History of a Sword

I am new to this group and relatively new to the fascination and
interest in Samurai history. I have two swords that have been in my
family's possession for almost 60 years, since they returned to the
US with an older member of my family at the end of World War II. For
years I admired these swords, but only recently started to examine
them with a sense of their history. Certainly, a little knowledge can
be a dangerous thing, but every thing I learn (or think I do)leads to
more curiosity and questions.

One sword is an Army Parade Saber that I gather is relatively common
and nothing special - except for one thing - this saber has its
original tassel.

However, the other sword is more intriguing and of more historical
interest. The style is Kyu Gunto which I believe became popular
during the Russo/Japanese war and continued until World War II.
Removing the blade from the handle reveals the signature on the tang.
The translation I have indicates that the sword blade was forged in
the 17th century. More specifically, by a smith between 1681 and 1684.
I am just fascinated by all of this - the characters on the hidden
part of the sword blade, etc.

Sorry for the long preamble, but this leads to three questions:

1. I would like to know better how to care for these swords. I know
this is not the proper forum for that discussion, but if anyone could
point me toward that information somewhere, I would appreciate it.

2. How common a practice was it for a military officer to take an old
sword, maybe a family sword, and have it configured and adapted to a
more contemporary style?

3. I am interested in learning about the smith who forged this sword
blade in the 1680's. The name was translated for me, but I have been
unable to find information about him. He is not listed on the Samurai-
Archives site. Can anyone give me any suggestions about searching for
information about this smith?

Thank you for offering and supporting this group.

Scott Moore

http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/nihonto.htm

Scott!
Welcome to the world of Nihonto, twenty years ago I started
out with a mild interest in Japanese history and martial arts. My
teacher told me to study swords, easy thought I, now half a lifetime
later I am still studying. It is a fascinating subject with something
for every interest. If you follow the above link you'll be taken to
probably the most comprehensive site on the web.
Depending on where you live there are clubs and collectors
who will be willing to help you research your swords. There is a
"Nihontostudy" group on Yahoo like this one and I of course would be
happy to help if I can.
Tom Helm
member NCJSC

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tom.

Thank you for your suggestions. I have visited the link you mentioned and you are right about the information. I am still going through sections of it.

Appreciate the reply.

Scott

----- Original Message -----
From: tom helm
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2003 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword


http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/nihonto.htm

Scott!
Welcome to the world of Nihonto, twenty years ago I started
out with a mild interest in Japanese history and martial arts. My
teacher told me to study swords, easy thought I, now half a lifetime
later I am still studying. It is a fascinating subject with something
for every interest. If you follow the above link you'll be taken to
probably the most comprehensive site on the web.
Depending on where you live there are clubs and collectors
who will be willing to help you research your swords. There is a
"Nihontostudy" group on Yahoo like this one and I of course would be
happy to help if I can.
Tom Helm
member NCJSC

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Mr. Moore,

Congratulations on your finds. You truly have a treasure in your
possession. The first thing that could suggest is to have it professionally
cleaned and/or polished. The fittings that currently exist on the blade
mean little in comparison to the blade itself. If you do manage to get it
cleaned and polished you should also get it placed into a Shirasaya.
Bear in mind that this is not a cheap or fast process. Professional
polishers are very backlogged and very expensive. It could take two years
and $2000 to get your blade worked on. But it is worth it. It will keep
any rust currently on the blade from causing any more damage.
I hope this helped you.


Peace,

Matt

_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

Sorry Mr. Matt, I have lost the original post by Mr. Morre. I'm curious
about this blade. Are you able to send me the link to the original post?
Many thanks anyway.
Carlo

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: M. R. Williams [mailto:amacobra@...]
Inviato: domenica 4 maggio 2003 5.52
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: Re: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword

Mr. Moore,

Congratulations on your finds. You truly have a treasure in your
possession. The first thing that could suggest is to have it
professionally
cleaned and/or polished. The fittings that currently exist on the blade

mean little in comparison to the blade itself. If you do manage to get
it
cleaned and polished you should also get it placed into a Shirasaya.
Bear in mind that this is not a cheap or fast process. Professional
polishers are very backlogged and very expensive. It could take two
years
and $2000 to get your blade worked on. But it is worth it. It will
keep
any rust currently on the blade from causing any more damage.
I hope this helped you.


Peace,

Matt

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Carlo,

I would be happy to answer any questions about the blade of this sword. I am so new at this, I don't know what you might like in the way of descriptions.

By the way, thanks to all that have offered help to date.

Scott Moore

----- Original Message -----
From: Carlo Tacchini
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 3:07 AM
Subject: R: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword


Sorry Mr. Matt, I have lost the original post by Mr. Morre. I'm curious
about this blade. Are you able to send me the link to the original post?
Many thanks anyway.
Carlo

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: M. R. Williams [mailto:amacobra@...]
Inviato: domenica 4 maggio 2003 5.52
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: Re: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword

Mr. Moore,

Congratulations on your finds. You truly have a treasure in your
possession. The first thing that could suggest is to have it
professionally
cleaned and/or polished. The fittings that currently exist on the blade

mean little in comparison to the blade itself. If you do manage to get
it
cleaned and polished you should also get it placed into a Shirasaya.
Bear in mind that this is not a cheap or fast process. Professional
polishers are very backlogged and very expensive. It could take two
years
and $2000 to get your blade worked on. But it is worth it. It will
keep
any rust currently on the blade from causing any more damage.
I hope this helped you.


Peace,

Matt

_________________________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Scott-
Since it seems there is more than one sword nut on this list,
you might try posting pictures of the blades in question to the photo
album on this lists Yahoo group homepage. Researching same would I am
sure be a welcome exercise.
Tom

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks Mr. Moore.
I'm interested to the blade as I read the reply of mr. Matt that is
happy you have found such a good blade, so I'm asking about the original
description you have made of the blade, signature and furniture as I
have missed the start of this discussion.
This naturally if is of no disturb to you.
Japanese blades are my hobby and I am everyday in search for new friends
to talk with about Nihonto.
With regards,
Carlo
-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Scott Moore [mailto:sgmoore@...]
Inviato: domenica 4 maggio 2003 15.37
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: Re: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword

Carlo,

I would be happy to answer any questions about the blade of this
sword. I am so new at this, I don't know what you might like in the way
of descriptions.

By the way, thanks to all that have offered help to date.

Scott Moore

----- Original Message -----
From: Carlo Tacchini
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 3:07 AM
Subject: R: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword


Sorry Mr. Matt, I have lost the original post by Mr. Morre. I'm
curious
about this blade. Are you able to send me the link to the original
post?
Many thanks anyway.
Carlo

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: M. R. Williams [mailto:amacobra@...]
Inviato: domenica 4 maggio 2003 5.52
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: Re: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword

Mr. Moore,

Congratulations on your finds. You truly have a treasure in your
possession. The first thing that could suggest is to have it
professionally
cleaned and/or polished. The fittings that currently exist on the
blade

mean little in comparison to the blade itself. If you do manage to
get
it
cleaned and polished you should also get it placed into a Shirasaya.
Bear in mind that this is not a cheap or fast process. Professional

polishers are very backlogged and very expensive. It could take two
years
and $2000 to get your blade worked on. But it is worth it. It will
keep
any rust currently on the blade from causing any more damage.
I hope this helped you.


Peace,

Matt

_________________________________________________________________
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http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail



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Carlo,

Does not disturb me at all.

The furniture of this sword is in the Kyu Gunto style that I believe began or was popularized during the Russo/Japanese war. The grip is covered with an ivory colored pebbly material which I believe is the skin of a ray fish.

To show you how new I am to this, until a few weeks ago I did not know the blade could be removed from the handle. A friend showed me how. There is a signature on the tang, quite long - a large number of characters. My friend had someone translate the signature and was told that the smith who forged the blade worked as a smith during the 1680's.

So, now I am intrigued by the history of the sword and would like to see if I can find information about the smith.

If I can figure out how to do it, and if the moderators of the group say it is okay, I will be glad to add a few photos to the album for this group.

Thank you for your response and interest.

Scott

----- Original Message -----
From: Carlo Tacchini
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 12:20 PM
Subject: R: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword


Thanks Mr. Moore.
I'm interested to the blade as I read the reply of mr. Matt that is
happy you have found such a good blade, so I'm asking about the original
description you have made of the blade, signature and furniture as I
have missed the start of this discussion.
This naturally if is of no disturb to you.
Japanese blades are my hobby and I am everyday in search for new friends
to talk with about Nihonto.
With regards,
Carlo
-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Scott Moore [mailto:sgmoore@...]
Inviato: domenica 4 maggio 2003 15.37
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: Re: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword

Carlo,

I would be happy to answer any questions about the blade of this
sword. I am so new at this, I don't know what you might like in the way
of descriptions.

By the way, thanks to all that have offered help to date.

Scott Moore
----- Original Message -----
From: Carlo Tacchini
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 3:07 AM
Subject: R: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword


Sorry Mr. Matt, I have lost the original post by Mr. Morre. I'm
curious
about this blade. Are you able to send me the link to the original
post?
Many thanks anyway.
Carlo

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: M. R. Williams [mailto:amacobra@...]
Inviato: domenica 4 maggio 2003 5.52
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: Re: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword

Mr. Moore,

Congratulations on your finds. You truly have a treasure in your
possession. The first thing that could suggest is to have it
professionally
cleaned and/or polished. The fittings that currently exist on the
blade

mean little in comparison to the blade itself. If you do manage to
get
it
cleaned and polished you should also get it placed into a Shirasaya.
Bear in mind that this is not a cheap or fast process. Professional

polishers are very backlogged and very expensive. It could take two
years
and $2000 to get your blade worked on. But it is worth it. It will
keep
any rust currently on the blade from causing any more damage.
I hope this helped you.


Peace,

Matt

_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tom,

This is another case where I feel like a dummy. But, how do add photos to the album? Or create an album? I looked for the buttons or links to add a photo, but I did not see them.

I have a few pretty good photos that I would be glad to add put up for viewing.

Scott

----- Original Message -----
From: tom helm
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 12:29 PM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword


Scott-
Since it seems there is more than one sword nut on this list,
you might try posting pictures of the blades in question to the photo
album on this lists Yahoo group homepage. Researching same would I am
sure be a welcome exercise.
Tom

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I just changed it so members should be able to post photos here:

http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/samuraihistory/lst


--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Moore"
wrote:

> Tom,
>
> This is another case where I feel like a dummy. But, how do add

photos to the album? Or create an album? I looked for the buttons or
links to add a photo, but I did not see them.

>
> I have a few pretty good photos that I would be glad to add put

up for viewing.

>
> Scott
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: tom helm
> To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 12:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword
>
>
> Scott-
> Since it seems there is more than one sword nut on this

list,

> you might try posting pictures of the blades in question to the

photo

> album on this lists Yahoo group homepage. Researching same would

I am

> sure be a welcome exercise.
> Tom
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
>
>
>
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> ---
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of

Service.

>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In seeing the pictures it is most difinately of the Shin gunto style.
Which came into heavy use in WWII when katana became mass
produced.Prior to this time(during the meiji era 1867-1920's) the
wearing of them was outlawed all togather. Also before the meiji era
katana and wakisashi(Daisho) where worn only by the samurai class.

Though the meiji era didn't detur the carring of swords. it was
durong this time that we see the rise of the tsueken cane sword.
Anyway back to Carlos'sword.( I imagine it to be his as i think he
started the thread) it is an interiting peice but somethings about it
vex me: Are there characters on the other side of the tang? I was
unable to gleen such information from the photo's. Also where did the
tsuka come from? it seems quite athentic but the tsuba doesn't seem
to fit, more the elongated hand guard.

Hopefully that answered more questions than it posed

Meisei

Atsi Kazuri

In response to Tom's suggestion and the help of Kitsuno, I created an album on the group site and place 4 photos in it. I have more photographs, but I didn't want to overdo. If there is a specific something that somone wants to see, I will try to accomodate.

By the way, I have been focusing on the history of the blade and don't think I mentioned that the sword is in a steel scabbard that is covered in leather. It was obviously used and the leather is well worn but in remarkably good shape, This is in the 4th picture in the album.

Again, thanks for the interest and the help.

Scott

----- Original Message -----
From: Kitsuno
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 11:34 PM
Subject: [samuraihistory] Re: History of a Sword


I just changed it so members should be able to post photos here:

http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/samuraihistory/lst


--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Moore"
wrote:
> Tom,
>
> This is another case where I feel like a dummy. But, how do add
photos to the album? Or create an album? I looked for the buttons or
links to add a photo, but I did not see them.
>
> I have a few pretty good photos that I would be glad to add put
up for viewing.
>
> Scott
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: tom helm
> To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 12:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword
>
>
> Scott-
> Since it seems there is more than one sword nut on this
list,
> you might try posting pictures of the blades in question to the
photo
> album on this lists Yahoo group homepage. Researching same would
I am
> sure be a welcome exercise.
> Tom
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
>
>
>
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> ---
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The Russo-japanese war swords are good explained in the rather
simple-to-find book ''Military swords of Japan 1868-1945'' by Fuller and
Gregory. It is cheap and you can find it in Amazon.
If you have a scanner you can send the signature to me together a little
description of the blade. I'll try to find your man.
Welcome in the To-Ken lovers world.

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Scott Moore [mailto:sgmoore@...]
Inviato: lunedì 5 maggio 2003 4.21
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: Re: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword

Carlo,

Does not disturb me at all.

The furniture of this sword is in the Kyu Gunto style that I believe
began or was popularized during the Russo/Japanese war. The grip is
covered with an ivory colored pebbly material which I believe is the
skin of a ray fish.

To show you how new I am to this, until a few weeks ago I did not know
the blade could be removed from the handle. A friend showed me how.
There is a signature on the tang, quite long - a large number of
characters. My friend had someone translate the signature and was told
that the smith who forged the blade worked as a smith during the 1680's.

So, now I am intrigued by the history of the sword and would like to
see if I can find information about the smith.

If I can figure out how to do it, and if the moderators of the group
say it is okay, I will be glad to add a few photos to the album for this
group.

Thank you for your response and interest.

Scott

----- Original Message -----
From: Carlo Tacchini
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 12:20 PM
Subject: R: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword


Thanks Mr. Moore.
I'm interested to the blade as I read the reply of mr. Matt that is
happy you have found such a good blade, so I'm asking about the
original
description you have made of the blade, signature and furniture as I
have missed the start of this discussion.
This naturally if is of no disturb to you.
Japanese blades are my hobby and I am everyday in search for new
friends
to talk with about Nihonto.
With regards,
Carlo
-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Scott Moore [mailto:sgmoore@...]
Inviato: domenica 4 maggio 2003 15.37
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: Re: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword

Carlo,

I would be happy to answer any questions about the blade of this
sword. I am so new at this, I don't know what you might like in the
way
of descriptions.

By the way, thanks to all that have offered help to date.

Scott Moore
----- Original Message -----
From: Carlo Tacchini
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 3:07 AM
Subject: R: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword


Sorry Mr. Matt, I have lost the original post by Mr. Morre. I'm
curious
about this blade. Are you able to send me the link to the original
post?
Many thanks anyway.
Carlo

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: M. R. Williams [mailto:amacobra@...]
Inviato: domenica 4 maggio 2003 5.52
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: Re: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword

Mr. Moore,

Congratulations on your finds. You truly have a treasure in your
possession. The first thing that could suggest is to have it
professionally
cleaned and/or polished. The fittings that currently exist on the
blade

mean little in comparison to the blade itself. If you do manage to
get
it
cleaned and polished you should also get it placed into a Shirasaya.
Bear in mind that this is not a cheap or fast process.
Professional

polishers are very backlogged and very expensive. It could take two
years
and $2000 to get your blade worked on. But it is worth it. It will
keep
any rust currently on the blade from causing any more damage.
I hope this helped you.


Peace,

Matt

_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail



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Carlo,

Take a look at the photo of the tang that I posted. Does that give you the information you want.

Thank you for the information about the book.

Scott

----- Original Message -----
From: Carlo Tacchini
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 11:29 AM
Subject: R: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword


The Russo-japanese war swords are good explained in the rather
simple-to-find book ''Military swords of Japan 1868-1945'' by Fuller and
Gregory. It is cheap and you can find it in Amazon.
If you have a scanner you can send the signature to me together a little
description of the blade. I'll try to find your man.
Welcome in the To-Ken lovers world.

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Scott Moore [mailto:sgmoore@...]
Inviato: lunedì 5 maggio 2003 4.21
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: Re: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword

Carlo,

Does not disturb me at all.

The furniture of this sword is in the Kyu Gunto style that I believe
began or was popularized during the Russo/Japanese war. The grip is
covered with an ivory colored pebbly material which I believe is the
skin of a ray fish.

To show you how new I am to this, until a few weeks ago I did not know
the blade could be removed from the handle. A friend showed me how.
There is a signature on the tang, quite long - a large number of
characters. My friend had someone translate the signature and was told
that the smith who forged the blade worked as a smith during the 1680's.

So, now I am intrigued by the history of the sword and would like to
see if I can find information about the smith.

If I can figure out how to do it, and if the moderators of the group
say it is okay, I will be glad to add a few photos to the album for this
group.

Thank you for your response and interest.

Scott
----- Original Message -----
From: Carlo Tacchini
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 12:20 PM
Subject: R: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword


Thanks Mr. Moore.
I'm interested to the blade as I read the reply of mr. Matt that is
happy you have found such a good blade, so I'm asking about the
original
description you have made of the blade, signature and furniture as I
have missed the start of this discussion.
This naturally if is of no disturb to you.
Japanese blades are my hobby and I am everyday in search for new
friends
to talk with about Nihonto.
With regards,
Carlo
-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Scott Moore [mailto:sgmoore@...]
Inviato: domenica 4 maggio 2003 15.37
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: Re: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword

Carlo,

I would be happy to answer any questions about the blade of this
sword. I am so new at this, I don't know what you might like in the
way
of descriptions.

By the way, thanks to all that have offered help to date.

Scott Moore
----- Original Message -----
From: Carlo Tacchini
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 3:07 AM
Subject: R: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword


Sorry Mr. Matt, I have lost the original post by Mr. Morre. I'm
curious
about this blade. Are you able to send me the link to the original
post?
Many thanks anyway.
Carlo

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: M. R. Williams [mailto:amacobra@...]
Inviato: domenica 4 maggio 2003 5.52
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: Re: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword

Mr. Moore,

Congratulations on your finds. You truly have a treasure in your
possession. The first thing that could suggest is to have it
professionally
cleaned and/or polished. The fittings that currently exist on the
blade

mean little in comparison to the blade itself. If you do manage to
get
it
cleaned and polished you should also get it placed into a Shirasaya.
Bear in mind that this is not a cheap or fast process.
Professional

polishers are very backlogged and very expensive. It could take two
years
and $2000 to get your blade worked on. But it is worth it. It will
keep
any rust currently on the blade from causing any more damage.
I hope this helped you.


Peace,

Matt

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Atsi Kazuri,

The photographs in the album are of my sword and I will try to answer some of your questions.

There are no characters on the other side of the tang - only on the side shown in the photo. If you see there is a flap on the leather scabbard. If you raise that flap, you can see characters written inside, on the leather. I assume this is the signature of the sword owner.

Regarding the tsuka and tsuba - I do not know the answers to your doubts about whether they fit together. This sword was brought home to the US at the end of World War II and it is just as you see it. The sword has been on display or in storage all that time - almost 60 years.

Thank you for your comments and questions.

Scott

----- Original Message -----
From: Atisi Kazuari
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 5:14 PM
Subject: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword


In seeing the pictures it is most difinately of the Shin gunto style.
Which came into heavy use in WWII when katana became mass
produced.Prior to this time(during the meiji era 1867-1920's) the
wearing of them was outlawed all togather. Also before the meiji era
katana and wakisashi(Daisho) where worn only by the samurai class.

Though the meiji era didn't detur the carring of swords. it was
durong this time that we see the rise of the tsueken cane sword.
Anyway back to Carlos'sword.( I imagine it to be his as i think he
started the thread) it is an interiting peice but somethings about it
vex me: Are there characters on the other side of the tang? I was
unable to gleen such information from the photo's. Also where did the
tsuka come from? it seems quite athentic but the tsuba doesn't seem
to fit, more the elongated hand guard.

Hopefully that answered more questions than it posed

Meisei

Atsi Kazuri


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Scott!
Nice mounts, whomever fitted the sword did well to preserve
the mei. These are certainly not rare but they don't often come with
traditional blades in them.
I believe your mei reads Banshu ju Fujiwara Katsuyoshi saku.
Banshu is Harima so; Fujiwara Katsuyoshi of Harima made this...I am
not certain of this reading though,I should be interested in a better
shot of the signature (mei) perhaps with baby powder in it to make
the characters stand out and one more shot of the tip including the
three inches or so of temperline below it.
You might also post pics of your other sword, always happy to
talk katana,
Tom

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Some information (from the book I quoted) useful for you that can handle
the blade and see it in a proper manner :
Quote...
ARMY KYU-GUNTO PATTERN
This 'Kyu-gunto', or proto-military sword, must have superseded the 1877
sword patterns with the possible exception of the cavalry type. The
introduction date has not been established; one source suggests 1874,
which must be regarded as doubtful - otherwise, the kyu-gunto would have
preceded the 1877 patterns. Dating to the end of the nineteenth century
is more likely.
Early examples are thought to have mass-produced blades but most
survivors originate from the Russo-japanese War (1904-5) and usually
display hand-forged or ancestral blades. They were carried until
superseded by shin-gunto in the early 1930s, though many senior officers
continued to carry them during the Second World War. The hilts are
gilt-finished brass with a small pierced obverse guard of sakura (cherry
blossom) design and a long, thin knucklebow. The backstrap is wholly or
partially engraved according to rank, a general officers' pattern
incorporating a kiku or chrysanthemum blossom near the pommel. The grips
are rough or polished white same (rayskin) or, in rare cases, tortoise-
shell -normally confined to swords of field and generai officers. Black
same is also sometimes found. Gilt-wire binding fills the grip grooves.
Hilts of extreme length can be found when traditional blades are
utilised. They are retained by a removable bamboo peg, the mekugi, which
passes through the blade tang. Swords with mass- produced blades have
shorter hilts that may be removed by unscrewing the pommel-top nut in
the same manner as a 'parade sabre'. A few hand-forged blades have been
found with tangs tapered and threaded far this kind of fixing. A
decorated press stud with a spring clip, set in the fuchi (collar),
engages a slot in the scabbard mouth to retain the sword. Secondary
retention by means of a leather strap and press studs is also found. The
metal scabbards are painted or nickel or chromium-plated, and have wood
liners. A second (lower) ashi or suspension mount, when present, is
normally removable; a slot on the top of the mount slides aver the
scabbard shoe. Contemporary photographs seem to indicate that the
two-ashi sty/e was used with the two-sling full dress sword belt, while
the one-ashi fitting was confined to the service belt with its single
hanger of chain or leather. Non-commissioned officers carried a similar
sword with plain brass mounts, the backstrap often lacking the side
ears. Mass- produced blades and painted metal scabbards are prevalent.
There are many variations of this sword pattern, differing largely in
quality of fittings and the amount of decoration.
...unquote.
As you can read, still remain a good possibility to have found an
ancestral blade, but more details are needed.



-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Scott Moore [mailto:sgmoore@...]
Inviato: martedì 6 maggio 2003 4.28
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: Re: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword

Carlo,

Take a look at the photo of the tang that I posted. Does that give you
the information you want.

Thank you for the information about the book.

Scott

----- Original Message -----
From: Carlo Tacchini
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 11:29 AM
Subject: R: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword


The Russo-japanese war swords are good explained in the rather
simple-to-find book ''Military swords of Japan 1868-1945'' by Fuller
and
Gregory. It is cheap and you can find it in Amazon.
If you have a scanner you can send the signature to me together a
little
description of the blade. I'll try to find your man.
Welcome in the To-Ken lovers world.

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Scott Moore [mailto:sgmoore@...]
Inviato: lunedì 5 maggio 2003 4.21
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: Re: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword

Carlo,

Does not disturb me at all.

The furniture of this sword is in the Kyu Gunto style that I believe
began or was popularized during the Russo/Japanese war. The grip is
covered with an ivory colored pebbly material which I believe is the
skin of a ray fish.

To show you how new I am to this, until a few weeks ago I did not
know
the blade could be removed from the handle. A friend showed me how.
There is a signature on the tang, quite long - a large number of
characters. My friend had someone translate the signature and was told
that the smith who forged the blade worked as a smith during the
1680's.

So, now I am intrigued by the history of the sword and would like to
see if I can find information about the smith.

If I can figure out how to do it, and if the moderators of the group
say it is okay, I will be glad to add a few photos to the album for
this
group.

Thank you for your response and interest.

Scott
----- Original Message -----
From: Carlo Tacchini
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 12:20 PM
Subject: R: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword


Thanks Mr. Moore.
I'm interested to the blade as I read the reply of mr. Matt that is
happy you have found such a good blade, so I'm asking about the
original
description you have made of the blade, signature and furniture as I
have missed the start of this discussion.
This naturally if is of no disturb to you.
Japanese blades are my hobby and I am everyday in search for new
friends
to talk with about Nihonto.
With regards,
Carlo
-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Scott Moore [mailto:sgmoore@...]
Inviato: domenica 4 maggio 2003 15.37
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: Re: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword

Carlo,

I would be happy to answer any questions about the blade of this
sword. I am so new at this, I don't know what you might like in the
way
of descriptions.

By the way, thanks to all that have offered help to date.

Scott Moore
----- Original Message -----
From: Carlo Tacchini
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 3:07 AM
Subject: R: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword


Sorry Mr. Matt, I have lost the original post by Mr. Morre. I'm
curious
about this blade. Are you able to send me the link to the original
post?
Many thanks anyway.
Carlo

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: M. R. Williams [mailto:amacobra@...]
Inviato: domenica 4 maggio 2003 5.52
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: Re: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword

Mr. Moore,

Congratulations on your finds. You truly have a treasure in
your
possession. The first thing that could suggest is to have it
professionally
cleaned and/or polished. The fittings that currently exist on the
blade

mean little in comparison to the blade itself. If you do manage
to
get
it
cleaned and polished you should also get it placed into a
Shirasaya.
Bear in mind that this is not a cheap or fast process.
Professional

polishers are very backlogged and very expensive. It could take
two
years
and $2000 to get your blade worked on. But it is worth it. It
will
keep
any rust currently on the blade from causing any more damage.
I hope this helped you.


Peace,

Matt

_________________________________________________________________
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Ok, now I am able to see them.
Assuming that judging swords by internet pictures is a bit difficult, at
least, my suggestions are as follows:
the signature may be that translated by Tom. Sincerely I am not able to
read it correctly with the given image, but considering as hereafter, I
am doubtful about his originality.
The tang seems to me younger than said by your friend quoting it at
1680.
I am not able to see filemarks on the surface of the tang and can not
judge if the hamon is due to water or oil quenching,
the also-straightness of the blade and the wrap in leather of the
scabbard can suggest a post 1889 sword,
altought the very good conditions of all the ensamble may suggest a
sword for occupation corps of Korea.
The interesting fact is the presence of a shinogi.
Naturally, judging a sword by few photos is a very difficult thing, also
only generally speaking.
For better judgement you have to meet personally a trustable togishi.
Wait before polish it.


----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Scott Moore [mailto:sgmoore@...]
Inviato: martedì 6 maggio 2003 4.28
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: Re: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword

Carlo,

Take a look at the photo of the tang that I posted. Does that give you
the information you want.

Thank you for the information about the book.

Scott

----- Original Message -----
From: Carlo Tacchini
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 11:29 AM
Subject: R: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword


The Russo-japanese war swords are good explained in the rather
simple-to-find book ''Military swords of Japan 1868-1945'' by Fuller
and
Gregory. It is cheap and you can find it in Amazon.
If you have a scanner you can send the signature to me together a
little
description of the blade. I'll try to find your man.
Welcome in the To-Ken lovers world.

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Scott Moore [mailto:sgmoore@...]
Inviato: lunedì 5 maggio 2003 4.21
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: Re: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword

Carlo,

Does not disturb me at all.

The furniture of this sword is in the Kyu Gunto style that I believe
began or was popularized during the Russo/Japanese war. The grip is
covered with an ivory colored pebbly material which I believe is the
skin of a ray fish.

To show you how new I am to this, until a few weeks ago I did not
know
the blade could be removed from the handle. A friend showed me how.
There is a signature on the tang, quite long - a large number of
characters. My friend had someone translate the signature and was told
that the smith who forged the blade worked as a smith during the
1680's.

So, now I am intrigued by the history of the sword and would like to
see if I can find information about the smith.

If I can figure out how to do it, and if the moderators of the group
say it is okay, I will be glad to add a few photos to the album for
this
group.

Thank you for your response and interest.

Scott
----- Original Message -----
From: Carlo Tacchini
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 12:20 PM
Subject: R: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword


Thanks Mr. Moore.
I'm interested to the blade as I read the reply of mr. Matt that is
happy you have found such a good blade, so I'm asking about the
original
description you have made of the blade, signature and furniture as I
have missed the start of this discussion.
This naturally if is of no disturb to you.
Japanese blades are my hobby and I am everyday in search for new
friends
to talk with about Nihonto.
With regards,
Carlo
-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Scott Moore [mailto:sgmoore@...]
Inviato: domenica 4 maggio 2003 15.37
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: Re: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword

Carlo,

I would be happy to answer any questions about the blade of this
sword. I am so new at this, I don't know what you might like in the
way
of descriptions.

By the way, thanks to all that have offered help to date.

Scott Moore
----- Original Message -----
From: Carlo Tacchini
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 3:07 AM
Subject: R: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword


Sorry Mr. Matt, I have lost the original post by Mr. Morre. I'm
curious
about this blade. Are you able to send me the link to the original
post?
Many thanks anyway.
Carlo

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: M. R. Williams [mailto:amacobra@...]
Inviato: domenica 4 maggio 2003 5.52
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: Re: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword

Mr. Moore,

Congratulations on your finds. You truly have a treasure in
your
possession. The first thing that could suggest is to have it
professionally
cleaned and/or polished. The fittings that currently exist on the
blade

mean little in comparison to the blade itself. If you do manage
to
get
it
cleaned and polished you should also get it placed into a
Shirasaya.
Bear in mind that this is not a cheap or fast process.
Professional

polishers are very backlogged and very expensive. It could take
two
years
and $2000 to get your blade worked on. But it is worth it. It
will
keep
any rust currently on the blade from causing any more damage.
I hope this helped you.


Peace,

Matt

_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail



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Carlo-
Scott has the translation so he can easily straighten us out
and the mountings are clearly wartime production. Without further
info though, I stand by my translation. The Nihonto Meikan lists five
Katsuyoshi using this kanji, but only one who signed in this manner.
The shodai Ise Katsuyoshi was in the school of Sengo Masashige.
Masashige was a student of the infamous Muramasa. Banshu Katsuyoshi
was originally from the Ise line of Katsuyoshi and worked around the
Tenna era (1681-1683).
One would expect to see some characteristics of the Sengo
school in his works, thus pics of the kissaki and monouchi are
important. I agree no final determination can be made without sword
in hand, but I would posit that a faker or 'tribute' sword would
hardly choose to copy the work of a late generation smith from a
little known line.
Tom



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The shape (ichimonji it seems to me) of the tang match with the
swordsmith's work and period? And why so slight curvature in a 17th
century blade ?
It resemble to me no ''black color'' rust in the tang but it may be due
to the flash light surely used to take the photos. The handle is rather
long, suggesting a possible ancestral blade, but... also the signature
seems to me too much well preserved for having 300 years, as the sharp
angles of the tang and mekugi-ana. Sharpness may be explained with a
borders re-shaping (saving the signature) to fit with the kyugunto
mounting but I am still not able to see filemarks, whether the kanji are
rather good visible. Without jihada, boshi and a closer image of at
least little part of the hamon is hard to determine the school. If this
patterns do not match with the signature ?
May be a new swordsmith signature of later time? Because effectively, if
old, is hard to think of a fake with such a signature, but nowadays some
fakers make the same reasoning.
Honestly, signature is the last thing I see to, while here we have to
work with it as the first step. And to be sincere, I was not able to
read it as good as you have made. I have thinked about the little label
:
surrenders swords had such a lebel to make it easy to give back
(eventually...) the blade to the formerly owner, and this may suggest
the blade was of a certain interest.
But this is not a rule in kantei (fakes of surrenders blade with
''dedications'' have a their own market...). If Scott would see at the
back of the handle and other details comparing it to the description
shown in the part of the article I have posted, may be we can argue if
the mounting was intended for a High officer, enforcing the ''ancestral
blade'' theory.
By the way, Gen. Yamashita's sword was of the same period...
Please have no trouble to refute my suggestions as I'm taking this as a
learning session, with a lot of fun.
Thanks for your time.
Carlo

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: tom helm [mailto:junkmail@...]
Inviato: mercoledì 7 maggio 2003 9.06
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: Re: R: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword

Carlo-
Scott has the translation so he can easily straighten us out
and the mountings are clearly wartime production. Without further
info though, I stand by my translation. The Nihonto Meikan lists five
Katsuyoshi using this kanji, but only one who signed in this manner.
The shodai Ise Katsuyoshi was in the school of Sengo Masashige.
Masashige was a student of the infamous Muramasa. Banshu Katsuyoshi
was originally from the Ise line of Katsuyoshi and worked around the
Tenna era (1681-1683).
One would expect to see some characteristics of the Sengo
school in his works, thus pics of the kissaki and monouchi are
important. I agree no final determination can be made without sword
in hand, but I would posit that a faker or 'tribute' sword would
hardly choose to copy the work of a late generation smith from a
little known line.
Tom



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Hi Everyone,

I've been a member of this group for six months now and I learned a lot
from the discussions. Forgive me for my ignorance but how can I look
into the pictures posted in the yahoogroup? Can you please provide a URL
to the sword pictures described below. Thanks so much guys!

Gerald

-----Original Message-----
From: tom helm [mailto:junkmail@...]
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 3:06 PM
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: R: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword


Carlo-
Scott has the translation so he can easily straighten us out
and the mountings are clearly wartime production. Without further
info though, I stand by my translation. The Nihonto Meikan lists five
Katsuyoshi using this kanji, but only one who signed in this manner.
The shodai Ise Katsuyoshi was in the school of Sengo Masashige.
Masashige was a student of the infamous Muramasa. Banshu Katsuyoshi
was originally from the Ise line of Katsuyoshi and worked around the
Tenna era (1681-1683).
One would expect to see some characteristics of the Sengo
school in his works, thus pics of the kissaki and monouchi are
important. I agree no final determination can be made without sword
in hand, but I would posit that a faker or 'tribute' sword would
hardly choose to copy the work of a late generation smith from a
little known line.
Tom



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited.

Hey gerald, you asked where to get samurai sword pictures? well not to advertise another website, but google has really good pictures if you search under images.

-josh





---------------------------------
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The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Josh,

Thanks for your quick response.....but what I was referring to was the
sword pictures posted in this yahoogroup, the one that's being analyzed
for its authenticity. I don't know how to open it. Please advise. Thanks
much!

Regards,
Gerald

-----Original Message-----
From: Josh Waldeck [mailto:joshwaldeck@...]
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2003 12:03 PM
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: R: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword



Hey gerald, you asked where to get samurai sword pictures? well not to
advertise another website, but google has really good pictures if you
search under images.

-josh





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The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.

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This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited.

>The shape (ichimonji it seems to me) of the tang match with the
>swordsmith's work and period? And why so slight curvature in a 17th
>century blade ?

No but it would if the sword were suriage,
which is how it appears to my eye, this would reduce
the sori as well. Remembering that in the 1660's
a shallow curve was en vogue.

>It resemble to me no ''black color'' rust in the tang but it may be due
>to the flash light surely used to take the photos. The handle is rather
>long, suggesting a possible ancestral blade, but... also the signature
>seems to me too much well preserved for having 300 years,

I have seen older blades that looked new,
with surprisingly little rust for all their years.
A custom handle may indicate an older blade or just the preference of
the swordsman..

>as the sharp
>angles of the tang and mekugi-ana. Sharpness may be explained with a
>borders re-shaping (saving the signature) to fit with the kyugunto
>mounting

may have been altered to fit the gunto mounts true

>but I am still not able to see filemarks, whether the kanji are
>rather good visible. Without jihada, boshi and a closer image of at
>least little part of the hamon is hard to determine the school. If this
>patterns do not match with the signature ?

Yes correct kantei dictates that the signature confirms what you see
in the blade. This is why I asked for pics of the kissaki and
monouchi.

>May be a new swordsmith signature of later time? Because effectively, if
>old, is hard to think of a fake with such a signature, but nowadays some
>fakers make the same reasoning.

Granted but fakers want to sell swords, faking an obscure signature
may throw off the wary but would hardly bring enough money to be
worth the trouble. The Meikan is a listing of over 20,000 smiths
including gendai, if there is a later smith with this signature he
would turn up here. Although Banshu (Harima) did not exist after 1870
or so, thus it would be very unlikely to turn up in a gendai sig.
Again I ask Scott, what does his translation say, and can he
be so kind as to provide more pics. As you say we need to kantei the
sword and not the koshirae.
-t

>Honestly, signature is the last thing I see to, while here we have to
>work with it as the first step. And to be sincere, I was not able to
>read it as good as you have made. I have thinked about the little label
>:
>surrenders swords had such a lebel to make it easy to give back
>(eventually...) the blade to the formerly owner, and this may suggest
>the blade was of a certain interest.
>But this is not a rule in kantei (fakes of surrenders blade with
>''dedications'' have a their own market...). If Scott would see at the
>back of the handle and other details comparing it to the description
>shown in the part of the article I have posted, may be we can argue if
>the mounting was intended for a High officer, enforcing the ''ancestral
>blade'' theory.
>By the way, Gen. Yamashita's sword was of the same period...
>Please have no trouble to refute my suggestions as I'm taking this as a
>learning session, with a lot of fun.
>Thanks for your time.
>Carlo
>
>-----Messaggio originale-----
>Da: tom helm [mailto:junkmail@...]
>Inviato: mercoledì 7 maggio 2003 9.06
>A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
>Oggetto: Re: R: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword
>
>Carlo-
> Scott has the translation so he can easily straighten us out
>and the mountings are clearly wartime production. Without further
>info though, I stand by my translation. The Nihonto Meikan lists five
>Katsuyoshi using this kanji, but only one who signed in this manner.
>The shodai Ise Katsuyoshi was in the school of Sengo Masashige.
>Masashige was a student of the infamous Muramasa. Banshu Katsuyoshi
>was originally from the Ise line of Katsuyoshi and worked around the
>Tenna era (1681-1683).
> One would expect to see some characteristics of the Sengo
>school in his works, thus pics of the kissaki and monouchi are
>important. I agree no final determination can be made without sword
>in hand, but I would posit that a faker or 'tribute' sword would
>hardly choose to copy the work of a late generation smith from a
>little known line.
>Tom
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
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><http://www.samurai-archives.com>http://www.samurai-archives.com
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>samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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I have already had momentaneous problems till I realized that I had to
subscrive to the yahoo group. Also If you receive this post you have to
register (free) in order to achieve the privilege of see the photos.
The link was posted by Kitsuno, but when registered you can click on the
left side of the screen on ''photos'' or something similar link.

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: gerald.divinagracia@...
[mailto:gerald.divinagracia@...]
Inviato: giovedì 8 maggio 2003 12.09
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: RE: R: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword

Hi Everyone,

I've been a member of this group for six months now and I learned a lot
from the discussions. Forgive me for my ignorance but how can I look
into the pictures posted in the yahoogroup? Can you please provide a URL
to the sword pictures described below. Thanks so much guys!

Gerald

-----Original Message-----
From: tom helm [mailto:junkmail@...]
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 3:06 PM
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: R: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword


Carlo-
Scott has the translation so he can easily straighten us out
and the mountings are clearly wartime production. Without further
info though, I stand by my translation. The Nihonto Meikan lists five
Katsuyoshi using this kanji, but only one who signed in this manner.
The shodai Ise Katsuyoshi was in the school of Sengo Masashige.
Masashige was a student of the infamous Muramasa. Banshu Katsuyoshi
was originally from the Ise line of Katsuyoshi and worked around the
Tenna era (1681-1683).
One would expect to see some characteristics of the Sengo
school in his works, thus pics of the kissaki and monouchi are
important. I agree no final determination can be made without sword
in hand, but I would posit that a faker or 'tribute' sword would
hardly choose to copy the work of a late generation smith from a
little known line.
Tom



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Again, thanks for your time. Is ever interesting to talk about these
things.
Anyway, I am used to European market, in which a lukystrike, as
eventuelly this one, to find ancestral, also if not Josaku or Sansaku,
blades in gunto mounting is extincted by the early '80 at least. So I am
pretty sceptical by nature about this. But American market is another
matter...


-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: tom helm [mailto:junkmail@...]
Inviato: venerdì 9 maggio 2003 8.26
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: Re: R: R: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword

>The shape (ichimonji it seems to me) of the tang match with the
>swordsmith's work and period? And why so slight curvature in a 17th
>century blade ?

No but it would if the sword were suriage,
which is how it appears to my eye, this would reduce
the sori as well. Remembering that in the 1660's
a shallow curve was en vogue.

>It resemble to me no ''black color'' rust in the tang but it may be due
>to the flash light surely used to take the photos. The handle is rather
>long, suggesting a possible ancestral blade, but... also the signature
>seems to me too much well preserved for having 300 years,

I have seen older blades that looked new,
with surprisingly little rust for all their years.
A custom handle may indicate an older blade or just the preference of
the swordsman..

>as the sharp
>angles of the tang and mekugi-ana. Sharpness may be explained with a
>borders re-shaping (saving the signature) to fit with the kyugunto
>mounting

may have been altered to fit the gunto mounts true

>but I am still not able to see filemarks, whether the kanji are
>rather good visible. Without jihada, boshi and a closer image of at
>least little part of the hamon is hard to determine the school. If this
>patterns do not match with the signature ?

Yes correct kantei dictates that the signature confirms what you see
in the blade. This is why I asked for pics of the kissaki and
monouchi.

>May be a new swordsmith signature of later time? Because effectively,

if

>old, is hard to think of a fake with such a signature, but nowadays

some

>fakers make the same reasoning.

Granted but fakers want to sell swords, faking an obscure signature
may throw off the wary but would hardly bring enough money to be
worth the trouble. The Meikan is a listing of over 20,000 smiths
including gendai, if there is a later smith with this signature he
would turn up here. Although Banshu (Harima) did not exist after 1870
or so, thus it would be very unlikely to turn up in a gendai sig.
Again I ask Scott, what does his translation say, and can he
be so kind as to provide more pics. As you say we need to kantei the
sword and not the koshirae.
-t

>Honestly, signature is the last thing I see to, while here we have to
>work with it as the first step. And to be sincere, I was not able to
>read it as good as you have made. I have thinked about the little label
>:
>surrenders swords had such a lebel to make it easy to give back
>(eventually...) the blade to the formerly owner, and this may suggest
>the blade was of a certain interest.
>But this is not a rule in kantei (fakes of surrenders blade with
>''dedications'' have a their own market...). If Scott would see at the
>back of the handle and other details comparing it to the description
>shown in the part of the article I have posted, may be we can argue if
>the mounting was intended for a High officer, enforcing the ''ancestral
>blade'' theory.
>By the way, Gen. Yamashita's sword was of the same period...
>Please have no trouble to refute my suggestions as I'm taking this as a
>learning session, with a lot of fun.
>Thanks for your time.
>Carlo
>
>-----Messaggio originale-----
>Da: tom helm [mailto:junkmail@...]
>Inviato: mercoledì 7 maggio 2003 9.06
>A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
>Oggetto: Re: R: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword
>
>Carlo-
> Scott has the translation so he can easily straighten us out
>and the mountings are clearly wartime production. Without further
>info though, I stand by my translation. The Nihonto Meikan lists five
>Katsuyoshi using this kanji, but only one who signed in this manner.
>The shodai Ise Katsuyoshi was in the school of Sengo Masashige.
>Masashige was a student of the infamous Muramasa. Banshu Katsuyoshi
>was originally from the Ise line of Katsuyoshi and worked around the
>Tenna era (1681-1683).
> One would expect to see some characteristics of the Sengo
>school in his works, thus pics of the kissaki and monouchi are
>important. I agree no final determination can be made without sword
>in hand, but I would posit that a faker or 'tribute' sword would
>hardly choose to copy the work of a late generation smith from a
>little known line.
>Tom
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>Samurai Archives:
><http://www.samurai-archives.com>http://www.samurai-archives.com
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>samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
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>
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><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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>
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5043713:HM/A=1524963/R=0/*http://hits.411web.com/cgi-bin/autoredir?camp=
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Tom & Carlo,

The translation I have is: Fujiwara Katsuyoshi of Banshu Province

Scott

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, tom helm wrote:
> Carlo-
> Scott has the translation so he can easily straighten us out
> and the mountings are clearly wartime production. Without further
> info though, I stand by my translation. The Nihonto Meikan lists
five
> Katsuyoshi using this kanji, but only one who signed in this
manner.
> The shodai Ise Katsuyoshi was in the school of Sengo Masashige.
> Masashige was a student of the infamous Muramasa. Banshu Katsuyoshi
> was originally from the Ise line of Katsuyoshi and worked around
the
> Tenna era (1681-1683).
> One would expect to see some characteristics of the Sengo
> school in his works, thus pics of the kissaki and monouchi are
> important. I agree no final determination can be made without sword
> in hand, but I would posit that a faker or 'tribute' sword would
> hardly choose to copy the work of a late generation smith from a
> little known line.
> Tom
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Let me shed some light on two questions raised by Carlo:

The photographs were not taken with a flash. I had trouble getting
clear photos with a flash so I took the sword outside and took the
photos in sunlight.

The tang with its kanji being well preserved - no one in my family
even knew that the blade could be removed from the handle until
several weeks ago. Therefore, the tang never came out of the handle
from 1945 until 2003 and who knows how long before 1945.

Scott

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Carlo Tacchini"
wrote:

> The shape (ichimonji it seems to me) of the tang match with the
> swordsmith's work and period? And why so slight curvature in a 17th
> century blade ?
> It resemble to me no ''black color'' rust in the tang but it may be

due

> to the flash light surely used to take the photos. The handle is

rather

> long, suggesting a possible ancestral blade, but... also the

signature

> seems to me too much well preserved for having 300 years, as the

sharp

> angles of the tang and mekugi-ana. Sharpness may be explained with a
> borders re-shaping (saving the signature) to fit with the kyugunto
> mounting but I am still not able to see filemarks, whether the

kanji are

> rather good visible. Without jihada, boshi and a closer image of at
> least little part of the hamon is hard to determine the school. If

this

> patterns do not match with the signature ?
> May be a new swordsmith signature of later time? Because

effectively, if

> old, is hard to think of a fake with such a signature, but nowadays

some

> fakers make the same reasoning.
> Honestly, signature is the last thing I see to, while here we have

to

> work with it as the first step. And to be sincere, I was not able to
> read it as good as you have made. I have thinked about the little

label

> :
> surrenders swords had such a lebel to make it easy to give back
> (eventually...) the blade to the formerly owner, and this may

suggest

> the blade was of a certain interest.
> But this is not a rule in kantei (fakes of surrenders blade with
> ''dedications'' have a their own market...). If Scott would see at

the

> back of the handle and other details comparing it to the description
> shown in the part of the article I have posted, may be we can argue

if

> the mounting was intended for a High officer, enforcing

the ''ancestral

> blade'' theory.
> By the way, Gen. Yamashita's sword was of the same period...
> Please have no trouble to refute my suggestions as I'm taking this

as a

> learning session, with a lot of fun.
> Thanks for your time.
> Carlo
>
> -----Messaggio originale-----
> Da: tom helm [mailto:junkmail@t...]
> Inviato: mercoledì 7 maggio 2003 9.06
> A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Oggetto: Re: R: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword
>
> Carlo-
> Scott has the translation so he can easily straighten us out
> and the mountings are clearly wartime production. Without further
> info though, I stand by my translation. The Nihonto Meikan lists

five

> Katsuyoshi using this kanji, but only one who signed in this

manner.

> The shodai Ise Katsuyoshi was in the school of Sengo Masashige.
> Masashige was a student of the infamous Muramasa. Banshu Katsuyoshi
> was originally from the Ise line of Katsuyoshi and worked around

the

> Tenna era (1681-1683).
> One would expect to see some characteristics of the Sengo
> school in his works, thus pics of the kissaki and monouchi are
> important. I agree no final determination can be made without sword
> in hand, but I would posit that a faker or 'tribute' sword would
> hardly choose to copy the work of a late generation smith from a
> little known line.
> Tom
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> ---
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

I was not aware bifore that the sword was already yours by the 1945.
This is of a basic importance to exclude the possibility of a fake.
As you have not bought it recently, much of my scepticism is now gone.
The possibility that an officer had a bad fake in their scabbard is
almost
Inexistent. But we have to understand the situation of the blade at the
surrender moment.


----Messaggio originale-----
Da: friopoops [mailto:sgmoore@...]
Inviato: sabato 10 maggio 2003 13.57
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: Re: R: R: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword

Let me shed some light on two questions raised by Carlo:

The photographs were not taken with a flash. I had trouble getting
clear photos with a flash so I took the sword outside and took the
photos in sunlight.

The tang with its kanji being well preserved - no one in my family
even knew that the blade could be removed from the handle until
several weeks ago. Therefore, the tang never came out of the handle
from 1945 until 2003 and who knows how long before 1945.

Scott

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Carlo Tacchini"
wrote:

> The shape (ichimonji it seems to me) of the tang match with the
> swordsmith's work and period? And why so slight curvature in a 17th
> century blade ?
> It resemble to me no ''black color'' rust in the tang but it may be

due

> to the flash light surely used to take the photos. The handle is

rather

> long, suggesting a possible ancestral blade, but... also the

signature

> seems to me too much well preserved for having 300 years, as the

sharp

> angles of the tang and mekugi-ana. Sharpness may be explained with a
> borders re-shaping (saving the signature) to fit with the kyugunto
> mounting but I am still not able to see filemarks, whether the

kanji are

> rather good visible. Without jihada, boshi and a closer image of at
> least little part of the hamon is hard to determine the school. If

this

> patterns do not match with the signature ?
> May be a new swordsmith signature of later time? Because

effectively, if

> old, is hard to think of a fake with such a signature, but nowadays

some

> fakers make the same reasoning.
> Honestly, signature is the last thing I see to, while here we have

to

> work with it as the first step. And to be sincere, I was not able to
> read it as good as you have made. I have thinked about the little

label

> :
> surrenders swords had such a lebel to make it easy to give back
> (eventually...) the blade to the formerly owner, and this may

suggest

> the blade was of a certain interest.
> But this is not a rule in kantei (fakes of surrenders blade with
> ''dedications'' have a their own market...). If Scott would see at

the

> back of the handle and other details comparing it to the description
> shown in the part of the article I have posted, may be we can argue

if

> the mounting was intended for a High officer, enforcing

the ''ancestral

> blade'' theory.
> By the way, Gen. Yamashita's sword was of the same period...
> Please have no trouble to refute my suggestions as I'm taking this

as a

> learning session, with a lot of fun.
> Thanks for your time.
> Carlo
>
> -----Messaggio originale-----
> Da: tom helm [mailto:junkmail@t...]
> Inviato: mercoledì 7 maggio 2003 9.06
> A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Oggetto: Re: R: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword
>
> Carlo-
> Scott has the translation so he can easily straighten us out
> and the mountings are clearly wartime production. Without further
> info though, I stand by my translation. The Nihonto Meikan lists

five

> Katsuyoshi using this kanji, but only one who signed in this

manner.

> The shodai Ise Katsuyoshi was in the school of Sengo Masashige.
> Masashige was a student of the infamous Muramasa. Banshu Katsuyoshi
> was originally from the Ise line of Katsuyoshi and worked around

the

> Tenna era (1681-1683).
> One would expect to see some characteristics of the Sengo
> school in his works, thus pics of the kissaki and monouchi are
> important. I agree no final determination can be made without sword
> in hand, but I would posit that a faker or 'tribute' sword would
> hardly choose to copy the work of a late generation smith from a
> little known line.
> Tom
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
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Unfortunately, I won't be able to shed much light on the surrender of
the sword. My father-in-law brought it to the USA with him at the end
of the war. He was in the Army Air Corps and stationed in New Guinea
when the war. He passed away several years ago. No one ever thought
to ask him how he came to have the swords.

Scott

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Carlo Tacchini"
wrote:

> I was not aware bifore that the sword was already yours by the 1945.
> This is of a basic importance to exclude the possibility of a fake.
> As you have not bought it recently, much of my scepticism is now

gone.

> The possibility that an officer had a bad fake in their scabbard is
> almost
> Inexistent. But we have to understand the situation of the blade at

the

> surrender moment.
>
>
> ----Messaggio originale-----
> Da: friopoops [mailto:sgmoore@e...]
> Inviato: sabato 10 maggio 2003 13.57
> A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Oggetto: Re: R: R: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword
>
> Let me shed some light on two questions raised by Carlo:
>
> The photographs were not taken with a flash. I had trouble getting
> clear photos with a flash so I took the sword outside and took the
> photos in sunlight.
>
> The tang with its kanji being well preserved - no one in my family
> even knew that the blade could be removed from the handle until
> several weeks ago. Therefore, the tang never came out of the handle
> from 1945 until 2003 and who knows how long before 1945.
>
> Scott
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Carlo Tacchini"
> wrote:
> > The shape (ichimonji it seems to me) of the tang match with the
> > swordsmith's work and period? And why so slight curvature in a

17th

> > century blade ?
> > It resemble to me no ''black color'' rust in the tang but it may

be

> due
> > to the flash light surely used to take the photos. The handle is
> rather
> > long, suggesting a possible ancestral blade, but... also the
> signature
> > seems to me too much well preserved for having 300 years, as the
> sharp
> > angles of the tang and mekugi-ana. Sharpness may be explained

with a

> > borders re-shaping (saving the signature) to fit with the kyugunto
> > mounting but I am still not able to see filemarks, whether the
> kanji are
> > rather good visible. Without jihada, boshi and a closer image of

at

> > least little part of the hamon is hard to determine the school.

If

> this
> > patterns do not match with the signature ?
> > May be a new swordsmith signature of later time? Because
> effectively, if
> > old, is hard to think of a fake with such a signature, but

nowadays

> some
> > fakers make the same reasoning.
> > Honestly, signature is the last thing I see to, while here we

have

> to
> > work with it as the first step. And to be sincere, I was not able

to

> > read it as good as you have made. I have thinked about the little
> label
> > :
> > surrenders swords had such a lebel to make it easy to give back
> > (eventually...) the blade to the formerly owner, and this may
> suggest
> > the blade was of a certain interest.
> > But this is not a rule in kantei (fakes of surrenders blade with
> > ''dedications'' have a their own market...). If Scott would see

at

> the
> > back of the handle and other details comparing it to the

description

> > shown in the part of the article I have posted, may be we can

argue

> if
> > the mounting was intended for a High officer, enforcing
> the ''ancestral
> > blade'' theory.
> > By the way, Gen. Yamashita's sword was of the same period...
> > Please have no trouble to refute my suggestions as I'm taking

this

> as a
> > learning session, with a lot of fun.
> > Thanks for your time.
> > Carlo
> >
> > -----Messaggio originale-----
> > Da: tom helm [mailto:junkmail@t...]
> > Inviato: mercoledì 7 maggio 2003 9.06
> > A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> > Oggetto: Re: R: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword
> >
> > Carlo-
> > Scott has the translation so he can easily straighten us out
> > and the mountings are clearly wartime production. Without further
> > info though, I stand by my translation. The Nihonto Meikan lists
> five
> > Katsuyoshi using this kanji, but only one who signed in this
> manner.
> > The shodai Ise Katsuyoshi was in the school of Sengo Masashige.
> > Masashige was a student of the infamous Muramasa. Banshu

Katsuyoshi

> > was originally from the Ise line of Katsuyoshi and worked around
> the
> > Tenna era (1681-1683).
> > One would expect to see some characteristics of the Sengo
> > school in his works, thus pics of the kissaki and monouchi are
> > important. I agree no final determination can be made without

sword

> > in hand, but I would posit that a faker or 'tribute' sword would
> > hardly choose to copy the work of a late generation smith from a
> > little known line.
> > Tom
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> > ---
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
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Carlo-
I agree a healthy skepticism is necessary when dealing with
new discoveries especially nihonto. Heres hoping Scott has scored a
"lucky strike" as you say.
-t

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

If the blade is in their original ''surrender'' conditions, there are
more than few possibilities of this. Sadly, I'm not able to see anything
useful from the new photo of the blade. Only that it seems some rust in
the kissaki, but may be not. Naturally, also when surrender occurred,
bad blades were used to save better ones. Depend on when, how, and
where. If the blade was given personally to the G.I. of the owner family
in the jungle of Sumatra, Borneo or more likely Philippines (being
American) there are few possibilities of a blade exchange. Otherwise...
I have seen some ''original kamikaze flags'' made by japanese captives
under
G.I.'s request, showing any type of insult in kanji/katakana/hiragana
!!!

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: tom helm [mailto:junkmail@...]
Inviato: domenica 11 maggio 2003 2.35
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: Re: R: R: R: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword

Carlo-
I agree a healthy skepticism is necessary when dealing with
new discoveries especially nihonto. Heres hoping Scott has scored a
"lucky strike" as you say.
-t

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Mr. Moore,

The most common way to explain the acquisition of a Nihonto at the end of
WWII is to say that is was grabbed out of a pile of weapons. When the
Japanese surrendered they stockpiled the weapons (firearms, blades, etc)
usually at harbors, airfields, or some other major location so that the
American forces could easily collect them. In most cases the officers in
charge of the local military units would allow the soldiers to pick through
the piles and take what they wanted. That is how my grandfather got his
rifle and sword.
Very rarely did a soldier kill an officer on the battlefield and take his
sword then. For two reasons. One, killing an officer would require getting
close enough to have killed all the other soldiers around him. Two, they
were in the middle of a war, they would not have had time to bend down and
pick up a sword while avoiding flying bullets.
I hope that this helps you determine how the weapons were acquired. The
more posts I read about it the more I believe that you have a very nice
find.


Peace,

Matt Williams

_________________________________________________________________
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Matt,

Thank you for your information and thoughts. My mother-in-law told me
yesterday that her late husband was in New Guinea at the end of the war, but
travelled to Japan before returning to the states. She doesn't remember if
he ever said where he obtained the swords.

Scott

----- Original Message -----
From: "M. R. Williams" <amacobra@...>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 9:20 AM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword


> Mr. Moore,
>
> The most common way to explain the acquisition of a Nihonto at the end
of
> WWII is to say that is was grabbed out of a pile of weapons. When the
> Japanese surrendered they stockpiled the weapons (firearms, blades, etc)
> usually at harbors, airfields, or some other major location so that the
> American forces could easily collect them. In most cases the officers in
> charge of the local military units would allow the soldiers to pick
through
> the piles and take what they wanted. That is how my grandfather got his
> rifle and sword.
> Very rarely did a soldier kill an officer on the battlefield and take
his
> sword then. For two reasons. One, killing an officer would require
getting
> close enough to have killed all the other soldiers around him. Two, they
> were in the middle of a war, they would not have had time to bend down and
> pick up a sword while avoiding flying bullets.
> I hope that this helps you determine how the weapons were acquired. The
> more posts I read about it the more I believe that you have a very nice
> find.
>
>
> Peace,
>
> Matt Williams
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
>
>
>
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> ---
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

So much time passed... I suggest this :
- Do not make anything to the blade or the tang in order to discover
better details or, worst, in order to let it sharper. Do not touch the
blade, clean it with paper nose tissue, maintain it in the scabbard
cutting edge up.
- Search for easy and near To-ken fun club, give it personally (without
leaving them alone in their hands) for a first, direct kantei if they
agree to make it free. If they agree the blade is a traditional
hand-made and is in recoverable conditions, ask for a qualified togishi
(polisher).
-Get in touch with the togishi, asking for polish prices, usually XY U$
at inch (both sides included) of the sharp part of the blade. At the
finish of the work all the mystery of the blade will be unveiled.
Personally, I gave to polisher also a blade that is not at present day
an investment. The price paid and the polish was superior to the market
price.
But is a personal thought. To give back a blade to their dignity is for
me enough for the price paid...


-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Scott Moore [mailto:sgmoore@...]
Inviato: domenica 11 maggio 2003 19.29
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: Re: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword

Matt,

Thank you for your information and thoughts. My mother-in-law told me
yesterday that her late husband was in New Guinea at the end of the war,
but
travelled to Japan before returning to the states. She doesn't remember
if
he ever said where he obtained the swords.

Scott

----- Original Message -----
From: "M. R. Williams" <amacobra@...>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 9:20 AM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword


> Mr. Moore,
>
> The most common way to explain the acquisition of a Nihonto at the
end
of
> WWII is to say that is was grabbed out of a pile of weapons. When the
> Japanese surrendered they stockpiled the weapons (firearms, blades,
etc)
> usually at harbors, airfields, or some other major location so that
the
> American forces could easily collect them. In most cases the officers
in
> charge of the local military units would allow the soldiers to pick
through
> the piles and take what they wanted. That is how my grandfather got
his
> rifle and sword.
> Very rarely did a soldier kill an officer on the battlefield and
take
his
> sword then. For two reasons. One, killing an officer would require
getting
> close enough to have killed all the other soldiers around him. Two,
they
> were in the middle of a war, they would not have had time to bend down
and
> pick up a sword while avoiding flying bullets.
> I hope that this helps you determine how the weapons were acquired.
The
> more posts I read about it the more I believe that you have a very
nice
> find.
>
>
> Peace,
>
> Matt Williams
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
>
>
>
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> ---
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>




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Carlo,

Thank you for your comments. I, too, believe that I should get this
sword and its blade into the hands of an expert. I am working on a
way to do that and think that I will within a couple of weeks.

Scott

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Carlo Tacchini"
wrote:

> So much time passed... I suggest this :
> - Do not make anything to the blade or the tang in order to discover
> better details or, worst, in order to let it sharper. Do not touch

the

> blade, clean it with paper nose tissue, maintain it in the scabbard
> cutting edge up.
> - Search for easy and near To-ken fun club, give it personally

(without

> leaving them alone in their hands) for a first, direct kantei if

they

> agree to make it free. If they agree the blade is a traditional
> hand-made and is in recoverable conditions, ask for a qualified

togishi

> (polisher).
> -Get in touch with the togishi, asking for polish prices, usually

XY U$

> at inch (both sides included) of the sharp part of the blade. At the
> finish of the work all the mystery of the blade will be unveiled.
> Personally, I gave to polisher also a blade that is not at present

day

> an investment. The price paid and the polish was superior to the

market

> price.
> But is a personal thought. To give back a blade to their dignity is

for

> me enough for the price paid...
>
>
> -----Messaggio originale-----
> Da: Scott Moore [mailto:sgmoore@e...]
> Inviato: domenica 11 maggio 2003 19.29
> A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Oggetto: Re: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword
>
> Matt,
>
> Thank you for your information and thoughts. My mother-in-law

told me

> yesterday that her late husband was in New Guinea at the end of the

war,

> but
> travelled to Japan before returning to the states. She doesn't

remember

> if
> he ever said where he obtained the swords.
>
> Scott
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "M. R. Williams"
> To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 9:20 AM
> Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword
>
>
> > Mr. Moore,
> >
> > The most common way to explain the acquisition of a Nihonto at

the

> end
> of
> > WWII is to say that is was grabbed out of a pile of weapons.

When the

> > Japanese surrendered they stockpiled the weapons (firearms,

blades,

> etc)
> > usually at harbors, airfields, or some other major location so

that

> the
> > American forces could easily collect them. In most cases the

officers

> in
> > charge of the local military units would allow the soldiers to

pick

> through
> > the piles and take what they wanted. That is how my grandfather

got

> his
> > rifle and sword.
> > Very rarely did a soldier kill an officer on the battlefield and
> take
> his
> > sword then. For two reasons. One, killing an officer would

require

> getting
> > close enough to have killed all the other soldiers around him.

Two,

> they
> > were in the middle of a war, they would not have had time to bend

down

> and
> > pick up a sword while avoiding flying bullets.
> > I hope that this helps you determine how the weapons were

acquired.

> The
> > more posts I read about it the more I believe that you have a very
> nice
> > find.
> >
> >
> > Peace,
> >
> > Matt Williams
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
> > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
> >
> >
> >
> > Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> > ---
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
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>
>
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In any case, do not discourage you about the costs of polishing and
eventually of a new rest-scabbard (that I highly recommend due to the
fact the one you have is metallic), as you have a big advantage.
You haven't any buying cost. And if the blade, as probably, is hand
made, water quenched and recoverable, also if not of high quality, it
has a value superior to the costs you will involved to, and this value
can only rise in the future. If the togishi say the blade is not
recoverable, have patience but if someone ASK TO BUY the blade as it is
''not so good to be repaired'' or other, DO NOT SELL IT !!! If he want
it is the evidence that is a good blade... Search someone other.
My address is tsubame1@.... I'll be glade if you'll write me about
the final of this story as what is happened to you is rather rare after
more of 50 years by the surrender.
My best wishes to you and to your blade.
P.S. IMPORTANT. Buy a book about japanese swords and their maintenance.
Is VERY important that you learn how maintain correctly your blade.

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: friopoops [mailto:sgmoore@...]
Inviato: lunedì 12 maggio 2003 5.02
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: Re: R: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword

Carlo,

Thank you for your comments. I, too, believe that I should get this
sword and its blade into the hands of an expert. I am working on a
way to do that and think that I will within a couple of weeks.

Scott

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Carlo Tacchini"
wrote:

> So much time passed... I suggest this :
> - Do not make anything to the blade or the tang in order to discover
> better details or, worst, in order to let it sharper. Do not touch

the

> blade, clean it with paper nose tissue, maintain it in the scabbard
> cutting edge up.
> - Search for easy and near To-ken fun club, give it personally

(without

> leaving them alone in their hands) for a first, direct kantei if

they

> agree to make it free. If they agree the blade is a traditional
> hand-made and is in recoverable conditions, ask for a qualified

togishi

> (polisher).
> -Get in touch with the togishi, asking for polish prices, usually

XY U$

> at inch (both sides included) of the sharp part of the blade. At the
> finish of the work all the mystery of the blade will be unveiled.
> Personally, I gave to polisher also a blade that is not at present

day

> an investment. The price paid and the polish was superior to the

market

> price.
> But is a personal thought. To give back a blade to their dignity is

for

> me enough for the price paid...
>
>
> -----Messaggio originale-----
> Da: Scott Moore [mailto:sgmoore@e...]
> Inviato: domenica 11 maggio 2003 19.29
> A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Oggetto: Re: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword
>
> Matt,
>
> Thank you for your information and thoughts. My mother-in-law

told me

> yesterday that her late husband was in New Guinea at the end of the

war,

> but
> travelled to Japan before returning to the states. She doesn't

remember

> if
> he ever said where he obtained the swords.
>
> Scott
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "M. R. Williams"
> To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 9:20 AM
> Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword
>
>
> > Mr. Moore,
> >
> > The most common way to explain the acquisition of a Nihonto at

the

> end
> of
> > WWII is to say that is was grabbed out of a pile of weapons.

When the

> > Japanese surrendered they stockpiled the weapons (firearms,

blades,

> etc)
> > usually at harbors, airfields, or some other major location so

that

> the
> > American forces could easily collect them. In most cases the

officers

> in
> > charge of the local military units would allow the soldiers to

pick

> through
> > the piles and take what they wanted. That is how my grandfather

got

> his
> > rifle and sword.
> > Very rarely did a soldier kill an officer on the battlefield and
> take
> his
> > sword then. For two reasons. One, killing an officer would

require

> getting
> > close enough to have killed all the other soldiers around him.

Two,

> they
> > were in the middle of a war, they would not have had time to bend

down

> and
> > pick up a sword while avoiding flying bullets.
> > I hope that this helps you determine how the weapons were

acquired.

> The
> > more posts I read about it the more I believe that you have a very
> nice
> > find.
> >
> >
> > Peace,
> >
> > Matt Williams
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
> > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
> >
> >
> >
> > Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> > ---
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
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Scott-
The new pics unfortunately don't help, though it is clear you
have a healthy boshi not much else is apparent. Don't feel bad lots
of people have trouble capturing the details in photos. I can tell
you the name in side the combat cover is Morimoto. Not enough info to
do much with but I suspect it is the owners name. Look for Fuller and
Gregorys' book on swprds of Imperial Japan for more on your koshirae.
For more on the sword and the smith I suggest attending a
sword club meeting iof there is one in your area. If not you could
mail a rubbing of the nakago to a knowledgeable person, though with
the info you have you could do a lot on your own. I would look for
info on Muramasa and Masashige and if you can find them pictures and
oshigata of their work. Let me know if I can help.
-t

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tom,

You have already been a tremendous help. There is a club listed in my
area, Houston, Texas, and several weeks ago I sent an e-mail to the contact
listed on the Japanese Sword Index web site, but it was returned as
undeliverable. Now, I am e-mailing again in case the e-mail address has been
updated. (I can't remember if it is the same address.)

Also, there is a Japanese Sword & Art Show in San Antonio on Memorial Day
weekend. The show's organizer seemed helpful when I talked to him on the
phone and I am trying to work it out to attend it at least one day. So,
maybe, one way or the other I will get some "hands on" look at the sword and
can quit bugging you and the other gracious members of this group. If I get
to the show, I will be able to see a variety of swords and other art items.

Scott

----- Original Message -----
From: "tom helm" <junkmail@...>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 10:10 PM
Subject: Re: R: R: R: R: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword


> Scott-
> The new pics unfortunately don't help, though it is clear you
> have a healthy boshi not much else is apparent. Don't feel bad lots
> of people have trouble capturing the details in photos. I can tell
> you the name in side the combat cover is Morimoto. Not enough info to
> do much with but I suspect it is the owners name. Look for Fuller and
> Gregorys' book on swprds of Imperial Japan for more on your koshirae.
> For more on the sword and the smith I suggest attending a
> sword club meeting iof there is one in your area. If not you could
> mail a rubbing of the nakago to a knowledgeable person, though with
> the info you have you could do a lot on your own. I would look for
> info on Muramasa and Masashige and if you can find them pictures and
> oshigata of their work. Let me know if I can help.
> -t
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
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Mr. Moore,

For the sake of keeping the blade in good condition until you get it
professionally cleaned and polished I suggest that you completely take all
of the furniture off of it. You can put them all in a box or something if
you wish. Furniture is not often all that valuable, except in rare cases.
If and when you do get a small cleaning kit be VERY sure not to get any oil
on the tang. The small kits are about $30 at any martial arts supply site.
If you do manage to get one and need help with the cleaning procedure please
feel free to ask me, I will be more than happy to help.


Peace,

Matt

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Scott!
Lucky you! I am sure you'll me some great people down in
Houston, and get a real eye opener. I remember my first show, be
careful you don't fall in love and get lost in the sword world like I
did. Feel free to mention my name to any of the Califonians, be sure
to give yourself enough time to see everything and talk to everybody.
You'll have a terrific time.
Tom

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm in Houston as well, whereabouts is the show in SA?


Honda

>From: "Scott Moore" <sgmoore@...>

>
>Tom,
>
>
> Also, there is a Japanese Sword & Art Show in San Antonio on Memorial
>Day
>weekend. The show's organizer seemed helpful when I talked to him on the
>phone and I am trying to work it out to attend it at least one day. So,
>maybe, one way or the other I will get some "hands on" look at the sword
>and
>can quit bugging you and the other gracious members of this group. If I get
>to the show, I will be able to see a variety of swords and other art items.

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Honda,

The show in San Antonio is at the Menger Hotel downtown. The organizer of
the show faxed me a flier with all the information. If you have a fax
number, e-mail me direct and I will be glad to fax it to you or e-mail
specific information. E-mail to sgmoore@...

Scott

----- Original Message -----
From: "Honda Kowabunga" <hkowabunga@...>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 11:47 AM
Subject: Re: R: R: R: R: [samuraihistory] History of a Sword


> I'm in Houston as well, whereabouts is the show in SA?
>
>
> Honda
>
> >From: "Scott Moore" <sgmoore@...>
>
> >
> >Tom,
> >
> >
> > Also, there is a Japanese Sword & Art Show in San Antonio on Memorial
> >Day
> >weekend. The show's organizer seemed helpful when I talked to him on the
> >phone and I am trying to work it out to attend it at least one day. So,
> >maybe, one way or the other I will get some "hands on" look at the sword
> >and
> >can quit bugging you and the other gracious members of this group. If I
get
> >to the show, I will be able to see a variety of swords and other art
items.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
>
>
>
>
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> ---
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>