The Last Samurai? Good? Bad?

Bob Burke recently brought up the Satsuma Rebellion of 1877 in one
of his posts, and this got me thinking of "The Last Samurai." This
movie is scheduled to come out in December and from what I've seen
it seems to be kind of accurate and very much like a James Clavell
book (names changed and such). But what do you guys think of it? Do
you think it has the potential to be up there with Shogun and The
Seven Samurai? Or is it just a big Hollywood crapfest to make money
and draw in crowds with big battle scenes?

First class crapfest!
Can't wait to see it...
-t

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Masamori Masami"
wrote:

> Bob Burke recently brought up the Satsuma Rebellion of 1877 in one
> of his posts, and this got me thinking of "The Last Samurai." This
> movie is scheduled to come out in December and from what I've seen
> it seems to be kind of accurate and very much like a James Clavell
> book (names changed and such). But what do you guys think of it?

Do

> you think it has the potential to be up there with Shogun and The
> Seven Samurai? Or is it just a big Hollywood crapfest to make money
> and draw in crowds with big battle scenes?

Shogun was based on pshudo historical fact, hence the historical
fiction label. where as the Satsuma rebellion actully happend. Though
i would be interisted to know if there where any non japanese as part
of the rebellion other than in ports.

Atsi Kazuri

Probably a combination of a crapfest with a movie that tries to be
accurate, but being Hollywood it probably leans more toward crap.
I'll still go to see it, it's a samurai movie after all, and it does
seem interesting.

THe Wolf of Mibu


--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Masamori Masami"
wrote:

> Bob Burke recently brought up the Satsuma Rebellion of 1877 in one
> of his posts, and this got me thinking of "The Last Samurai." This
> movie is scheduled to come out in December and from what I've seen
> it seems to be kind of accurate and very much like a James Clavell
> book (names changed and such). But what do you guys think of it?

Do

> you think it has the potential to be up there with Shogun and The
> Seven Samurai? Or is it just a big Hollywood crapfest to make money
> and draw in crowds with big battle scenes?

To be honest I expect a lot of "wire fighting", swords chopping cannonballs in half (or some such) a good bit of Matrix style acrobatics-"Super Samurai" decimating 30 opponents with one mighty blow.... It'll probably transfer the old "Super-Human Ninja" character to the "Super-Human Samurai"- without the entertainment value of "Crouching Tiger-Hidden Dragon"--(which I really enjoyed-& I'm not ashamed to admit it) Of course I might not have any idea what I'm talking about and it may turn out to be one helluva great flik.....Ronin

Masamori Masami <oni_shogun@...> wrote:Bob Burke recently brought up the Satsuma Rebellion of 1877 in one
of his posts, and this got me thinking of "The Last Samurai." This
movie is scheduled to come out in December and from what I've seen
it seems to be kind of accurate and very much like a James Clavell
book (names changed and such). But what do you guys think of it? Do
you think it has the potential to be up there with Shogun and The
Seven Samurai? Or is it just a big Hollywood crapfest to make money
and draw in crowds with big battle scenes?




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

There were I believe French naval officers who resigned their
commissions to fight alongside their Tokugawa Samurai students in the
Meiji Isshin. Never heard of foreign participation in any of the
later rebellions...
-t

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Masamori Masami wrote:

> Bob Burke recently brought up the Satsuma Rebellion of 1877 in one
> of his posts, and this got me thinking of "The Last Samurai." This
> movie is scheduled to come out in December and from what I've seen
> it seems to be kind of accurate and very much like a James Clavell
> book (names changed and such). But what do you guys think of it? Do
> you think it has the potential to be up there with Shogun and The
> Seven Samurai? Or is it just a big Hollywood crapfest to make money
> and draw in crowds with big battle scenes?

I look at going to it much as I do going to the dentist. I don't want to. I don't like it. I know it'll hurt. But I
have to go.

Tony

Agreed....I think it will be painful. Horribly Wrong.
And that's on top of how I feel about Tom Cruise in
general. It will be the pain of Shogun (the
translations, the Edo-jidai uniform kimono, the
silliness of the whole love story) on a much grander
scale. It will hurt. It will kill me. And I will go.

Nate

--- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:

> Masamori Masami wrote:
>
> > Bob Burke recently brought up the Satsuma
> Rebellion of 1877 in one
> > of his posts, and this got me thinking of "The
> Last Samurai." This
> > movie is scheduled to come out in December and
> from what I've seen
> > it seems to be kind of accurate and very much like
> a James Clavell
> > book (names changed and such). But what do you
> guys think of it? Do
> > you think it has the potential to be up there with
> Shogun and The
> > Seven Samurai? Or is it just a big Hollywood
> crapfest to make money
> > and draw in crowds with big battle scenes?
>
> I look at going to it much as I do going to the
> dentist. I don't want to. I don't like it. I know
> it'll hurt. But I
> have to go.
>
> Tony
>
>
>

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Is Shogun also a movie? I thought it was only a book...

What do you guys think of the Kurosawa samurai movies, are they
historically accurate? I hear that Kagemusha is about using a double
of Oda Nobunaga to hide his death. Was this fiction or are there at
least some rumors to it?

The Wolf of Mibu


--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
wrote:

> Agreed....I think it will be painful. Horribly Wrong.
> And that's on top of how I feel about Tom Cruise in
> general. It will be the pain of Shogun (the
> translations, the Edo-jidai uniform kimono, the
> silliness of the whole love story) on a much grander
> scale. It will hurt. It will kill me. And I will go.
>
> Nate
>
> --- "Anthony J. Bryant" wrote:
> > Masamori Masami wrote:
> >
> > > Bob Burke recently brought up the Satsuma
> > Rebellion of 1877 in one
> > > of his posts, and this got me thinking of "The
> > Last Samurai." This
> > > movie is scheduled to come out in December and
> > from what I've seen
> > > it seems to be kind of accurate and very much like
> > a James Clavell
> > > book (names changed and such). But what do you
> > guys think of it? Do
> > > you think it has the potential to be up there with
> > Shogun and The
> > > Seven Samurai? Or is it just a big Hollywood
> > crapfest to make money
> > > and draw in crowds with big battle scenes?
> >
> > I look at going to it much as I do going to the
> > dentist. I don't want to. I don't like it. I know
> > it'll hurt. But I
> > have to go.
> >
> > Tony
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com

Shogun was a miniseries in the late 1970's (1979?) or
maybe 1980 and while it was probably the best
available at the time, it was sometimes painful once I
knew better. The miniseries and book started many of
us on the path, but when you actually study the
history, the whole love story et al is SOOO
contrived...not to mention the language errors in both
the book and the miniseries...

Nate

--- Saitoh Hajime <the_sam_99@...> wrote:

> Is Shogun also a movie? I thought it was only a
> book...
>
> What do you guys think of the Kurosawa samurai
> movies, are they
> historically accurate? I hear that Kagemusha is
> about using a double
> of Oda Nobunaga to hide his death. Was this fiction
> or are there at
> least some rumors to it?
>
> The Wolf of Mibu
>
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate
> Ledbetter
> wrote:
> > Agreed....I think it will be painful. Horribly
> Wrong.
> > And that's on top of how I feel about Tom Cruise
> in
> > general. It will be the pain of Shogun (the
> > translations, the Edo-jidai uniform kimono, the
> > silliness of the whole love story) on a much
> grander
> > scale. It will hurt. It will kill me. And I will
> go.
> >
> > Nate
> >
> > --- "Anthony J. Bryant" wrote:
> > > Masamori Masami wrote:
> > >
> > > > Bob Burke recently brought up the Satsuma
> > > Rebellion of 1877 in one
> > > > of his posts, and this got me thinking of "The
> > > Last Samurai." This
> > > > movie is scheduled to come out in December and
> > > from what I've seen
> > > > it seems to be kind of accurate and very much
> like
> > > a James Clavell
> > > > book (names changed and such). But what do
> you
> > > guys think of it? Do
> > > > you think it has the potential to be up there
> with
> > > Shogun and The
> > > > Seven Samurai? Or is it just a big Hollywood
> > > crapfest to make money
> > > > and draw in crowds with big battle scenes?
> > >
> > > I look at going to it much as I do going to the
> > > dentist. I don't want to. I don't like it. I
> know
> > > it'll hurt. But I
> > > have to go.
> > >
> > > Tony
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site
> design software
> > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
>
>
>

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Spoken like a true wargamer/masochist.

Bob Burke

In a message dated 8/28/03 3:54:53 PM, ltdomer98@... writes:

<< Agreed....I think it will be painful. Horribly Wrong.
And that's on top of how I feel about Tom Cruise in
general. It will be the pain of Shogun (the
translations, the Edo-jidai uniform kimono, the
silliness of the whole love story) on a much grander
scale. It will hurt. It will kill me. And I will go.

Nate >>

I don't wargame for fun, I get enough of it in my job.
But I do appreciate accuracy and reality--it's almost
a curse in my job. And of course they are going to
muck it up, because accuracy and reality doesn't sell
in movies. The American public would rather see Tom
Cruise run around in gusoku, and be fed trite BS about
bushido, etc., romanticising this rather than treating
it with any degree of objective reality. I will go and
watch, hoping I'm wrong, but expecting that I'll spend
more time noticing incorrect details than appreciating
anything in the movie.

Nate

--- Burker1@... wrote:

> Spoken like a true wargamer/masochist.
>
> Bob Burke
>
> In a message dated 8/28/03 3:54:53 PM,
> ltdomer98@... writes:
>
> << Agreed....I think it will be painful. Horribly
> Wrong.
> And that's on top of how I feel about Tom Cruise in
> general. It will be the pain of Shogun (the
> translations, the Edo-jidai uniform kimono, the
> silliness of the whole love story) on a much grander
> scale. It will hurt. It will kill me. And I will go.
>
> Nate >>
>
>

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Hey there.
This may sound like dumb question, but AS A WORK OF FICTION, is Shogun
any good? Or is it a mire of a story like I found Tale of the Heike to be?
Just wondering, b/c I'm thinking of reading it. (And yes, I am planning to
give Tale another honest try someday, just not right now.)

Later
Tim


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It's great. But there has to be some willing
suspension of disbelief. No way would Hosokawa Gracia
and Will Adams, the real characters that Mariko and
Blackthorne were based loosely on, have gotten
together. NO WAY. As long as you don't take it too
seriously, it's a lot of fun. But a lot of western
misconceptions are there--like the ninja mystique,
incorrect translations of Japanese, notions of samurai
honor that didn't really exist until much later (or at
least we're not codified)....it plays on a lot of
samurai stereotypes that are frustrating if you know
better. Down to things like that the main Daimyo had
uniforms for their samurai--um, no.

But literary wise, it's a fun read.

Nate
--- Eponymous13@... wrote:

> Hey there.
> This may sound like dumb question, but AS A
> WORK OF FICTION, is Shogun
> any good? Or is it a mire of a story like I found
> Tale of the Heike to be?
> Just wondering, b/c I'm thinking of reading it.
> (And yes, I am planning to
> give Tale another honest try someday, just not right
> now.)
>
> Later
> Tim
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>

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Thanx. :-D

Tim


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Eponymous13@... wrote:

> Hey there.
> This may sound like dumb question, but AS A WORK OF FICTION, is Shogun
> any good? Or is it a mire of a story like I found Tale of the Heike to be?
> Just wondering, b/c I'm thinking of reading it. (And yes, I am planning to
> give Tale another honest try someday, just not right now.)
>

It depends on what you consider to be "fiction."

To me, it fails greatly in the historical accuracy, historical verisimilitude, and linguistic accuracy (etc.) tests.
To some people, that's not a problem.

Let me give you an example. In the current issue of Hitchcock Magazine, there's a "Heian period" murder mystery. It's
set in the eleventh century. Except I recognize the Japanese story used as the basis for it -- a story that took
place a century later (because there was a war that figured in the background, and one of the characters is
historical). I also recognized that the author made some anachronisms with names (using a very late period name for a
woman character in the story). I was also thrown off because of mentions of cotton clothing and candles, neither of
which existed in Japan during the Heian period. So.... is that a good story? To some, yes. To me, no. There was too
much wrong with it that kept throwing me *out* of the story.

Like some people stop reading detective fiction where someone puts a silencer on a revolver. Or removes "the clip"
from a revolver. Both of which I see often -- it means the writer really doesn't know guns, and hasn't done the
research -- it makes me wonder what else might be wrong that I *don't* know about.

Tony

Thanks again. :-D

Tim


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Shogun was a mini-series, 10 hours, and is coming out on DVD in
Sept. I also believe they made a shorter tv movie of Shogun, that
probaly isnt that good since they would have to cut out 8-7 hours of
the storyline.

Kagemusha is infact about Takeda Shingen and how after he died, due
to a bullet wound, his head generals got a double to pretend to be
him. They managed to hide his death for a year, I believe. The movie
has Nobunaga and Ieyasu in it, but its not about Nobunaga. By the
way, this did actually happen.

Ive seen a few Kurosawa films, and they seem very accurate. I
recommend any Kurosawa film.

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Saitoh Hajime"
wrote:

> Is Shogun also a movie? I thought it was only a book...
>
> What do you guys think of the Kurosawa samurai movies, are they
> historically accurate? I hear that Kagemusha is about using a

double

> of Oda Nobunaga to hide his death. Was this fiction or are there

at

> least some rumors to it?
>
> The Wolf of Mibu
>
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
> wrote:
> > Agreed....I think it will be painful. Horribly Wrong.
> > And that's on top of how I feel about Tom Cruise in
> > general. It will be the pain of Shogun (the
> > translations, the Edo-jidai uniform kimono, the
> > silliness of the whole love story) on a much grander
> > scale. It will hurt. It will kill me. And I will go.
> >
> > Nate
> >
> > --- "Anthony J. Bryant" wrote:
> > > Masamori Masami wrote:
> > >
> > > > Bob Burke recently brought up the Satsuma
> > > Rebellion of 1877 in one
> > > > of his posts, and this got me thinking of "The
> > > Last Samurai." This
> > > > movie is scheduled to come out in December and
> > > from what I've seen
> > > > it seems to be kind of accurate and very much like
> > > a James Clavell
> > > > book (names changed and such). But what do you
> > > guys think of it? Do
> > > > you think it has the potential to be up there with
> > > Shogun and The
> > > > Seven Samurai? Or is it just a big Hollywood
> > > crapfest to make money
> > > > and draw in crowds with big battle scenes?
> > >
> > > I look at going to it much as I do going to the
> > > dentist. I don't want to. I don't like it. I know
> > > it'll hurt. But I
> > > have to go.
> > >
> > > Tony
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com

Hey There.
I might go see it. To be honest, I'm not a big movie person, and I'm
even less of a Tom Cruise fan, even if I do like some of his older work (Top
Gun and A Few Good Men being personal faves). I'd much rather read the book.
Hence, the question about Clavell's novel, Shogun. I'm thinking of seeing
Jason v Freddie, but only because it's been anticipated for how long now?. (And
I'm not a slasher fan either.) To be honest, if I thought back on the last
five movies I saw in the theater, I'd be hardpressed, it would go back nearly
three years and the only non-cartoon would be My Big Fat Greek Wedding.
Anyway, thanks for the info on Shogun at any rate. (Yeah, I know
this is the third time I've said that. :-)!)

Later
Tim


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You and I are pretty anal, though. I'll admit it--you?
It's why I've been killing myself putting together a
presentation for work--actually, 2. I'm tired of
hearing soldiers say the north Koreans have x tank or
y vehicle when they DON'T. So I've put together the
mother of all north Korean and south Korean vehicle ID
classes, with about 250 slides each. It's sick. My
lieutenant thinks I'm obsessed. I probably am. But
it's because people keep getting things WRONG...and
I'm sick of it.

Nate

--- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:

> Eponymous13@... wrote:
>
> > Hey there.
> > This may sound like dumb question, but AS A
> WORK OF FICTION, is Shogun
> > any good? Or is it a mire of a story like I found
> Tale of the Heike to be?
> > Just wondering, b/c I'm thinking of reading it.
> (And yes, I am planning to
> > give Tale another honest try someday, just not
> right now.)
> >
>
> It depends on what you consider to be "fiction."
>
> To me, it fails greatly in the historical accuracy,
> historical verisimilitude, and linguistic accuracy
> (etc.) tests.
> To some people, that's not a problem.
>
> Let me give you an example. In the current issue of
> Hitchcock Magazine, there's a "Heian period" murder
> mystery. It's
> set in the eleventh century. Except I recognize the
> Japanese story used as the basis for it -- a story
> that took
> place a century later (because there was a war that
> figured in the background, and one of the characters
> is
> historical). I also recognized that the author made
> some anachronisms with names (using a very late
> period name for a
> woman character in the story). I was also thrown off
> because of mentions of cotton clothing and candles,
> neither of
> which existed in Japan during the Heian period.
> So.... is that a good story? To some, yes. To me,
> no. There was too
> much wrong with it that kept throwing me *out* of
> the story.
>
> Like some people stop reading detective fiction
> where someone puts a silencer on a revolver. Or
> removes "the clip"
> from a revolver. Both of which I see often -- it
> means the writer really doesn't know guns, and
> hasn't done the
> research -- it makes me wonder what else might be
> wrong that I *don't* know about.
>
> Tony
>
>
>

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Nate Ledbetter wrote:

> You and I are pretty anal, though. I'll admit it--you?

Oh, heck, yeah. Definitely.

>
> It's why I've been killing myself putting together a
> presentation for work--actually, 2. I'm tired of
> hearing soldiers say the north Koreans have x tank or
> y vehicle when they DON'T. So I've put together the
> mother of all north Korean and south Korean vehicle ID
> classes, with about 250 slides each. It's sick. My
> lieutenant thinks I'm obsessed. I probably am. But
> it's because people keep getting things WRONG...and
> I'm sick of it.

Hey, given the way things are going these days (oy...) that may come in more handy than you might imagine. Sigh...



Tony

You both may be anal, nate & tony, but I'd come to you guys first if I had
something in Japanese history that I didn't understand. And good luck on your
projects, nate. :-D

Tim


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks...I teach my first class on it on Thursday.
We'll see how it goes..

nate

--- Eponymous13@... wrote:

> You both may be anal, nate & tony, but I'd come to
> you guys first if I had
> something in Japanese history that I didn't
> understand. And good luck on your
> projects, nate. :-D
>
> Tim
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>

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I only recently have obtained a big interest in the hisory of japan.. so Im looking foreward to going and seeing "The Last Samurai".. I wont know whats wrong w/ it when I watch it.. But I have done French and Indian war and American Revolutionary war re-enacting for 20 years now.. so when ever I see a film set in the 18th century, it drives me up the wall at all the inaccuracies I find.. ppl hate to watch them w/ me..I have a tendency to ruin them for everyone.. doesnt it suck to know what your talking about when ever oone else doesnt?? lol..

Wilson

--

--------- Original Message ---------
DATE: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 01:06:08
From: Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...>
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Cc:

You and I are pretty anal, though. I'll admit it--you?
It's why I've been killing myself putting together a
presentation for work--actually, 2. I'm tired of
hearing soldiers say the north Koreans have x tank or
y vehicle when they DON'T. So I've put together the
mother of all north Korean and south Korean vehicle ID
classes, with about 250 slides each. It's sick. My
lieutenant thinks I'm obsessed. I probably am. But
it's because people keep getting things WRONG...and
I'm sick of it.

Nate

--- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:

> Eponymous13@... wrote:
>
> > Hey there.
> > This may sound like dumb question, but AS A
> WORK OF FICTION, is Shogun
> > any good? Or is it a mire of a story like I found
> Tale of the Heike to be?
> > Just wondering, b/c I'm thinking of reading it.
> (And yes, I am planning to
> > give Tale another honest try someday, just not
> right now.)
> >
>
> It depends on what you consider to be "fiction."
>
> To me, it fails greatly in the historical accuracy,
> historical verisimilitude, and linguistic accuracy
> (etc.) tests.
> To some people, that's not a problem.
>
> Let me give you an example. In the current issue of
> Hitchcock Magazine, there's a "Heian period" murder
> mystery. It's
> set in the eleventh century. Except I recognize the
> Japanese story used as the basis for it -- a story
> that took
> place a century later (because there was a war that
> figured in the background, and one of the characters
> is
> historical). I also recognized that the author made
> some anachronisms with names (using a very late
> period name for a
> woman character in the story). I was also thrown off
> because of mentions of cotton clothing and candles,
> neither of
> which existed in Japan during the Heian period.
> So.... is that a good story? To some, yes. To me,
> no. There was too
> much wrong with it that kept throwing me *out* of
> the story.
>
> Like some people stop reading detective fiction
> where someone puts a silencer on a revolver. Or
> removes "the clip"
> from a revolver. Both of which I see often -- it
> means the writer really doesn't know guns, and
> hasn't done the
> research -- it makes me wonder what else might be
> wrong that I *don't* know about.
>
> Tony
>
>
>

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I agree with Tim. I've learned alot from you two, and hope to continue to do so! :)

Phil

Eponymous13@... wrote:
You both may be anal, nate & tony, but I'd come to you guys first if I had
something in Japanese history that I didn't understand. And good luck on your
projects, nate. :-D

Tim


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Guys have a look at this www.lastsamurai.com.

the trailor looks pretty cool !

Matt

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Poppa Bear [mailto:dangelo72@...]
Verzonden: zaterdag 30 augustus 2003 17:46
Aan: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [samuraihistory] The Last Samurai? Good? Bad?


I agree with Tim. I've learned alot from you two, and hope to continue
to do so! :)

Phil

Eponymous13@... wrote:
You both may be anal, nate & tony, but I'd come to you guys first if I
had
something in Japanese history that I didn't understand. And good luck on
your
projects, nate. :-D

Tim


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have a feeling I'm about to be stoned for heresy, but despite all the
historical inaccurasies can't you still enjoy the movie? I mean as a work of
historical FICTION (you know, based on history but mostly made up). Not
that I won't be bugged by all the little things too. I know I'll be sitting
in the theater shaking my head muttering under my breath "no, no, OH
gimmeabreak! that could NEVER happen, where did they get this information?"
Most movies have been like that for me since I became somewhat obsessed with
Micheal Crichton books :) Anyways, ya'll keep saying how you'll hate it but
still see it. It will hurt. It won't kill me. I'll still go.

>From: Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...>
>Reply-To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
>To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] The Last Samurai? Good? Bad?
>Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 15:50:13 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Agreed....I think it will be painful. Horribly Wrong.
>And that's on top of how I feel about Tom Cruise in
>general. It will be the pain of Shogun (the
>translations, the Edo-jidai uniform kimono, the
>silliness of the whole love story) on a much grander
>scale. It will hurt. It will kill me. And I will go.
>
>Nate
>
>--- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:
> > Masamori Masami wrote:
> >
> > > Bob Burke recently brought up the Satsuma
> > Rebellion of 1877 in one
> > > of his posts, and this got me thinking of "The
> > Last Samurai." This
> > > movie is scheduled to come out in December and
> > from what I've seen
> > > it seems to be kind of accurate and very much like
> > a James Clavell
> > > book (names changed and such). But what do you
> > guys think of it? Do
> > > you think it has the potential to be up there with
> > Shogun and The
> > > Seven Samurai? Or is it just a big Hollywood
> > crapfest to make money
> > > and draw in crowds with big battle scenes?
> >
> > I look at going to it much as I do going to the
> > dentist. I don't want to. I don't like it. I know
> > it'll hurt. But I
> > have to go.
> >
> > Tony
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
>http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com

_________________________________________________________________
Enter for your chance to IM with Bon Jovi, Seal, Bow Wow, or Mary J Blige
using MSN Messenger http://entertainment.msn.com/imastar

Um, no. If you're going to the trouble to make a
movie, how hard is it to get facts correct? It's not
the FICTION part that's painful--it's the details that
could EASILY be made correctly, but aren't.


--- Sara Cooper <saracooper22@...> wrote:

> I have a feeling I'm about to be stoned for heresy,
> but despite all the
> historical inaccurasies can't you still enjoy the
> movie? I mean as a work of
> historical FICTION (you know, based on history but
> mostly made up). Not
> that I won't be bugged by all the little things too.
> I know I'll be sitting
> in the theater shaking my head muttering under my
> breath "no, no, OH
> gimmeabreak! that could NEVER happen, where did they
> get this information?"
> Most movies have been like that for me since I
> became somewhat obsessed with
> Micheal Crichton books :) Anyways, ya'll keep
> saying how you'll hate it but
> still see it. It will hurt. It won't kill me. I'll
> still go.
>
>
> >From: Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...>
> >Reply-To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> >To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] The Last Samurai?
> Good? Bad?
> >Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 15:50:13 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> >Agreed....I think it will be painful. Horribly
> Wrong.
> >And that's on top of how I feel about Tom Cruise in
> >general. It will be the pain of Shogun (the
> >translations, the Edo-jidai uniform kimono, the
> >silliness of the whole love story) on a much
> grander
> >scale. It will hurt. It will kill me. And I will
> go.
> >
> >Nate
> >
> >--- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...>
> wrote:
> > > Masamori Masami wrote:
> > >
> > > > Bob Burke recently brought up the Satsuma
> > > Rebellion of 1877 in one
> > > > of his posts, and this got me thinking of "The
> > > Last Samurai." This
> > > > movie is scheduled to come out in December and
> > > from what I've seen
> > > > it seems to be kind of accurate and very much
> like
> > > a James Clavell
> > > > book (names changed and such). But what do
> you
> > > guys think of it? Do
> > > > you think it has the potential to be up there
> with
> > > Shogun and The
> > > > Seven Samurai? Or is it just a big Hollywood
> > > crapfest to make money
> > > > and draw in crowds with big battle scenes?
> > >
> > > I look at going to it much as I do going to the
> > > dentist. I don't want to. I don't like it. I
> know
> > > it'll hurt. But I
> > > have to go.
> > >
> > > Tony
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >__________________________________
> >Do you Yahoo!?
> >Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site
> design software
> >http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
>
>

_________________________________________________________________

> Enter for your chance to IM with Bon Jovi, Seal, Bow
> Wow, or Mary J Blige
> using MSN Messenger
> http://entertainment.msn.com/imastar
>
>

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Yes! Yes! Yes!

How I'd love to have my own katana on hand to slash any idiot who interrupts
the movie with some snide know-it-all "That couldn't happen!"

Its movie, don't have a hissy fit!

William--

as if you're not going to be that idiot, c'mon! It
will be bad enough for you watching it in
Japan...everyone else around you will think it's a
comedy too!

Nate

--- William&Mikiko Letham <mickey.letham@...>
wrote:

> Yes! Yes! Yes!
>
> How I'd love to have my own katana on hand to slash
> any idiot who interrupts
> the movie with some snide know-it-all "That couldn't
> happen!"
>
> Its movie, don't have a hissy fit!
>
>

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I'll be the idiot paying 3600 yen (that's for two) to see this movie.

Seriously though, can you think of any historical movie that somebody
somewhere didn't take the piss out of it because it wasn't "accurate?". It
seems a knee jerk reaction among some to jump all over a movie trying to
find something wrong just be a pain in the ass to others.

It's one thing when something "wrong" is done for
cinematic effect. We all know that the Nagashino scene
in "Kagemusha" isn't the way it really happened--the
Takeda cavalry didn't die in a 9 minute span from
rapid-fire Oda arqubusiers mowing them down like WWI
German machine gunners against a British "Over the
Top" Charge. But it fits the cinematic effect desired,
so none of us complain about it. (And that's ignoring
the red sky and all that, too)

I'm anticipating that this will not be the case--not
with Tom Cruise in it. They'll mess something up.
Maybe it's just my natural bias against this time
period, and the fact that I'm sure that there will be
a gaudy amount of talk about Bushido and honor and
stereotypical crap, and that some of the language will
be wrong, and the costumes, and other things that
aren't hard to get right will be wrong...

But, I will go and see it, and might be surprised. And
I might like it, despite whatever is wrong. I'm just
not getting my hopes up.

Nate


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hahahahahhahahaha

I agree !

It is only a movie..........................

Matt

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: William&Mikiko Letham [mailto:mickey.letham@...]
Verzonden: maandag 1 september 2003 2:17
Aan: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [samuraihistory] The Last Samurai? Good? Bad?


Yes! Yes! Yes!

How I'd love to have my own katana on hand to slash any idiot who
interrupts
the movie with some snide know-it-all "That couldn't happen!"

Its movie, don't have a hissy fit!



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

All-
unfortunately we can already see the mistakes made, in the
trailer there is a cavalry charge not unlike the one in Ran!
-t

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well, I got my hands on what I have been told is a very early draft
of 'The Last Samurai', but although you have to keep in mind that it
is an early draft (July 20th, 2001) there were some despicably
typical mistakes. Here is an excerpt:

---------------------
-JAMES starts to turn away. HIROSHI finally speaks.

HIROSHI
On the day of battle, a champion is chosen. He rides ahead of his
army, meets the challenger of the enemy. The victor brings great
acclaim to himself, to his clan. A dozen times I rode out as
champion, a dozen men I killed. In only one contest did I know
fear. Our combat seemed to last an eternity, by the grace of some
god I prevailed... I had never been more proud to be samurai, to
take an enemy's head. I raised it high on my pike... Learned later
the warrior's son, a six-year old boy, had watched it all from the
castle walls. That boy was Daigo Masakado.
----------------------

That looks to me like something that would have been pretty much
outdated even in the 15th century, let alone the 19th, and there is
of course the obligatory trip to the geisha house. There are lots
of things like that - some things that make it little better than
the meiji-era samurai classic "the barbarian and the geisha".
although, like I said, assuming this is truly an early version of
the script, I HOPE they would have worked out the most obvious
problems. The first scene of the movie, if they keep it as I have
here, should be real good, though. The battle scenes have potential
to say the least.

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
wrote:

> It's one thing when something "wrong" is done for
> cinematic effect. We all know that the Nagashino scene
> in "Kagemusha" isn't the way it really happened--the
> Takeda cavalry didn't die in a 9 minute span from
> rapid-fire Oda arqubusiers mowing them down like WWI
> German machine gunners against a British "Over the
> Top" Charge. But it fits the cinematic effect desired,
> so none of us complain about it. (And that's ignoring
> the red sky and all that, too)
>
> I'm anticipating that this will not be the case--not
> with Tom Cruise in it. They'll mess something up.
> Maybe it's just my natural bias against this time
> period, and the fact that I'm sure that there will be
> a gaudy amount of talk about Bushido and honor and
> stereotypical crap, and that some of the language will
> be wrong, and the costumes, and other things that
> aren't hard to get right will be wrong...
>
> But, I will go and see it, and might be surprised. And
> I might like it, despite whatever is wrong. I'm just
> not getting my hopes up.
>
> Nate
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com

Thanks, that's cool that it really happened. I'm on a Kurosawa
shopping spree, so far I have Seven Samurai and Ran, I'm aiming next
at either The Hidden Fortress or Throne of Blood, both look really
good, after that Yojimbo, etc...

As for The Last Samurai, last week I read that it is directed by
Edward Zwick, who was the director of Glory, an american civil war
movie, and even though I'm sure it has many historical flaws
(including some of the main characters being made up) it treated the
subject matter with respect and was very well done (it's one of my
favorite), so now I have a lil bit more hope with Last Samurai...

Sam the Miburo

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Masamori Masami"
wrote:

> Shogun was a mini-series, 10 hours, and is coming out on DVD in
> Sept. I also believe they made a shorter tv movie of Shogun, that
> probaly isnt that good since they would have to cut out 8-7 hours

of

> the storyline.
>
> Kagemusha is infact about Takeda Shingen and how after he died,

due

> to a bullet wound, his head generals got a double to pretend to be
> him. They managed to hide his death for a year, I believe. The

movie

> has Nobunaga and Ieyasu in it, but its not about Nobunaga. By the
> way, this did actually happen.
>
> Ive seen a few Kurosawa films, and they seem very accurate. I
> recommend any Kurosawa film.
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Saitoh Hajime"
> wrote:
> > Is Shogun also a movie? I thought it was only a book...
> >
> > What do you guys think of the Kurosawa samurai movies, are they
> > historically accurate? I hear that Kagemusha is about using a
> double
> > of Oda Nobunaga to hide his death. Was this fiction or are there
> at
> > least some rumors to it?
> >
> > The Wolf of Mibu
> >
> >
> > --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
> > wrote:
> > > Agreed....I think it will be painful. Horribly Wrong.
> > > And that's on top of how I feel about Tom Cruise in
> > > general. It will be the pain of Shogun (the
> > > translations, the Edo-jidai uniform kimono, the
> > > silliness of the whole love story) on a much grander
> > > scale. It will hurt. It will kill me. And I will go.
> > >
> > > Nate
> > >
> > > --- "Anthony J. Bryant" wrote:
> > > > Masamori Masami wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Bob Burke recently brought up the Satsuma
> > > > Rebellion of 1877 in one
> > > > > of his posts, and this got me thinking of "The
> > > > Last Samurai." This
> > > > > movie is scheduled to come out in December and
> > > > from what I've seen
> > > > > it seems to be kind of accurate and very much like
> > > > a James Clavell
> > > > > book (names changed and such). But what do you
> > > > guys think of it? Do
> > > > > you think it has the potential to be up there with
> > > > Shogun and The
> > > > > Seven Samurai? Or is it just a big Hollywood
> > > > crapfest to make money
> > > > > and draw in crowds with big battle scenes?
> > > >
> > > > I look at going to it much as I do going to the
> > > > dentist. I don't want to. I don't like it. I know
> > > > it'll hurt. But I
> > > > have to go.
> > > >
> > > > Tony
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> > > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com

Amen, nit-picking brother. I know the feeling, when you really know
a lot about something and you see it raped on the big-screen (or
people just keep getting it wrong)...that's just plain annoying.
More than annoying. And then people find YOU annoying for pointing
out every mistake, lol!

Miburo Sam

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
wrote:

> You and I are pretty anal, though. I'll admit it--you?
> It's why I've been killing myself putting together a
> presentation for work--actually, 2. I'm tired of
> hearing soldiers say the north Koreans have x tank or
> y vehicle when they DON'T. So I've put together the
> mother of all north Korean and south Korean vehicle ID
> classes, with about 250 slides each. It's sick. My
> lieutenant thinks I'm obsessed. I probably am. But
> it's because people keep getting things WRONG...and
> I'm sick of it.
>
> Nate
>
> --- "Anthony J. Bryant" wrote:
> > Eponymous13@a... wrote:
> >
> > > Hey there.
> > > This may sound like dumb question, but AS A
> > WORK OF FICTION, is Shogun
> > > any good? Or is it a mire of a story like I found
> > Tale of the Heike to be?
> > > Just wondering, b/c I'm thinking of reading it.
> > (And yes, I am planning to
> > > give Tale another honest try someday, just not
> > right now.)
> > >
> >
> > It depends on what you consider to be "fiction."
> >
> > To me, it fails greatly in the historical accuracy,
> > historical verisimilitude, and linguistic accuracy
> > (etc.) tests.
> > To some people, that's not a problem.
> >
> > Let me give you an example. In the current issue of
> > Hitchcock Magazine, there's a "Heian period" murder
> > mystery. It's
> > set in the eleventh century. Except I recognize the
> > Japanese story used as the basis for it -- a story
> > that took
> > place a century later (because there was a war that
> > figured in the background, and one of the characters
> > is
> > historical). I also recognized that the author made
> > some anachronisms with names (using a very late
> > period name for a
> > woman character in the story). I was also thrown off
> > because of mentions of cotton clothing and candles,
> > neither of
> > which existed in Japan during the Heian period.
> > So.... is that a good story? To some, yes. To me,
> > no. There was too
> > much wrong with it that kept throwing me *out* of
> > the story.
> >
> > Like some people stop reading detective fiction
> > where someone puts a silencer on a revolver. Or
> > removes "the clip"
> > from a revolver. Both of which I see often -- it
> > means the writer really doesn't know guns, and
> > hasn't done the
> > research -- it makes me wonder what else might be
> > wrong that I *don't* know about.
> >
> > Tony
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com

Lol, would you believe I also started to be picky about movies AFTER
I started reading Crichton books? Damn his attention to detail!

p.d. Now that I think of it, he would be perfect to write a samurai
story, even if he's leaning too much towards Hollywood lately...

Miburo Sam


--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Sara Cooper"
wrote:

> I have a feeling I'm about to be stoned for heresy, but despite

all the

> historical inaccurasies can't you still enjoy the movie? I mean as

a work of

> historical FICTION (you know, based on history but mostly made

up). Not

> that I won't be bugged by all the little things too. I know I'll

be sitting

> in the theater shaking my head muttering under my breath "no, no,

OH

> gimmeabreak! that could NEVER happen, where did they get this

information?"

> Most movies have been like that for me since I became somewhat

obsessed with

> Micheal Crichton books :) Anyways, ya'll keep saying how you'll

hate it but

> still see it. It will hurt. It won't kill me. I'll still go.
>
>
> >From: Nate Ledbetter
> >Reply-To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> >To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] The Last Samurai? Good? Bad?
> >Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 15:50:13 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> >Agreed....I think it will be painful. Horribly Wrong.
> >And that's on top of how I feel about Tom Cruise in
> >general. It will be the pain of Shogun (the
> >translations, the Edo-jidai uniform kimono, the
> >silliness of the whole love story) on a much grander
> >scale. It will hurt. It will kill me. And I will go.
> >
> >Nate
> >
> >--- "Anthony J. Bryant" wrote:
> > > Masamori Masami wrote:
> > >
> > > > Bob Burke recently brought up the Satsuma
> > > Rebellion of 1877 in one
> > > > of his posts, and this got me thinking of "The
> > > Last Samurai." This
> > > > movie is scheduled to come out in December and
> > > from what I've seen
> > > > it seems to be kind of accurate and very much like
> > > a James Clavell
> > > > book (names changed and such). But what do you
> > > guys think of it? Do
> > > > you think it has the potential to be up there with
> > > Shogun and The
> > > > Seven Samurai? Or is it just a big Hollywood
> > > crapfest to make money
> > > > and draw in crowds with big battle scenes?
> > >
> > > I look at going to it much as I do going to the
> > > dentist. I don't want to. I don't like it. I know
> > > it'll hurt. But I
> > > have to go.
> > >
> > > Tony
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >__________________________________
> >Do you Yahoo!?
> >Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> >http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Enter for your chance to IM with Bon Jovi, Seal, Bow Wow, or Mary

J Blige

> using MSN Messenger http://entertainment.msn.com/imastar

But at the same time, if you're in "the know", share it! ;)

Phil

Saitoh Hajime <the_sam_99@...> wrote:
Amen, nit-picking brother. I know the feeling, when you really know
a lot about something and you see it raped on the big-screen (or
people just keep getting it wrong)...that's just plain annoying.
More than annoying. And then people find YOU annoying for pointing
out every mistake, lol!

Miburo Sam

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
wrote:

> You and I are pretty anal, though. I'll admit it--you?
> It's why I've been killing myself putting together a
> presentation for work--actually, 2. I'm tired of
> hearing soldiers say the north Koreans have x tank or
> y vehicle when they DON'T. So I've put together the
> mother of all north Korean and south Korean vehicle ID
> classes, with about 250 slides each. It's sick. My
> lieutenant thinks I'm obsessed. I probably am. But
> it's because people keep getting things WRONG...and
> I'm sick of it.
>
> Nate

--- Saitoh Hajime <the_sam_99@...> wrote:

>even though I'm sure it has many
> historical flaws
> (including some of the main characters being made
> up) it treated the
> subject matter with respect and was very well done
> (it's one of my
> favorite), so now I have a lil bit more hope with
> Last Samurai...

Made up characters is one thing--that's what fiction
is all about. I don't expect a documentary, for
heaven's sake. But I'm not encouraged by the script
clip about the duel challenge...are you kidding me?

Nate


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
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http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com

Yep, it was VERY corny...even for someone who knows nothing about
samurai.

Sam the Miburo


--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
wrote:

>
> --- Saitoh Hajime wrote:
>
> >even though I'm sure it has many
> > historical flaws
> > (including some of the main characters being made
> > up) it treated the
> > subject matter with respect and was very well done
> > (it's one of my
> > favorite), so now I have a lil bit more hope with
> > Last Samurai...
>
> Made up characters is one thing--that's what fiction
> is all about. I don't expect a documentary, for
> heaven's sake. But I'm not encouraged by the script
> clip about the duel challenge...are you kidding me?
>
> Nate
>
>
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