Introduction and question

Hi, everybody,

I have been a silent member of your group reading discussions with great
interest for several months now. My name is Tim and I have been studying
Japanese history for about six years now and take the strongest interest in
the history of feudal Japan.

Now the question: I watched a Kurosawa movie "Kagemusha" and then read that
the among the scenes, where various warlords discuss whether Takeda died or
not (and of course then, when they learn that he indeed died) there are Oda
and Tokugawa. I heard or read somewhere that in the version of this movie
shown on the national Japanese TV broadcast, there was also Uesugi. There
also of course a legend about weeping Uesugi regretting the loss of the
greatest enemy. Why was this scene cut out of the version which went on
international sale/rent?

Thanks

Tim
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R Kibatti wrote:

> Hi, everybody,
>
> I have been a silent member of your group reading discussions with great
> interest for several months now. My name is Tim and I have been studying
> Japanese history for about six years now and take the strongest interest in
> the history of feudal Japan.
>
> Now the question: I watched a Kurosawa movie "Kagemusha" and then read that
> the among the scenes, where various warlords discuss whether Takeda died or
> not (and of course then, when they learn that he indeed died) there are Oda
> and Tokugawa. I heard or read somewhere that in the version of this movie
> shown on the national Japanese TV broadcast, there was also Uesugi. There
> also of course a legend about weeping Uesugi regretting the loss of the
> greatest enemy. Why was this scene cut out of the version which went on
> international sale/rent?

The original Japanese version was about four minutes longer.

The scenes were cut for one reason: Nobunaga and Ieyasu had scenes together,
so they had a sense of subplot. Uesugi didn't have scenes with the others, and
the people who brought it over for us (Fox) felt that *three* enemies would be
too difficult to remember or keep track of.

That plus the fact that Uesugi was well known in Japan as Shingen's great
historic rival, but for this story he was a side character and totally
unnecessary. The Japanese audience would know who he was when they saw him and
would know back story. We wouldn't, so why confuse the issue? It's like a
movie in the US throwing in a reference to "Babe the Blue Ox" -- we'd know
that means that Paul Bunyon was involved somehow, but people in Japan wouldn't
know about that because that's not part of their national
culture/history/identity. Rather than try to figure out how to explain it, if
it didn't matter, they'd just cut it.


Tony

IMHO Uesugi Kenshin was not a man to weep for a fallen foe, it is said he
remarked on the loss of Shingen as regrettable. He was more likely to sit up
all night before a blazing fire chanting in prayer...

Tom

Tony, thanks for the reply.

Tim

----Original Message Follows----
From: "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...>
Reply-To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Introduction and question
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 20:41:37 -0500

R Kibatti wrote:

> Hi, everybody,
>
> I have been a silent member of your group reading discussions with great
> interest for several months now. My name is Tim and I have been studying
> Japanese history for about six years now and take the strongest interest

in

> the history of feudal Japan.
>
> Now the question: I watched a Kurosawa movie "Kagemusha" and then read

that

> the among the scenes, where various warlords discuss whether Takeda died

or

> not (and of course then, when they learn that he indeed died) there are

Oda

> and Tokugawa. I heard or read somewhere that in the version of this

movie

> shown on the national Japanese TV broadcast, there was also Uesugi.

There

> also of course a legend about weeping Uesugi regretting the loss of the
> greatest enemy. Why was this scene cut out of the version which went on
> international sale/rent?

The original Japanese version was about four minutes longer.

The scenes were cut for one reason: Nobunaga and Ieyasu had scenes together,
so they had a sense of subplot. Uesugi didn't have scenes with the others,
and
the people who brought it over for us (Fox) felt that *three* enemies would
be
too difficult to remember or keep track of.

That plus the fact that Uesugi was well known in Japan as Shingen's great
historic rival, but for this story he was a side character and totally
unnecessary. The Japanese audience would know who he was when they saw him
and
would know back story. We wouldn't, so why confuse the issue? It's like a
movie in the US throwing in a reference to "Babe the Blue Ox" -- we'd know
that means that Paul Bunyon was involved somehow, but people in Japan
wouldn't
know about that because that's not part of their national
culture/history/identity. Rather than try to figure out how to explain it,
if
it didn't matter, they'd just cut it.


Tony


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--- In samuraihistory@y..., TOM HELM wrote:

> IMHO Uesugi Kenshin was not a man to weep for a fallen foe, it is

said he

> remarked on the loss of Shingen as regrettable. He was more likely

to sit up

> all night before a blazing fire chanting in prayer...

...Or sit up all night with a big jug of rice wine, as Kenshin was
apparently a heavy drinker.

In a TV Drama I saw called "Takeda Shingen" from the eighties, Kenshin
actually performed a Waka accompanied by a dance. Kenshin is a devoter of
the Hindu God Vishnu, whom he titled "War God of the North".

>IMHO Uesugi Kenshin was not a man to weep for a fallen foe, it is said he
>remarked on the loss of Shingen as regrettable. He was more likely to sit
>up
>all night before a blazing fire chanting in prayer...
>
> Tom
>
>
>
>Samurai Archives: http://www.hn.org/samurai-archives/index.html
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>

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