Japanese Samurai History - Guns and honor

#1591 [2003-03-21 05:57:55]

Guns and honor

by samuariempath

As many of us are aware, with the arrival of the portuguese and guns
in 1542 and the subsequent use of firearms in battle and the
christianization of some of the Pre-Tokugawa warlords.

One has to wonder if the use of guns,while a great advange in
battle, was considered a dishonorable on the battlefield both, to the
one employing the weapon and the one being shot at?

-Atsi

[Next #1594]

#1594 [2003-03-21 11:47:17]

Re: [samuraihistory] Guns and honor

by deondejonghsa

So Desu Ka....good point Kazuari San
The movie called "Heaven & Earth" gives an clear indication of the musket rifle and how it was a matter of skill to use it, not honor. In modern society, hunters use scopes and guns of different make to kill the prey, then there are some who use a bow and arrow..a sign of true skill to go about hunting on equal grounds with the animal. The secret in both these methods are "The advantage of Distance". The archer would surely perish if he sould wait for a galloping animal to be within range of execution. A rifle-man have no such concern. Is there honor in ending the life of the animal in such way? No...but skill in compensation for wind direction, form and calmness to squeeze the trigger without having fear of missing...would be.
The outcome of any war, ancient or modern, depends upon the weapons at hand to defeat the enemy with effective means. Large scale ware-fare call for large scale advancement in artillary. Honor in such matters ly in victory or defeat. After the war, a peaceful era existed in Japan and warriors now had to re=evaluate their purpose and manner of combat...that's when the code of Bushido was cultivated and Samurai became know for their skilled swordsmanship. Most Warriors of the war taught martial arts and the skill of the battlefield relevant to the Japanese Code,Archery, Kobudo Weaponry and the Swords...the soul and essence of the samurai
Honor had almost no place during large scale wars...only when the combat form became 1 on 1 with a blade during the Edo Period and that of the days of Miyamoto Musashi. Try not to place the Bushido Code of Samurai Honor on Pre-Modern Japan...remember..those were Feudal times..unlike what followed.
In todays Martial arts...the code teach one to go about any means to defeat the attacker...for the attacker use any means to defeat you. There is no Honor in the actions of an attacker...then he should be dealt with accordingly...But with a reserve sense of Respect and Harmony in Conduct to the Code. The Code by which one fight...determine the Honorable means by which one exist.
Regards
Atisi Kazuari <broccolihead30@...> wrote:As many of us are aware, with the arrival of the portuguese and guns
in 1542 and the subsequent use of firearms in battle and the
christianization of some of the Pre-Tokugawa warlords.

One has to wonder if the use of guns,while a great advange in
battle, was considered a dishonorable on the battlefield both, to the
one employing the weapon and the one being shot at?

-Atsi

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#1669 [2003-04-20 07:32:05]

Re: [samuraihistory] Guns and honor

by Barry Thomas

On Saturday, March 22, 2003 4:47 AM, Deon de Jongh <deondejonghsa@...>
wrote:

> The movie called "Heaven & Earth" gives an clear
> indication of the musket rifle and how it was a
> matter of skill to use it, not honor.

I have seen no further exchanges on this topic of "Guns and honor" (and sorry to
be late in the fray!) but I feel compelled to respond to the confusing phrase
"musket rifle".

The matchlock gun was indeed a musket, which is a smooth bore firearm that
shoots balls of lead. It most definitely is NOT a rifle, which has a gentle
spiral of grooves in the bore of the barrel to add spin to a streamlined,
cylindrical bullet rather than a ball. This spin stabilises the bullet in
flight and greatly improves accuracy to longer ranges. A smooth bore musket is
not a very accurate weapon and was used in volleys rather than individual aimed
fire - hence the famed British Red Square with their Brown Bess muskets before
the introduction of the Baker Rifle...

I'm also sorry if this seems pedantic to some, but accuracy in technical terms
is always important as an aid to understanding the weapon, the times and the men
who used them.

Barry Thomas
(Melbourne, Australia)

[Previous #1594] [Next #1674]

#1674 [2003-04-21 07:53:40]

Re: [samuraihistory] Guns and honor

by deondejonghsa

Hi Bary I thank you much for that valued input regarding my statement, I meary answered in regards to guns and honor on the Way. I am not technical regarding such matters but your point is well noted and come of great use to myself. Thanxps. I would like to hear your input regardingly the pertaining topic.

Barry Thomas <warlord@...> wrote:On Saturday, March 22, 2003 4:47 AM, Deon de Jongh <deondejonghsa@...>
wrote:

> The movie called "Heaven & Earth" gives an clear
> indication of the musket rifle and how it was a
> matter of skill to use it, not honor.

[Previous #1669] [Next #1676]

#1676 [2003-04-23 12:46:37]

Re: [samuraihistory] Guns and honor

by shinobij

Thanks for that, that helped me (not trying being circastic).

Jonny Lee
(Scotland)

Barry Thomas <warlord@...> wrote:On Saturday, March 22, 2003 4:47 AM, Deon de Jongh <deondejonghsa@...>
wrote:

> The movie called "Heaven & Earth" gives an clear
> indication of the musket rifle and how it was a
> matter of skill to use it, not honor.

[Previous #1674]