samurai battles

Hello to anyone that might be able to help me!?
My son is set a question every week and this weeks is.."When was the
last samurai against samurai battle and what was it called?
Much appreciated with any help I can get.
Cathy.

This can be a tricky question. My initial thought was that it must be in
1868, during the Mejii restoration.

But upon further reflection, it might have been during the 1877 Satsuma
Rebellion. That was the last samurai rebellion. Basically, you had samurai
on one side and Imperial troops on the other. However, the Tokyo policemen
were brought in to fight with the Imperials and they were all samurai (or
former samurai).

So it gets tricky depending on your definition of samurai.

Perhaps someone else can shed more light on the subject for you.

Bob Burke


In a message dated 4/13/03 11:05:10 AM, cathy@... writes:

<< Hello to anyone that might be able to help me!?

My son is set a question every week and this weeks is.."When was the

last samurai against samurai battle and what was it called?

Much appreciated with any help I can get.

Cathy. >>

c_t_56ie wrote:

>Hello to anyone that might be able to help me!?
>My son is set a question every week and this weeks is.."When was the
>last samurai against samurai battle and what was it called?
>Much appreciated with any help I can get.
>
>

The "last" one depends on how you work the numbers.

The samurai battle is usually considered to have been Shimabara in 1638.
Over 30,000 rônin and Christian samurai and peasants locked themselves
in Shimabara Castle, revolting against the brutality of the local lord.
The shogunate sent over 100,000 samurai in two waves to deal with them,
and it took months to break down the defenses. In the end, 37,000
defenders were killed.

Some people don't count Shimabara, as it involved peasants fighting as
well, and the structure of the defenders was a bit nebulous.

If one doesn't count Shimabara, the last samurai warfare is usually
considered the Osaka Winter and Summer campaigns of 1614-1615, when the
forces of Tokugawa Ieyasu (now the retired shôgun), laid two sieges to
Ôsaka Castle to bring down the remnants of the Toyotomi family.

The really last battles, though, were in the brief Bôshin War of 1868,
which was the war of Imperial Restoration. It wasn't much of a war, but
it was fought between samurai houses supporting either the shogunate or
the Imperial government.

Tony

>
>

Tony et al-
I would have to go with Osaka because by the time of the
restoration, they were using western weapons and tactics(though not
exclusively). If peasants are a detractor then look no further than
Takasugi Shinsaku and his rifle companies drawn mostly from farmers.
The much vaunted Shisengumi (many of whom were farmers themselves)
initially refused to adopt western arms and were cut to pieces at
Toba Fushimi, by the time they came around it was too late.
Stuck in the 60's (1860's)
Tom

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

tom helm wrote:

>Tony et al-
> I would have to go with Osaka because by the time of the
>restoration, they were using western weapons and tactics(though not
>exclusively). If peasants are a detractor then look no further than
>Takasugi Shinsaku and his rifle companies drawn mostly from farmers.
>The much vaunted Shisengumi (many of whom were farmers themselves)
>initially refused to adopt western arms and were cut to pieces at
>Toba Fushimi, by the time they came around it was too late.
>
>

Well, to be fair, if it weren't for cannon Ôsaka wouldn't have fallen so
quickly. They made short work of the defenses.

Tony
---------
show France how you feel: just say "non"
http://www.cafeshops.com/justsaynon

>
>

>

I would suggest either the Aizu confrontation at Wakamatsu or the Satsuma rebellion of 1877. The Satsuma army were samurai, and Saigo Takamori is often called the last samurai. Both of these battles have a heroic, noble failure, last stand, feel about them.

By the way, Takasugi Shinsaku was quite a high ranking Choushuu samurai and seems to have been very conscious of his own rank. It doesn't seem accurate to see him as a democratic figure. Like most of the Choushuu Meiji heroes, many of whom rose from being commanders of the shotai (samurai-farmer militia) he was a brilliant opportunist. Ito and Inoue were quite low-rank: Inoue's upbringing as described in Choushuu no Tenka was that of a farming-samurai family. Many samurai did not want to join the militia as the new methods of rifle drill and so on were considered too boring. Farmers on the other hand found this less boring than the hardship of their lives and possibly also saw it as a way to enter the samurai class.

I'd be interested to know if any of the Meiji leaders were interested in western-style democratic ideas.

> > >
>I would suggest either the Aizu confrontation at Wakamatsu or the
>Satsuma rebellion of 1877. The Satsuma army were samurai, and Saigo
>Takamori is often called the last samurai. Both of these battles
>have a heroic, noble failure, last stand, feel about them.

Great fights and great stories both, certainly bushi versus bushi but
how "Western" was the fighting? Tabaruzaka was lost once the rain
stopped and cannon fire was effectively directed upon the defenders.
I don't mean to be obtuse, simply my own teacher always argued the
true bushi died at Sekigahara.

>
>By the way, Takasugi Shinsaku was quite a high ranking Choushuu
>samurai and seems to have been very conscious of his own rank. It
>doesn't seem accurate to see him as a democratic figure. Like most
>of the Choushuu Meiji heroes, many of whom rose from being
>commanders of the shotai (samurai-farmer militia) he was a brilliant
>opportunist.

I agree completely, I never said he was a democratic figure, only
that it was his use of men of all social status, employing western
arms and guerilla tactics, that may disqualify the restoration
battles as "The last Samurai battle".

> Ito and Inoue were quite low-rank: Inoue's upbringing as described
>in Choushuu no Tenka was that of a farming-samurai family. Many
>samurai did not want to join the militia as the new methods of rifle
>drill and so on were considered too boring. Farmers on the other
>hand found this less boring than the hardship of their lives and
>possibly also saw it as a way to enter the samurai class.
>
>I'd be interested to know if any of the Meiji leaders were
>interested in western-style democratic ideas.

I read that Ryoma, in addition to that book on International
laws of the sea, had read Jean Jacque Rousseaus' The Social Contract.
A book frankly that I would never have read myself had I not believed
this.
As an aside, I believe democratic institutions have yet to
take hold in Japan, that what we think is democracy is only
"Tatemae"...
-t

>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
>
>
>
>
> I don't mean to be obtuse, simply my own teacher always argued the

> true bushi died at Sekigahara.
>
> I never said he was a democratic figure, only

> that it was his use of men of all social status, employing western

> arms and guerilla tactics, that may disqualify the restoration

> battles as "The last Samurai battlee

No, I didn't think you did, I was just following the idea that the Restoration battles, despite mixed forces and modern weapons, were essentially samurai on samurai and therefore could be called the "last samurai battle."

Despite all that, your teacher is probably right and we should go back to Sekigahara!(if whoever asked the question is still reading)

>
>I read that Ryoma, in addition to that book on International

> laws of the sea, had read Jean Jacque Rousseaus' The Social Contract.

> A book frankly that I would never have read myself had I not believed

> this.

That is very interesting: where did you read that and did he read Rousseau in French? If Ryoma had lived would the history of Japan have been different? (I suppose someone else would have assassinated him sooner or later.)

>
> that what we think is democracy is only

> "Tatemae

And that's another tragic story.

>
>
>That is very interesting: where did you read that and did he read
>Rousseau in French? If Ryoma had lived would the history of Japan
>have been different? (I suppose someone else would have assassinated
>him sooner or later.)

I was afraid you would ask this. I am convinced I read or was
told that Rousseau was an influence on Ryoma. However in checking my
references I can only find that Nakae Chomin was a student of French
in Nagasaki at the same time Ryoma was there. At the time Nakae was
studying under Tosa sponsorship. He is famous for his liberal
politics in the Meiji period and his translations of French Code of
Law and "The Social Contract". Clearly the democratic ideal inspired
him, but how early? Thus there was likely no Japanese translation
available to Ryoma and he certainly didn't read it in the original
language. I will keep looking but may have shot down my own theory...
I believe he would have been a positive influence on the new
age. I imagine him growing fat and corrupt at the head of a
Mitsubishi type shipping concern and his own political party or
perhaps leading elements of the new navy against the forces of Okubo
in concert with Saigo and the forces of Satsuma or maybe staking a
claim as a world famous rogue after circumnavigating the globe with
frequent stops in the capitols and parlors of the worlds great
Nations.
tom

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes I am still reading though it is all totally above my head!!
My son started Jujitsu last year and most weeks gets set a question.Me,being quite lazy,and having gone around in circles trying to get information from various sources,chanced upon this group and you have all been a good help.
Guess what battle my son's Sensai thought was the correct one?.....It was the Shimabara....well obviously I have learnt that there are varying opinions but informative all the same.
Can't use you this week as he has set a question about Easter instead!
Thanks again,
Cathy.

----- Original Message -----
From: Gillian Rubinstein
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 12:10 AM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] samurai battles


>
>
>
>
>
> I don't mean to be obtuse, simply my own teacher always argued the

> true bushi died at Sekigahara.
>
> I never said he was a democratic figure, only

> that it was his use of men of all social status, employing western

> arms and guerilla tactics, that may disqualify the restoration

> battles as "The last Samurai battlee

No, I didn't think you did, I was just following the idea that the Restoration battles, despite mixed forces and modern weapons, were essentially samurai on samurai and therefore could be called the "last samurai battle."

Despite all that, your teacher is probably right and we should go back to Sekigahara!(if whoever asked the question is still reading)
>
>I read that Ryoma, in addition to that book on International

> laws of the sea, had read Jean Jacque Rousseaus' The Social Contract.

> A book frankly that I would never have read myself had I not believed

> this.


That is very interesting: where did you read that and did he read Rousseau in French? If Ryoma had lived would the history of Japan have been different? (I suppose someone else would have assassinated him sooner or later.)
>
> that what we think is democracy is only

> "Tatemae

And that's another tragic story.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hey Tom,
Just a question: the Saigo you refer to from Satsuma -- would that be
Suzuki Saitomo, aka Saiga (or Saigo) Magoichi? As I said, just wondering.
Thanx 8-)

Later
Tim


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sorry don't recognize those names,
I am speaking of Saigo Takamori who led the Imperial troops
to victory over the forces of the shogun in the restoration wars and
who became the leader of the Satsuma rebels in the failed uprising of
1877.
Tom

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