What makes a samurai a samurai?

Can anyone tell me a detailed list of all the specifications to being
a samurai?

gokujr1 wrote:

> Can anyone tell me a detailed list of all the specifications to being
> a samurai?

There was only one.

Be born into a samurai family (or be adopted by one). It was a hereditary class.

Of course, it's all academic, as samurai were legislated out of existence in 1868.


Tony

>
>
> From: "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...>
>gokujr1 wrote:
>
>
>
>>Can anyone tell me a detailed list of all the specifications to being
>>a samurai?
>>
>>
>There was only one.
>
>Be born into a samurai family (or be adopted by one). It was a hereditary class.
>Of course, it's all academic, as samurai were legislated out of existence in 1868.
>
>

Weren't there peasant families given this status before things grew
really static? Or were the farmer/samurai always of that status?

Remember old John Belushi skits? Samurai bookkeeper!

Jim Eckman

One was able to enlist as a foot soldier or as a page and "move up through the ranks",
Hidiyoshi is a good example of this. Later on though their were laws in place to prevent
this from happening and the only way to be a samurai was through birth. One interesting
exeption to this in the late edo period, a time when many samurai were impoverished
ronin, wealthy merchants would pay to have their sons adopted into a samurai family.

regards
Dave Jackson

----- Original Message -----
From: gokujr1
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 10:58 PM
Subject: [samuraihistory] What makes a samurai a samurai?


Can anyone tell me a detailed list of all the specifications to being
a samurai?


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Greetings Dave

I think ya mean Hideyoshi Toyotomi, right?

According to what I know, to be adopted into a samurai family, or being born
into a samurai family is not enough.

The Bushido, Honour, Obligation, Loyalty first to the Ways, second to the
Lord and third to the family is the main important things.

A person being born into an samurai family, but without the behaviour of an
true samurai is NOTHING more than a boo-chan, no matter what age he/she
would be.

And Honour is more than etiquete, more than self-dignity, it is
responsability with our own duties, word given and a behaviour that would
make the one a desserver of such respect.

It is to live in death and die in life. Or at least, be ready to die if
needed be, when the time comes, in the defense of the Honour that also,
includes the Lord who pay the expenses of the samurai in question.

Octavio Augusto Okimoto Alves de Carvalho
São Paulo - SP Brazil



Message: 3
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 18:52:31 -0700
From: Dave Jackson <nihontonut@...>
Subject: Re: What makes a samurai a samurai?

One was able to enlist as a foot soldier or as a page and "move up through
the ranks",
Hidiyoshi is a good example of this. Later on though their were laws in
place to prevent
this from happening and the only way to be a samurai was through birth. One
interesting
exeption to this in the late edo period, a time when many samurai were
impoverished
ronin, wealthy merchants would pay to have their sons adopted into a samurai
family.

regards
Dave Jackson

----- Original Message -----
From: gokujr1
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 10:58 PM
Subject: [samuraihistory] What makes a samurai a samurai?


Can anyone tell me a detailed list of all the specifications to being
a samurai?

Well said!!
Anyone born a samurai but lacking in honour or failing to follow the true way of bushido in all probability would
not remain a samurai for very long. Depending on the extent of the persons shortcomings I suspect that they
would be dismissed or required to perform hara-kiri.

Dave Jackson
British Columbia Canada

----- Original Message -----
From: Meðal Mikit Stór-ljon Oddhinsson
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 12:16 PM
Subject: [samuraihistory] Re: What makes a samurai a samurai?


Greetings Dave

I think ya mean Hideyoshi Toyotomi, right?

According to what I know, to be adopted into a samurai family, or being born
into a samurai family is not enough.

The Bushido, Honour, Obligation, Loyalty first to the Ways, second to the
Lord and third to the family is the main important things.

A person being born into an samurai family, but without the behaviour of an
true samurai is NOTHING more than a boo-chan, no matter what age he/she
would be.

And Honour is more than etiquete, more than self-dignity, it is
responsability with our own duties, word given and a behaviour that would
make the one a desserver of such respect.

It is to live in death and die in life. Or at least, be ready to die if
needed be, when the time comes, in the defense of the Honour that also,
includes the Lord who pay the expenses of the samurai in question.

Octavio Augusto Okimoto Alves de Carvalho
São Paulo - SP Brazil



Message: 3
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 18:52:31 -0700
From: Dave Jackson <nihontonut@...>
Subject: Re: What makes a samurai a samurai?

One was able to enlist as a foot soldier or as a page and "move up through
the ranks",
Hidiyoshi is a good example of this. Later on though their were laws in
place to prevent
this from happening and the only way to be a samurai was through birth. One
interesting
exeption to this in the late edo period, a time when many samurai were
impoverished
ronin, wealthy merchants would pay to have their sons adopted into a samurai
family.

regards
Dave Jackson
----- Original Message -----
From: gokujr1
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 10:58 PM
Subject: [samuraihistory] What makes a samurai a samurai?


Can anyone tell me a detailed list of all the specifications to being
a samurai?



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I am bit surprised about all this.

What makes a samurai a samurai is almost only bloodline or adoption. There
were honourable samurais and dishonorable samurais, but only buke or
adopted .

To think that honour was the main condition to be a samurai is like to think
that in middle age or arthurian europe, knights had to be brave and respect
a code of chivalry... knights (especially errants) were just like samurai :
sometimes honourable, sometimes looter, sometimes robbers, sometimes raper
but tight as a "class" by some kind of image of the brave "courtois" (sorry
i don't know how to translate this from french, it is related to love code
of chivalry) knight.


_____________________________________________________________________
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Hmmm, possibly.

What you have to bear in mind is that all these grand ideas like bushido and
honourable combat only exist after the wars once the samurai had their teeth
pulled.

During the Sengoku era you'd likely be in trouble if you didn't kill an
enemy when he had his back to you.

---
Steve Gill
Steve@...
http://www.caws.demon.co.uk/
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/lion_azure/

This message has been checked for all known viruses by Norton AntiVirus
2002.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Jackson [mailto:nihontonut@...]
> Sent: 08 August 2003 05:46
> To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: What makes a samurai a samurai?
>
>
> Well said!!
> Anyone born a samurai but lacking in honour or failing to follow
> the true way of bushido in all probability would
> not remain a samurai for very long. Depending on the extent of
> the persons shortcomings I suspect that they
> would be dismissed or required to perform hara-kiri.
>
> Dave Jackson
> British Columbia Canada
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Meðal Mikit Stór-ljon Oddhinsson
> To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 12:16 PM
> Subject: [samuraihistory] Re: What makes a samurai a samurai?
>
>
> Greetings Dave
>
> I think ya mean Hideyoshi Toyotomi, right?
>
> According to what I know, to be adopted into a samurai family,
> or being born
> into a samurai family is not enough.
>
> The Bushido, Honour, Obligation, Loyalty first to the Ways,
> second to the
> Lord and third to the family is the main important things.
>
> A person being born into an samurai family, but without the
> behaviour of an
> true samurai is NOTHING more than a boo-chan, no matter what age he/she
> would be.
>
> And Honour is more than etiquete, more than self-dignity, it is
> responsability with our own duties, word given and a behaviour
> that would
> make the one a desserver of such respect.
>
> It is to live in death and die in life. Or at least, be ready to die if
> needed be, when the time comes, in the defense of the Honour that also,
> includes the Lord who pay the expenses of the samurai in question.
>
> Octavio Augusto Okimoto Alves de Carvalho
> São Paulo - SP Brazil
>
>
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 18:52:31 -0700
> From: Dave Jackson <nihontonut@...>
> Subject: Re: What makes a samurai a samurai?
>
> One was able to enlist as a foot soldier or as a page and "move
> up through
> the ranks",
> Hidiyoshi is a good example of this. Later on though their were laws in
> place to prevent
> this from happening and the only way to be a samurai was
> through birth. One
> interesting
> exeption to this in the late edo period, a time when many samurai were
> impoverished
> ronin, wealthy merchants would pay to have their sons adopted
> into a samurai
> family.
>
> regards
> Dave Jackson
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: gokujr1
> To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 10:58 PM
> Subject: [samuraihistory] What makes a samurai a samurai?
>
>
> Can anyone tell me a detailed list of all the specifications to being
> a samurai?
>
>
>
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I've seen "courtois" translated as "courtly love".

Sounds like Bushido was a little bit like the "Code of the West". The Code
of the West has its roots in mythology as much as it does in history.

By the way, I'm not knocking either one. We need ideals to live up to. We
also need to realize that many people only paid lip service to these ideals.

Bob Burke

In a message dated 8/8/03 11:12:16 AM, pitibrand@... writes:

<< I am bit surprised about all this.


What makes a samurai a samurai is almost only bloodline or adoption. There

were honourable samurais and dishonorable samurais, but only buke or

adopted .


To think that honour was the main condition to be a samurai is like to think

that in middle age or arthurian europe, knights had to be brave and respect

a code of chivalry... knights (especially errants) were just like samurai :

sometimes honourable, sometimes looter, sometimes robbers, sometimes raper

but tight as a "class" by some kind of image of the brave "courtois" (sorry

i don't know how to translate this from french, it is related to love code

of chivalry) knight.

>>

I think there were former peasants that turned into samurai, Toyotomi
(or one of the big guys of the late 16th century) was one. It was
hard, but it could be done if you were adopted into a samurai family,
but after Tokugawa took power he forbade the class jumps.

The Wolf of Mibu

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, James Eckman wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: "Anthony J. Bryant"
> >gokujr1 wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>Can anyone tell me a detailed list of all the specifications to
being
> >>a samurai?
> >>
> >>
> >There was only one.
> >
> >Be born into a samurai family (or be adopted by one). It was a
hereditary class.
> >Of course, it's all academic, as samurai were legislated out of
existence in 1868.
> >
> >
> Weren't there peasant families given this status before things grew
> really static? Or were the farmer/samurai always of that status?
>
> Remember old John Belushi skits? Samurai bookkeeper!
>
> Jim Eckman

Toyotomi Hideyoshi was born a samurai, although he was born into a
poor samurai family that, like many other poor samurai families,
also farmed. But eventually he rose through the ranks to become
Kampaku, the highest rank Hideyoshi could receive since he didn't
descended from any imperial families, like all previous Shoguns. But
he was pretty much the "Shogun".

Later on, Hideyoshi slammed the door shut on social mobility,
abolishing the concept of the ji-zamurai, or 'samurai of the land'
who tilled the soil when not at war. Even lowly ashigaru were made
samurai, albeit low-ranking ones, and were forbidden to do village
work and were eventually ordered to live in the castle town of their
lords. The status edict guaranteed that there would not be another
Toyotomi Hideyoshi.


--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Saitoh Hajime"
wrote:

> I think there were former peasants that turned into samurai,

Toyotomi

> (or one of the big guys of the late 16th century) was one. It was
> hard, but it could be done if you were adopted into a samurai

family,

> but after Tokugawa took power he forbade the class jumps.
>
> The Wolf of Mibu
>
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, James Eckman

wrote:

> > >
> > >
> > > From: "Anthony J. Bryant"
> > >gokujr1 wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>Can anyone tell me a detailed list of all the specifications

to

> being
> > >>a samurai?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >There was only one.
> > >
> > >Be born into a samurai family (or be adopted by one). It was a
> hereditary class.
> > >Of course, it's all academic, as samurai were legislated out of
> existence in 1868.
> > >
> > >
> > Weren't there peasant families given this status before things

grew

> > really static? Or were the farmer/samurai always of that status?
> >
> > Remember old John Belushi skits? Samurai bookkeeper!
> >
> > Jim Eckman

> The status edict guaranteed that there would not be another
> Toyotomi Hideyoshi.

I know that Hideyoshi did this, but when was the actual date for this
edict?

Dean Wayland
Head Of The Fight School
http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk

Hideyoshi ordered the edict in 1591.


--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Dean Wayland
wrote:

> > The status edict guaranteed that there would not be another
> > Toyotomi Hideyoshi.
>
> I know that Hideyoshi did this, but when was the actual date for

this

> edict?
>
> Dean Wayland
> Head Of The Fight School
> http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk

Hmmm....

I think that, like in other cultures, in Tokugawa age, for acts of valour,
like saving the life of an Daimyo for an example, one peasant could be
granted the title of Samurai.

Am I wrong?

Octavio Augusto Okimoto Alves de Carvalho
São Paulo - SP Brazil

> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 19:34:51 -0000
> From: "Saitoh Hajime" <the_sam_99@...>
> Subject: Re: What makes a samurai a samurai?
>
> I think there were former peasants that turned into samurai, Toyotomi
> (or one of the big guys of the late 16th century) was one. It was
> hard, but it could be done if you were adopted into a samurai family,
> but after Tokugawa took power he forbade the class jumps.
>
> The Wolf of Mibu
>
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, James Eckman wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > From: "Anthony J. Bryant"
> > >gokujr1 wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>Can anyone tell me a detailed list of all the specifications to
> being
> > >>a samurai?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >There was only one.
> > >
> > >Be born into a samurai family (or be adopted by one). It was a
> hereditary class.
> > >Of course, it's all academic, as samurai were legislated out of
> existence in 1868.
> > >
> > >
> > Weren't there peasant families given this status before things grew
> > really static? Or were the farmer/samurai always of that status?
> >
> > Remember old John Belushi skits? Samurai bookkeeper!
> >
> > Jim Eckman
>
>
>

I know later in the Tokugawa era, some merchants, who were well off,
were given the status of the two swords, but I'm not sure peasants
would be granted the title of Samurai. But it makes sense that if
they did something like save a daimyo's life, he would reward them
with the title, anyone know for sure?

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Meðal Mikit Stór-ljon
Oddhinsson wrote:

> Hmmm....
>
> I think that, like in other cultures, in Tokugawa age, for acts of

valour,

> like saving the life of an Daimyo for an example, one peasant

could be

> granted the title of Samurai.
>
> Am I wrong?
>
> Octavio Augusto Okimoto Alves de Carvalho
> São Paulo - SP Brazil
>
>
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 19:34:51 -0000
> > From: "Saitoh Hajime"
> > Subject: Re: What makes a samurai a samurai?
> >
> > I think there were former peasants that turned into samurai,

Toyotomi

> > (or one of the big guys of the late 16th century) was one. It was
> > hard, but it could be done if you were adopted into a samurai

family,

> > but after Tokugawa took power he forbade the class jumps.
> >
> > The Wolf of Mibu
> >
> >
> > --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, James Eckman

wrote:

> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: "Anthony J. Bryant"
> > > >gokujr1 wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>Can anyone tell me a detailed list of all the specifications

to

> > being
> > > >>a samurai?
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >There was only one.
> > > >
> > > >Be born into a samurai family (or be adopted by one). It was a
> > hereditary class.
> > > >Of course, it's all academic, as samurai were legislated out

of

> > existence in 1868.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Weren't there peasant families given this status before things

grew

> > > really static? Or were the farmer/samurai always of that

status?

> > >
> > > Remember old John Belushi skits? Samurai bookkeeper!
> > >
> > > Jim Eckman
> >
> >
> >