Japanese Samurai History - Forms of address

#1463 [2003-02-12 02:42:43]

Forms of address

by thomas5403

I'm seeking clarification on forms of address within samurai
circles in the late Sengoku era.

Was "san" used in this period?

What is the proper usage of the term "sama"? I know it's used
following a name, but then so is "dono" and "tono" (or are they
two spellings of the same word).

Recently I've been informed of "oyakata-sama".

I'm working on a fiction piece, and trying to get the forms of
address right, so a broadside of questions if anyone's got the
time or inclination to answer:

Form of address between samurai of equal status but different
han.

Form used by samurai of equal status with in same han.

Form used by commoners addressing samurai.

Form used by samurai referring to his lord (to his lord).

Form used by samurai referring to his lord (to another samurai
- either within or outside the han).

Form used by samurai referring to another's lord.

I think you get the idea.

Any help appreciated,

Thomas

[Next #1465]

#1465 [2003-02-12 09:46:08]

Re: Forms of address

by iganokami

Here's my guess based on years of watching NHK taiga dramas (and
since a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, hopefully there will
be others here to confirm or deny my thoughts).

I don't recall hearing ~San, but I do remember hearing ~Han used on
Samurai in Sengoku period Kyoto/Kansai, so ~San might have been in
use in other places...(?)

Tono or Oyakatasama seems to be used to address a lord directly (from
samurai to lord), and I think Tono-sama is used to refer to the lord
when talking to someone else (I don't know the difference in usage
between Oyakatasama and Tono when speaking to a lord, but I think
Oyakatasama is even more polite (or puts the lord higher up)
than 'Tono'....

I think that when 'equal' samurai speak with each other, they seem to
stick ~Dono on the end (Hayashi-dono) etc. And I think -Sama is used
this way as well.
All this goes for higher up samurai, as most Taiga drama and others
mainly deal with that level. I have no idea how ashigaru address each
other.

hopefully others here can clarify - now I'm curious. But another
option in fiction would be to scrap the Japanese titles altogether
and use the english equivalents (Lord Hayashi) (Yes, my lord) stuff
like that...

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Davidson
" wrote:

> I'm seeking clarification on forms of address within samurai
> circles in the late Sengoku era.
>
> Was "san" used in this period?
>
> What is the proper usage of the term "sama"? I know it's used
> following a name, but then so is "dono" and "tono" (or are they
> two spellings of the same word).
>
> Recently I've been informed of "oyakata-sama".
>
> I'm working on a fiction piece, and trying to get the forms of
> address right, so a broadside of questions if anyone's got the
> time or inclination to answer:
>
> Form of address between samurai of equal status but different
> han.
>
> Form used by samurai of equal status with in same han.
>
> Form used by commoners addressing samurai.
>
> Form used by samurai referring to his lord (to his lord).
>
> Form used by samurai referring to his lord (to another samurai
> - either within or outside the han).
>
> Form used by samurai referring to another's lord.
>
> I think you get the idea.
>
> Any help appreciated,
>
> Thomas

[Previous #1463] [Next #1467]

#1467 [2003-02-12 19:46:30]

Re: Forms of address

by kitsuno

Those are pretty much my guesses as well. I'd just add that "Oyakata-
sama" seems to be used by lower ranking samurai towards thier lord
where "Tono" seems to be used by the higher ranking samurai towards
the lord. but I'm also basing my guesses on the various japanese
samurai drama I've seen.

I KNOW there are others here who should be able to hazzard a guess as
well....! (Including at least a small handful of people who have
actually read sengoku-era documents)

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "iganokami "
wrote:

> Here's my guess based on years of watching NHK taiga dramas (and
> since a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, hopefully there will
> be others here to confirm or deny my thoughts).
>
> I don't recall hearing ~San, but I do remember hearing ~Han used on
> Samurai in Sengoku period Kyoto/Kansai, so ~San might have been in
> use in other places...(?)
>
> Tono or Oyakatasama seems to be used to address a lord directly

(from

> samurai to lord), and I think Tono-sama is used to refer to the

lord

> when talking to someone else (I don't know the difference in usage
> between Oyakatasama and Tono when speaking to a lord, but I think
> Oyakatasama is even more polite (or puts the lord higher up)
> than 'Tono'....
>
> I think that when 'equal' samurai speak with each other, they seem

> stick ~Dono on the end (Hayashi-dono) etc. And I think -Sama is

used

> this way as well.
> All this goes for higher up samurai, as most Taiga drama and others
> mainly deal with that level. I have no idea how ashigaru address

each

> other.
>
> hopefully others here can clarify - now I'm curious. But another
> option in fiction would be to scrap the Japanese titles altogether
> and use the english equivalents (Lord Hayashi) (Yes, my lord) stuff
> like that...
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Davidson
> " wrote:
> > I'm seeking clarification on forms of address within samurai
> > circles in the late Sengoku era.
> >
> > Was "san" used in this period?
> >
> > What is the proper usage of the term "sama"? I know it's used
> > following a name, but then so is "dono" and "tono" (or are they
> > two spellings of the same word).
> >
> > Recently I've been informed of "oyakata-sama".
> >
> > I'm working on a fiction piece, and trying to get the forms of
> > address right, so a broadside of questions if anyone's got the
> > time or inclination to answer:
> >
> > Form of address between samurai of equal status but different
> > han.
> >
> > Form used by samurai of equal status with in same han.
> >
> > Form used by commoners addressing samurai.
> >
> > Form used by samurai referring to his lord (to his lord).
> >
> > Form used by samurai referring to his lord (to another samurai
> > - either within or outside the han).
> >
> > Form used by samurai referring to another's lord.
> >
> > I think you get the idea.
> >
> > Any help appreciated,
> >
> > Thomas

[Previous #1465] [Next #1468]

#1468 [2003-02-13 08:36:04]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Forms of address

by holydemon13

Hi there.
I know my info is based on a historically-questionable (the major human
characters actually lived, but the events in the game didn't happen) video
game set in Japan during the Sengoku Jidai, but it may prove helpful: In
Oni-musha I: Warlords (PlayStation 2), the character Kinoshita Tokichiro
(later Toyotomi Hideyoshi) addresses the hero, Samanosuke Akechi (real name:
Akechi Mitsuharu, titled Samanosuke) as "Samanosuke-dono". At the time, the
then-Tokichiro was a low servant of Nobunaga, and doubtful would have been a
full samurai (if such ranks existed), while Samanosuke was a ronin. Now, how
this helps, and how much, I don't know, but I thought I'd mention it anyway.
(-:

Later,
Tim

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #1467] [Next #1510]

#1510 [2003-02-21 23:57:16]

Re: Forms of address

by kitsuno

I think this probably the info you're looking for:
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/Miscellany/Address.html

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Davidson
" wrote:

> I'm seeking clarification on forms of address within samurai
> circles in the late Sengoku era.
>
> Was "san" used in this period?
>
> What is the proper usage of the term "sama"? I know it's used
> following a name, but then so is "dono" and "tono" (or are they
> two spellings of the same word).
>
> Recently I've been informed of "oyakata-sama".
>
> I'm working on a fiction piece, and trying to get the forms of
> address right, so a broadside of questions if anyone's got the
> time or inclination to answer:
>
> Form of address between samurai of equal status but different
> han.
>
> Form used by samurai of equal status with in same han.
>
> Form used by commoners addressing samurai.
>
> Form used by samurai referring to his lord (to his lord).
>
> Form used by samurai referring to his lord (to another samurai
> - either within or outside the han).
>
> Form used by samurai referring to another's lord.
>
> I think you get the idea.
>
> Any help appreciated,
>
> Thomas

[Previous #1468]