
> Rather than "endure" these newbie questions, we really should
follow
> Cepo's advice and add a "What is a Samurai" FAQ to the history
page.
> Let's politely suggest new members follow the link and read the
> material. If we all follow the same response each time a newbie
comes
> online no ONE of us need shoulder the burden of bursting bubbles.
If
> they persist in their delusions, then we can flame away. While I
find
> it entertaining I think it represents us poorly when new members
are
> beaten up with their first post...
> -t

[Previous #2752] [Next #2759]

#2759 [2003-12-08 23:37:12]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: are there still samurai

by soshuju

Kitsuno-
We could just stitch a few of these posts together but you are right
can't be too hard to do a couple of paragraphs...
willing to add my bit -t

[Previous #2755] [Next #2764]

#2764 [2003-12-09 08:08:34]

Re: [samuraihistory] are there still samurai

by ltdomer98

Tony--

Have you seen it? I could care less what some wannabe
ninja turtle thinks about it. What did you think about
it? I haven't seen it yet--I'll be going on Friday.
Some more important things (like seeing my wife for
the first time in 6 months) have been taking up my
time.

Nate

--- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:
> longhunter1748 wrote:
>
> > i jsut saw the last samurai and was wondering how
> much of it was
> > fact and are there still samurai today thanks
>
>
> And people ask me why I curse whenever someone
> mentions that damned film in my
> presence. Sigh.
>
> It is complete unmitigated fiction. And no, there
> are no more samurai; they
> ceased to exist with the stroke of a legislative pen
> (okay, a brush) in the 1870s.
>
> Tony
>
>


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Do you Yahoo!?
New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
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[Previous #2759] [Next #2768]

#2768 [2003-12-09 09:28:13]

Re: [samuraihistory] are there still samurai

by sengokudaimyo

Nate Ledbetter wrote:
> Tony--
>
> Have you seen it? I could care less what some wannabe
> ninja turtle thinks about it. What did you think about
> it? I haven't seen it yet--I'll be going on Friday.
> Some more important things (like seeing my wife for
> the first time in 6 months) have been taking up my
> time.

No, I've not seen it yet. I don't know when (or whether) I'll go.

I feel very much about it the way I do Braveheart: a horribly flawed film from a
historical perspective which, frankly, I wish had never been made. I've never
been able to sit through an entire Braveheart, either.


Tony

[Previous #2764] [Next #2774]

#2774 [2003-12-09 11:57:19]

Re: [samuraihistory] are there still samurai

by goodfella26426

"While I find
it entertaining I think it represents us poorly when new members are
beaten up with their first post..."

Amen.. everyone has to start somewhere.. why knock them down before they even get a chance to start learning?? Ive seen the same behaviour many, many times before.....

Wilson

--

--------- Original Message ---------
DATE: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 20:21:45
From: Tom Helm <junkmail@...>
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Cc:

All-
Rather than "endure" these newbie questions, we really should follow
Cepo's advice and add a "What is a Samurai" FAQ to the history page.
Let's politely suggest new members follow the link and read the
material. If we all follow the same response each time a newbie comes
online no ONE of us need shoulder the burden of bursting bubbles. If
they persist in their delusions, then we can flame away. While I find
it entertaining I think it represents us poorly when new members are
beaten up with their first post...
-t


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[Previous #2768] [Next #2785]

#2785 [2003-12-09 20:16:36]

Re: are there still samurai

by klancesegall

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony J. Bryant"
wrote:
> Nate Ledbetter wrote:
> > Tony--
> >
> > Have you seen it? I could care less what some wannabe
> > ninja turtle thinks about it. What did you think about
> > it? I haven't seen it yet--I'll be going on Friday.
> > Some more important things (like seeing my wife for
> > the first time in 6 months) have been taking up my
> > time.
>
> No, I've not seen it yet. I don't know when (or whether) I'll go.
>
> I feel very much about it the way I do Braveheart: a horribly
flawed film from a
> historical perspective which, frankly, I wish had never been made.
I've never
> been able to sit through an entire Braveheart, either.
>
>
> Tony

I dunno Tony, I mean, come on, are you going to hate Star Wars just
because lightsabers and hyperspace and sound in space are all
impossible? It bugs me too when people take stuff like Highlander
and the Last Samurai and Glory and are suddendly historical experts.
But there's something to fantasy and fiction, and I mean, Braveheart
and The Last Samurai, while being historically innaccurate, are
pretty good movies.

[Previous #2774] [Next #2789]

#2789 [2003-12-09 22:13:38]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: are there still samurai

by cepooooo

On Dec 9, 2003, at 6:16 PM, Kyle Segall wrote:

> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony J. Bryant"
> wrote:
> > Nate Ledbetter wrote:
> > > Tony--
> > >
> > > Have you seen it? I could care less what some wannabe
> > > ninja turtle thinks about it. What did you think about
> > > it? I haven't seen it yet--I'll be going on Friday.
> > > Some more important things (like seeing my wife for
> > > the first time in 6 months) have been taking up my
> > > time.
> >
> > No, I've not seen it yet. I don't know when (or whether) I'll go.
> >
> > I feel very much about it the way I do Braveheart: a horribly
> flawed film from a
> > historical perspective which, frankly, I wish had never been made.
> I've never
> > been able to sit through an entire Braveheart, either.
> >
> >
> > Tony
>
> I dunno Tony, I mean, come on, are you going to hate Star Wars just
> because lightsabers and hyperspace and sound in space are all
> impossible? It bugs me too when people take stuff like Highlander
> and the Last Samurai and Glory and are suddendly historical experts.
> But there's something to fantasy and fiction, and I mean, Braveheart
> and The Last Samurai, while being historically innaccurate, are
> pretty good movies.

I would push it even a bit further. I do not believe they are
"inaccurate." Inaccurate would be something that wants to be
historically accurate but it's not. Here we talk about plain historical
FICTION. The two main characters of "The Last Samurai" are NOT
historical characters, so, to expect accuracy is a paradox. This is a
major Hollywood production that entertains for a couple of hours, and
that's it. It has been done to make $$$, and features one of the most
popular actors in the world. It's not a cult-movie for a bunch of
scholars of the samurai. So, take it or leave it, but if we criticize
the movie, we should do so thinking of what the movie IS, not what we
would like the movie TO BE.
cepo


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #2785] [Next #2802]

#2802 [2003-12-10 08:32:08]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: are there still samurai

by ltdomer98

Nobody's expecting it to be accurate HISTORY--then it
becomes a documentary. Simply by being fiction, it's
not history. What bothers myself, and Tony, and
others, is when things that are simply WRONG are
perpetuated. For example, the samurai in the Satsuma
Rebellion did NOT fight with bows against a modern
army with firearms--as has been stated, the Japanese
had been using firearms for several centuries, and the
Satsuma army had firearms, wore "uniforms", and wasn't
this Sengoku style army. Though that makes for better
cinematography and wins you Oscars for costume design,
so accuracy loses to spectacle.

The problem isn't with the STORY--heck, if we can
accept Shogun, we can accept anything. It's the
details that are flat WRONG, and perpetuate the myths.
That's what is so frustrating. I'll go see the movie,
and I might even enjoy it, but I will not understand
why you can't make a good movie that's not a bunch of
cliches and hogwash.

Nate



--- Cesare Polenghi <cepo@...> wrote:
>
> On Dec 9, 2003, at 6:16 PM, Kyle Segall wrote:
>
> > --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony J.
> Bryant"
> > wrote:
> > > Nate Ledbetter wrote:
> > > > Tony--
> > > >
> > > > Have you seen it? I could care less what some
> wannabe
> > > > ninja turtle thinks about it. What did you
> think about
> > > > it? I haven't seen it yet--I'll be going on
> Friday.
> > > > Some more important things (like seeing my
> wife for
> > > > the first time in 6 months) have been taking
> up my
> > > > time.
> > >
> > > No, I've not seen it yet. I don't know when (or
> whether) I'll go.
> > >
> > > I feel very much about it the way I do
> Braveheart: a horribly
> > flawed film from a
> > > historical perspective which, frankly, I wish
> had never been made.
> > I've never
> > > been able to sit through an entire Braveheart,
> either.
> > >
> > >
> > > Tony
> >
> > I dunno Tony, I mean, come on, are you going to
> hate Star Wars just
> > because lightsabers and hyperspace and sound in
> space are all
> > impossible? It bugs me too when people take stuff
> like Highlander
> > and the Last Samurai and Glory and are suddendly
> historical experts.
> > But there's something to fantasy and fiction, and
> I mean, Braveheart
> > and The Last Samurai, while being historically
> innaccurate, are
> > pretty good movies.
>
> I would push it even a bit further. I do not believe
> they are
> "inaccurate." Inaccurate would be something that
> wants to be
> historically accurate but it's not. Here we talk
> about plain historical
> FICTION. The two main characters of "The Last
> Samurai" are NOT
> historical characters, so, to expect accuracy is a
> paradox. This is a
> major Hollywood production that entertains for a
> couple of hours, and
> that's it. It has been done to make $$$, and
> features one of the most
> popular actors in the world. It's not a cult-movie
> for a bunch of
> scholars of the samurai. So, take it or leave it,
> but if we criticize
> the movie, we should do so thinking of what the
> movie IS, not what we
> would like the movie TO BE.
> cepo
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>


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[Previous #2789] [Next #2805]

#2805 [2003-12-10 14:24:54]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: are there still samurai

by sengokudaimyo

Kyle Segall wrote:


> I dunno Tony, I mean, come on, are you going to hate Star Wars just
> because lightsabers and hyperspace and sound in space are all
> impossible?

Surely you aren't comparing SF/fantasy to historical epics...

> It bugs me too when people take stuff like Highlander
> and the Last Samurai and Glory and are suddendly historical experts.
> But there's something to fantasy and fiction, and I mean, Braveheart
> and The Last Samurai, while being historically innaccurate, are
> pretty good movies.

Perhaps, but not enough people *get it* that they're just movies.

Tony

[Previous #2802] [Next #2808]

#2808 [2003-12-10 14:22:26]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: are there still samurai

by sengokudaimyo

Cesare Polenghi wrote:


> I would push it even a bit further. I do not believe they are
> "inaccurate." Inaccurate would be something that wants to be
> historically accurate but it's not. Here we talk about plain historical
> FICTION. The two main characters of "The Last Samurai" are NOT
> historical characters, so, to expect accuracy is a paradox. This is a
> major Hollywood production that entertains for a couple of hours, and
> that's it. It has been done to make $$$, and features one of the most
> popular actors in the world. It's not a cult-movie for a bunch of
> scholars of the samurai. So, take it or leave it, but if we criticize
> the movie, we should do so thinking of what the movie IS, not what we
> would like the movie TO BE.

I take a much harder view. "Dances With Wolves" is historical fiction, but it
doesn't pretend to present a "real" historical event. I have no problems with it
(although I can't stand it for other reasons).

"Shakespeare in Love," likewise, as a comedy doesn't pretend to be history. I
have no problem with it. "Elizabeth," on the other hand, plays fast and loose
with history and historical characters and events and fails the test.

No one thinks "Robin Hood" is history. No one thinks "Lion in Winter" is
history, but a fictive "slice of life" look at the family of Henry II.

"Braveheart" masquerades as history, as does "Last Samurai."

Ick.

Tony

[Previous #2805] [Next #2811]

#2811 [2003-12-10 15:31:09]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: are there still samurai

by cepooooo

On Dec 10, 2003, at 6:32 AM, Nate Ledbetter wrote:

>
> The problem isn't with the STORY--heck, if we can
> accept Shogun, we can accept anything. It's the
> details that are flat WRONG, and perpetuate the myths.
> That's what is so frustrating. I'll go see the movie,
> and I might even enjoy it, but I will not understand
> why you can't make a good movie that's not a bunch of
> cliches and hogwash.
>
> Nate

You are right, Nate, but these movies are not out there to educate -
they just swap entertainment for $$$.
Nevertheless, I really thought it was funny to see Tom Cruise and Ken
Watanabe fighting side-by-side against ninja. Last night I watched
again a couple of episodes of 'Toshiie to Matsue.' Well, the fighting
scenes were pathetic, anyway the whole show is all-over entertaining.
Why not accepting the distortion of modern production - especially when
we know that they are there for specific reasons?
cepo

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #2808] [Next #2813]

#2813 [2003-12-10 15:13:17]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: are there still samurai

by crazoftheages

Then get mad at the people, not the movie. I wanted
to backhand half of the idiots standing outside the
movie afterwards talking about how "accurate" this
fictional event was, and I likewise DID backhand a
friend of mine for answering a question directed about
me incorrectly with information based off of the
movie.

The movie was a good movie, just like other people
have mentioned, Glory, Bravehart, Gladiator, hell, I
even like The Patriot. If you didn't like the movie
cause you just didn't think it was good, then that's a
whole different thing, but don't down it cause it
wasn't accurate. This movie is getting heat from the
general public, people who don't sympathize with a
foreign "epic" like this because they're not familiar
with the culture, and people like yourselves, who
conversly seem to know a little bit too much about the
culture to be able to enjoy the middle ground that the
film maker was probably trying to obtain for both
sides to be able to enjoy.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I became
interested in romantic visions of honor back when I
was a child. I think it's important to know the truth
about things, but not to let it destroy your sense of
romance.

--- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:
> Kyle Segall wrote:
>
>
> > I dunno Tony, I mean, come on, are you going to
> hate Star Wars just
> > because lightsabers and hyperspace and sound in
> space are all
> > impossible?
>
> Surely you aren't comparing SF/fantasy to historical
> epics...
>
> > It bugs me too when people take stuff like
> Highlander
> > and the Last Samurai and Glory and are suddendly
> historical experts.
> > But there's something to fantasy and fiction, and
> I mean, Braveheart
> > and The Last Samurai, while being historically
> innaccurate, are
> > pretty good movies.
>
> Perhaps, but not enough people *get it* that they're
> just movies.
>
> Tony
>
>


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[Previous #2811] [Next #2817]

#2817 [2003-12-10 19:40:05]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: are there still samurai

by cepooooo

On Dec 10, 2003, at 12:22 PM, Anthony J. Bryant wrote:

>
> (cut) "Braveheart" masquerades as history, as does "Last Samurai."
>
> Ick.
>
> Tony

Ok Tony, but why do you think so? The only "historical" character in
TLS is, well... the Emperor. For the rest, it's all utter fiction, with
no real names, no real places and a Tom Cruise thrown into a small
Japanese village. I do not really see where TLS demands to be
accurately historical. I have never read on the website, or in any
interview to the movie crew they wanted to be historically fit. That
would have been impossible, as there are no records of Little Big Horn
veterans fighting with the samurai in the 1870's. I mean: what's the
problem in admitting it is simply entertaining historical fiction, and
amen?
cepo



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #2813] [Next #2819]

#2819 [2003-12-10 14:51:15]

Re: are there still samurai

by klancesegall

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony J. Bryant"
wrote:
> Kyle Segall wrote:
>
>
> > I dunno Tony, I mean, come on, are you going to hate Star Wars
just
> > because lightsabers and hyperspace and sound in space are all
> > impossible?
>
> Surely you aren't comparing SF/fantasy to historical epics...

Heh, no, Im just saying for someone with historical knowledge to
hate a movie for its historical innacuraccies would be like a rocket
scientist hating star wars for these reasons.

>
> > It bugs me too when people take stuff like Highlander
> > and the Last Samurai and Glory and are suddendly historical
experts.
> > But there's something to fantasy and fiction, and I mean,
Braveheart
> > and The Last Samurai, while being historically innaccurate, are
> > pretty good movies.
>
> Perhaps, but not enough people *get it* that they're just movies.
>
> Tony

Fair enough... still, its not always the movie's fault. some people
are just too lazy to research the truth, and thats THEIR fault.

[Previous #2817] [Next #2826]

#2826 [2003-12-11 01:32:51]

Re: are there still samurai

by the_real_sixstringsamurai

Okay granted that the characters were not real. But the event did
actually happen. Where a last bastion of samurai face up against the
modern japanese army. The battle was called the gunpowder or
gunpowder keg rebellion. I don't know the exact year it happen but,
what the movie was trying to portray historically accurate was the
gunpowder or gunpowder keg rebellion.

[Previous #2819] [Next #2829]

#2829 [2003-12-11 09:58:50]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: are there still samurai

by goodfella26426

--

--------- Original Message ---------
DATE: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 17:24:54
From: "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...>
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Cc:


Kyle Segall wrote:


> I dunno Tony, I mean, come on, are you going to hate Star Wars just
> because lightsabers and hyperspace and sound in space are all
> impossible?

Surely you aren't comparing SF/fantasy to historical epics...

> It bugs me too when people take stuff like Highlander
> and the Last Samurai and Glory and are suddendly historical experts.
> But there's something to fantasy and fiction, and I mean, Braveheart
> and The Last Samurai, while being historically innaccurate, are
> pretty good movies.

Perhaps, but not enough people *get it* that they're just movies.

Tony
Dude, sounds like you need to get that its jsut a movie and drop it. I signed up here to learn, not listen to bitch fests about how much hollywood sucks.. at this rate your gonna die of a heart attack b4 your next birthday.. chill man..
Wilson



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[Previous #2826] [Next #2830]

#2830 [2003-12-11 13:24:20]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: are there still samurai

by sengokudaimyo

the_real_sixstringsamurai wrote:

> Okay granted that the characters were not real. But the event did
> actually happen. Where a last bastion of samurai face up against the
> modern japanese army. The battle was called the gunpowder or
> gunpowder keg rebellion. I don't know the exact year it happen but,
> what the movie was trying to portray historically accurate was the
> gunpowder or gunpowder keg rebellion.

Off the top of my head, I don't believe I've ever heard of such a thing...

Tony

[Previous #2829] [Next #2832]

#2832 [2003-12-11 13:11:43]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: are there still samurai

by sengokudaimyo

Josh Wilson wrote:


> Tony Dude, sounds like you need to get that its jsut a movie and drop it. I
> signed up here to learn, not listen to bitch fests about how much hollywood
> sucks.. at this rate your gonna die of a heart attack b4 your next birthday..
> chill man..

Surely you've noticed that I'm *not* ranting.

I'm stating *my opinion* of the film, and the reason *I* find fault in it. Given
that the movie is nominally on-topic here, why should only "hey, it's great!"
opinions be the only ones tolerated?

It's not that important a thing to me. Really. Most of the time I don't give it
a second thought, and only do when someone starts on about it.

Tony

[Previous #2830] [Next #2835]

#2835 [2003-12-11 17:03:42]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: are there still samurai

by ltdomer98

--- Cesare Polenghi <cepo@...> wrote:
> On Dec 10, 2003, at 12:22 PM, Anthony J. Bryant
I
> mean: what's the
> problem in admitting it is simply entertaining
> historical fiction, and
> amen?
> cepo


The problem isn't on our end. It's with the endless
string of knuckleheads who will take it as history
rather than fiction, who bleed Hagakure, who think
they can BE samurai, since Tom Cruise was one. That's
the problem.

Nate

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#2836 [2003-12-11 14:32:38]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: are there still samurai

by cepooooo

On Dec 11, 2003, at 11:24 AM, Anthony J. Bryant wrote:

> the_real_sixstringsamurai wrote:
>
> > Okay granted that the characters were not real. But the event did
> > actually happen. Where a last bastion of samurai face up against the
> > modern japanese army. The battle was called the gunpowder or
> > gunpowder keg rebellion. I don't know the exact year it happen but,
> > what the movie was trying to portray historically accurate was the
> > gunpowder or gunpowder keg rebellion.
>
> Off the top of my head, I don't believe I've ever heard of such a
> thing...
>
> Tony

Yep... me neither... errrrrr...
cepo


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #2835] [Next #2837]

#2837 [2003-12-11 19:21:10]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: are there still samurai

by soshuju

Craz-
> I don't know about the rest of you, but I became
> interested in romantic visions of honor back when I
> was a child.  I think it's important to know the truth
> about things, but not to let it destroy your sense of
> romance.
>
>

What gets our goat is that the actual History is so much cooler and
more exciting, and more romantic than anything cooked up by the pool in
So.Cal. This begs the question; Why can't they get history right? Why
does there seem to be some aversion to an honest history? Is it that
history is too difficult to pin down? Is it too difficult for Hollywood
writers?(Afterall REAL writers don't go Hollywood) Are they really a
propaganda factory and they have to build in a message?
How is it the BBC seems able to pull it off, and the NHK albeit
whitewashed (and they seem to be going the way of Hollywood...)
I seriously feel like I am missing something sometimes. Is ignorance
truly bliss?
-t

[Previous #2836] [Next #2842]

#2842 [2003-12-11 18:26:31]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: are there still samurai

by cepooooo

I wouln't worry too much about them: they will be gone as soon as LOTR
III hits the screens, and, in the worst case, we will be saved by
Spiderman 2. :o)
cepo

On Dec 11, 2003, at 3:03 PM, Nate Ledbetter wrote:

>
> The problem isn't on our end. It's with the endless
> string of knuckleheads who will take it as history
> rather than fiction, who bleed Hagakure, who think
> they can BE samurai, since Tom Cruise was one. That's
> the problem.
>
> Nate
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #2837] [Next #2854]

#2854 [2003-12-12 10:38:22]

RE: [samuraihistory] Re: are there still samurai

by matthewhoyle2000

What was the gunpowder or gunpowder keg rebellion? Does anyone have any
references to this ?

- Matt




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-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Cesare Polenghi [mailto:cepo@...]
Verzonden: donderdag 11 december 2003 23:33
Aan: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: are there still samurai



On Dec 11, 2003, at 11:24 AM, Anthony J. Bryant wrote:

> the_real_sixstringsamurai wrote:
>
> > Okay granted that the characters were not real. But the event did
> > actually happen. Where a last bastion of samurai face up against the
> > modern japanese army. The battle was called the gunpowder or
> > gunpowder keg rebellion. I don't know the exact year it happen but,
> > what the movie was trying to portray historically accurate was the
> > gunpowder or gunpowder keg rebellion.
>
> Off the top of my head, I don't believe I've ever heard of such a
> thing...
>
> Tony

Yep... me neither... errrrrr...
cepo


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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