TACHI

I've been wondering about the Tachi, its different from the usual
katana type sword. And bit elegant too in terms of looks. Can Tachi
be used in fights? And the timeline of the tachi co-existed with the
Katana or it came after the Katana?

Syuan,

The tachi was worn slung from the waist edge down and was in practical
use from ca 900 - 1600. It was used for fighting on horseback.

The katana is worn edge up in the sash round the Samurai's middle and
was used from ca. 1400 - 1876. This was used for ground combat.

There is some overlap in when they were used.

Matthew






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-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Syun Ukiya [mailto:squartzph@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 18 november 2003 2:32
Aan: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Onderwerp: [samuraihistory] TACHI


I've been wondering about the Tachi, its different from the usual
katana type sword. And bit elegant too in terms of looks. Can Tachi
be used in fights? And the timeline of the tachi co-existed with the
Katana or it came after the Katana?




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

All I know is thi chi swords can't be used in fights becus thare to
flmese

What on earth *ARE* you talking about ?

Matthew




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-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: gokon2003 [mailto:gokon2003@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 18 november 2003 17:36
Aan: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Onderwerp: [samuraihistory] Re: TACHI


All I know is thi chi swords can't be used in fights becus thare to
flmese



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes, the tachi can be used in fights.. it was originally developed as a cavalry sword.. the longer blade and more pronounced curve were designed to be used form horseback.. much like the western examples of a saber in comparisson to the rapier.. the tachi was worn blade down whereas the katana was worn blade up.. the difference was that when you drew the tachi from horseback, the first draw would be a slice.. and the katana's first draw would be a slice as well, if worn blade down.. as far as dates, it seems that the tachi may be a predeccessor to the katana, but I am NOT sure..

Wilson


--

--------- Original Message ---------
DATE: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 01:31:43
From: "Syun Ukiya" <squartzph@...>
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Cc:

I've been wondering about the Tachi, its different from the usual
katana type sword. And bit elegant too in terms of looks. Can Tachi
be used in fights? And the timeline of the tachi co-existed with the
Katana or it came after the Katana?



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Josh Wilson wrote:

> Yes, the tachi can be used in fights.. it was originally developed as a
> cavalry sword.. the longer blade and more pronounced curve were designed to
> be used form horseback.. much like the western examples of a saber in
> comparisson to the rapier.. the tachi was worn blade down whereas the katana
> was worn blade up.. the difference was that when you drew the tachi from
> horseback, the first draw would be a slice.. and the katana's first draw
> would be a slice as well, if worn blade down.. as far as dates, it seems that
> the tachi may be a predeccessor to the katana, but I am NOT sure..

There's much more to it that this.

The old court swords were tachi. For a long time, "tachi" seems to have been the
generic word for sword. It wasn't until much later (probably no earlier than the
15th C.) that the samaurai began to wear upside-down swords thrust through their
sashes like they occasionally did with shorter weapons.

Tony

Does anyone know how the term tachi relates to the term tai chi in refference to the ancient straight, double edged swords they adopted from China??

Wilson


--

--------- Original Message ---------
DATE: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 14:26:23
From: "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...>
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Cc:

Josh Wilson wrote:

> Yes, the tachi can be used in fights.. it was originally developed as a
> cavalry sword.. the longer blade and more pronounced curve were designed to
> be used form horseback.. much like the western examples of a saber in
> comparisson to the rapier.. the tachi was worn blade down whereas the katana
> was worn blade up.. the difference was that when you drew the tachi from
> horseback, the first draw would be a slice.. and the katana's first draw
> would be a slice as well, if worn blade down.. as far as dates, it seems that
> the tachi may be a predeccessor to the katana, but I am NOT sure..

There's much more to it that this.

The old court swords were tachi. For a long time, "tachi" seems to have been the
generic word for sword. It wasn't until much later (probably no earlier than the
15th C.) that the samaurai began to wear upside-down swords thrust through their
sashes like they occasionally did with shorter weapons.

Tony


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Josh Wilson wrote:

> Does anyone know how the term tachi relates to the term tai chi in refference
> to the ancient straight, double edged swords they adopted from China??

It doesn't.


Tony

Mr. Wilson,

The katana does not need to be worn ha (blade) down in order to cut on the
draw, this would actually be a bad thing to do. The sword styles that fall
under the influence of Iaido/jutsu and battoudo/jutsu wear the katana ha up
and base their main premise on a simultaneous draw and cut, called battou.
The construction of the saya (sheath) for most katana is of wood and if the
katana was drawn ha down it would split the saya and cut open the users
hand. The metalic construction and/or reinforcement of the tachi saya
allowed for that blade to be drawn ha downward.
I hope this was helped somehow.


Matt Williams

>Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 10:31:08 -0500
> From: "Josh Wilson" <lordwilson@...>
>Subject: Re: TACHI
>
>Yes, the tachi can be used in fights.. it was originally developed as a
>cavalry sword.. the longer blade and more pronounced curve were designed to
>be used form horseback.. much like the western examples of a saber in
>comparisson to the rapier.. the tachi was worn blade down whereas the
>katana was worn blade up.. the difference was that when you drew the tachi
>from horseback, the first draw would be a slice.. and the katana's first
>draw would be a slice as well, if worn blade down.. as far as dates, it
>seems that the tachi may be a predeccessor to the katana, but I am NOT
>sure..
>
>Wilson
>

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It doesn't.

Nate

--- Josh Wilson <lordwilson@...> wrote:

> Does anyone know how the term tachi relates to the
> term tai chi in refference to the ancient straight,
> double edged swords they adopted from China??
>
> Wilson
>
>
> --
>
> --------- Original Message ---------
> DATE: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 14:26:23
> From: "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...>
> To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Cc:
>
> Josh Wilson wrote:
>
> > Yes, the tachi can be used in fights.. it was
> originally developed as a
> > cavalry sword.. the longer blade and more
> pronounced curve were designed to
> > be used form horseback.. much like the western
> examples of a saber in
> > comparisson to the rapier.. the tachi was worn
> blade down whereas the katana
> > was worn blade up.. the difference was that when
> you drew the tachi from
> > horseback, the first draw would be a slice.. and
> the katana's first draw
> > would be a slice as well, if worn blade down.. as
> far as dates, it seems that
> > the tachi may be a predeccessor to the katana, but
> I am NOT sure..
>
>
> There's much more to it that this.
>
> The old court swords were tachi. For a long time,
> "tachi" seems to have been the
> generic word for sword. It wasn't until much later
> (probably no earlier than the
> 15th C.) that the samaurai began to wear upside-down
> swords thrust through their
> sashes like they occasionally did with shorter
> weapons.
>
> Tony
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> ---
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> Terms of Service.
>
>
>

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>
>

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Syun et al-

Short answer; Tachi preceeded katana and yes they werre very much
fighting weapons.
Tachi when used among students of the sword is a specific term used to
describe single edged, usually curved Japanese sword worn hung from the
waist. It developed from straight Chinese and Korean models imported
from the continent. All of which were fighting weapons.
There is debate about the use of the tachi, I fall in the camp that
feels it took on its unique shape to meet the rigors of mounted combat.
If we examine the small points of these swords I think it is clear they
were not used much for thrusting. Rather they were for slashing from
horseback at armours made primarily of heavy silk. At the time the bow
was the premier weapon and the sword was a side arm resorted to after
all arrows had been exhausted.
We imagine it to have been developed in the tenth century(or perhaps
earlier) and by the 1100's was in use by the bushi class all over
Japan. After the shock of the Mongol invasions, points became stouter
austensibly because thrusting techniques became more prevalent. Then
the whole sword took on grand proportions. Not long after the katana
came a long but it was in the mid to late Muromachi that it became the
sidearm of choice. The tachi continued to be worn by cavalry and in the
Azuchi-Momoyama we see fighting generals carrying tachi made famous in
the days of Yoritomo.
For example Uesugi Kenshin and Akechi Mitsuhide were known to favor
Bizen Nagamitsu, considered by many to be the top smith from that part
of the country known as "the sword capitol" of Japan. Edo period
shoguns wore tachi for ceremonial and to this day we see them worn by
enthusiasts of Yabusame, which is itself the kind of training a
Kamakura samurai would pursue...
-t

Yes, for the katana, that is the case, but for a tachi, being up hiegher on a horse, the tachi was worn blade down to make the first draw of the sword a slice.. Plz re-read my earlier post...

Wilson


--

--------- Original Message ---------
DATE: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 14:53:46
From: "M. R. Williams" <amacobra@...>
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Cc:

Mr. Wilson,

The katana does not need to be worn ha (blade) down in order to cut on the
draw, this would actually be a bad thing to do. The sword styles that fall
under the influence of Iaido/jutsu and battoudo/jutsu wear the katana ha up
and base their main premise on a simultaneous draw and cut, called battou.
The construction of the saya (sheath) for most katana is of wood and if the
katana was drawn ha down it would split the saya and cut open the users
hand. The metalic construction and/or reinforcement of the tachi saya
allowed for that blade to be drawn ha downward.
I hope this was helped somehow.


Matt Williams

>Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 10:31:08 -0500
> From: "Josh Wilson" <lordwilson@...>
>Subject: Re: TACHI
>
>Yes, the tachi can be used in fights.. it was originally developed as a
>cavalry sword.. the longer blade and more pronounced curve were designed to
>be used form horseback.. much like the western examples of a saber in
>comparisson to the rapier.. the tachi was worn blade down whereas the
>katana was worn blade up.. the difference was that when you drew the tachi
>from horseback, the first draw would be a slice.. and the katana's first
>draw would be a slice as well, if worn blade down.. as far as dates, it
>seems that the tachi may be a predeccessor to the katana, but I am NOT
>sure..
>
>Wilson
>

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mr. Wilson,

I think that, mayhaps, we are getting our signals crossed. I am not
meaning to argue against the mounted battou ability of the tachi, I was
trying to make a point about this statement:

"and the katana's first draw would be a slice as well, if worn blade down.."

I hope that helped to clarify thigs. My appologies for any
miscommunication.


Matt Williams

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Perhaps the tachi was worn edge down so as to make space for the bowstring to be drawn and released?
Just a thought I had, but I would think that a large katana tsuka would get in the way especially when shooting to your left,
but then again I could be wrong. Timewise the katana was replacing the tachi at the same time that the bow was falling out
of favor, thoughts anyone?

Dave Jackson

----- Original Message -----
From: Josh Wilson
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 7:31 AM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] TACHI


Yes, the tachi can be used in fights.. it was originally developed as a cavalry sword.. the longer blade and more pronounced curve were designed to be used form horseback.. much like the western examples of a saber in comparisson to the rapier.. the tachi was worn blade down whereas the katana was worn blade up.. the difference was that when you drew the tachi from horseback, the first draw would be a slice.. and the katana's first draw would be a slice as well, if worn blade down.. as far as dates, it seems that the tachi may be a predeccessor to the katana, but I am NOT sure..

Wilson


--

--------- Original Message ---------
DATE: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 01:31:43
From: "Syun Ukiya" <squartzph@...>
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Cc:

I've been wondering about the Tachi, its different from the usual
katana type sword. And bit elegant too in terms of looks. Can Tachi
be used in fights? And the timeline of the tachi co-existed with the
Katana or it came after the Katana?



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Oops!! Sorry bout that, a mistype.. Thanx for pointing that out.. :-)

Wilson


--

--------- Original Message ---------
DATE: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 02:19:56
From: "M. R. Williams" <amacobra@...>
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Cc:

Mr. Wilson,

I think that, mayhaps, we are getting our signals crossed. I am not
meaning to argue against the mounted battou ability of the tachi, I was
trying to make a point about this statement:

"and the katana's first draw would be a slice as well, if worn blade down.."

I hope that helped to clarify thigs. My appologies for any
miscommunication.


Matt Williams

_________________________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi

"and the katana's first draw would be a slice as well,
if worn blade down.."
Matt Williams

No matter which way the katana is worn, generally when
a katana is draw this is the first cut, be worn up
wards or downwards.

as the katana is generally worn cutting edge upwards,
it is turned in the belt 180 degrees prior to drawing
if you wish to cut upwards on the draw.

anyone in iaido or Iajutsu can confirm this.

Schools shuch as Kukishin ryu have no Iai, there
swordsmanship is started with the blade already drawn


paul

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Hi

there is one sword that is being missed here - the
Handachi.

the Tachi we all know was the sword of favour in the
say kamakura era etc, this then declined for the
katana with the tachi being used for court and high
rank etc etc and so one as already discussed in
several posts.

For those not familiar with the handachi - it has a
saya and tsuka as good as Identical to the tachi, but
the suspention rings on the saya are removed and the
sword is then thrust through the belt int he same way
as a Katana. Its involvement in the transision between
katana and Tachi i am not sure of.

we are also aware that in the early the days the
samurai were men of horse and the bow, this then with
time and change in the way battles were fought had the
samuari also go to fighting on foot, theref ore the
bow was reduced in status and corps of archers
appeared be it samurai or ashigaru. The Yari (spear)
then came into favour as the primary wepaon of choice
on the battle field. Of course when the fighting got
hand to hand the yari was of no use and then the sowrd
came into play.

In my martial arts training I do a lot of sword and in
my dojo we are currently doing Yari. I also own a suit
of armour which I train in occasionally. here are some
points I discovered when i first wore the armour.

the tachi is fine but to draw downwards when in arm
you have to bend a bit and the draw is slow. therefore
turning the sword cutting edge up the draw was faster
and the bending of the body removed.

the tachi when moving about a lot and especially when
running bangs up and down against you constantly. This
was annoying and you had to hold it if you wanted to
keep control of it

A katana is nice and tight to the body, much easier to
draw.

tachi work just fine two handed for those hwo have
never handled one.

Paul


--- Dave Jackson <nihontonut@...> wrote:

---------------------------------
Perhaps the tachi was worn edge down so as to make
space for the bowstring to be drawn and released?
Just a thought I had, but I would think that a large
katana tsuka would get in the way especially when
shooting to your left,
but then again I could be wrong. Timewise the katana
was replacing the tachi at the same time that the bow
was falling out
of favor, thoughts anyone?

Dave Jackson

----- Original Message -----
From: Josh Wilson
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 7:31 AM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] TACHI


Yes, the tachi can be used in fights.. it was
originally developed as a cavalry sword.. the longer
blade and more pronounced curve were designed to be
used form horseback.. much like the western examples
of a saber in comparisson to the rapier.. the tachi
was worn blade down whereas the katana was worn blade
up.. the difference was that when you drew the tachi
from horseback, the first draw would be a slice.. and
the katana's first draw would be a slice as well, if
worn blade down.. as far as dates, it seems that the
tachi may be a predeccessor to the katana, but I am
NOT sure..

Wilson


--

--------- Original Message ---------
DATE: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 01:31:43
From: "Syun Ukiya" <squartzph@...>
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Cc:

I've been wondering about the Tachi, its different
from the usual
katana type sword. And bit elegant too in terms of
looks. Can Tachi
be used in fights? And the timeline of the tachi
co-existed with the
Katana or it came after the Katana?



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'' the tachi is fine but to draw downwards when in arm
you have to bend a bit and the draw is slow''
Probably because the Tachi shape with its Koshizori was studied for
one-hand-drawing from horseback, avoiding the animal neck, and a little
before the reaching of the enemy, with no urge.

''A katana is nice and tight to the body, much easier to
draw''
By foot. Is the reason because of Katana replaced Tachi. In combat by
foot or duels the possibility to strike unsheating the blade was of
great advantage.

As per Handachi, I think it is a kind of blade mounting rather than a
different type of sword, generally remembering the Tachi's mounting
shape but a bit different, much less elegant, mostly used in Edo times.


-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Richardson Paul [mailto:umaryu@...]
Inviato: domenica 23 novembre 2003 10.12
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: Re: [samuraihistory] TACHI

Hi

there is one sword that is being missed here - the
Handachi.

the Tachi we all know was the sword of favour in the
say kamakura era etc, this then declined for the
katana with the tachi being used for court and high
rank etc etc and so one as already discussed in
several posts.

For those not familiar with the handachi - it has a
saya and tsuka as good as Identical to the tachi, but
the suspention rings on the saya are removed and the
sword is then thrust through the belt int he same way
as a Katana. Its involvement in the transision between
katana and Tachi i am not sure of.

we are also aware that in the early the days the
samurai were men of horse and the bow, this then with
time and change in the way battles were fought had the
samuari also go to fighting on foot, theref ore the
bow was reduced in status and corps of archers
appeared be it samurai or ashigaru. The Yari (spear)
then came into favour as the primary wepaon of choice
on the battle field. Of course when the fighting got
hand to hand the yari was of no use and then the sowrd
came into play.

In my martial arts training I do a lot of sword and in
my dojo we are currently doing Yari. I also own a suit
of armour which I train in occasionally. here are some
points I discovered when i first wore the armour.

the tachi is fine but to draw downwards when in arm
you have to bend a bit and the draw is slow. therefore
turning the sword cutting edge up the draw was faster
and the bending of the body removed.

the tachi when moving about a lot and especially when
running bangs up and down against you constantly. This
was annoying and you had to hold it if you wanted to
keep control of it

A katana is nice and tight to the body, much easier to
draw.

tachi work just fine two handed for those hwo have
never handled one.

Paul


--- Dave Jackson <nihontonut@...> wrote:

---------------------------------
Perhaps the tachi was worn edge down so as to make
space for the bowstring to be drawn and released?
Just a thought I had, but I would think that a large
katana tsuka would get in the way especially when
shooting to your left,
but then again I could be wrong. Timewise the katana
was replacing the tachi at the same time that the bow
was falling out
of favor, thoughts anyone?

Dave Jackson

----- Original Message -----
From: Josh Wilson
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 7:31 AM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] TACHI


Yes, the tachi can be used in fights.. it was
originally developed as a cavalry sword.. the longer
blade and more pronounced curve were designed to be
used form horseback.. much like the western examples
of a saber in comparisson to the rapier.. the tachi
was worn blade down whereas the katana was worn blade
up.. the difference was that when you drew the tachi
from horseback, the first draw would be a slice.. and
the katana's first draw would be a slice as well, if
worn blade down.. as far as dates, it seems that the
tachi may be a predeccessor to the katana, but I am
NOT sure..

Wilson


--

--------- Original Message ---------
DATE: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 01:31:43
From: "Syun Ukiya" <squartzph@...>
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Cc:

I've been wondering about the Tachi, its different
from the usual
katana type sword. And bit elegant too in terms of
looks. Can Tachi
be used in fights? And the timeline of the tachi
co-existed with the
Katana or it came after the Katana?



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Josh Wilson wrote:

>
> Yes, for the katana, that is the case, but for a tachi, being up hiegher on a horse, the tachi was worn blade down to make the first draw of the sword a slice.. Plz re-read my earlier post...

That really doesn't work. Try it.

Blade UP makes for a more immediate draw & slice.

The tachi is worn edge down because that's the way they *always* have
been worn, since the fifth century, before cavalry was an issue.

Tony

Mr. Wilson,

No problem. I am glad that we are on the same page now. My appologies
for any miscommunication.


Mr. Richardson,

It is possible to draw the blade in a battou type action and not cut.
Defensive battou techniques, such as intetcepting cuts or angled parrys,
come into play quite often in Iaido. As a general rule of thumb, according
to my Iaido sensei, if you are doing a single hand technique, especially one
from a draw, it is Iai. Once the second hand touches the tsuka (handle) is
becomes kenjutsu. Which separates schools like Kukishin Ryu from schools
like Muso Shinden Ryu.
For offensive battou techniques that do not involve a downward cut the
turning of the saya (sheath) is not done until the very last possible
moment. Partly to keep the side of the blade from being scratched up from
any dirt inside the saya (sheath) and also to keep the ha (cutting edge)
from splitting the saya.
I hope that this came off more as a response and not as an arguement.


Matt Williams

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The Blade up/ Blade down idea can be explained by the
drawing of the sword and the first strike. Face to
face, the draw becomes an over hand slice to the
opponents head. On horseback the opponent could be a
footmen thus lower than the rider. The initial draw
with the blade down would lead to a upward slice.

--- Dave Jackson <nihontonut@...> wrote:

> Perhaps the tachi was worn edge down so as to make
> space for the bowstring to be drawn and released?
> Just a thought I had, but I would think that a large
> katana tsuka would get in the way especially when
> shooting to your left,
> but then again I could be wrong. Timewise the katana
> was replacing the tachi at the same time that the
> bow was falling out
> of favor, thoughts anyone?
>
> Dave Jackson
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Josh Wilson
> To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 7:31 AM
> Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] TACHI
>
>
> Yes, the tachi can be used in fights.. it was
> originally developed as a cavalry sword.. the longer
> blade and more pronounced curve were designed to be
> used form horseback.. much like the western examples
> of a saber in comparisson to the rapier.. the tachi
> was worn blade down whereas the katana was worn
> blade up.. the difference was that when you drew the
> tachi from horseback, the first draw would be a
> slice.. and the katana's first draw would be a slice
> as well, if worn blade down.. as far as dates, it
> seems that the tachi may be a predeccessor to the
> katana, but I am NOT sure..
>
> Wilson
>
>
> --
>
> --------- Original Message ---------
> DATE: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 01:31:43
> From: "Syun Ukiya" <squartzph@...>
> To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Cc:
>
> I've been wondering about the Tachi, its different
> from the usual
> katana type sword. And bit elegant too in terms of
> looks. Can Tachi
> be used in fights? And the timeline of the tachi
> co-existed with the
> Katana or it came after the Katana?
>
>
>
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>
>
>

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Chris-
I am afraid I have to disagree, at the time the tachi was en vogue
there were few "ground troops" to cut at. For all we really know the
tachi was drawn blade up. What we know for sure is, it was worn blade
down. I believe they were edge down because the Chinese models they
were based on were all also worn edge down.
With the change to the katana the idea of "batto" has more credence.
Try walking ten or fifteen miles a day in Oyoroi with a sword banging
on your hip. Lash that same sword to your side with a wide sash, edge
up, and it carries itself. The katana can effectively draw and cut,
ground to sky as well as overhand when worn edge up. Still the single
hand "overhand" draw is common in many sword schools and it's speed and
effectiveness may indeed have been the main reason for the rise of the
Uchi-katana.
-t

I've drawn a katana less than 100 times in my life and that was years ago, so I'm
lost on the 'blade up / blade down' conversation -- I am picturing a katana or
whichever type of sword you choose on your left side, basically parallel to the
ground, with the handle protruding out in front of you (the way I was taught to
wear it). I take 'blade down' to mean that the cutting edge is facing the ground,
and is basically parallel to the ground. if you draw with your right hand, it
results in a fairly natural grip. If on the other hand, the sword is 'blade up',
that would mean to me that the cutting edge is 'up' and therefore facing the sky.
if that was the case, drawing with your right hand would force you to turn your
wrist up so that your fist is perpendicular to the ground, and your knuckles
are 'up' facing the sky. I think that would be very hard to draw that way, and to
do a cut off the draw like that would mean that you are slashing out in a circular
motion up-out-down, which would seem to me difficult to control due to the
position your wrist is in and the fact that the sword would be almost slingshotted
out of the sheath, whereas drawing the sword blade down (as I've described an
pictured it) results is an easily controlled and aimable strike. Would someone
like to describe the mechanics of katana-drawing for me? The way I was taught was
purely blade down.

-----Original Message-----
From: Anthony J. Bryant [mailto:ajbryant@...]
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2003 6:42 PM
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: TACHI


Josh Wilson wrote:

>
> Yes, for the katana, that is the case, but for a tachi, being up hiegher on a

horse, the tachi was worn blade down to make the first draw of the sword a slice..
Plz re-read my earlier post...

That really doesn't work. Try it.

Blade UP makes for a more immediate draw & slice.

The tachi is worn edge down because that's the way they *always* have
been worn, since the fifth century, before cavalry was an issue.

Tony

It seems blade up or down depends on how you wear the sword. The pictures of tachi that I've seen have a cord or string that makes the sword dangle from the waist. That makes it lower and more natural to draw with edge down. The katana is usually worn stuck into a sash with the handle pointing up at a slight angle. This would make it easier to be drawn with the edge up. All the samurai movies as well as the old engravings and artwork I've seen have the edge up on katanas, edge down with tachis.

----- Original Message -----
From: samurai-listowner@...
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 11:44 AM
Subject: [samuraihistory] Re: TACHI


I've drawn a katana less than 100 times in my life and that was years ago, so I'm
lost on the 'blade up / blade down' conversation -- I am picturing a katana or
whichever type of sword you choose on your left side, basically parallel to the
ground, with the handle protruding out in front of you (the way I was taught to
wear it). I take 'blade down' to mean that the cutting edge is facing the ground,
and is basically parallel to the ground. if you draw with your right hand, it
results in a fairly natural grip. If on the other hand, the sword is 'blade up',
that would mean to me that the cutting edge is 'up' and therefore facing the sky.
if that was the case, drawing with your right hand would force you to turn your
wrist up so that your fist is perpendicular to the ground, and your knuckles
are 'up' facing the sky. I think that would be very hard to draw that way, and to
do a cut off the draw like that would mean that you are slashing out in a circular
motion up-out-down, which would seem to me difficult to control due to the
position your wrist is in and the fact that the sword would be almost slingshotted
out of the sheath, whereas drawing the sword blade down (as I've described an
pictured it) results is an easily controlled and aimable strike. Would someone
like to describe the mechanics of katana-drawing for me? The way I was taught was
purely blade down.

-----Original Message-----
From: Anthony J. Bryant [mailto:ajbryant@...]
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2003 6:42 PM
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: TACHI


Josh Wilson wrote:
>
> Yes, for the katana, that is the case, but for a tachi, being up hiegher on a
horse, the tachi was worn blade down to make the first draw of the sword a slice..
Plz re-read my earlier post...

That really doesn't work. Try it.

Blade UP makes for a more immediate draw & slice.

The tachi is worn edge down because that's the way they *always* have
been worn, since the fifth century, before cavalry was an issue.

Tony







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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Since you're discussing different ways of carrying swords, could someone explain otoshi-zashi
(falling form)?

Going by the teachings of some superior powers in my
life, I've tried to stay out of this discussion as
long as possible, but I really have to ask at this
point.

Morihei Ueshiba only had 1/4 "samurai" blood in him
from his mother's side, far enough removed most would
say to not even mention. Yet one of the heaviest
parts of his philosophy was about being a samurai and
about practicioners of Aikido being modern day samurai
and so forth. I know that someone being old and wise
doesn't make them right, but would all the "There's no
such thing as a Samurai!" nay-sayers actually argue
with this? I know reading several books about
O-sensei, his word was enough for me to buy into the
whole "spirit" of the Samurai over the "title" of one.

There's many more examples, too. I mean, I certainly
wouldn't feel right going up to a family in modern day
Japan that actually had a direct father to son lineage
of "Samurai" blood and telling them that they weren't
a Samurai if they truely beleived they were. I think
they have more of a right to make that decission than
I do.

Finally, what of the Japanese emperor? Is he not
emperor only in title with no real depth other than a
"pre-dated" concept of an emperor in honor (a word I
stress the use of in this situation). If I'm correct,
what makes his title as emperor that much differant
than a nobleman's title of samurai?

I am 19 years old, full anglo-saxon decent as I've
noted already. I wake every morning and pray to MY
lord, Christ, and everynight before bed, on my knees,
seiza position. I practice kendo, kenjutsu, jiu
jitsu, aikido and am terribly interested in invovling
myself in kyudo and the use of japanese polearms. I
am pursuing a career in law enforcement and find
bushido to be an excellent basis for my career, and
most importantly my faith, my relationship with
Christ. But I am not a Samurai, just a 19 year old
geek that wishes he could have been. But who would
someone like I, no matter how well versed in history,
be to tell someone that they weren't a Samurai?

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Dear Craz:
Morihei Ueshiba chose to be a samura. You are
following Christ and ascethic life styles guideded by
Bushido. Yet, you did not choose to be a samurai.
You did not answer a question of whether there is a
true samurai in modern days...

--- CRAZ <crazoftheages@...> wrote:

> Morihei Ueshiba only had 1/4 "samurai" blood in him
> from his mother's side, far enough removed most
> would
> say to not even mention. Yet one of the heaviest
> parts of his philosophy was about being a samurai
> and
> about practicioners of Aikido being modern day
> samurai
> and so forth.


> I am 19 years old, full anglo-saxon decent as I've
> noted already. I wake every morning and pray to MY
> lord, Christ, and everynight before bed, on my
> knees,
> seiza position. I practice kendo, kenjutsu, jiu
> jitsu, aikido and am terribly interested in
> invovling
> myself in kyudo and the use of japanese polearms. I
> am pursuing a career in law enforcement and find
> bushido to be an excellent basis for my career, and
> most importantly my faith, my relationship with
> Christ. But I am not a Samurai,

__________________________________
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I guess I still don't get it, is my 'definition' of what I picture
to be "blade up/blade down" (in my original email) wrong?

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Richard S. Omura"
wrote:

> It seems blade up or down depends on how you wear the sword. The

pictures of tachi that I've seen have a cord or string that makes
the sword dangle from the waist. That makes it lower and more
natural to draw with edge down. The katana is usually worn stuck
into a sash with the handle pointing up at a slight angle. This
would make it easier to be drawn with the edge up. All the samurai
movies as well as the old engravings and artwork I've seen have the
edge up on katanas, edge down with tachis.

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: samurai-listowner@s...
> To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 11:44 AM
> Subject: [samuraihistory] Re: TACHI
>
>
> I've drawn a katana less than 100 times in my life and that was

years ago, so I'm

> lost on the 'blade up / blade down' conversation -- I am

picturing a katana or

> whichever type of sword you choose on your left side, basically

parallel to the

> ground, with the handle protruding out in front of you (the way

I was taught to

> wear it). I take 'blade down' to mean that the cutting edge is

facing the ground,

> and is basically parallel to the ground. if you draw with your

right hand, it

> results in a fairly natural grip. If on the other hand, the

sword is 'blade up',

> that would mean to me that the cutting edge is 'up' and

therefore facing the sky.

> if that was the case, drawing with your right hand would force

you to turn your

> wrist up so that your fist is perpendicular to the ground, and

your knuckles

> are 'up' facing the sky. I think that would be very hard to

draw that way, and to

> do a cut off the draw like that would mean that you are slashing

out in a circular

> motion up-out-down, which would seem to me difficult to control

due to the

> position your wrist is in and the fact that the sword would be

almost slingshotted

> out of the sheath, whereas drawing the sword blade down (as I've

described an

> pictured it) results is an easily controlled and aimable

strike. Would someone

> like to describe the mechanics of katana-drawing for me? The

way I was taught was

> purely blade down.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anthony J. Bryant [mailto:ajbryant@i...]
> Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2003 6:42 PM
> To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: TACHI
>
>
> Josh Wilson wrote:
> >
> > Yes, for the katana, that is the case, but for a tachi, being

up hiegher on a

> horse, the tachi was worn blade down to make the first draw of

the sword a slice..

> Plz re-read my earlier post...
>
> That really doesn't work. Try it.
>
> Blade UP makes for a more immediate draw & slice.
>
> The tachi is worn edge down because that's the way they *always*

have

> been worn, since the fifth century, before cavalry was an issue.
>
> Tony
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
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Service.

>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kitsuno et al-
Remember that the point of nukitsuke is to cut. Grab your handle with
a closed fist and draw with all your might, all your energy will be
dissipated before your blade gets near the target. Key to the draw is
relaxing the hand and applying your strength at the point of impact.
With blade up and fist clenched it is near impossible to draw the
sword. Open the fingers, draw with just your index finger and snap the
fingers shut after the kissaki clears the scabbard, thus focusing all
your power in the tip.
There are also no rules that say if it is worn blade up it has to be
drawn that way. a katana can easily be drawn blade down or "out", blade
and handle flat lay your open palm, knuckles down, on the tsuka,turn
the hand over and draw. Same applies to the tachi...
-t

What very little Iaido training Ive had, I was taught that as I grip the handle with my right hand, I grip the saya (sheath) w/ the left, and turn it slightly to the side, so that Im actually drawing the sword w/ the edge at about a 45 degree angle between the sky and the left side of the room..

Wilson


--

--------- Original Message ---------
DATE: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 23:02:13
From: Tom Helm <junkmail@...>
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Cc:

Kitsuno et al-
Remember that the point of nukitsuke is to cut. Grab your handle with
a closed fist and draw with all your might, all your energy will be
dissipated before your blade gets near the target. Key to the draw is
relaxing the hand and applying your strength at the point of impact.
With blade up and fist clenched it is near impossible to draw the
sword. Open the fingers, draw with just your index finger and snap the
fingers shut after the kissaki clears the scabbard, thus focusing all
your power in the tip.
There are also no rules that say if it is worn blade up it has to be
drawn that way. a katana can easily be drawn blade down or "out", blade
and handle flat lay your open palm, knuckles down, on the tsuka,turn
the hand over and draw. Same applies to the tachi...
-t


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I get my posts in daily digests (as well as it being Finals' Season
(TM)), so forgive me to be so late joining in, here. Also, I've yet
to read every last response, so pls also bear with me.

The question was if there are still samurai. The discussion quickly
established that the legal title of "samurai" was disestablished in
1870s legislation as part of both the Meiji Restoration and Japanese
modernization/westernization. I agree w/the others' in their
interpretation of the question as not addressing legal status, but as
an inquiry into the vitality of a concept of "samurai" embodied in
the way ppl lead their lives.

To me, in this light, asking if there are still samurai is a lot like
asking if there are still trees. (But how else does one learn?) I
suppose it does all depend on how you define a tree, but the point
remains and is even translingual: a rose is a rose, ne?

Ppl who wail about there "not being samurai" simply because some law
that is over a century old said so; when history, and the passage of
time, and sociology, and psychology, and simple reason tells us there
still are samurai have become far too attached to titles, and, I dare
say, it is good they don't call themselves samurai.

Even after that bit of legal history was put down, ppl still carried
their weaponry, they still applied themselves to a certain philosophy
of life, they still served masters, they still embraced death as a
part of life, they still pursued learning in many areas, both
concrete and abstract, in other words: the law did not "un-samurai"
them. Therefore, there are still samurai.

Giri

Stephanie wrote:

> Even after that bit of legal history was put down, ppl still carried
> their weaponry, they still applied themselves to a certain philosophy
> of life, they still served masters, they still embraced death as a
> part of life, they still pursued learning in many areas, both
> concrete and abstract, in other words: the law did not "un-samurai"
> them. Therefore, there are still samurai.

No, it means there are people who like to *pretend* to be samurai.


Tony

Mr. Wilson,

That is where the issue of differences between styles comes in. I train
in Muso Shinden Ryu and have been taught to keep the ha (cutting edge) up
until the last moment. This is partly to cut down on the noise that a
battou would cause and partly to cut down on any friction. Any sand or dirt
inside the saya would stratch up the side of the blade if it was drawn in
any manner besides ha up. Since blades, when properly on display, on shown
ha up with the tsuka (handle) to the left it would be displaying the side
that was getting scratched up.
This is just what I have been taught. Out of curiosity, what style of
Iaido did you study?


Peace,

Matt Williams

_________________________________________________________________
Cell phone �switch� rules are taking effect � find out more here.
http://special.msn.com/msnbc/consumeradvocate.armx

To be perfectly honest, Im not sure. I studied Aikido for a while when I was younger. I decided one day I wanted to pursue the sword, but my old sensei wasnt teaching any more. He worked at the Army Surplus store I frequent. So at night, I would take my sword there to the store and he would show me forms and katas and such. I havent studied very much. Hence why in one previous email I said "my very limited training". On a side note, Im working my way thru some books on the Eishin Ryu until I can find a sensei to start taking classes.
--

--------- Original Message ---------

DATE: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 19:26:12
From: "M. R. Williams" <amacobra@...>
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Cc:

>Mr. Wilson,
>
> That is where the issue of differences between styles comes in. I train
>in Muso Shinden Ryu and have been taught to keep the ha (cutting edge) up
>until the last moment. This is partly to cut down on the noise that a
>battou would cause and partly to cut down on any friction. Any sand or dirt
>inside the saya would stratch up the side of the blade if it was drawn in
>any manner besides ha up. Since blades, when properly on display, on shown
>ha up with the tsuka (handle) to the left it would be displaying the side
>that was getting scratched up.
> This is just what I have been taught. Out of curiosity, what style of
>Iaido did you study?
>
>
>Peace,
>
>Matt Williams
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Cell phone �switch� rules are taking effect � find out more here.
>http://special.msn.com/msnbc/consumeradvocate.armx
>
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Giri et al-
I am personally acquainted with folks in Japan who have practiced
their family craft for more than 20 generations. Under the Tokugawa and
earlier Shoguns they were privileged members of the Bakufu and their
status as "Bushi", unquestioned. Today they still carry on the family
traditions and live lives little changed from those earlier times.
There are other people who live austere lifestyles unchanged from
before the days of Ieyasu.
I am convinced that even though these people have the pedigree and
walk the walk ( and talk the talk...) they would never call themselves
"samurai" or more properly "Bushi". Were I to say "you ARE samurai",
they would politely laugh and correct me. There are no more "Samurai".
Keeping in mind the harsh reality that was pre-Modern Japan, I would
say that they are something much better...
-t

Josh-
I too am a student of Muso Jiki-den Eishin Ryu. If you would like help
finding a qualified Sensei in your area feel free to contact me off
list.
Tom

toryu@...