Re: Actual Oniwabanshuu history facts

> Hey- thanx heaps. Did Hanzo have a nephew (or uncle)
> known as the demon Hanzo or is that a mistranslation
> of Ghost? I know there are very subtle differences
> in the Japanese language and Demon does not
> neccessarily imply Evil.In the Shinto faith there
> seem to be about a million Demons or spirits for
> every thing under the sun. Was the Iga Ryu ever
> formally known as the Shadows of Iga or is that a
> modern group-I know they exist now as a self defence
> school decended from Steven Hayes..............I
> understand that Women were used at some point in
> Intelligence and "informant" type positions- when
> did that start?(If I am correct) thanx - EJ
>
> Richardson Paul <umaryu@...> wrote:Hi
>
> hanzo hattori did not use women in any way.
>
> He was a senior advisor regrading Ninja style
> activities to Tokugawa ieyasu
>
> this is what I have on Hanzo Hattori
>
>
> Hanzo Hattori came from the Kamihattori branch of
> the
> Hattori family. It is not fully known if he came
> from
> the Heitaro or the Chigachi line (another branch of
> the Kamihattori family).
>
>
> As Iga was no longer safe for their survival, the
> three branches of the Hattori family dispersed to
> different area's of Japan. The Kamihattori fled to
> Nagaoka in Echigo Hattori Masanari, and his son
> Hattori Hanzo (both from the Kamihattori), swore
> allegiance to Tokugawa Ieyasu. Hanzo while working
> for
> the Tokugawa held the rank of 'Shinobi Metsuke', and
> he had served Ieyasu's grandfather Matsudaira
> Kiyoyasu. Hanzo later, with a friend, Shiro Tarao
> who
> was a Koga Ninja, helped Tokugawa Ieyasu flee across
> Japan. They helped get Ieyasu to Okazakijo safely,
> utilising the five ways of fleeing, and by setting
> up
> special defensive formations along the road, and by
> using Ninja methods of running. This all helped the
> Tokugawa eventually succeed as Shoguns. The Hattori
> were not "Watari Ninja" (Ninja who moved around from
> one Daimyo to another), they were loyal to the
> Tokugawa, and remained in their service for many
> generations.
>
> When Tokugawa Ieyasu raided Uzichijo of Mikawa at
> night, Hanzo was young man of 16 years. For the
> skills
> that he used during the battle, he earned himself a
> commendation. He was given the name "Hanzo the
> Ghost".
> Even Ieyasu recognised his skill. Today in the
> province of Kawachi the name Hanzo is still widely
> in
> use. In his later years Hanzo was also known as
> "Hanzo
> the great lancer" (Yari no Hanzo).
>
> Hanzo was placed in charge of the Hassenishi
> Samurai,
> and then came to be known as "Hattori Hanzo Iwami no
> Kami".
>
> At one time Hanzo had over 200 Ninja working with
> him,
> each held the rank of Doshin. He developed problems
> with these Ninja and he found it difficult to
> control
> them, and he relieved them of their services. He
> then
> employed many more Ninja from Iga. Sometime later in
> his life, he became a Monk.
>
> Hanzo Hattori was so famous that in the province of
> Mikawa songs were written about him
>
> Some say that Hanzo Hattori met his death on 4th
> December 1596, while trying to bring the Ninja of
> the
> Fuma Ryu to justice. The date must be wrong as Hanzo
> helped Ieyasu in the early 1600"s. The story of his
> death says that the Fuma Kainin (he had two
> protruding
> teeth), and his Fuma Ryu originally came from
> Kanagawa. In small boats Hanzo and his men chased
> the
> Fuma out to sea. This was a mistake on the behalf of
> Hanzo as the Fuma were specialists in the use of
> water, and several swam under water, and began
> dismantling the rudders of the boats belonging to
> Hanzo. As their boats were now disabled Hanzo's men
> decided to jump overboard, and swim to the near by
> shore. When they entered the water, they discovered
> that the water was covered with oil. To which the
> Fuma
> Ryu Ninja set fire, killing all of the Tokugawa
> Samurai and Ninja including Hattori Hanzo.
>
>
> paul Richardson
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site
> design software
> http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
>
> Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
>
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> ---
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site
> design software
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
>

> You're thinking of Watanabe Hanzo, who was known as
> "Devil" (Oni) Hanzo for his ferocity in battle.
> Watanabe was also a retainer of the Tokugawa.
>
> Nate
>
> --- eric johnson <ronin121293@...> wrote:
> > Hey- thanx heaps. Did Hanzo have a nephew (or
> uncle)
> > known as the demon Hanzo or is that a
> mistranslation
> > of Ghost? I know there are very subtle differences
> > in the Japanese language and Demon does not
> > neccessarily imply Evil.In the Shinto faith there
> > seem to be about a million Demons or spirits for
> > every thing under the sun. Was the Iga Ryu ever
> > formally known as the Shadows of Iga or is that a
> > modern group-I know they exist now as a self
> defence
> > school decended from Steven Hayes..............I
> > understand that Women were used at some point in
> > Intelligence and "informant" type positions- when
> > did that start?(If I am correct) thanx - EJ
> >
> > Richardson Paul <umaryu@...> wrote:Hi
> >
> > hanzo hattori did not use women in any way.
> >
> > He was a senior advisor regrading Ninja style
> > activities to Tokugawa ieyasu
> >
> > this is what I have on Hanzo Hattori
> >
> >
> > Hanzo Hattori came from the Kamihattori branch of
> > the
> > Hattori family. It is not fully known if he came
> > from
> > the Heitaro or the Chigachi line (another branch
> of
> > the Kamihattori family).
> >
> >
> > As Iga was no longer safe for their survival, the
> > three branches of the Hattori family dispersed to
> > different area's of Japan. The Kamihattori fled to
> > Nagaoka in Echigo Hattori Masanari, and his son
> > Hattori Hanzo (both from the Kamihattori), swore
> > allegiance to Tokugawa Ieyasu. Hanzo while working
> > for
> > the Tokugawa held the rank of 'Shinobi Metsuke',
> and
> > he had served Ieyasu's grandfather Matsudaira
> > Kiyoyasu. Hanzo later, with a friend, Shiro Tarao
> > who
> > was a Koga Ninja, helped Tokugawa Ieyasu flee
> across
> > Japan. They helped get Ieyasu to Okazakijo safely,
> > utilising the five ways of fleeing, and by setting
> > up
> > special defensive formations along the road, and
> by
> > using Ninja methods of running. This all helped
> the
> > Tokugawa eventually succeed as Shoguns. The
> Hattori
> > were not "Watari Ninja" (Ninja who moved around
> from
> > one Daimyo to another), they were loyal to the
> > Tokugawa, and remained in their service for many
> > generations.
> >
> > When Tokugawa Ieyasu raided Uzichijo of Mikawa at
> > night, Hanzo was young man of 16 years. For the
> > skills
> > that he used during the battle, he earned himself
> a
> > commendation. He was given the name "Hanzo the
> > Ghost".
> > Even Ieyasu recognised his skill. Today in the
> > province of Kawachi the name Hanzo is still widely
> > in
> > use. In his later years Hanzo was also known as
> > "Hanzo
> > the great lancer" (Yari no Hanzo).
> >
> > Hanzo was placed in charge of the Hassenishi
> > Samurai,
> > and then came to be known as "Hattori Hanzo Iwami
> no
> > Kami".
> >
> > At one time Hanzo had over 200 Ninja working with
> > him,
> > each held the rank of Doshin. He developed
> problems
> > with these Ninja and he found it difficult to
> > control
> > them, and he relieved them of their services. He
> > then
> > employed many more Ninja from Iga. Sometime later
> in
> > his life, he became a Monk.
> >
> > Hanzo Hattori was so famous that in the province
> of
> > Mikawa songs were written about him
> >
> > Some say that Hanzo Hattori met his death on 4th
> > December 1596, while trying to bring the Ninja of
> > the
> > Fuma Ryu to justice. The date must be wrong as
> Hanzo
> > helped Ieyasu in the early 1600"s. The story of
> his
> > death says that the Fuma Kainin (he had two
> > protruding
> > teeth), and his Fuma Ryu originally came from
> > Kanagawa. In small boats Hanzo and his men chased
> > the
> > Fuma out to sea. This was a mistake on the behalf
> of
> > Hanzo as the Fuma were specialists in the use of
> > water, and several swam under water, and began
> > dismantling the rudders of the boats belonging to
> > Hanzo. As their boats were now disabled Hanzo's
> men
> > decided to jump overboard, and swim to the near by
> > shore. When they entered the water, they
> discovered
> > that the water was covered with oil. To which the
> > Fuma
> > Ryu Ninja set fire, killing all of the Tokugawa
> > Samurai and Ninja including Hattori Hanzo.
> >
> >
> > paul Richardson
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site
> > design software
> > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
> >
> > Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> > ---
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> > Terms of Service.
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site
> > design software
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> > removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site
> design software
> http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
>

> I am also sure ninjas casted samurai in a negative light as well.
> Generally ninjas were not of samurai class, (anyone know any
> exceptions?) they were made up of the other classes, since they
> couldn't become samurai, they trained and became ninjas instead, and
> I'm sure being oppressed by the samurai class led to animosity
> towards them, therefore once again, "bitter enemies."

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, cabbit10@c... wrote:
> *Comes out of lurk mode*
>
> No, No, No!
>
> This again is a fiction!
>
> If you're a spy, you don't exactly go around carrying a sign that
says "Ninja"
> and then complain to the "Ninja Union" when the samurai make fun
of
> your "pajamas".
>
> Samurai and Ninja were co-workers, both doing the work of their
lords.
>
> Ninja were often from samurai families and there was little if any
animosity
> because most of the time the samurai, and in some cases even
individual ninja,
> didn't know who else in their lord's employ were actually ninja!
>
> Most Samurai knew that their lords employed ninjas, but they
rarely if ever
> knew who the ninja(s) were. They could be anyone from a lowly
kitchen worker,
> to a fully ranked and privleged Samurai.
>
> For a historical example of how ninja and samurai worked, read the
book "Taiko"
> it contains fairly accurate accounts of how ninja and samurai
worked together.
>
> FYI: Ninja rarely if ever wore outfits like the movies show them
wearing. They
> simply dressed like everyone else did.
>
> -Thom
> > I am also sure ninjas casted samurai in a negative light as
well.
> > Generally ninjas were not of samurai class, (anyone know any
> > exceptions?) they were made up of the other classes, since they
> > couldn't become samurai, they trained and became ninjas instead,
and
> > I'm sure being oppressed by the samurai class led to animosity
> > towards them, therefore once again, "bitter enemies."

----- Original Message -----
From: Masamori Masami
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 10:33 AM
Subject: [samuraihistory] Re: Actual Oniwabanshuu history facts

-------
I am also sure ninjas casted samurai in a negative light as well.
Generally ninjas were not of samurai class, (anyone know any
exceptions?) they were made up of the other classes, since they
couldn't become samurai,
-------

Otamo no Saijin, Saburo Yoshimori, Kusunoki, Togakure Daisuke II aka. Minamoto no Kanesada, Hattori Hanzo and so on... There used to be 45-66 shinobi families (22? Ryuha's) in Iga area and 53 families (6? Ryuha's) in souhern Shiga (Koga) area, most of them from buke glass. And also there was many other families/ ryu's (69-73), in other locations (17+) .
-SWJL








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Masamori Masami" <oni_shogun@...>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 6:39 PM
Subject: [samuraihistory] Re: Actual Oniwabanshuu history facts


> well this is new to me, i thought peasents made up the majority of
> ninja clans, i personally dont know that much about ninjas, im a
> samurai guy. So it seems the info i got on ninja-samurai relations
> was the steriotipical hollywood crap, thanks for clearing that up.
>
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, cabbit10@c... wrote:
> > *Comes out of lurk mode*
> >
> > No, No, No!
> >
> > This again is a fiction!
> >
> > If you're a spy, you don't exactly go around carrying a sign that
> says "Ninja"
> > and then complain to the "Ninja Union" when the samurai make fun
> of
> > your "pajamas".
> >
> > Samurai and Ninja were co-workers, both doing the work of their
> lords.
> >
> > Ninja were often from samurai families and there was little if any
> animosity
> > because most of the time the samurai, and in some cases even
> individual ninja,
> > didn't know who else in their lord's employ were actually ninja!
> >
> > Most Samurai knew that their lords employed ninjas, but they
> rarely if ever
> > knew who the ninja(s) were. They could be anyone from a lowly
> kitchen worker,
> > to a fully ranked and privleged Samurai.
> >
> > For a historical example of how ninja and samurai worked, read the
> book "Taiko"
> > it contains fairly accurate accounts of how ninja and samurai
> worked together.
> >
> > FYI: Ninja rarely if ever wore outfits like the movies show them
> wearing. They
> > simply dressed like everyone else did.
> >
> > -Thom
> > > I am also sure ninjas casted samurai in a negative light as
> well.
> > > Generally ninjas were not of samurai class, (anyone know any
> > > exceptions?) they were made up of the other classes, since they
> > > couldn't become samurai, they trained and became ninjas instead,
> and
> > > I'm sure being oppressed by the samurai class led to animosity
> > > towards them, therefore once again, "bitter enemies."
>
>
>
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> ---
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

> I am also sure ninjas casted samurai in a negative light as well.
> Generally ninjas were not of samurai class, (anyone know any
> exceptions?) they were made up of the other classes, since they
> couldn't become samurai, they trained and became ninjas instead, and
> I'm sure being oppressed by the samurai class led to animosity
> towards them, therefore once again, "bitter enemies."

> Hi there.
> Just a question): If in most cases, Samurai and Ninja did not get on
> well with each other, would one exception to this be the Hojo and their
> retainer, the Fuma? Just asking. :-D
>
> Later
> Tim
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> ---
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

> Hi there. Again. :-D
> Question: were women ever ninja, and if so, what were they called? I
> seem to remember from somewhere that women could be ninja, but were not called
> that. Any thoughts?
>
> Later
> Tim
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> ---
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

> Hi there. Again. :-D
> Question: were women ever ninja, and if so,

> seem to remember from somewhere that women could be

> that. Any thoughts?
>
> Later
> Tim
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been

>
>
>
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> ---
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to

>
>

> Hi
>
> I have heard this also but have no refernce points for
> it. I was using the term as told to me years ago by
> hatsumi masaaki
>
> paul
>
>
> --- Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...>
> wrote:
>
> ---------------------------------
> My understanding of 'Kunoichi' is that it is simply a
> breakdown of
> the Japanese kanji for 'woman' (onna) -- The three
> 'katakana' symbols
> that make up kunoichi are also the three strokes that
> make up 'onna' -
> the 'ku' is the left, the 'no' is the right hand
> slash, and
> the 'ichi' is the line across the top. basically, if
> you slide the
> katakana 'ku no ichi' together you get 'onna'.
>
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Richardson Paul
>
> wrote:
> > Hi
> >
> > female ninja are called kunoichi
> >
> > the ku no ichi are 3 different katakana and is I am
> > told supposed to represent the 9 (ku) orifices that
> > men have +1 (ichi) extra that women have.
> >
> > who know s this may be also be myth
> >
> > paul
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT
>
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> ---
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> Terms of Service.
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
>
>
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> ---
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>