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To put this in perspective

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#1504 [2003-02-21 11:36:19]

To put this in perspective

by iganokami

This 'I wanna be a Sammy-rai' conversation is analgous to
a bunch of Japanese people sitting in Japan right now
saying

"I wanna be a confederate! I wanna follow the ideals of
the South, respect for authority, gentlemanly honor, and
ladies first! I want to train in the ways of the
Confederates, I want to learn the way of the Confederate
soldier. Confederates were awesome! They all followed
the way of the Confederates, and I want to live up to that
ideal. I want to go to America so I can become a true
confederate, and learn the way of the confederacy!"

If that makes no sense, then you get my point. If not,
you're a nut.
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#1506 [2003-02-21 12:55:55]

Re: [samuraihistory] To put this in perspective

by DAngelo72

What I think is nuts is the total lack of respect this group has shown each other! 1 person makes a comment, and now, in my honest opinion, the "know-it-all's" are pissed off because someone voiced their opinion on "lifestyle"? If we can't respect each others opinions, why have a group at all? EVERYONE is wrong for this, not just one person...and if I've offended anyone, please tell me!
Let's get back on track, folks. This is about samurai "history", which I've greatly been schooled on and it's been much appreciated. I'd hate to quit this group over "punk shit", and I think others would, too. I've learned alot and I'd like to continue that...
Phil

eatswithscissorsrunswithmonkeys <intp@...> wrote:This 'I wanna be a Sammy-rai' conversation is analgous to
a bunch of Japanese people sitting in Japan right now
saying

"I wanna be a confederate! I wanna follow the ideals of
the South, respect for authority, gentlemanly honor, and
ladies first! I want to train in the ways of the
Confederates, I want to learn the way of the Confederate
soldier. Confederates were awesome! They all followed
the way of the Confederates, and I want to live up to that
ideal. I want to go to America so I can become a true
confederate, and learn the way of the confederacy!"

If that makes no sense, then you get my point. If not,
you're a nut.
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#1507 [2003-02-21 14:20:52]

Re: To put this in perspective

by iganokami

I think it was just the somewhat naive lunacy of saying "I
want to be a samurai" that set some people off. I don't
think anyone is "pissed off". Some people just feel the
need to correct perceived misinformation - some through
educating, some more directly through less diplomatic
means. I tend to rely on the first method, but do enjoy
the second method as well. And I think I have at least a
semi-valid point in my comparing a westerner saying "I
want to be a Samurai" to a Japanese person saying "I want
to be a Confederate".... I also do think that the
'lifestyle' is great, but it isn't a "Samurai" lifestyle.
If anything it is a Zen or Buddhist lifestyle; calling it
a "Samurai lifestyle" is a fallacy and a bit farcical.
Some people don't realize how odd they sound until they
are shown things from another perspective, so I like to
think I was facilitating that while only being marginally
insulting ;-)
Groups are for learning and debate - if one takes offense
to everything said to them, they won't learn anything -
they will spend too much time getting hurt or angry. If
you are going to post your convictions to a group - any
group - you should be able to take the replies with a
grain of salt. (sometimes a real big grain). I welcome
flame posts, it at least shows me where everyone else
stands.
_____________________________
For the best comics, toys, movies, and more,
please visit <http://www.tfaw.com/?qt=wmf>

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#1508 [2003-02-21 17:16:37]

Re: [samuraihistory] To put this in perspective

by soshuju

>
>
>"I wanna be a confederate! I wanna follow the ideals of
>the South, respect for authority, gentlemanly honor, and
>ladies first! I want to train in the ways of the
>Confederates,

These people exist, you can find larges groups of them camping and
riding horseback in Kyushu!

for Tim
Samurai exist! they chose the gun and the gunboat, western
clothes and science when given the chance. My teacher in Japan was a
24th generation polisher. He wakes early every morning and burns
incense and says prayers for those who died on that date, he polishes
the swords of the verry best families for an hour or so before
breakfast. He often gave me rides in his car and we keep in touch by
email.
Ganbatte!

Tom

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#1511 [2003-02-22 09:04:35]

Re: To put this in perspective

by zack24k

Hi, let me ask one question:

What's the meaning of the term "Samurai"?

I simply can't understand why some people mix up Zen, Buddhism and Samurai
(for me, these 3 are something different).
If the term definition is different, the difference could be an answer...

> I think it was just the somewhat naive lunacy of saying "I
> want to be a samurai" that set some people off. I don't
> think anyone is "pissed off". Some people just feel the
> need to correct perceived misinformation - some through
> educating, some more directly through less diplomatic
> means. I tend to rely on the first method, but do enjoy
> the second method as well. And I think I have at least a
> semi-valid point in my comparing a westerner saying "I
> want to be a Samurai" to a Japanese person saying "I want
> to be a Confederate".... I also do think that the
> 'lifestyle' is great, but it isn't a "Samurai" lifestyle.
> If anything it is a Zen or Buddhist lifestyle; calling it
> a "Samurai lifestyle" is a fallacy and a bit farcical.
> Some people don't realize how odd they sound until they
> are shown things from another perspective, so I like to
> think I was facilitating that while only being marginally
> insulting ;-)

M.Nakazaki

[Previous #1508] [Next #1512]

#1512 [2003-02-21 20:48:46]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: To put this in perspective

by DAngelo72

Understandable...

eatswithscissorsrunswithmonkeys <intp@...> wrote:I think it was just the somewhat naive lunacy of saying "I
want to be a samurai" that set some people off. I don't
think anyone is "pissed off". Some people just feel the
need to correct perceived misinformation - some through
educating, some more directly through less diplomatic
means. I tend to rely on the first method, but do enjoy
the second method as well. And I think I have at least a
semi-valid point in my comparing a westerner saying "I
want to be a Samurai" to a Japanese person saying "I want
to be a Confederate".... I also do think that the
'lifestyle' is great, but it isn't a "Samurai" lifestyle.
If anything it is a Zen or Buddhist lifestyle; calling it
a "Samurai lifestyle" is a fallacy and a bit farcical.
Some people don't realize how odd they sound until they
are shown things from another perspective, so I like to
think I was facilitating that while only being marginally
insulting ;-)
Groups are for learning and debate - if one takes offense
to everything said to them, they won't learn anything -
they will spend too much time getting hurt or angry. If
you are going to post your convictions to a group - any
group - you should be able to take the replies with a
grain of salt. (sometimes a real big grain). I welcome
flame posts, it at least shows me where everyone else
stands.
_____________________________
For the best comics, toys, movies, and more,
please visit


Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
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To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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#1520 [2003-02-22 12:42:08]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: To put this in perspective

by jahladracul

--- "M.Nakazaki" <afn_mgr@...> wrote:
> Hi, let me ask one question:
>
> What's the meaning of the term "Samurai"?
>
> I simply can't understand why some people mix up
> Zen, Buddhism and Samurai
> (for me, these 3 are something different).
> If the term definition is different, the difference
> could be an answer...
>
> > I think it was just the somewhat naive lunacy of
> saying "I
> > want to be a samurai" that set some people off. I
> don't
> > think anyone is "pissed off". Some people just
> feel the
> > need to correct perceived misinformation - some
> through
> > educating, some more directly through less
> diplomatic
> > means. I tend to rely on the first method, but do
> enjoy
> > the second method as well. And I think I have at
> least a
> > semi-valid point in my comparing a westerner
> saying "I
> > want to be a Samurai" to a Japanese person saying
> "I want
> > to be a Confederate".... I also do think that the
>
> > 'lifestyle' is great, but it isn't a "Samurai"
> lifestyle.
> > If anything it is a Zen or Buddhist lifestyle;
> calling it
> > a "Samurai lifestyle" is a fallacy and a bit
> farcical.
> > Some people don't realize how odd they sound until
> they
> > are shown things from another perspective, so I
> like to
> > think I was facilitating that while only being
> marginally
> > insulting ;-)
>
> M.Nakazaki
>
ni hao.
this is tim heaton......again.
i once learned that being a samurai meant being the
way of the sword,in which had so much history and
respect as well as fear behind it.and a man to choose
this path was not quit yet discoved in completeness as
the chinese had lessoned,so many joined armies and
such to try and futhermore their accomplishments in
the way of the sword but because it was man ruling
more so than teaching the lesson reamained abscent and
man just became powerful with the sword and just a
fragile amount of the awarness in being with the sword
but still the samurai became and few to be the way.the
respect of the blade is not just its temperment and
threat in being in the wrong hands.
i learned from hopes of those who influence the
samurai had in mind to study these things together
like alchemy to term the way of the sword(iron
dragon,tai chi,kung fu,the buddahs palm,and
zen)stillness of the blade with man having the mind to
observe how dangerous he is even to himself to take up
the sword. in being is a method not quite tought to
keep the secret of masturing the sword but still many
have almost mastered it through years of practice,but
the feeling of the sword in mind of too many men
became dangerous.in conclusion to ones eye your no
one,to your own you may be all or nothing as well,and
to many you may be awsome ,to god you too cruel or a
real man,and again who and what was a samurai.and from
what i have studied i am going to do my best at
becoming a true samurai someday and leave this modern
world behind for its own self ruining. sincerly tim heaton.

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#1521 [2003-02-23 06:58:51]

Re: Re: To put this in perspective

by lost90804

>
>
> From: M.Nakazaki <afn_mgr@...>
>
>Hi, let me ask one question:
>
>What's the meaning of the term "Samurai"?
>
>
Servant/retainer, but it carries other connotations that the English
word doesn't.

>I simply can't understand why some people mix up Zen, Buddhism and Samurai
>(for me, these 3 are something different).
>If the term definition is different, the difference could be an answer...
>
>
What background shaped Japanese culture? Of course one must study Shinto
and Confucius as well.

> From: "Interi98 <interi98@...>" <interi98@...>
>
>
>I would really like to read your impressions on this.
>
>
As you pointed out, Bushido is a modern concept. Before the Edo period,
there really wasn't such a concept. One of the reasons it came about is
to convince the underlings not to revolt against their superiors. The
Sengoku period could easily be termed "the age of treachery" with out
too much inaccuracy.

> From: "Interi98 <interi98@...>" <interi98@...>
>
>
>There is a book comparing bushido with chivalry:
>"A Comparison of Bushi-Do and Chivalry"
>by Takeshi Takagi
>translated by Tsuneyoshi Matsuno
>This book was written in 1914, but the translation was published 1984
>in Osaka: TM International Academy.
>
>
I'll have to look for that! Sounds interesting. Though sadly none of the
local libraries seem to have it in their normal collections.

> From: "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...>
>Subject: Re: Re: Knights vs. Samurai ideals
>
>James Eckman wrote:
>
>
>Have you gotten to the ones where they would wrapt them up in straw bales yet?
>
>
No, mostly they are just pouring boiling water and staking them out at
low tide. It's supposed to get a bit nastier later on. I'm pretty sure
Endo-sensei didn't write a single happy book. Of course I'm American, so
I like heros and happy endings. Something hard to find in most other
cultures writings. For those on the list interested in historical
fiction, he also wrote a book called Samurai which is a story about some
low level flunkies sent to Mexico and then Rome to negotiate treaties
for their lord. I think this one and Chinmoku have English editions. He
was at one time considered for the Nobel Prize.

> From: jonathan lee <shinobij@...>
>I'm new to this group and fairly ignorant when it comes to the subject of samurai, but what i kow i find facinating and i'm dying (not literally) to know more. Therefore i would appreciate it if ayone could recommend any websites books etc.
>
>
For websites, use Google. Type in samurai, sengoku, daimyo, etc. and be
prepared to burn lots of time. You could also buy some of Stephen
Turnbull's or Tony Bryant's books on the subject ;)

Jim Eckman

[Previous #1520] [Next #1524]

#1524 [2003-02-24 02:36:48]

Re: Re: Re: To put this in perspective

by zack24k

Hi,

> >What's the meaning of the term "Samurai"?
> Servant/retainer, but it carries other connotations that the English
> word doesn't.

Simple and beautiful!

That's almost same as my definition.
However, sometimes it's defined as lifestyle......I'm just woundering why.

> >I simply can't understand why some people mix up Zen, Buddhism and Samurai
> >(for me, these 3 are something different).
> >If the term definition is different, the difference could be an answer...
> What background shaped Japanese culture? Of course one must study Shinto
> and Confucius as well.

To be honest, I doubt Confucius had that much effect on our culture(Samurai in Edo shogunate could be an exception, or could not be).

# One more to mention is, the images of "Samurai" for westerners and that for Japanese is quite different, I think. That's really interesting, humm......

Shinto might be a background, but how could it be distinguished from Animizm ?
Or should them be treated as same?

# National-Shinto by Imperial Japan was something different, I think.

M.Nakazaki

[Previous #1521] [Next #1530]

#1530 [2003-02-24 17:31:26]

Re: Re: Re: Re: To put this in perspective

by lost90804

>
>
> From: M.Nakazaki <afn_mgr@...>
>
>
>>Servant/retainer, but it carries other connotations that the English
>>word doesn't.
>>
>>
>
>Simple and beautiful!
>
>That's almost same as my definition.
>However, sometimes it's defined as lifestyle......I'm just woundering why.
>
So am I, a samurai could be anything from a bookkeeper to an incredibly
violent warrior type. How do you get one lifestyle from this variety?

>To be honest, I doubt Confucius had that much effect on our culture(Samurai in Edo shogunate could be an exception, or could not be).
>
It's more of a later period thing for sure, I forgot the Japanese for
his name, hmmm,... seems to be several! Jiha, Koushi, Sensei (not the
usual kanji).

>Shinto might be a background, but how could it be distinguished from Animizm ?
>Or should them be treated as same?
>
>
Rites and customs differ tremendously among the few remaining groups
that are animists, that's probably how I'd classify them.

># National-Shinto by Imperial Japan was something different, I think.
>
>
Yes very. It seemed to be a method that the militarists used to justify
rampant fascism.

Jim Eckman

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