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Tough one: shincho vs. shinsen gumis

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#2042 [2003-08-13 17:33:24]

Tough one: shincho vs. shinsen gumis

by merridewe

Hi all,

I'm new. Hope I'm in the right place to ask this. I'm researching
key figures of the Shinsengumi, particularly Isami Kondo and
Kamo Serizawa. They were of course members of the
Shinsengumi, but I've also run accross something called the
Shinchogumi. It that the same thing? If not, what is it?

Any help much appreciated,

St. John Lord Merridewe

[Next #2046]

#2046 [2003-08-14 12:27:52]

Re: Tough one: shincho vs. shinsen gumis

by miburo_saitoh

As far as I know, the Shinsengumi and the Roujingumi were the same
group, don't know about that Shinchogumi, though.

The Wolf of Mibu


--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "merridewe"
wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm new. Hope I'm in the right place to ask this. I'm researching
> key figures of the Shinsengumi, particularly Isami Kondo and
> Kamo Serizawa. They were of course members of the
> Shinsengumi, but I've also run accross something called the
> Shinchogumi. It that the same thing? If not, what is it?
>
> Any help much appreciated,
>
> St. John Lord Merridewe

[Previous #2042] [Next #2053]

#2053 [2003-08-15 11:51:37]

Re: Tough one: shincho vs. shinsen gumis

by serizawakamo

Shinchogumi is not Shinsengumi. Shinchogumi was also derived from the
Roshitai, just like the Shinsengumi, but the Shinsengumi members
stayed in Kyoto while the Shinchogumi ones retreated back to Edo.

I believe you have already got this book, but if not perhaps you can
give a look at "Samurai Sketches", by Romulus Hillsborough. It is a
bit novelized, but still a very interesting depiction (and very well
researched) of some Shinsengumi members, including Isami Kondo and
Kamo Serizawa.

Hope that helped...



> Hi all,
>
> I'm new. Hope I'm in the right place to ask this. I'm researching
> key figures of the Shinsengumi, particularly Isami Kondo and
> Kamo Serizawa. They were of course members of the
> Shinsengumi, but I've also run accross something called the
> Shinchogumi. It that the same thing? If not, what is it?
>
> Any help much appreciated,
>
> St. John Lord Merridewe

[Previous #2046] [Next #2081]

#2081 [2003-08-19 11:23:23]

Re: Tough one: shincho vs. shinsen gumis

by merridewe

Thanks for this. OK then I have one more question: What is the
Roshitai?

Thanks again,

St. John Lord Merridewe

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "serizawakamo" <
serizawakamo@y...> wrote:
> Shinchogumi is not Shinsengumi. Shinchogumi was also
derived from the
> Roshitai, just like the Shinsengumi, but the Shinsengumi
members
> stayed in Kyoto while the Shinchogumi ones retreated back to
Edo.
>
> I believe you have already got this book, but if not perhaps you
can
> give a look at "Samurai Sketches", by Romulus Hillsborough. It
is a
> bit novelized, but still a very interesting depiction (and very well
> researched) of some Shinsengumi members, including Isami
Kondo and
> Kamo Serizawa.
>
> Hope that helped...
>
>
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I'm new. Hope I'm in the right place to ask this. I'm
researching
> > key figures of the Shinsengumi, particularly Isami Kondo and
> > Kamo Serizawa. They were of course members of the
> > Shinsengumi, but I've also run accross something called the
> > Shinchogumi. It that the same thing? If not, what is it?
> >
> > Any help much appreciated,
> >
> > St. John Lord Merridewe

[Previous #2053] [Next #2083]

#2083 [2003-08-19 12:31:37]

Re: Tough one: shincho vs. shinsen gumis

by shogunmasami

After the arrival of Commodore Perry, Japan was thrown into chaos
and fear. Many samurais, especially those of lower ranks, began to
doubt the power of the Shogunate in defending the country against
foreign powers, especially when they had seen the armed blackships.
The slogan "Sonno-Joi" (Rever the emperor, dispel the barbarians)
was winning more and more support, such that samurais desert their
hans to come to Kyoto to join the revolutionary movements. (In those
days deserting your han can be one of the most condemned sins - once
you desert, you can never return to it, on pain of death.)

Such roshis (masterless samurais, but not ronins and definitely not
rurounis) increased in Kyoto, causing more and more disturbances at
the capital. In those early days of unsatisfied feelings, most of
the roshis still did not have a clear idea of what movement or who
they should follow. All they knew was that they were impatient and
eager to do something to defend Japan. There were myriads of schools
of thought - Sonno-joi, open up the country to learn from the gaijin
and in turn attact them using the same technologies, support the
Bakufu - as Watsuki once remarked, it was an era where 100 people
may hold 100 different arguments and you can't say who's wrong. It's
one factor which makes this era as tumultuous and interesting as it
is. The Bakufu decided that it would be to their advantage if they
took such roshis without any stand yet into their service, rather
than letting them roam about the capital. Hence, Roshi-tais (bands
of wave samurais) were formed and roshis enlisted under respective
Bakufu samurais, where the "entry requirements" were one's sword
skills (kenjutsu matches, something like an exam, were held.) This
happened in 1863 or 3rd Year of Bunkyuu, one year after Kaoru's
birth.

*note direct from a website


--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "merridewe"
wrote:
> Thanks for this. OK then I have one more question: What is the
> Roshitai?
>
> Thanks again,
>
> St. John Lord Merridewe
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "serizawakamo" <
> serizawakamo@y...> wrote:
> > Shinchogumi is not Shinsengumi. Shinchogumi was also
> derived from the
> > Roshitai, just like the Shinsengumi, but the Shinsengumi
> members
> > stayed in Kyoto while the Shinchogumi ones retreated back to
> Edo.
> >
> > I believe you have already got this book, but if not perhaps you
> can
> > give a look at "Samurai Sketches", by Romulus Hillsborough. It
> is a
> > bit novelized, but still a very interesting depiction (and very
well
> > researched) of some Shinsengumi members, including Isami
> Kondo and
> > Kamo Serizawa.
> >
> > Hope that helped...
> >
> >
> >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > I'm new. Hope I'm in the right place to ask this. I'm
> researching
> > > key figures of the Shinsengumi, particularly Isami Kondo and
> > > Kamo Serizawa. They were of course members of the
> > > Shinsengumi, but I've also run accross something called the
> > > Shinchogumi. It that the same thing? If not, what is it?
> > >
> > > Any help much appreciated,
> > >
> > > St. John Lord Merridewe

[Previous #2081] [Next #2084]

#2084 [2003-08-19 19:21:18]

Re: Tough one: shincho vs. shinsen gumis

by shogunmasami

NOTE:
Just realized that "This happened in 1863 or 3rd Year of Bunkyuu,
one year after Kaoru's birth." was put in with the post at the end.
Please ignore, that last sentence was just refering to an
anime/manga called "Rurouni Kenshin" and was just comparing
historical background with that anime/manga.


--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Masamori Masami"
wrote:
> After the arrival of Commodore Perry, Japan was thrown into chaos
> and fear. Many samurais, especially those of lower ranks, began to
> doubt the power of the Shogunate in defending the country against
> foreign powers, especially when they had seen the armed
blackships.
> The slogan "Sonno-Joi" (Rever the emperor, dispel the barbarians)
> was winning more and more support, such that samurais desert their
> hans to come to Kyoto to join the revolutionary movements. (In
those
> days deserting your han can be one of the most condemned sins -
once
> you desert, you can never return to it, on pain of death.)
>
> Such roshis (masterless samurais, but not ronins and definitely
not
> rurounis) increased in Kyoto, causing more and more disturbances
at
> the capital. In those early days of unsatisfied feelings, most of
> the roshis still did not have a clear idea of what movement or who
> they should follow. All they knew was that they were impatient and
> eager to do something to defend Japan. There were myriads of
schools
> of thought - Sonno-joi, open up the country to learn from the
gaijin
> and in turn attact them using the same technologies, support the
> Bakufu - as Watsuki once remarked, it was an era where 100 people
> may hold 100 different arguments and you can't say who's wrong.
It's
> one factor which makes this era as tumultuous and interesting as
it
> is. The Bakufu decided that it would be to their advantage if they
> took such roshis without any stand yet into their service, rather
> than letting them roam about the capital. Hence, Roshi-tais (bands
> of wave samurais) were formed and roshis enlisted under respective
> Bakufu samurais, where the "entry requirements" were one's sword
> skills (kenjutsu matches, something like an exam, were held.) This
> happened in 1863 or 3rd Year of Bunkyuu, one year after Kaoru's
> birth.
>
> *note direct from a website

[Previous #2083] [Next #2099]

#2099 [2003-08-20 08:08:53]

Re: Tough one: shincho vs. shinsen gumis

by miburo_saitoh

I thought that "rurouni" was a word Watsuki Nobuhiro "invented" for
his manga RUROUNI KENSHIN, yet apparently there's a slight difference
between it and "ronin" ("roshis", I assume, mean that this are
unemployed samurai by choice), and it may not have been "invented" at
all by him. What is that difference? I think that this info was taken
from a RK site, so maybe you don't know the answer, but in case
anyone knows, can you clarify?

p.d. how many messages one (more or less) has to post to get out of
the moderated list? I understand the reasons behind it, but it's a
bit unnerving posting something and then having to wait a while to
see it on the boards. Just asking!


The Wolf of Mibu



--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Masamori Masami"
wrote:
> After the arrival of Commodore Perry, Japan was thrown into chaos
> and fear. Many samurais, especially those of lower ranks, began to
> doubt the power of the Shogunate in defending the country against
> foreign powers, especially when they had seen the armed blackships.
> The slogan "Sonno-Joi" (Rever the emperor, dispel the barbarians)
> was winning more and more support, such that samurais desert their
> hans to come to Kyoto to join the revolutionary movements. (In
those
> days deserting your han can be one of the most condemned sins -
once
> you desert, you can never return to it, on pain of death.)
>
> Such roshis (masterless samurais, but not ronins and definitely not
> rurounis) increased in Kyoto, causing more and more disturbances at
> the capital. In those early days of unsatisfied feelings, most of
> the roshis still did not have a clear idea of what movement or who
> they should follow. All they knew was that they were impatient and
> eager to do something to defend Japan. There were myriads of
schools
> of thought - Sonno-joi, open up the country to learn from the
gaijin
> and in turn attact them using the same technologies, support the
> Bakufu - as Watsuki once remarked, it was an era where 100 people
> may hold 100 different arguments and you can't say who's wrong.
It's
> one factor which makes this era as tumultuous and interesting as it
> is. The Bakufu decided that it would be to their advantage if they
> took such roshis without any stand yet into their service, rather
> than letting them roam about the capital. Hence, Roshi-tais (bands
> of wave samurais) were formed and roshis enlisted under respective
> Bakufu samurais, where the "entry requirements" were one's sword
> skills (kenjutsu matches, something like an exam, were held.) This
> happened in 1863 or 3rd Year of Bunkyuu, one year after Kaoru's
> birth.
>
> *note direct from a website
>
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "merridewe"
> wrote:
> > Thanks for this. OK then I have one more question: What is the
> > Roshitai?
> >
> > Thanks again,
> >
> > St. John Lord Merridewe
> >
> > --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "serizawakamo" <
> > serizawakamo@y...> wrote:
> > > Shinchogumi is not Shinsengumi. Shinchogumi was also
> > derived from the
> > > Roshitai, just like the Shinsengumi, but the Shinsengumi
> > members
> > > stayed in Kyoto while the Shinchogumi ones retreated back to
> > Edo.
> > >
> > > I believe you have already got this book, but if not perhaps
you
> > can
> > > give a look at "Samurai Sketches", by Romulus Hillsborough. It
> > is a
> > > bit novelized, but still a very interesting depiction (and very
> well
> > > researched) of some Shinsengumi members, including Isami
> > Kondo and
> > > Kamo Serizawa.
> > >
> > > Hope that helped...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > I'm new. Hope I'm in the right place to ask this. I'm
> > researching
> > > > key figures of the Shinsengumi, particularly Isami Kondo and
> > > > Kamo Serizawa. They were of course members of the
> > > > Shinsengumi, but I've also run accross something called the
> > > > Shinchogumi. It that the same thing? If not, what is it?
> > > >
> > > > Any help much appreciated,
> > > >
> > > > St. John Lord Merridewe

[Previous #2084] [Next #2101]

#2101 [2003-08-20 12:15:00]

Re: Tough one: shincho vs. shinsen gumis

by serizawakamo

Roshitai (actually, Roshigumi, since the "-tai" suffix is somewhat
recent on this matter) was the group of ronins assembled by Hachiro
Kiyokawa in Edo to serve as a bodyguard army to the shogun.

Hope that helped...


--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "merridewe"
wrote:
> Thanks for this. OK then I have one more question: What is the
> Roshitai?
>
> Thanks again,
>
> St. John Lord Merridewe
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "serizawakamo" <
> serizawakamo@y...> wrote:
> > Shinchogumi is not Shinsengumi. Shinchogumi was also
> derived from the
> > Roshitai, just like the Shinsengumi, but the Shinsengumi
> members
> > stayed in Kyoto while the Shinchogumi ones retreated back to
> Edo.
> >
> > I believe you have already got this book, but if not perhaps you
> can
> > give a look at "Samurai Sketches", by Romulus Hillsborough. It
> is a
> > bit novelized, but still a very interesting depiction (and very
well
> > researched) of some Shinsengumi members, including Isami
> Kondo and
> > Kamo Serizawa.
> >
> > Hope that helped...
> >
> >
> >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > I'm new. Hope I'm in the right place to ask this. I'm
> researching
> > > key figures of the Shinsengumi, particularly Isami Kondo and
> > > Kamo Serizawa. They were of course members of the
> > > Shinsengumi, but I've also run accross something called the
> > > Shinchogumi. It that the same thing? If not, what is it?
> > >
> > > Any help much appreciated,
> > >
> > > St. John Lord Merridewe

[Previous #2099] [Next #2115]

#2115 [2003-08-26 09:09:55]

Re: Tough one: shincho vs. shinsen gumis

by merridewe

Hey Masamori Masami,

Thanks a lot for this. Really helps when watching films like Tenchu, Sword of Doom,
Samurai Assassin and Band of Assassins.

Yosh!

St. John Lord Merridewe

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Masamori Masami"
wrote:
> NOTE:
> Just realized that "This happened in 1863 or 3rd Year of Bunkyuu,
> one year after Kaoru's birth." was put in with the post at the end.
> Please ignore, that last sentence was just refering to an
> anime/manga called "Rurouni Kenshin" and was just comparing
> historical background with that anime/manga.
>
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Masamori Masami"
> wrote:
> > After the arrival of Commodore Perry, Japan was thrown into chaos
> > and fear. Many samurais, especially those of lower ranks, began to
> > doubt the power of the Shogunate in defending the country against
> > foreign powers, especially when they had seen the armed
> blackships.
> > The slogan "Sonno-Joi" (Rever the emperor, dispel the barbarians)
> > was winning more and more support, such that samurais desert their
> > hans to come to Kyoto to join the revolutionary movements. (In
> those
> > days deserting your han can be one of the most condemned sins -
> once
> > you desert, you can never return to it, on pain of death.)
> >
> > Such roshis (masterless samurais, but not ronins and definitely
> not
> > rurounis) increased in Kyoto, causing more and more disturbances
> at
> > the capital. In those early days of unsatisfied feelings, most of
> > the roshis still did not have a clear idea of what movement or who
> > they should follow. All they knew was that they were impatient and
> > eager to do something to defend Japan. There were myriads of
> schools
> > of thought - Sonno-joi, open up the country to learn from the
> gaijin
> > and in turn attact them using the same technologies, support the
> > Bakufu - as Watsuki once remarked, it was an era where 100 people
> > may hold 100 different arguments and you can't say who's wrong.
> It's
> > one factor which makes this era as tumultuous and interesting as
> it
> > is. The Bakufu decided that it would be to their advantage if they
> > took such roshis without any stand yet into their service, rather
> > than letting them roam about the capital. Hence, Roshi-tais (bands
> > of wave samurais) were formed and roshis enlisted under respective
> > Bakufu samurais, where the "entry requirements" were one's sword
> > skills (kenjutsu matches, something like an exam, were held.) This
> > happened in 1863 or 3rd Year of Bunkyuu, one year after Kaoru's
> > birth.
> >
> > *note direct from a website

[Previous #2101]


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