Japanese Samurai History

#2147 [2003-08-27 15:23:41]

gun tactics

by nihontonut

Volly fire of guns was first used in Japan at the battle of Nagashino in 1575. My question is,
is this the first time it was employed anywhere? When was this tactic first used in Europe?
I know the europeans were using the "broadside" in naval warfare but when was in first used
by infantry, anyone know?

Dave Jackson

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Next #2149]

#2149 [2003-08-27 21:08:48]

Re: gun tactics

by kitsuno

According the book "The Military Revolution" by Geoffrey Parker(a
book which I no longer own, so am going by memory) Nobunaga's use of
volley fire was the first of it's kind, not seen in Europe until the
1590's. Here is an excerpt from a research paper I wrote in 1997 on
the subject, for what it is worth:

"What might be overlooked is that the technique used by Nobunaga to
keep a continuous hail of bullets flying at the enemy [at Nagashino] -
having the front row of musketeers move to the back to reload,
allowing the next row to fire - was not even realized in Europe until
almost twenty years after Nobunaga's application, in the 1590's.
(Parker)"

'The Military Revolution' is an excellent book and I highly recommend
it. If anyone on this list owns it, the section on Nobunaga can be
found on page 140, where if I recall correctly he actually mentions
who and where in Europe utilized volley fire for the first time in
Europe.

As an aside to this, my military history teacher, who held any in
disdain any non-european country (in regards to pre-modern history),
argued to me that Nobunaga's approach wasn't used until later in
Europe because it was inferior to having everyone blast away at once
which would cause greater shock and chaos in the enemy ranks, or
something essentially to that effect... any thoughts on this?

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Dave Jackson
wrote:

> Volly fire of guns was first used in Japan at the battle of

Nagashino in 1575. My question is,

> is this the first time it was employed anywhere? When was this

tactic first used in Europe?

> I know the europeans were using the "broadside" in naval warfare

but when was in first used

> by infantry, anyone know?
>
> Dave Jackson
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #2147] [Next #2151]

#2151 [2003-08-27 21:44:07]

Re: gun tactics

by shogunmasami

I think its pretty safe to say that most people would disagree with
your military history teacher. Sure having everyone shoot at once
might scare an army that have never seen guns before, but they and
everyone else who knew of guns would realize that there would be a
long loading time before everyone would shoot again. Your military
history teacher seemed to be trying to come up with an excuse, and a
poor one at that, to discredit Nobunaga. Not to mention that since
volley fire was introduced to Europe, to was utilized for hundreds
of years, until WWI, when the machine gun was introduced. So it
seems that many European nations thought it was a good idea.......

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Kitsuno" listowner@s...> wrote:

> According the book "The Military Revolution" by Geoffrey Parker(a
> book which I no longer own, so am going by memory) Nobunaga's use

> volley fire was the first of it's kind, not seen in Europe until

the

> 1590's. Here is an excerpt from a research paper I wrote in 1997

> the subject, for what it is worth:
>
> "What might be overlooked is that the technique used by Nobunaga

> keep a continuous hail of bullets flying at the enemy [at

Nagashino] -

> having the front row of musketeers move to the back to reload,
> allowing the next row to fire - was not even realized in Europe

until

> almost twenty years after Nobunaga's application, in the 1590's.
> (Parker)"
>
> 'The Military Revolution' is an excellent book and I highly

recommend

> it. If anyone on this list owns it, the section on Nobunaga can

> found on page 140, where if I recall correctly he actually

mentions

> who and where in Europe utilized volley fire for the first time in
> Europe.
>
> As an aside to this, my military history teacher, who held any in
> disdain any non-european country (in regards to pre-modern

history),

> argued to me that Nobunaga's approach wasn't used until later in
> Europe because it was inferior to having everyone blast away at

once

> which would cause greater shock and chaos in the enemy ranks, or
> something essentially to that effect... any thoughts on this?
>
>
>
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Dave Jackson

> wrote:
> > Volly fire of guns was first used in Japan at the battle of
> Nagashino in 1575. My question is,
> > is this the first time it was employed anywhere? When was this
> tactic first used in Europe?
> > I know the europeans were using the "broadside" in naval warfare
> but when was in first used
> > by infantry, anyone know?
> >
> > Dave Jackson
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #2149] [Next #2153]

#2153 [2003-08-28 03:14:10]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: gun tactics

by ltdomer98

Nobunaga did it before the Europeans did, but he
wasn't the first--he had it used on him by the
Ikko-ikki at Nagashima. He just perfected it and used
it to best effect at Nagashino. I'm convinced that the
REAL innovation at Nagashino was not so much the
volley fire but the conjuction of missile weapons and
natural and man-made obstacles. He integrated fires
and obstacles as well as any modern commander would.

As to your history prof, I agree with the last
post--sounds to me like someone was trying to play
down the importance of Japanese innovation. His
reasoning makes NO military tactical sense whatsoever.
Shoot, even with a tank platoon today you have
similiar thinking in the way you'd divide the
battlefield between sections and individual
tanks--similiar concepts, so that not everyone is
shooting at the same target and there is a constant
rate of fire.

Nate

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com

[Previous #2151] [Next #2156]

#2156 [2003-08-28 11:01:44]

Re: gun tactics

by miburo_saitoh

Oh man, this post really comes in handy, as I was gonna ask when were
guns introduced to Japan (were they introduced by the portuguese or
someone else?). But I have another question: how many shots per
minute (depending on your speed of reload) could these guns fire at
the beginning of the 1600s? Or more to the point: how much time did
you need to reload? In the commentaries to the 7 Samurai DVD it is
said that 2 minutes were needed, but I would like to confirm that, if
possible.

The Wolf of Mibu

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Dave Jackson
wrote:

> Volly fire of guns was first used in Japan at the battle of

Nagashino in 1575. My question is,

> is this the first time it was employed anywhere? When was this

tactic first used in Europe?

> I know the europeans were using the "broadside" in naval warfare

but when was in first used

> by infantry, anyone know?
>
> Dave Jackson
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #2153] [Next #2157]

#2157 [2003-08-28 11:45:42]

Re: gun tactics

by kitsuno

I agree totally. We had a class discussion after I did a presentation
in the military history class on Oda Nobunaga's reunification efforts
from 1560-1582, and professor is a hard-core Roman scholar and an all
around pro-euro military guy, and his attempts at belittling Nobunaga
seemed sort of sadly pathetic to me at the time. He quickly moved
the conversation on to the next presentation on the Knights of
Templar, which was more to his tastes.

> As to your history prof, I agree with the last
> post--sounds to me like someone was trying to play
> down the importance of Japanese innovation. His
> reasoning makes NO military tactical sense whatsoever.
> Shoot, even with a tank platoon today you have
> similiar thinking in the way you'd divide the
> battlefield between sections and individual
> tanks--similiar concepts, so that not everyone is
> shooting at the same target and there is a constant
> rate of fire.
>
> Nate

[Previous #2156] [Next #2158]

#2158 [2003-08-28 11:49:22]

R: [samuraihistory] Re: gun tactics

by Carlo Tacchini

''hard-core Roman scholar'' hehehe...
Must be many years ago...

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Kitsuno [mailto:samurai-listowner@...]
Inviato: giovedì 28 agosto 2003 20.46
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: [samuraihistory] Re: gun tactics

I agree totally. We had a class discussion after I did a presentation
in the military history class on Oda Nobunaga's reunification efforts
from 1560-1582, and professor is a hard-core Roman scholar and an all
around pro-euro military guy, and his attempts at belittling Nobunaga
seemed sort of sadly pathetic to me at the time. He quickly moved
the conversation on to the next presentation on the Knights of
Templar, which was more to his tastes.

> As to your history prof, I agree with the last
> post--sounds to me like someone was trying to play
> down the importance of Japanese innovation. His
> reasoning makes NO military tactical sense whatsoever.
> Shoot, even with a tank platoon today you have
> similiar thinking in the way you'd divide the
> battlefield between sections and individual
> tanks--similiar concepts, so that not everyone is
> shooting at the same target and there is a constant
> rate of fire.
>
> Nate

Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
---
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[Previous #2157] [Next #2159]

#2159 [2003-08-28 12:03:36]

R: [samuraihistory] Re: gun tactics

by kitsuno

That would be Caesar's Romans, not Mussolini's Romans ;)

wrote:

> ''hard-core Roman scholar'' hehehe...
> Must be many years ago...

[Previous #2158] [Next #2160]

#2160 [2003-08-28 12:04:48]

R: [samuraihistory] Re: gun tactics

by Carlo Tacchini

Hahaha... Touched !!!

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Kitsuno [mailto:samurai-listowner@...]
Inviato: giovedì 28 agosto 2003 21.04
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: R: [samuraihistory] Re: gun tactics

That would be Caesar's Romans, not Mussolini's Romans ;)

wrote:

> ''hard-core Roman scholar'' hehehe...
> Must be many years ago...

[Previous #2159] [Next #2183]

#2183 [2003-08-29 11:23:41]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: gun tactics

by goodfella26426

The british were using a different type of gun in 1755, but the method of loading was still the same, perhaps even a little slower, but they could pull of 3 shots a minute if they were well trained and practiced.. so I guess it depends a lot on how much effort the person puts into it..

Wilson

--

--------- Original Message ---------
DATE: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 18:01:44
From: "Saitoh Hajime" <the_sam_99@...>
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Cc:

Oh man, this post really comes in handy, as I was gonna ask when were
guns introduced to Japan (were they introduced by the portuguese or
someone else?). But I have another question: how many shots per
minute (depending on your speed of reload) could these guns fire at
the beginning of the 1600s? Or more to the point: how much time did
you need to reload? In the commentaries to the 7 Samurai DVD it is
said that 2 minutes were needed, but I would like to confirm that, if
possible.

The Wolf of Mibu

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Dave Jackson
wrote:

> Volly fire of guns was first used in Japan at the battle of

Nagashino in 1575. My question is,

> is this the first time it was employed anywhere? When was this

tactic first used in Europe?

> I know the europeans were using the "broadside" in naval warfare

but when was in first used

> by infantry, anyone know?
>
> Dave Jackson
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
---
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

____________________________________________________________
Get advanced SPAM filtering on Webmail or POP Mail ... Get Lycos Mail!
http://login.mail.lycos.com/r/referral?aid=27005

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #2160] [Next #2184]

#2184 [2003-08-29 11:20:42]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: gun tactics

by goodfella26426

Yes, a large amount of gun fire would scare the bejesus out of every one, BUT we're not talking about a accuracy.. we're talking about volley fire.. if anyone knows much about European history they will remember the battle of agincourt.. the first time the british really utillized their archers against infantry and cavalry, the result: having the achers just send a volley of arrows won them the war.. I realize that reloading a matchlock goes much slower than nocking an arrow to a string, as I have been in many battle re-enactments w/ muzzleloaders, but the principal is the same.. as long as their is a sizeable force, volley fire is very effective, you dont hafta aim, just shoot in the general direction of the other army.. your bond to hit someone.. especially on an open field.. another good example is the battle of culloden when the scots faced the british.. the scots were armed only w/ swords, and the brits had brown besses.. a volley fire pretty much ended that battle.. so I
think the volley fire works better than ppl give it credit for..

--

--------- Original Message ---------
DATE: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 04:44:07
From: "Masamori Masami" <oni_shogun@...>
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Cc:

I think its pretty safe to say that most people would disagree with
your military history teacher. Sure having everyone shoot at once
might scare an army that have never seen guns before, but they and
everyone else who knew of guns would realize that there would be a
long loading time before everyone would shoot again. Your military
history teacher seemed to be trying to come up with an excuse, and a
poor one at that, to discredit Nobunaga. Not to mention that since
volley fire was introduced to Europe, to was utilized for hundreds
of years, until WWI, when the machine gun was introduced. So it
seems that many European nations thought it was a good idea.......

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Kitsuno" listowner@s...> wrote:

> According the book "The Military Revolution" by Geoffrey Parker(a
> book which I no longer own, so am going by memory) Nobunaga's use

> volley fire was the first of it's kind, not seen in Europe until

the

> 1590's. Here is an excerpt from a research paper I wrote in 1997

> the subject, for what it is worth:
>
> "What might be overlooked is that the technique used by Nobunaga

> keep a continuous hail of bullets flying at the enemy [at

Nagashino] -

> having the front row of musketeers move to the back to reload,
> allowing the next row to fire - was not even realized in Europe

until

> almost twenty years after Nobunaga's application, in the 1590's.
> (Parker)"
>
> 'The Military Revolution' is an excellent book and I highly

recommend

> it. If anyone on this list owns it, the section on Nobunaga can

> found on page 140, where if I recall correctly he actually

mentions

> who and where in Europe utilized volley fire for the first time in
> Europe.
>
> As an aside to this, my military history teacher, who held any in
> disdain any non-european country (in regards to pre-modern

history),

> argued to me that Nobunaga's approach wasn't used until later in
> Europe because it was inferior to having everyone blast away at

once

> which would cause greater shock and chaos in the enemy ranks, or
> something essentially to that effect... any thoughts on this?
>
>
>
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Dave Jackson

> wrote:
> > Volly fire of guns was first used in Japan at the battle of
> Nagashino in 1575. My question is,
> > is this the first time it was employed anywhere? When was this
> tactic first used in Europe?
> > I know the europeans were using the "broadside" in naval warfare
> but when was in first used
> > by infantry, anyone know?
> >
> > Dave Jackson
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #2183]