Saito Toshitada

Can someone tell me how Saito Toshitada - 斉藤利賢 - (father of
Saito Toshimitsu, and married to Akechi Mitsuhide's younger sister)
was related to Saito Dousan?

Thanks

Hey.
If memory serves, Saito Dosan was either an uncle to Toshitada or his
father. Somewhere, and I do not remember where, I thought I read that Saito
Dosan married his son to Akechi Mitsuhide's sister. But I do not recall
exactly if and where I read it. And it may have been that they were not related at
all -- just my faulty memory playing trix on me again. Hope this helps. :-)
Later.

Tim


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Wouldn't that have made for a significant age
difference, since Toshimitsu was considerably older
than Mitsuhide?

Nate

--- Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...>
wrote:

> Can someone tell me how Saito Toshitada - �������� -
> (father of
> Saito Toshimitsu, and married to Akechi Mitsuhide's
> younger sister)
> was related to Saito Dousan?
>
> Thanks
>
>

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
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might have -- remember, I was not and am not certain of my information. And
also, if memory serves, a "father-son" relationship then I don't think was
what it is now. A person could adopt anyone and call that person their son,
regardless of their age. Did not Nobunaga himself "adopt" someone at one point?
Like the "sister" that married Takeda Katsuyori? Just wondering. I'd like to
clear that issue up, now that it's been raised. :-) Thanks for any further
help! :-) Maybe it'll help in later writing. :-)

Tim


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Toshimitsu was 8 years younger than Mitsuhide. He was born in 1534,
Mitsuhide in 1526.... but what does that have to do with how his
father was related to Dousan...? You lost me....


--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
wrote:

> Wouldn't that have made for a significant age
> difference, since Toshimitsu was considerably older
> than Mitsuhide?
>
> Nate
>
> --- Kitsuno
> wrote:
> > Can someone tell me how Saito Toshitada - ﾀﾆﾆ｣ﾍ�ｸｭ -
> > (father of
> > Saito Toshimitsu, and married to Akechi Mitsuhide's
> > younger sister)
> > was related to Saito Dousan?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
> http://shopping.yahoo.com

wasn't talking age difference between the two men. I
meant between the guy and the bride. of course, that's
not that uncommon, just wondered.

Nate

--- Eponymous13@... wrote:

> might have -- remember, I was not and am not certain
> of my information. And
> also, if memory serves, a "father-son" relationship
> then I don't think was
> what it is now. A person could adopt anyone and
> call that person their son,
> regardless of their age. Did not Nobunaga himself
> "adopt" someone at one point?
> Like the "sister" that married Takeda Katsuyori?
> Just wondering. I'd like to
> clear that issue up, now that it's been raised. :-)
> Thanks for any further
> help! :-) Maybe it'll help in later writing. :-)
>
> Tim
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com

Now I get you. I don't know when Toshitada was born, so I couldn't
say.

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
wrote:

> wasn't talking age difference between the two men. I
> meant between the guy and the bride. of course, that's
> not that uncommon, just wondered.
>
> Nate
>
> --- Eponymous13@a... wrote:
> > might have -- remember, I was not and am not certain
> > of my information. And
> > also, if memory serves, a "father-son" relationship
> > then I don't think was
> > what it is now. A person could adopt anyone and
> > call that person their son,
> > regardless of their age. Did not Nobunaga himself
> > "adopt" someone at one point?
> > Like the "sister" that married Takeda Katsuyori?
> > Just wondering. I'd like to
> > clear that issue up, now that it's been raised. :-)
> > Thanks for any further
> > help! :-) Maybe it'll help in later writing. :-)
> >
> > Tim
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> > removed]
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
> http://shopping.yahoo.com

I meant between Toshitada and Mitsuhide's daughter.
Even if Toshimitsu is younger than Mitsuhide,
Toshitada would essentially be marrying someone the
age of his granddaughters, generationally speaking.
Again, not that it would be unheard of, just struck me
as odd. Has nothing to do with your question, didn't
mean to imply. Of that, I'm lacking in answers.

Nate

--- Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...>
wrote:

> Toshimitsu was 8 years younger than Mitsuhide. He
> was born in 1534,
> Mitsuhide in 1526.... but what does that have to do
> with how his
> father was related to Dousan...? You lost me....
>
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate
> Ledbetter
> wrote:
> > Wouldn't that have made for a significant age
> > difference, since Toshimitsu was considerably
> older
> > than Mitsuhide?
> >
> > Nate
> >
> > --- Kitsuno
> > wrote:
> > > Can someone tell me how Saito Toshitada -
> �������� -
> > > (father of
> > > Saito Toshimitsu, and married to Akechi
> Mitsuhide's
> > > younger sister)
> > > was related to Saito Dousan?
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product
> search
> > http://shopping.yahoo.com
>
>

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com

Oh -- Toshitada married Mitsuhide's younger sister, not his daughter.


--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
wrote:

> I meant between Toshitada and Mitsuhide's daughter.
> Even if Toshimitsu is younger than Mitsuhide,
> Toshitada would essentially be marrying someone the
> age of his granddaughters, generationally speaking.
> Again, not that it would be unheard of, just struck me
> as odd. Has nothing to do with your question, didn't
> mean to imply. Of that, I'm lacking in answers.
>
> Nate
>
> --- Kitsuno
> wrote:
> > Toshimitsu was 8 years younger than Mitsuhide. He
> > was born in 1534,
> > Mitsuhide in 1526.... but what does that have to do
> > with how his
> > father was related to Dousan...? You lost me....
> >
> >
> > --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate
> > Ledbetter
> > wrote:
> > > Wouldn't that have made for a significant age
> > > difference, since Toshimitsu was considerably
> > older
> > > than Mitsuhide?
> > >
> > > Nate
> > >
> > > --- Kitsuno
> > > wrote:
> > > > Can someone tell me how Saito Toshitada -
> > ﾀﾆﾆ｣ﾍ�ｸｭ -
> > > > (father of
> > > > Saito Toshimitsu, and married to Akechi
> > Mitsuhide's
> > > > younger sister)
> > > > was related to Saito Dousan?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product
> > search
> > > http://shopping.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
> http://shopping.yahoo.com

When did this marriage occur and how old was the bride? Those are the keys.

Tim


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ah ha....Naruhodo ne...


--- Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...>
wrote:

> Oh -- Toshitada married Mitsuhide's younger sister,
> not his daughter.
>
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate
> Ledbetter
> wrote:
> > I meant between Toshitada and Mitsuhide's
> daughter.
> > Even if Toshimitsu is younger than Mitsuhide,
> > Toshitada would essentially be marrying someone
> the
> > age of his granddaughters, generationally
> speaking.
> > Again, not that it would be unheard of, just
> struck me
> > as odd. Has nothing to do with your question,
> didn't
> > mean to imply. Of that, I'm lacking in answers.
> >
> > Nate
> >
> > --- Kitsuno
> > wrote:
> > > Toshimitsu was 8 years younger than Mitsuhide.
> He
> > > was born in 1534,
> > > Mitsuhide in 1526.... but what does that have to
> do
> > > with how his
> > > father was related to Dousan...? You lost
> me....
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate
> > > Ledbetter
> > > wrote:
> > > > Wouldn't that have made for a significant age
> > > > difference, since Toshimitsu was considerably
> > > older
> > > > than Mitsuhide?
> > > >
> > > > Nate
> > > >
> > > > --- Kitsuno
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > Can someone tell me how Saito Toshitada -
> > > �������� -
> > > > > (father of
> > > > > Saito Toshimitsu, and married to Akechi
> > > Mitsuhide's
> > > > > younger sister)
> > > > > was related to Saito Dousan?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > __________________________________
> > > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved
> product
> > > search
> > > > http://shopping.yahoo.com
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product
> search
> > http://shopping.yahoo.com
>
>

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com

and I'm assuming that Toshimitsu was NOT the result of
this marriage, right? That would really confuse me...I
know I'm not good with math, but...

Nate

--- Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...>
wrote:

> Oh -- Toshitada married Mitsuhide's younger sister,
> not his daughter.
>
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate
> Ledbetter
> wrote:
> > I meant between Toshitada and Mitsuhide's
> daughter.
> > Even if Toshimitsu is younger than Mitsuhide,
> > Toshitada would essentially be marrying someone
> the
> > age of his granddaughters, generationally
> speaking.
> > Again, not that it would be unheard of, just
> struck me
> > as odd. Has nothing to do with your question,
> didn't
> > mean to imply. Of that, I'm lacking in answers.
> >
> > Nate
> >
> > --- Kitsuno
> > wrote:
> > > Toshimitsu was 8 years younger than Mitsuhide.
> He
> > > was born in 1534,
> > > Mitsuhide in 1526.... but what does that have to
> do
> > > with how his
> > > father was related to Dousan...? You lost
> me....
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate
> > > Ledbetter
> > > wrote:
> > > > Wouldn't that have made for a significant age
> > > > difference, since Toshimitsu was considerably
> > > older
> > > > than Mitsuhide?
> > > >
> > > > Nate
> > > >
> > > > --- Kitsuno
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > Can someone tell me how Saito Toshitada -
> > > �������� -
> > > > > (father of
> > > > > Saito Toshimitsu, and married to Akechi
> > > Mitsuhide's
> > > > > younger sister)
> > > > > was related to Saito Dousan?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > __________________________________
> > > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved
> product
> > > search
> > > > http://shopping.yahoo.com
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product
> search
> > http://shopping.yahoo.com
>
>

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com

This is all I know:

Saito Toshitada married the daughter of Akechi Mitsutsuna (I.E.
Mitsukuni), who also happened to be Akechi Mitsuhide's father. I
don't have any dates for the births or deaths of the sister or
Toshitada, and the only reference I can find to him was the fact
that he was the father of Saito Toshimitsu and married to Akechi
Mitsuhide's younger sister. My Sengoku Samurai biographical
dictionary only lists him as Saito Toshimitsu's father. The Rekishi
Gunzo book on Akechi Mitsuhide has info on him in the Chosokabe
section, but I don't actually own that book, I just took some quick
notes out of it with my palm pilot at the Japanese bookstore (so if
anyone has it, take a look for me). I'm sure he is related to Saito
Dosan, but just not sure how, probably a son, but not sure.

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Eponymous13@a... wrote:
> When did this marriage occur and how old was the bride? Those are
the keys.
>
> Tim
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Okay now I see something. Would not Dosan and Toshitada have been about the
same age, so is it not then likely that they would be brothers or cousins?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Saito Toshimitsu was the son of Akechi Mitsuhide's younger sister
and Saito Toshitada.... well, that is what the sources say, but
you're right, the math doesn't make much sense, does it....

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
wrote:

> and I'm assuming that Toshimitsu was NOT the result of
> this marriage, right? That would really confuse me...I
> know I'm not good with math, but...
>
> Nate
>
> --- Kitsuno
> wrote:
> > Oh -- Toshitada married Mitsuhide's younger sister,
> > not his daughter.
> >
> >
> > --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate
> > Ledbetter
> > wrote:
> > > I meant between Toshitada and Mitsuhide's
> > daughter.
> > > Even if Toshimitsu is younger than Mitsuhide,
> > > Toshitada would essentially be marrying someone
> > the
> > > age of his granddaughters, generationally
> > speaking.
> > > Again, not that it would be unheard of, just
> > struck me
> > > as odd. Has nothing to do with your question,
> > didn't
> > > mean to imply. Of that, I'm lacking in answers.
> > >
> > > Nate
> > >
> > > --- Kitsuno
> > > wrote:
> > > > Toshimitsu was 8 years younger than Mitsuhide.
> > He
> > > > was born in 1534,
> > > > Mitsuhide in 1526.... but what does that have to
> > do
> > > > with how his
> > > > father was related to Dousan...? You lost
> > me....
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate
> > > > Ledbetter
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > Wouldn't that have made for a significant age
> > > > > difference, since Toshimitsu was considerably
> > > > older
> > > > > than Mitsuhide?
> > > > >
> > > > > Nate
> > > > >
> > > > > --- Kitsuno
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > Can someone tell me how Saito Toshitada -
> > > > ﾀﾆﾆ｣ﾍ�ｸｭ -
> > > > > > (father of
> > > > > > Saito Toshimitsu, and married to Akechi
> > > > Mitsuhide's
> > > > > > younger sister)
> > > > > > was related to Saito Dousan?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > __________________________________
> > > > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > > > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved
> > product
> > > > search
> > > > > http://shopping.yahoo.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product
> > search
> > > http://shopping.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
> http://shopping.yahoo.com

Now I'm confused - it says here in plain Japanese for Saito
Toshimitsu 'Toshitada's son, mother is akechi mitsuhide's younger
sister' It says he (Toshimitsu) was born in 1534. Now since
Mitsuhide was born in 1526, by the mathematics that would mean that
his 'younger' sister would have to be born after 1526, making her at
best 8 years old at the birth of her son Toshimitsu....

Can someone clear this all up?!?!


--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
wrote:

> and I'm assuming that Toshimitsu was NOT the result of
> this marriage, right? That would really confuse me...I
> know I'm not good with math, but...
>
> Nate
>
> --- Kitsuno
> wrote:
> > Oh -- Toshitada married Mitsuhide's younger sister,
> > not his daughter.
> >
> >
> > --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate
> > Ledbetter
> > wrote:
> > > I meant between Toshitada and Mitsuhide's
> > daughter.
> > > Even if Toshimitsu is younger than Mitsuhide,
> > > Toshitada would essentially be marrying someone
> > the
> > > age of his granddaughters, generationally
> > speaking.
> > > Again, not that it would be unheard of, just
> > struck me
> > > as odd. Has nothing to do with your question,
> > didn't
> > > mean to imply. Of that, I'm lacking in answers.
> > >
> > > Nate
> > >
> > > --- Kitsuno
> > > wrote:
> > > > Toshimitsu was 8 years younger than Mitsuhide.
> > He
> > > > was born in 1534,
> > > > Mitsuhide in 1526.... but what does that have to
> > do
> > > > with how his
> > > > father was related to Dousan...? You lost
> > me....
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate
> > > > Ledbetter
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > Wouldn't that have made for a significant age
> > > > > difference, since Toshimitsu was considerably
> > > > older
> > > > > than Mitsuhide?
> > > > >
> > > > > Nate
> > > > >
> > > > > --- Kitsuno
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > Can someone tell me how Saito Toshitada -
> > > > ﾀﾆﾆ｣ﾍ�ｸｭ -
> > > > > > (father of
> > > > > > Saito Toshimitsu, and married to Akechi
> > > > Mitsuhide's
> > > > > > younger sister)
> > > > > > was related to Saito Dousan?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > __________________________________
> > > > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > > > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved
> > product
> > > > search
> > > > > http://shopping.yahoo.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product
> > search
> > > http://shopping.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
> http://shopping.yahoo.com

Even if he is younger, 8 years younger...I guess if
his sister conceived at age 7...


--- Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...>
wrote:

> Saito Toshimitsu was the son of Akechi Mitsuhide's
> younger sister
> and Saito Toshitada.... well, that is what the
> sources say, but
> you're right, the math doesn't make much sense, does
> it....
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate
> Ledbetter
> wrote:
> > and I'm assuming that Toshimitsu was NOT the
> result of
> > this marriage, right? That would really confuse
> me...I
> > know I'm not good with math, but...
> >
> > Nate
> >
> > --- Kitsuno
> > wrote:
> > > Oh -- Toshitada married Mitsuhide's younger
> sister,
> > > not his daughter.
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate
> > > Ledbetter
> > > wrote:
> > > > I meant between Toshitada and Mitsuhide's
> > > daughter.
> > > > Even if Toshimitsu is younger than Mitsuhide,
> > > > Toshitada would essentially be marrying
> someone
> > > the
> > > > age of his granddaughters, generationally
> > > speaking.
> > > > Again, not that it would be unheard of, just
> > > struck me
> > > > as odd. Has nothing to do with your question,
> > > didn't
> > > > mean to imply. Of that, I'm lacking in
> answers.
> > > >
> > > > Nate
> > > >
> > > > --- Kitsuno
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > Toshimitsu was 8 years younger than
> Mitsuhide.
> > > He
> > > > > was born in 1534,
> > > > > Mitsuhide in 1526.... but what does that
> have to
> > > do
> > > > > with how his
> > > > > father was related to Dousan...? You lost
> > > me....
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate
> > > > > Ledbetter
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > Wouldn't that have made for a significant
> age
> > > > > > difference, since Toshimitsu was
> considerably
> > > > > older
> > > > > > than Mitsuhide?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Nate
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- Kitsuno
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > Can someone tell me how Saito Toshitada
> -
> > > > > �������� -
> > > > > > > (father of
> > > > > > > Saito Toshimitsu, and married to Akechi
> > > > > Mitsuhide's
> > > > > > > younger sister)
> > > > > > > was related to Saito Dousan?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > __________________________________
> > > > > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > > > > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved
> > > product
> > > > > search
> > > > > > http://shopping.yahoo.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > __________________________________
> > > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved
> product
> > > search
> > > > http://shopping.yahoo.com
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product
> search
> > http://shopping.yahoo.com
>
>

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com

no chance you're misreading "ane" as "imouto", is
there?

--- Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...>
wrote:

> Now I'm confused - it says here in plain Japanese
> for Saito
> Toshimitsu 'Toshitada's son, mother is akechi
> mitsuhide's younger
> sister' It says he (Toshimitsu) was born in 1534.
> Now since
> Mitsuhide was born in 1526, by the mathematics that
> would mean that
> his 'younger' sister would have to be born after
> 1526, making her at
> best 8 years old at the birth of her son
> Toshimitsu....
>
> Can someone clear this all up?!?!
>
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate
> Ledbetter
> wrote:
> > and I'm assuming that Toshimitsu was NOT the
> result of
> > this marriage, right? That would really confuse
> me...I
> > know I'm not good with math, but...
> >
> > Nate
> >
> > --- Kitsuno
> > wrote:
> > > Oh -- Toshitada married Mitsuhide's younger
> sister,
> > > not his daughter.
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate
> > > Ledbetter
> > > wrote:
> > > > I meant between Toshitada and Mitsuhide's
> > > daughter.
> > > > Even if Toshimitsu is younger than Mitsuhide,
> > > > Toshitada would essentially be marrying
> someone
> > > the
> > > > age of his granddaughters, generationally
> > > speaking.
> > > > Again, not that it would be unheard of, just
> > > struck me
> > > > as odd. Has nothing to do with your question,
> > > didn't
> > > > mean to imply. Of that, I'm lacking in
> answers.
> > > >
> > > > Nate
> > > >
> > > > --- Kitsuno
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > Toshimitsu was 8 years younger than
> Mitsuhide.
> > > He
> > > > > was born in 1534,
> > > > > Mitsuhide in 1526.... but what does that
> have to
> > > do
> > > > > with how his
> > > > > father was related to Dousan...? You lost
> > > me....
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate
> > > > > Ledbetter
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > Wouldn't that have made for a significant
> age
> > > > > > difference, since Toshimitsu was
> considerably
> > > > > older
> > > > > > than Mitsuhide?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Nate
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- Kitsuno
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > Can someone tell me how Saito Toshitada
> -
> > > > > �������� -
> > > > > > > (father of
> > > > > > > Saito Toshimitsu, and married to Akechi
> > > > > Mitsuhide's
> > > > > > > younger sister)
> > > > > > > was related to Saito Dousan?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > __________________________________
> > > > > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > > > > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved
> > > product
> > > > > search
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> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > __________________________________
> > > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved
> product
> > > search
> > > > http://shopping.yahoo.com
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product
> search
> > http://shopping.yahoo.com
>
>

__________________________________
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wow is this thread confusing or what???

I have the Rekishi Gunzo book on Akechi Mitsuhide, and here is what the
family tree on page 172-173 says;

Saito Toshitaka (not Toshitada; that's the way my Japanese shutome says its
pronounced) is married to an aunt Akechi, who is only identified as onna.
Her sister (and Akechi's aunt) Komigata is married to Saito Dosan. I guess
that would make Toshitada a kind of brother-in-law(?).

wasn't there a country music song about being your own
grandfather? This is heading that direction...

Nate

--- William&Mikiko Letham <mickey.letham@...>
wrote:

> wow is this thread confusing or what???
>
> I have the Rekishi Gunzo book on Akechi Mitsuhide,
> and here is what the
> family tree on page 172-173 says;
>
> Saito Toshitaka (not Toshitada; that's the way my
> Japanese shutome says its
> pronounced) is married to an aunt Akechi, who is
> only identified as onna.
> Her sister (and Akechi's aunt) Komigata is married
> to Saito Dosan. I guess
> that would make Toshitada a kind of
> brother-in-law(?).
>
>

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com

It's toshitada- it gives the furigana reading next to the family
tree in the 'chosokabe' section. if you have a scanner and could
scan those two pages, I'd be eternally grateful, too!

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "William&Mikiko Letham"
wrote:

> wow is this thread confusing or what???
>
> I have the Rekishi Gunzo book on Akechi Mitsuhide, and here is

what the

> family tree on page 172-173 says;
>
> Saito Toshitaka (not Toshitada; that's the way my Japanese shutome

says its

> pronounced) is married to an aunt Akechi, who is only identified

as onna.

> Her sister (and Akechi's aunt) Komigata is married to Saito Dosan.

I guess

> that would make Toshitada a kind of brother-in-law(?).

"Aunt" Akechi - meaning it says that it is akechi mitsuhide's aunt
who is married to Toshitada? My sengoku biographical dictionary
says it is Mitsuhide's younger (Imouto) sister. (making Toshimitsu
Mitsuhide's nephew) Like I said, if you've got a scanner.... I had
to take notes with my palm pilot at the bookstore. I can't afford
to spend $30 on what amounts to only 2 pages of info that I need!


--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "William&Mikiko Letham"
wrote:

> wow is this thread confusing or what???
>
> I have the Rekishi Gunzo book on Akechi Mitsuhide, and here is

what the

> family tree on page 172-173 says;
>
> Saito Toshitaka (not Toshitada; that's the way my Japanese shutome

says its

> pronounced) is married to an aunt Akechi, who is only identified

as onna.

> Her sister (and Akechi's aunt) Komigata is married to Saito Dosan.

I guess

> that would make Toshitada a kind of brother-in-law(?).

(of course there is always the chance that I copied info out of the
book completely incorrectly..!!)


--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "William&Mikiko Letham"
wrote:

> wow is this thread confusing or what???
>
> I have the Rekishi Gunzo book on Akechi Mitsuhide, and here is

what the

> family tree on page 172-173 says;
>
> Saito Toshitaka (not Toshitada; that's the way my Japanese shutome

says its

> pronounced) is married to an aunt Akechi, who is only identified

as onna.

> Her sister (and Akechi's aunt) Komigata is married to Saito Dosan.

I guess

> that would make Toshitada a kind of brother-in-law(?).

That's what it says. It lists 8 children to Mitsusugu, Mitsuhide's
grandfather. The second child ( it doesn't say if they are arranged by
age-or I am missing something) is 'onna' with to husbands Ishigai Tanba no
kami and Saito Toshitada (yes I did see the furigana on the other page-nasty
things those Kanji). Of course this only what this book says.

Sorry I don't have a scanner! I could photocopy them and mail you it. The
postage will probably be only about 110 yen. You can recompense with any
articles you have on 'The Last Samurai'.

This webpage:
http://mugen.where-i.net/rekisi/busyouroku/sbusyousa.html
(not that I believe everything I find on the net, of course) says
this about Toshimitsu: 父は斉藤利賢と言う。母は明智光秀の妹。
And this one:
http://homepage2.nifty.com/Masaka_HP/HOTOTO3.htm
says pretty much the same thing:
美濃斉藤家の末裔斉藤利賢の子。その母は光秀の妹とも言われる。
Which is also what my Sengoku biographical dictionary says - that
his mother was Mitsuhide's younger sister, and father was toshitada.
But like we've said before, the math doesn't make sense....


--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "William&Mikiko Letham"
wrote:

> That's what it says. It lists 8 children to Mitsusugu, Mitsuhide's
> grandfather. The second child ( it doesn't say if they are

arranged by

> age-or I am missing something) is 'onna' with to husbands Ishigai

Tanba no

> kami and Saito Toshitada (yes I did see the furigana on the other

page-nasty

> things those Kanji). Of course this only what this book says.
>
> Sorry I don't have a scanner! I could photocopy them and mail you

it. The

> postage will probably be only about 110 yen. You can recompense

with any

> articles you have on 'The Last Samurai'.

Well like I said this is only what the Rekishi Gunzo book says. I would be a
tad suspicious of most of those family trees. I have heard of many
inconsistencies and unresolved questions; for example; the mother of
Tokugawa Iesada-some people claim she was on orphan found on the street.
Remember most of these were compiled in the 17th century. Some were doctored
to create enhanced lineages to famous Samurai. Its not hard to believe,
before the event of modern genealogy, that some where slapped together
without being too careful of the facts. while others might have been
deliberately changed either to hide a skeleton in the closet (or take one
out in the case of the enemy.)