Question of credentials...

Hello again all,
I have been reading Elizabeth Berry's excellant book 'Hideyoshi'
along with a biography of Tokugawa Ieyasu and I got to thinking about
the possible reasons why Hideyoshi decided to take the title
of 'Kampaku' (Regent) over 'SeiiTai Shogun'. The obvious answer is
that Hideyoshi did not come from the Genji lineage that would have
allowed him to hold the title...But I also read that Ieyasu's own
lineage was never too clear cut in a line from the Minamoto. (a
suspect link to a clan called 'Nitta' was his claim to power)
In Berry's book the idea is presented that Hideyoshi was not
concerned with the position of Shogun because that of Kampaku would
permit him the power but without the trouble of upsetting the
delicate balance that he had achieved with the Daimyo.
If Ieyasu could 'alter' his lineage what other reasons can you all
suggest for why Hideyoshi decided not to follow the same route?
Something to think over for a while maybe...
(Off topic please try to check out the pictures that I've drawn of
Samurai in a series at; www.dickyjjamison.homestead.com/artwork.html
and please tell me what you think...Shameless plug I know but oh
well...)

Just a couple of thoughts by way of reply:

Tokugawa was in a far stronger position to 'massage' his
lineage than Hideyoshi - Ieyasu was the son of a minor but
well-respected daimyo, his family were part-rulers of Mikawa,
whereas Hideyoshi had no bloodline to speak of.

As you say, in the delicate balance of power politics between
the daimyo, Hideyoshi probably played the wiser game of not
aggravating a situation (by assuming a title to which he had no
hereditary claim). By the time Ieyasu declared himself Shogun -
after Sekigahara he was in a much stronger position than
Hideyoshi ever enjoyed - there was perhaps only one family in
Japan who could challenge him. One might ask why Ieyasu did not
assume the title Kampaku, having emerged from the Council of
Regents. Perhaps he wanted the whole affair put away.

Had Hideyoshi's son succeeded him, perhaps the title Kampaku
would have eclipsed Shogun - Regent is royal commission,
whilst General is a military one - so perhaps Hideyoshi actually
saw Kampaku as being a greater appelation than Shogun.

Thomas

(ps - like the illustrations!)

I have read somewhere that the concept that the Shogun could only come from
'Minamoto' lineage was a fiction created later by the Tokugawa heirachy to
confirm their own grip on power, and to legitimize Ieyasu taking of the
title over Hideyoshi and Nobunaga (ignoring the fact that neither wanted the
rank). During the first years of the Tokugawa Bakufu there was a struggle
between Tokugawa Ieyasu and his son Hidetada and Toyotomi Hideyori over
securing different ranks from the court. This seems to imply that the title
of Shogun was not as important as it would later become. After all Ieyasu
had the title only for two years before handing it over to Hidetada to the
chagrin of Hideyori and Yodogimi.
Why Nobunaga and Hideyoshi didn't become shogun; there have been several
reasons given. I think the main reason was the example of the ineffectual
later Ashikaga Shogunate. The position had become so bereft of power that
neither wanted it.

----- Original Message -----
From: <fifthchamber@...>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2001 7:59 PM
Subject: [samuraihistory] Question of credentials...


> Hello again all,
> I have been reading Elizabeth Berry's excellant book 'Hideyoshi'
> along with a biography of Tokugawa Ieyasu and I got to thinking about
> the possible reasons why Hideyoshi decided to take the title
> of 'Kampaku' (Regent) over 'SeiiTai Shogun'. The obvious answer is
> that Hideyoshi did not come from the Genji lineage that would have
> allowed him to hold the title...But I also read that Ieyasu's own
> lineage was never too clear cut in a line from the Minamoto. (a
> suspect link to a clan called 'Nitta' was his claim to power)
> In Berry's book the idea is presented that Hideyoshi was not
> concerned with the position of Shogun because that of Kampaku would
> permit him the power but without the trouble of upsetting the
> delicate balance that he had achieved with the Daimyo.
> If Ieyasu could 'alter' his lineage what other reasons can you all
> suggest for why Hideyoshi decided not to follow the same route?
> Something to think over for a while maybe...
> (Off topic please try to check out the pictures that I've drawn of
> Samurai in a series at; www.dickyjjamison.homestead.com/artwork.html
> and please tell me what you think...Shameless plug I know but oh
> well...)
>
>
>
> Samurai Archives: http://www.hn.org/samurai-archives/index.html
> ---
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

You bring up some valid points. It is a
well-established fact that Hideyoshi could never be
shogun. You brought up about his own lineage & I can
confirm that not only HE but Ieyasu were not of
Minamoto blood. Tokugawa basically threatened the life
of the emperor into altering his lineage. Since the
shogun was considered to be the source of all 'true'
power during the era, the emperor had no choice but to
make Tokugawa a 'Minamoto.'
I find it interesting that centuries after the
great Minamoto-Taira wars that people wished to use
these names, not only to exploit them for personal
gain, but, also for sovereign protection. Meanwhile,
they clearly held no reverence for the honor which
their names derive from a mere mention. Yet, it eludes
me that Oda Nobunaga, of Taira descent did not so
clearly connect himself with his heritage in both name
and nostalgia. It is no wonder then that he is the
most famous of all Japanese, for the simple fact that
he is both an enigma and a wonder to us all...

=====
"I am Mikhal no Shourinou, son of Toshiro of the village of Rin, and loyal retainer of the Maeda clan. Prepared, is the great Infinite for your impending arrival. Feel thy soul render upon my blade..."
--- The Purple Rose

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
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--- The Dragon of Eternal Rain
<Shourinou@...> wrote:

> You bring up some valid points. It is a
> well-established fact that Hideyoshi could never be
> shogun. You brought up about his own lineage & I can
> confirm that not only HE but Ieyasu were not of
> Minamoto blood.

How can you confirm this? DO you have documentation?
I'd be very interested (as would we all) in seeing
that.

Tokugawa basically threatened the

> life
> of the emperor into altering his lineage. Since the
> shogun was considered to be the source of all 'true'
> power during the era, the emperor had no choice but
> to
> make Tokugawa a 'Minamoto.'

Also, can you document this too?

> Yet, it
> eludes
> me that Oda Nobunaga, of Taira descent did not so
> clearly connect himself with his heritage in both
> name
> and nostalgia.

Simple. Using the Taira name didn't give you any real
political advantage or claim to an office. Not like
the Minamoto claim to Sei-i-taishogun or the Fujiwara
Kampaku offices.


Nate Ledbetter

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Personally, I'm very much into the Fujiwara/Minamoto/Takeda lineages.
Although I can not confirm it beyond any shadow of a doubt, it was my
understanding that a Tokugawa son married a Minamoto daughter some time
around 1000-1100. My dates could be off since I don't have the information
right in front of me. Further, I could very well be mistaken ... but I seem
to recall something of that nature during my studies on the Takeda lineage
which ranges back through the Minamoto to Fujiwara Seiwa.
This piece of information is pure speculation. I cannot verify it. Please
keep that in mind. It's just something I remember reading.

Alex

----- Original Message -----
From: The Dragon of Eternal Rain <Shourinou@...>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>; <fifthchamber@...>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 7:14 AM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Question of credentials...


> You bring up some valid points. It is a
> well-established fact that Hideyoshi could never be
> shogun. You brought up about his own lineage & I can
> confirm that not only HE but Ieyasu were not of
> Minamoto blood. Tokugawa basically threatened the life
> of the emperor into altering his lineage. Since the
> shogun was considered to be the source of all 'true'
> power during the era, the emperor had no choice but to
> make Tokugawa a 'Minamoto.'
> I find it interesting that centuries after the
> great Minamoto-Taira wars that people wished to use
> these names, not only to exploit them for personal
> gain, but, also for sovereign protection. Meanwhile,
> they clearly held no reverence for the honor which
> their names derive from a mere mention. Yet, it eludes
> me that Oda Nobunaga, of Taira descent did not so
> clearly connect himself with his heritage in both name
> and nostalgia. It is no wonder then that he is the
> most famous of all Japanese, for the simple fact that
> he is both an enigma and a wonder to us all...
>
> =====
> "I am Mikhal no Shourinou, son of Toshiro of the village of Rin, and loyal
retainer of the Maeda clan. Prepared, is the great Infinite for your
impending arrival. Feel thy soul render upon my blade..."
> --- The Purple Rose
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
> http://auctions.yahoo.com/
>
>
> Samurai Archives: http://www.hn.org/samurai-archives/index.html
> ---
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>

On the subject of Takeda lineage, yes I was pretty sure that I have heard of
lineage directly linked to the Minamoto Buke (Or perhaps to a vassal of the
Minamoto) and I am sure that the Takeda (being a very old provincial ruling
clan) had links to the Genji that would have allowed them to claim the post
of SeiiTai Shogun. However I am pretty certain that there were no members of
the Tokugawa clan that are named in extant sources (Dating before the Sengoku
era anyway). This does not mean that the Matsudaira were not an old family,
only that they were not able to draw any direct links to the Minamoto...Back
to my first point, it was my impression that Tokugawa Ieyasu 'found' a line
of his family that was linked to a Buke named 'Nitta' (I think as vassals-not
too sure..) from the Mikawa area and that he claimed his links to them in his
efforts to convince Japan (Not least the Emperor.) of his right to rule.

Hello,

I don't believe that Tokugawa ieyasu threatened the
emperor to change his lineage. I believe That if you
check any stephen turnbull book especially the
"samurai sourcebook" you will find this to be true.
He did however have the men doing his lineage "find" a
link to the fujiwara/minamoto name allowing him to
become shogun. Are you sure that Nobunaga was related
to the taira. The taira/minamoto battles ended with
the complete destruction of the taira lineage. Also I
beleive that nobunaga's family was a "gekokujo" family
having risen from being a simple family to a small
daimyo family.

Thanks for listening to my humble words.

musashi
--- The Dragon of Eternal Rain
<Shourinou@...> wrote:

> You bring up some valid points. It is a
> well-established fact that Hideyoshi could never be
> shogun. You brought up about his own lineage & I can
> confirm that not only HE but Ieyasu were not of
> Minamoto blood. Tokugawa basically threatened the
> life
> of the emperor into altering his lineage. Since the
> shogun was considered to be the source of all 'true'
> power during the era, the emperor had no choice but
> to
> make Tokugawa a 'Minamoto.'
> I find it interesting that centuries after the
> great Minamoto-Taira wars that people wished to use
> these names, not only to exploit them for personal
> gain, but, also for sovereign protection. Meanwhile,
> they clearly held no reverence for the honor which
> their names derive from a mere mention. Yet, it
> eludes
> me that Oda Nobunaga, of Taira descent did not so
> clearly connect himself with his heritage in both
> name
> and nostalgia. It is no wonder then that he is the
> most famous of all Japanese, for the simple fact
> that
> he is both an enigma and a wonder to us all...
>
> =====
> "I am Mikhal no Shourinou, son of Toshiro of the
> village of Rin, and loyal retainer of the Maeda
> clan. Prepared, is the great Infinite for your
> impending arrival. Feel thy soul render upon my
> blade..."
> --- The Purple Rose
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great
> prices
> http://auctions.yahoo.com/
>
>

__________________________________________________
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http://auctions.yahoo.com/

erik baker wrote:

>
> I don't believe that Tokugawa ieyasu threatened the
> emperor to change his lineage. I believe That if you
> check any stephen turnbull book especially the
> "samurai sourcebook" you will find this to be true.
> He did however have the men doing his lineage "find" a
> link to the fujiwara/minamoto name allowing him to
> become shogun. Are you sure that Nobunaga was related
> to the taira. The taira/minamoto battles ended with
> the complete destruction of the taira lineage.

Hardly.

Yoritomo's wife's family, the Hojo, were of Taira extraction. (Yes, the
great irony being that the "Minamoto" Kamakura bakufu, the result of
overthrowing Taira control, was in fact controlled by a Taira family.)



Tony

Thank you for writing back to me. It is said that
Nobunaga is of Taira descent. Something I was told
that may or may not be true. I felt I should mention
it but it may not be true. What I CAN tell you is the
following:

1) The Minamoto and Taira were NOT destroyed after the
Genji-Heike wars. One thing that must be understood is
that with almost EVERY Japanese name, there are
relatives that took on other names similar to the
original names...& sometimes, took on whole new names.
There are people still even today of the descent of
these two families, as there are existing people of
various other families.

2) Tokugawa DID threaten the emperor with changing his
lineage. Its not like the emperor really had a choice
anyway: at that time (like many other periods in
history) the emperor had no true power so therefore
not only was Tokugawa Ieyasu SHOGUN by default, but,
had the lineage to defend it (not that many were
foolish enough to challenge HIM). Perhaps Ieyasu
wished to save face with the people by allowing their
ultimate religious leader (the 'divine' emperor) to
exist as a figurehead.

My point to you is there are many stories that
abound even today about these men. Some are true,
others are not. I leave to you what you shall decide.
But from what I have learned and what I truly KNOW, is
true. These were not friendly men, nor friendly times.
The sad fact is they acted in ways that people today
still do, so is it really so hard to imagine the
chosen behavior(s) that were taken to such lengths,
really hard to believe?

I ask you to ponder this and reply...

=====
"I am Mikhal no Shourinou, son of Toshiro of the village of Rin, and loyal retainer of the Maeda clan. Prepared, is the great Infinite for your impending arrival. Feel thy soul render upon my blade..."
--- The Purple Rose

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

I did some checking and found that the oda family was
a vassal of a family called the shiba. In a classic
case of gekokujo they took the shiba land and made it
their own. Within the mess of paper work and fighting
they did claim a descent from the taira. Whether this
is true is up for debate.

I also wanted to point out that although I knew the
Minamoto were not destroyed because they were the
victors. I did find out after my last response that
some small factions of the taira did survive. An
example of this is the hojo. This correction was give
to me by Mr. Bryant(thanks alot). I also wanted to
point ot that the ieyasu's family claimed descent from
the minamoto long bfore he had enough power to
threaten the emperor. However, whether he threatened
him to back up the families past claims is unknown to
me.

Of course their are many stories in japanese history
that are made up as well as family's with no real
aristocratic past that took names of famous families
to add prestige to their rule. But history that has
no material backing can only be debated an questioned.
Thats why I write this response. How do some of the
other members of this list feel.

Thank you for listening to my words.

Musashi
--- The Dragon of Eternal Rain
<Shourinou@...> wrote:

> Thank you for writing back to me. It is said
> that
> Nobunaga is of Taira descent. Something I was told
> that may or may not be true. I felt I should mention
> it but it may not be true. What I CAN tell you is
> the
> following:
>
> 1) The Minamoto and Taira were NOT destroyed after
> the
> Genji-Heike wars. One thing that must be understood
> is
> that with almost EVERY Japanese name, there are
> relatives that took on other names similar to the
> original names...& sometimes, took on whole new
> names.
> There are people still even today of the descent of
> these two families, as there are existing people of
> various other families.
>
> 2) Tokugawa DID threaten the emperor with changing
> his
> lineage. Its not like the emperor really had a
> choice
> anyway: at that time (like many other periods in
> history) the emperor had no true power so therefore
> not only was Tokugawa Ieyasu SHOGUN by default, but,
> had the lineage to defend it (not that many were
> foolish enough to challenge HIM). Perhaps Ieyasu
> wished to save face with the people by allowing
> their
> ultimate religious leader (the 'divine' emperor) to
> exist as a figurehead.
>
> My point to you is there are many stories that
> abound even today about these men. Some are true,
> others are not. I leave to you what you shall
> decide.
> But from what I have learned and what I truly KNOW,
> is
> true. These were not friendly men, nor friendly
> times.
> The sad fact is they acted in ways that people today
> still do, so is it really so hard to imagine the
> chosen behavior(s) that were taken to such lengths,
> really hard to believe?
>
> I ask you to ponder this and reply...
>
> =====
> "I am Mikhal no Shourinou, son of Toshiro of the
> village of Rin, and loyal retainer of the Maeda
> clan. Prepared, is the great Infinite for your
> impending arrival. Feel thy soul render upon my
> blade..."
> --- The Purple Rose
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail -
> only $35
> a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
>
>

__________________________________________________
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