"Anachronistic" Samurai?

I read Helen McCullough's translation of the "Tale of the Heike"
(Genji War 1180-1185) and in the introductory notes, she claims the
title "samurai" is "anachronistic" for this period. Japanese
literature uses another word for these warriors; sabuto(sp?)

Can anyone explain to me why "samurai" is out of date for the late
twelve century? Its got me puzzled.

Thanks,

Scott Nicholas

'Samurai' as a title comes from the verb 'Saburau' (to serve) so presumably
the point being made is that these men were moving up in control rather than
being simply 'attendants' to the nobility at the time. Although I am
certainly not sure about this...Perhaps 'Samurai' should be applied to the
warriors of the Muromachi era onwards as their role here was clearly defined
as being 'Vassal' members of various clans, thus 'serving' rather than
'uprising' to control...But the point is uncertain. For me anyway! Sorry that
I could not be more help!

Hello,

Ihope that I can be of some help to you with a little
info.

Originally the warriors of ancient Japan went by many
different names as they became a military elite
serving a more ancient and august leadership(the
emperor). These elite warriors where called many
different things in many different records. The terms
that we start to see arrising the most out of these
recors is "bushi" and "Kyuba no Michi". These two
terms as far as I know are the main precursors to the
famed "Samurai" and "bushido". While there are many
terms used to describe ancient warriors of Japan these
appear to be the most common. Samrai does come from
the meaning "to serve" and sybolized this idea
throughout the history of Japan.

Humble words

Musashi
--- fifthchamber@... wrote:

> 'Samurai' as a title comes from the verb 'Saburau'
> (to serve) so presumably
> the point being made is that these men were moving
> up in control rather than
> being simply 'attendants' to the nobility at the
> time. Although I am
> certainly not sure about this...Perhaps 'Samurai'
> should be applied to the
> warriors of the Muromachi era onwards as their role
> here was clearly defined
> as being 'Vassal' members of various clans, thus
> 'serving' rather than
> 'uprising' to control...But the point is uncertain.
> For me anyway! Sorry that
> I could not be more help!
>

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erik baker wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Ihope that I can be of some help to you with a little
> info.
>
> Originally the warriors of ancient Japan went by many
> different names as they became a military elite
> serving a more ancient and august leadership(the
> emperor). These elite warriors where called many
> different things in many different records. The terms
> that we start to see arrising the most out of these
> recors is "bushi" and "Kyuba no Michi". These two
> terms as far as I know are the main precursors to the
> famed "Samurai" and "bushido". While there are many
> terms used to describe ancient warriors of Japan these
> appear to be the most common. Samrai does come from
> the meaning "to serve" and sybolized this idea
> throughout the history of Japan.
>

Not quite.

The earliest terms for warriors, dating from the records of the seventh
century and later, were "tsuwamono" or "mononofu", or occasionally "mosa."

Bushi and samurai are of later development.

Kyuba no michi, BTW, does not refer to the person, but to the occupation; it
is "the WAY of the bow and horse."

Tony

Sorry for the misunderstanding. When I said kyba no
michi I meant the occupation not the person. I was
just using it as an example.

Just as a question. Is the word mononofu related to
the word mononobe that is used in the nihon shoki or
are they just similar by coincidence.

Musashi
--- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:

> erik baker wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > Ihope that I can be of some help to you with a
> little
> > info.
> >
> > Originally the warriors of ancient Japan went by
> many
> > different names as they became a military elite
> > serving a more ancient and august leadership(the
> > emperor). These elite warriors where called many
> > different things in many different records. The
> terms
> > that we start to see arrising the most out of
> these
> > recors is "bushi" and "Kyuba no Michi". These two
> > terms as far as I know are the main precursors to
> the
> > famed "Samurai" and "bushido". While there are
> many
> > terms used to describe ancient warriors of Japan
> these
> > appear to be the most common. Samrai does come
> from
> > the meaning "to serve" and sybolized this idea
> > throughout the history of Japan.
> >
>
> Not quite.
>
> The earliest terms for warriors, dating from the
> records of the seventh
> century and later, were "tsuwamono" or "mononofu",
> or occasionally "mosa."
>
> Bushi and samurai are of later development.
>
> Kyuba no michi, BTW, does not refer to the person,
> but to the occupation; it
> is "the WAY of the bow and horse."
>
> Tony
>
>

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I think the writer is telling us that the term is an anachronism (not in use
at that time) and not that the men and their culture were not "serving" as
it were.

Tom

From Anthony Byrant:

>The earliest terms for warriors, dating from the records of the seventh
>century and later, were "tsuwamono" or "mononofu", or occasionally "mosa."

Does either of these translate to "strongman/strongmen"?

Scott Nicholas

snicholas@... wrote:

> From Anthony Byrant:
> >The earliest terms for warriors, dating from the records of the seventh
> >century and later, were "tsuwamono" or "mononofu", or occasionally "mosa."
>
> Does either of these translate to "strongman/strongmen"?

Not as such, but "mosa" means something like "fierce person."


Tony

erik baker wrote:

> Sorry for the misunderstanding. When I said kyba no
> michi I meant the occupation not the person. I was
> just using it as an example.
>
> Just as a question. Is the word mononofu related to
> the word mononobe that is used in the nihon shoki or
> are they just similar by coincidence.

It's usually written with the same kanji (damn those Japanese writers).

The Mononobe, however, was the specific kabane used by the -- well, Mononobe
"clan" -- the military "clan."


Tony