Re: "The Last Samurai"

Captain Marshall Lilly,

The story IS loosely based on history. Katsumoto is supposed to represent Saigo Takamori.
Check out this site:

http://www.emory.edu/HISTORY/RAVINA/lastsamurai.html

You said, "the way of the samurai and all was working just fine! Why were they trying to
become so modern???" Here's an answer:

The samurai were feudal warriors... basically Japanese fighting other Japanese, hidden behind
a curtain of isolationism. Well, the long-practiced isolationism ended with the intrusion of
Perry's ships. When that curtain fell, Japan saw a bigger world with a lot of potential enemies.
Japan realized it could not defend itself. Japan had to unify and modernize in order to defend
itself from invasion. The samurai tactics of war were well-suited for fighting other sword-bearing
foes on the island of Japan. But if could do very little against a navy fleet.
The Japanese were no longer concerned with how to defend themselves from other Japanese.
They had to know how to defend themselves from everybody else. Emperor Meiji simply
responded to the impetus of potential attack from other nations.

Speaking of Saigo Takamori - did anyone ever see his photo? He
looks amost exactly like Sumo wrestler Musashimaru.

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, golfmandan@a... wrote:
> Captain Marshall Lilly,
>
> The story IS loosely based on history. Katsumoto is supposed to
represent Saigo Takamori.
> Check out this site:
>
> http://www.emory.edu/HISTORY/RAVINA/lastsamurai.html
>
> You said, "the way of the samurai and all was working just fine!
Why were they trying to
> become so modern???" Here's an answer:
>
> The samurai were feudal warriors... basically Japanese fighting
other Japanese, hidden behind
> a curtain of isolationism. Well, the long-practiced isolationism
ended with the intrusion of
> Perry's ships. When that curtain fell, Japan saw a bigger world
with a lot of potential enemies.
> Japan realized it could not defend itself. Japan had to unify and
modernize in order to defend
> itself from invasion. The samurai tactics of war were well-suited
for fighting other sword-bearing
> foes on the island of Japan. But if could do very little against a
navy fleet.
> The Japanese were no longer concerned with how to defend
themselves from other Japanese.
> They had to know how to defend themselves from everybody else.
Emperor Meiji simply
> responded to the impetus of potential attack from other nations.

I'd like to add my 2 cents worth. The Imperial government in the 1870s
abolished the hereditary samurai privileges. They also stopped paying the annual
stipend that every samurai received (the government did make a one time
payment).

Worst of all, from the samurai viewpoint, the Imperial government started
recruiting peasants into the military. This had been the sacred province of the
samurai for centuries.

The samurai couldn't stand the changes that were leaving them behind, so they
rebelled (I should add that not all samurai rebelled. The Tokyo policemen
were former samurai and fought with the government forces against the rebels).

The samurai were fighting for their honor, their privileges, and for their
way of life.

Bob Burke



In a message dated 12/5/03 9:56:18 PM, golfmandan@... writes:

<< Captain Marshall Lilly,

The story IS loosely based on history. Katsumoto is supposed to represent
Saigo Takamori.
Check out this site:

http://www.emory.edu/HISTORY/RAVINA/lastsamurai.html

You said, "the way of the samurai and all was working just fine! Why were
they trying to
become so modern???" Here's an answer:

The samurai were feudal warriors... basically Japanese fighting other
Japanese, hidden behind
a curtain of isolationism. Well, the long-practiced isolationism ended with
the intrusion of
Perry's ships. When that curtain fell, Japan saw a bigger world with a lot of
potential enemies.
Japan realized it could not defend itself. Japan had to unify and modernize
in order to defend
itself from invasion. The samurai tactics of war were well-suited for
fighting other sword-bearing
foes on the island of Japan. But if could do very little against a navy
fleet.
The Japanese were no longer concerned with how to defend themselves from
other Japanese.
They had to know how to defend themselves from everybody else. Emperor Meiji
simply
responded to the impetus of potential attack from other nations.



Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
---
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




----------------------- Headers --------------------------------
Return-Path:
aol.com@...>
Received: from rly-yb06.mx.aol.com (rly-yb06.mail.aol.com [172.18.146.10])
by air-yb02.mail.aol.com (v97.10) with ESMTP id MAILINYB23-6963fd16f7923f; Sat,
06 Dec 2003 00:56:17 -0500
Received: from n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.71])
by rly-yb06.mx.aol.com (v97.10) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINYB64-6963fd16f7923f;
Sat, 06 Dec 2003 00:56:09 -0500
X-eGroups-Return:
sentto-2247946-2655-1070690122-burker1=aol.com@...
Received: from [66.218.66.156] by n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Dec
2003 05:55:22 -0000
Received: (qmail 12522 invoked by uid 7800); 6 Dec 2003 05:55:21 -0000
X-Sender: golfmandan@...
X-Apparently-To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Received: (qmail 68186 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2003 05:28:02 -0000
Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166)
by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2003 05:28:02 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net) (204.127.131.115)
by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2003 05:28:03 -0000
Received: from 204.127.135.29 ([204.127.135.29])
by worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc11) with SMTP
id <2003120605254711100ht9a2e>; Sat, 6 Dec 2003 05:25:47 +0000
Received: from [67.248.208.216] by 204.127.135.29;
Sat, 06 Dec 2003 05:25:46 +0000
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Message-Id: <120620030525.2593.47ca@...>
X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Oct 10 2003)
X-Authenticated-Sender: Z29sZm1hbmRhbkBhdHQubmV0
X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 204.127.131.115
From: golfmandan@...
X-Yahoo-Profile: twheels2many
X-eGroups-Approved-By: kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...> via
email; 6 Dec 2003 05:55:21 -0000
MIME-Version: 1.0
Mailing-List: list samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com; contact
samuraihistory-owner@yahoogroups.com
Delivered-To: mailing list samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Precedence: bulk
List-Unsubscribe: samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 05:25:46 +0000
Subject: [samuraihistory] Re: "The Last Samurai"
Reply-To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-AOL-IP: 66.218.66.71
X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 1:XXX:XX
X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 2

>>

On Dec 5, 2003, at 8:17 PM, burker1@... wrote:

> I'd like to add my 2 cents worth.  The Imperial government in the 1870s
> abolished the hereditary samurai privileges.  They also stopped paying
> the annual
> stipend that every samurai received (the government did make a one time
> payment).
>
> Worst of all, from the samurai viewpoint, the Imperial government
> started
> recruiting peasants into the military.  This had been the sacred
> province of the
> samurai for centuries.
>
> The samurai couldn't stand the changes that were leaving them behind,
> so they
> rebelled (I should add that not all samurai rebelled.  The Tokyo
> policemen
> were former samurai and fought with the government forces against the
> rebels).
>
> The samurai were fighting for their honor, their privileges, and for
> their
> way of life.
>
> Bob Burke

One more cent... :o)
The majority of the samurai were broke. In fact, the salary of the
low-ranks samurai barely sufficed to survive--that's wahy so many of
them had to sell their beloved swords (sigh). How ironic: they were
supposedly on top of the Tokugawa hierarchy, and by the 19th c. they
were the poorest of the four medieval classes, making much less than
artisans, merchants, and often even less than farmers.
No surprise they were pissed off.
Of course the samurai ideology played its role, but I believe economic
reasons were important as well. They were angry, and hungry too.
cepo, honolulu


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Which is perhaps the reason he is affectionately called "Saigo-san"　by
other rikishi.

A quarter?
Yes, they rebelled because they were poor and hungry.
But, it was not an event that characterized the change
in the traditional Japanese social system.
It was rather limited modification to their existing
social structure schematized by one groups of
samurais(nobles) against the other.
Meiji restoration was possible only through some
samurai groups. Those who suppresed brutally other
rebelling samurais were also samurais.

A real social change did not mature to exist until
General MacArthur passed the land reform bill after
World War Two...

> One more cent... :o)
> The majority of the samurai were broke. In fact, the
> salary of the
> low-ranks samurai barely sufficed to survive--that's
> wahy so many of
> them had to sell their beloved swords (sigh). How
> ironic: they were
> supposedly on top of the Tokugawa hierarchy, and by
> the 19th c. they
> were the poorest of the four medieval classes,
> making much less than
> artisans, merchants, and often even less than
> farmers.
> No surprise they were pissed off.
> Of course the samurai ideology played its role, but
> I believe economic
> reasons were important as well. They were angry, and
> hungry too.
> cepo, honolulu
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree