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Samurai and use of firearms

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#145 [2001-03-22 20:18:11]

Samurai and use of firearms

by blazeitup26@cs.com

Hello,
I need some clarification on the issue of samuri warriors and the
use of the musket.I ll just ask the question. Could a samurai warrior
use firearms on the field of battle in any time in their history,
without loss of honor? I know that armies of that used ashigaru en
masse with these weapons , the issue for me is if the warriors
themselves would use them under certain conditions at all.

[Next #148]

#148 [2001-03-24 04:39:50]

Re: [samuraihistory] Samurai and use of firearms

by Mark Hall

Part of this is dealt with in the book GIVING UP THE GUN (I forget the durn
author). He looks at the introduction of firearms and chronicles how they
were abandoned by the samurai class.

Best, Mark Hall

| Hello,
| I need some clarification on the issue of samuri warriors and the
| use of the musket.I ll just ask the question. Could a samurai warrior
| use firearms on the field of battle in any time in their history,
| without loss of honor? I know that armies of that used ashigaru en
| masse with these weapons , the issue for me is if the warriors
| themselves would use them under certain conditions at all.
|
|
|
|
| Samurai Archives: http://www.hn.org/samurai-archives/index.html
| ---
| To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
| samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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|
|
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|
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|

[Previous #145] [Next #150]

#150 [2001-03-24 22:13:58]

Re: [samuraihistory] Samurai and use of firearms

by Karen Thomas

Hello,

I don't know the answer to your question. However, how deeply are you (or
anyone else) interested in Japanese matchlock guns?? If you actually want
BOOKS I can list a very few English sources, if you want Japanese sources I
have an older English article that lists quite a few...

I think the author of "Giving up the gun" was Stephen Turnbull.

Regards,

Barry Thomas
(Melbourne, Australia)

----- Original Message -----
From: <blazeitup26@...>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 23, 2001 1:18 PM
Subject: [samuraihistory] Samurai and use of firearms


Hello,
I need some clarification on the issue of samuri warriors and the
use of the musket.I ll just ask the question. Could a samurai warrior
use firearms on the field of battle in any time in their history,
without loss of honor? I know that armies of that used ashigaru en
masse with these weapons , the issue for me is if the warriors
themselves would use them under certain conditions at all.

[Previous #148] [Next #151]

#151 [2001-03-25 12:29:15]

Re: Samurai and use of firearms

by Christopher West

> I think the author of "Giving up the gun" was Stephen Turnbull.

- "Giving Up the Gun : Japan's Reversion to the Sword, 1543-1879"
by Noel Perrin, Reissue edition (January 1995)

[Previous #150] [Next #152]

#152 [2001-03-26 07:35:23]

Re: [samuraihistory] Samurai and use of firearms

by Nate Ledbetter

> I think the author of "Giving up the gun" was
> Stephen Turnbull.
>

Noel Perrin wrote "Giving up the Gun", and you can
find it on Amazon.com. I'm not a fan of the book
myself, I disagree with a lot of his conclusions.

Could a samurai warrior
> use firearms on the field of battle in any time in
> their history,
> without loss of honor?

Well, guns were really only introduced in the
mid-1500's, 1542 for portuguese firearms and somewhat
earlier for chinese models. Rather than "losing
honor", they were quickly used to "win battles" by
most daimyo. Granted, the use was mainly relegated to
ashigaru troops, but many important daimyo also
practised with arquebuses, including Oda Nobunaga and
Tokugawa Ieyasu. Ieyasu was considered a better shot
than most of his retainers.

As Perrin's book will tell you, the gun was phased
out and the samurai sword mystique was
created...whether it was part of a Tokugawa bakufu
plot or not, I'll leave up to you. Keep in mind that
there was no open warfare for over 200 years, so what
was the use of guns? Samurai did not hesitate to use
them during the civil war.

Nate Ledbetter

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[Previous #151] [Next #153]

#153 [2001-03-26 02:13:25]

Re: Samurai and use of firearms

by tom.davidson@realtime.co.uk

> Could a samurai warrior use firearms on the field of battle in any time i=
n their history, without loss of honor?

If I might offer a personal opinion I think the short answer to this is 'ye=
s'. Tokugawa Ieyasu himself was
apparently a good shot (as much as it was possible to be) - but even if not=
, he took time to learn how to use
the weapon and if it was OK by him it would have been okay by everyone. Com=
bat samurai (pre 1600) were
far more pragmatic than the image we have today, and samurai honour, as a c=
ode that was lived rather than
paid lip-service, reached its lowest ebb just prior to the emergence of the=
Oda/Hideyoshi/Tokugawa
triumvirate. In those days anything went, as long as you won. The emergence=
of strong leaders and a unified
country probably did most to bring about a restructuring of the warrior eth=
ic. The later Edo Jidai under
Tokugawa rule completely remodelled the ideals of the samurai, and that is =
the image commonly held today.

There are pictures of samurai using firearms (although not many tales), but=
I think the honour ethic (which
existed as the exception, rather than the rule) was primarily based on the =
samurai's traditional weapons. The
problem with firearms is that the early models only really worked when used=
en masse which made up for their
inaccuracy, and a skilled individual warrior would have felt safer with a w=
eapon he could rely on, and you could
not really rely on an arquebus. Especially when battlefields often develope=
d into chaotic close combat melées.

If a samurai wanted to make a name for himself on the battlefield, the spea=
r was the thing.

Thomas

[Previous #152] [Next #154]

#154 [2001-03-28 13:22:30]

Re: [samuraihistory] Samurai and use of firearms

by Carlos Hamlett

No the samuria is not supposed to use any other
weapons but his sword. From what I recall from my
studies the samuria is only to use his sword or a mace
in time of battle and training.
--- blazeitup26@... wrote:
> Hello,
> I need some clarification on the issue of samuri
> warriors and the
> use of the musket.I ll just ask the question. Could
> a samurai warrior
> use firearms on the field of battle in any time in
> their history,
> without loss of honor? I know that armies of that
> used ashigaru en
> masse with these weapons , the issue for me is if
> the warriors
> themselves would use them under certain conditions
> at all.
>
>
>


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[Previous #153] [Next #155]

#155 [2001-03-28 21:36:47]

Re: [samuraihistory] Samurai and use of firearms

by Arashisan@aol.com

In a message dated Wed, 28 Mar 2001 9:28:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, Carlos Hamlett <mzre311@...> writes:

<< No the samuria is not supposed to use any other
weapons but his sword. From what I recall from my
studies the samuria is only to use his sword or a mace
in time of battle and training.
--- blazeitup26@... wrote:
> Hello,

What about Naginata, Yumi, Yari?
> I need some clarification on the issue of samuri
> warriors and the
> use of the musket.I ll just ask the question. Could
> a samurai warrior
> use firearms on the field of battle in any time in
> their history,
> without loss of honor? I know that armies of that
> used ashigaru en
> masse with these weapons , the issue for me is if
> the warriors
> themselves would use them under certain conditions
> at all.
>
>
>


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>>

[Previous #154] [Next #156]

#156 [2001-03-28 22:46:11]

Re: [samuraihistory] Samurai and use of firearms

by Ron Martino

Carlos Hamlett wrote:
>
> No the samuria is not supposed to use any other
> weapons but his sword. From what I recall from my
> studies the samuria is only to use his sword or a mace
> in time of battle and training.

Really? This is different from my reading. Do you recall the sources
you used in your studies?

Ron
--

yumitori(AT)montana(DOT)com
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[Previous #155] [Next #157]

#157 [2001-03-30 20:22:58]

Re: [samuraihistory] Samurai and use of firearms

by Arashisan@aol.com

Anyone on here actually doing reenactment? Im in MN but theres also people in
our Clan in Colorado, New Jersey, South dak.

Arashi

[Previous #156] [Next #158]

#158 [2001-03-31 00:21:37]

Re: [samuraihistory] Samurai and use of firearms

by Dgaijin@aol.com

samurais as we konw them now are different than the ones during the sengoku jidai, sure honor was always present but how to beat the enemy was the primary concern, some see using guns as contemptous while others embrace it as a ways to attain victory(ex. ieyasu and nobunaga)...the "hagakure" was written after the sengoku jidai, so all im trying to point out is that samurais are great swordsmen but not all of them have the sense of honor as how we perceive all samurai today, some are even downright dishonorable in their actions, but if there is a samurai that i would say as a perfect model for the samurais code of honor during the sengoku jidai i would vote for II Naomasa, the red devil of hikon...my 2 kokus

[Previous #157] [Next #165]

#165 [2001-04-10 17:12:22]

Re: [samuraihistory] Samurai and use of firearms

by John Lindsey (www.E-Budo.com)

On Sat, 24 Mar 2001 20:39:50 +0900, you wrote:

>
>Part of this is dealt with in the book GIVING UP THE GUN (I forget the durn
>author). He looks at the introduction of firearms and chronicles how they
>were abandoned by the samurai class.
>
>Best, Mark Hall
>


I think the general feeling about this book now is that the idea of
Japan abandoning the gun is mistaken. Instead, they failed to develop
and research improvements in its design.


John Lindsey

Administrator
www.E-Budo.com

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