research for a friend..

Hi, a college friend posed this question to me, and as i dont know of any such story, i wondered if any of you have any information. She heard the story years ago and is now trying to trace it again, and get more facts.
The event is purported to have taken place in the 1860s or 70s, and concerns the murder, on a beach hidden by wooded cliffs, of two or three "shishi" during the Satsuma rebellion or related events, by 5 Americans.
Thats all my friend can remeber of the story, if it rings any bells please let us know - we would be fascinated.

Laura




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Hi Laura

The only thing i can think of in regards to this matter, is that "Shishi" was believed to be an imaginary "lion-like looking dog", placed at temple entrances in Japan. The only death close to such settings of a cliff, can be that of the ritual suicide of Saigo Takamori during September of 1877 on a hilltop in Kagoshima, which is a coast city. He was the aristocratic politician who led the Satsuma rebellion, but was one of 3 samurai who helped form the Japan army whom he turned against. This murder story your friend mentioned, have the liking of a rumor. The rebellion had nothing to do with another country. Only Samurai faught against the Meiji laws of the Japan army, in 1877 where about 21thousand perished...mmm...but I will follow this story up.

Deon




Warrior_of_bushido <warrior_of_bushido@...> wrote:
Hi, a college friend posed this question to me, and as i dont know of any such story, i wondered if any of you have any information. She heard the story years ago and is now trying to trace it again, and get more facts.
The event is purported to have taken place in the 1860s or 70s, and concerns the murder, on a beach hidden by wooded cliffs, of two or three "shishi" during the Satsuma rebellion or related events, by 5 Americans.
Thats all my friend can remeber of the story, if it rings any bells please let us know - we would be fascinated.

Laura




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Sincerly, Satsuma rebellion started as Saigo Takamori have had refused
their demand to be sent in Korea to ''avenge'' a supposed insult to the
Emperor made by Korean court. He hoped that an invasion should be
possible to gain Korea as a satellite state. The government refused his
request because of fear of European intervention. These are the only
thing the rebellion have to share with another nation.

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Deon de Jongh [mailto:deondejonghsa@...]
Inviato: venerdì 16 maggio 2003 15.28
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: Re: [samuraihistory] research for a friend..

Hi Laura

The only thing i can think of in regards to this matter, is that
"Shishi" was believed to be an imaginary "lion-like looking dog", placed
at temple entrances in Japan. The only death close to such settings of a
cliff, can be that of the ritual suicide of Saigo Takamori during
September of 1877 on a hilltop in Kagoshima, which is a coast city. He
was the aristocratic politician who led the Satsuma rebellion, but was
one of 3 samurai who helped form the Japan army whom he turned against.
This murder story your friend mentioned, have the liking of a rumor. The
rebellion had nothing to do with another country. Only Samurai faught
against the Meiji laws of the Japan army, in 1877 where about 21thousand
perished...mmm...but I will follow this story up.

Deon




Warrior_of_bushido <warrior_of_bushido@...> wrote:
Hi, a college friend posed this question to me, and as i dont know of
any such story, i wondered if any of you have any information. She
heard the story years ago and is now trying to trace it again, and get
more facts.
The event is purported to have taken place in the 1860s or 70s, and
concerns the murder, on a beach hidden by wooded cliffs, of two or three
"shishi" during the Satsuma rebellion or related events, by 5 Americans.

Thats all my friend can remeber of the story, if it rings any bells
please let us know - we would be fascinated.

Laura




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Carlo Tacchini wrote:

> Sincerly, Satsuma rebellion started as Saigo Takamori have had refused
> their demand to be sent in Korea to ''avenge'' a supposed insult to the
> Emperor made by Korean court. He hoped that an invasion should be
> possible to gain Korea as a satellite state. The government refused his
> request because of fear of European intervention. These are the only
> thing the rebellion have to share with another nation.

The late prof. Hiraizumi Kiyoshi says very differently.

"The Korean government rejected the Meiji notification [end of shogunate, new
government announced] and committed many untoward acts. Therefore, Kido
Takayoshi and others thought it necessary to respond militarily to chastise
Korea for her rude behavior toward Japan. ... With that, discussions began on
the 12th day of the 6th month of Meiji 6 (1873).... Itagaki advocated a swift
military response. Saigo suppressed this intent, maintaining that diplomatic
missions should instead be sent to deal calmly but firmly with Korea. He
proposed himself for the mission, and ultimately it was agreed that he would go.
... [then Okubo and Kido and other goverment officials returned to Japan from a
world-crossing fact-finding mission.] .... heated word were exchanged at a
council on the 14th day of the 10th month. Concerned, the chancellor Sanjo
became ill and Iwakura took his place as the chancellor's proxy. On the 22nd of
the 10th month, they resolutely rejected the previous council decision. As a
result, that same day, Saigo resigned his position as Councilor, and the next
day Itagaki, Soejima Taneomi, Goto, and Eto followed suit. This was the
beginning of the Saga Rebellion."
The Story of Japan, vol iii.

Tony

..Hmmm... Surely I have to re-read my sources before posting something.
My memory begin to confuse the things....

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Anthony J. Bryant [mailto:ajbryant@...]
Inviato: venerdì 16 maggio 2003 18.55
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: Re: R: [samuraihistory] research for a friend..

Carlo Tacchini wrote:

> Sincerly, Satsuma rebellion started as Saigo Takamori have had refused
> their demand to be sent in Korea to ''avenge'' a supposed insult to

the

> Emperor made by Korean court. He hoped that an invasion should be
> possible to gain Korea as a satellite state. The government refused

his

> request because of fear of European intervention. These are the only
> thing the rebellion have to share with another nation.

The late prof. Hiraizumi Kiyoshi says very differently.

"The Korean government rejected the Meiji notification [end of
shogunate, new
government announced] and committed many untoward acts. Therefore, Kido
Takayoshi and others thought it necessary to respond militarily to
chastise
Korea for her rude behavior toward Japan. ... With that, discussions
began on
the 12th day of the 6th month of Meiji 6 (1873).... Itagaki advocated a
swift
military response. Saigo suppressed this intent, maintaining that
diplomatic
missions should instead be sent to deal calmly but firmly with Korea. He
proposed himself for the mission, and ultimately it was agreed that he
would go.
... [then Okubo and Kido and other goverment officials returned to Japan
from a
world-crossing fact-finding mission.] .... heated word were exchanged at
a
council on the 14th day of the 10th month. Concerned, the chancellor
Sanjo
became ill and Iwakura took his place as the chancellor's proxy. On the
22nd of
the 10th month, they resolutely rejected the previous council decision.
As a
result, that same day, Saigo resigned his position as Councilor, and the
next
day Itagaki, Soejima Taneomi, Goto, and Eto followed suit. This was the
beginning of the Saga Rebellion."
The Story of Japan, vol iii.

Tony



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Carlo Tacchini wrote:

> Sincerly, Satsuma rebellion started as Saigo Takamori have had refused
> their demand to be sent in Korea to ''avenge'' a supposed insult to the
> Emperor made by Korean court. He hoped that an invasion should be
> possible to gain Korea as a satellite state. The government refused his
> request because of fear of European intervention. These are the only
> thing the rebellion have to share with another nation.

The late prof. Hiraizumi Kiyoshi says very differently.

"The Korean government rejected the Meiji notification [end of shogunate, new
government announced] and committed many untoward acts. Therefore, Kido
Takayoshi and others thought it necessary to respond militarily to chastise
Korea for her rude behavior toward Japan. ... With that, discussions began on
the 12th day of the 6th month of Meiji 6 (1873).... Itagaki advocated a swift
military response. Saigo suppressed this intent, maintaining that diplomatic
missions should instead be sent to deal calmly but firmly with Korea. He
proposed himself for the mission, and ultimately it was agreed that he would go.
... [then Okubo and Kido and other government officials returned to Japan from a
world-crossing fact-finding mission.] .... heated word were exchanged at a
council on the 14th day of the 10th month. Concerned, the chancellor Sanjo
became ill and Iwakura took his place as the chancellor's proxy. On the 22nd of
the 10th month, they resolutely rejected the previous council decision. As a
result, that same day, Saigo resigned his position as Councilor, and the next
day Itagaki, Soejima Taneomi, Goto, and Eto followed suit. This was the
beginning of the Saga Rebellion."
The Story of Japan, vol iii.

Tony

Laura et al-
It is more likely five Americans were murdered by five Shishi
("men of high purpose", patriots not lions). ALthough it could have
happened during the landings made by international forces when they
took the Satsuma batteries and destroyed them in August 1863. This
was in retribution for firing on foreign vessels. It might also have
occurred when foreign representatives were in Kagoshima to witness
the seppuku of the man responsible for the attack on Richardson
(Namamugi-jiken). However this would be highly unlikely.
One event I would like to research more is the incident at
Sakai, where 9 French sailors were massacred by Tosa troops en route
to attack Edo. BUT because this was late in the game and "the Regime
change" followed shortly thereafter the European powers took little
notice of the deaths. I've not been able to find much on this in
print but have always wanted to learn more.(The European governments
of the time were very much involved in the events of the Restoration,
though it suited all concerned to let it play out as a "civil" war.)
I have to agree with Tony and Hiraizumi Sensei, Saigo as
warmonger was the story put out by Okubos' propaganda machine. There
are very good reasons for his wanting to put himself at the center of
the Korean question. If you agree with Yates' ideas they are easily
explainable. The saddest part is that inspite of the Okubo
governments public protestations to the contrary they followed the
very same course of action proposed by Saigo just five years after
the Satsuma rebellion was put down.
Tom


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