Japanese Samurai History - Clan Genealogies

#1392 [2003-01-19 15:57:09]

Clan Genealogies

by kitsuno

I'm trying to put together an extended genealogy of the Sengoku
Daimyo - - most seem to have been related by marriage or offspring,
including the Toyotomi, Takeda, Hojo, Oda, etc. Right now I'm trying
to figure out two things - which of Takeda Shingen's children were
born from Lady Sanjo, and which of Oda Nobunaga's children were born
from Kitsuno. Also trying to figure out who Kitsuno's father is -
probable someone obvious that I've overlooked.
Any help is appreciated.

[Next #1393]

#1393 [2003-01-19 18:18:51]

Re: [samuraihistory] Clan Genealogies

by William letham

I wish I could help. I've looked at all the genealogies that I have, in
Rekishi Gunzo, Saigen Nihonshi, Visual Nihonshi. While they give extensive
info on children they almost never give any info on who was the mother. I
have the names of all the sons of Nobunaga but the daughters are just listed
as 'onna'. Even more frustrating is that even when they do they often
identify the mother as simply the daughter of some family without giving her
personal name.However in issue #20 of the rekishi gunzo series there is a
discussion of Nobunaga and Nohime (Saitos daughter). It says there are
different and conflicting records as to the matrilineal of some of nobunagas
children. It does say that Nobutata and Nobuo were the sons of 'a daughter
of the Ikoma'. Interesting to note Nohime's mother was the daughter of
Akechi Mitsustugu (not sure of the pronunciation) who was Akechi Mitsuhides
grandfather.

If it helps I have this info about Nobunagas children;

Fuyuhime married Gamo Ujisato
Gotoku m. Matsudaira nobuyasu
Hidekastu adopted by Hideyoshi
Kastunaga adopted by Takeda Shingen
'onna' married Takigawa Kazumasa
'onna' m. Tsutsui Sadatsugu
'onna' m. Maeda Toshinaga (Taiga drama had her as Nobunagas 4th daughter and
by the name of Eihime)
'onna' m. Niwa Nagashige
'onna' m. Hideyoshi
'onna' Mizuno Tadatane
'onna' m. Sanjo Akizane
'onna' m. Madenokouji Mitsufusa
'onna' m. Tokudaiji Sanefuyu
'onna' m. Takeda Kastuyori

as for Takeda I have 7 boys and five girls

Yoshinobu (this is the only one i am sure was born from Sanjo)
Nobuchika (who became the priest Ryobo)
Noboyuki
Kastuyuri
Morinobu (?)
Nobuzane
Nobukiyo
The girls names I have as their nuns name
Obouin m. Hojo Ujimasa
Kenboin (?) m. Anayama Umeyuki (?)
Mayuhime (?) m. Kiso Yoshiaki (?)
Ahime (?) m. Uesugi Kagekastu
Matsuhime m. Oda Nobutada

The ? indicate where I am not sur of the pronunciation. I don't have to tell
you that when I state 'married' it doesn't nescesarily mean 'wife' Its just
for convenience

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#1394 [2003-01-19 19:29:53]

Re: Clan Genealogies

by kitsuno

Thanks, that helps - and I just figured out that Kitsuno was the
daughter of Ikoma Iemune, so I guess she bore Nobutada and Nobuo.
She died pretty young, so it makes sense. After working on this off
and on (mostly off) for the past few weeks, it is starting to look
like every major Daimyo had some sort of relation to every other
daimyo in the sengoku period. Instead of playing the 'Kevin Bacon'
game, you could play the 'Takeda Shingen' game. (for anyone who
doesn't know what that is, the theory is that every actor in
existence can be traced back to Kevin Bacon with 5 or less movies.)
So far I have 55 samurai and 'Onna'.

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "William letham"
wrote:

> I wish I could help. I've looked at all the genealogies that I

have, in

> Rekishi Gunzo, Saigen Nihonshi, Visual Nihonshi. While they give

extensive

> info on children they almost never give any info on who was the

mother. I

> have the names of all the sons of Nobunaga but the daughters are

just listed

> as 'onna'. Even more frustrating is that even when they do they

often

> identify the mother as simply the daughter of some family without

giving her

> personal name.However in issue #20 of the rekishi gunzo series

there is a

> discussion of Nobunaga and Nohime (Saitos daughter). It says there

are

> different and conflicting records as to the matrilineal of some of

nobunagas

> children. It does say that Nobutata and Nobuo were the sons of 'a

daughter

> of the Ikoma'. Interesting to note Nohime's mother was the daughter

> Akechi Mitsustugu (not sure of the pronunciation) who was Akechi

Mitsuhides

> grandfather.
>
> If it helps I have this info about Nobunagas children;
>
> Fuyuhime married Gamo Ujisato
> Gotoku m. Matsudaira nobuyasu
> Hidekastu adopted by Hideyoshi
> Kastunaga adopted by Takeda Shingen
> 'onna' married Takigawa Kazumasa
> 'onna' m. Tsutsui Sadatsugu
> 'onna' m. Maeda Toshinaga (Taiga drama had her as Nobunagas 4th

daughter and

> by the name of Eihime)
> 'onna' m. Niwa Nagashige
> 'onna' m. Hideyoshi
> 'onna' Mizuno Tadatane
> 'onna' m. Sanjo Akizane
> 'onna' m. Madenokouji Mitsufusa
> 'onna' m. Tokudaiji Sanefuyu
> 'onna' m. Takeda Kastuyori
>
> as for Takeda I have 7 boys and five girls
>
> Yoshinobu (this is the only one i am sure was born from Sanjo)
> Nobuchika (who became the priest Ryobo)
> Noboyuki
> Kastuyuri
> Morinobu (?)
> Nobuzane
> Nobukiyo
> The girls names I have as their nuns name
> Obouin m. Hojo Ujimasa
> Kenboin (?) m. Anayama Umeyuki (?)
> Mayuhime (?) m. Kiso Yoshiaki (?)
> Ahime (?) m. Uesugi Kagekastu
> Matsuhime m. Oda Nobutada
>
> The ? indicate where I am not sur of the pronunciation. I don't

have to tell

> you that when I state 'married' it doesn't nescesarily mean 'wife'

Its just

> for convenience

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#1396 [2003-01-19 21:43:57]

Re: Clan Genealogies

by sinseism

Hello
Kitsuno(Ikoma-no-kata) was the mother of Nobutada ,Nobuo(Nobukatsu)
and Toku-hime(Gotoku).
Nobutaka's mother was Saka-shi whose familly rank was relatively low
and his birth was reported late,so Nobutaka,actually the 2nd son,was
treated as the 3rd son.

Sanjo was the mother of Yoshinobu,Nobuchika,Nobuyuki.
Katsuyori's mother was Suwa-Goryonin(Koi-hime)whose father,Suwa
yorishige had been killed by Shingen.
Morinobu(Nishina)'s mother was Aburagawa-bunin.

hope this helps

Shinsei

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Kitsuno "
wrote:

> I'm trying to put together an extended genealogy of the Sengoku
> Daimyo - - most seem to have been related by marriage or offspring,
> including the Toyotomi, Takeda, Hojo, Oda, etc. Right now I'm

trying

> to figure out two things - which of Takeda Shingen's children were
> born from Lady Sanjo, and which of Oda Nobunaga's children were

born

> from Kitsuno. Also trying to figure out who Kitsuno's father is -
> probable someone obvious that I've overlooked.
> Any help is appreciated.

[Previous #1394] [Next #1397]

#1397 [2003-01-19 23:05:45]

Re: Clan Genealogies

by kitsuno

That helps a LOT in getting things in order - Now just a couple more
questions ---

In my notes, I had Takeda Harukiyo (Nishina Morinobu)'s mother's
father as 'Yugawa' Nobumori. I don't remember where I got that from,
but did I misread "Aburagawa" as "Yugawa" or was "Yugawa" his
grandfather's correct last name?

Also, I have the mothers for all of Shingen's children now except for
Takeda (Kadoyama) Yoshihisa and the daughter that married Uesugi
Kagekatsu (I don't have her actual name either - my sources all
say "Onna") - anyone have thier mother(s)?.

As for Oda Nobutaka's mother, Saka-shi - does the -shi just denote
that she is from the Saka clan, or does the -shi have another meaning?

Thanks for the help. I'm up to 98 related samurai so far (Takeda
Shingen is the 'source person' for the extended family tree - I'm
using genealogy software, it makes it a lot easier to keep track of).

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Shinsei "
wrote:

> Hello
> Kitsuno(Ikoma-no-kata) was the mother of Nobutada ,Nobuo(Nobukatsu)
> and Toku-hime(Gotoku).
> Nobutaka's mother was Saka-shi whose familly rank was relatively

low

> and his birth was reported late,so Nobutaka,actually the 2nd

son,was

> treated as the 3rd son.
>
> Sanjo was the mother of Yoshinobu,Nobuchika,Nobuyuki.
> Katsuyori's mother was Suwa-Goryonin(Koi-hime)whose father,Suwa
> yorishige had been killed by Shingen.
> Morinobu(Nishina)'s mother was Aburagawa-bunin.
>
> hope this helps
>
> Shinsei
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Kitsuno "
> wrote:
> > I'm trying to put together an extended genealogy of the Sengoku
> > Daimyo - - most seem to have been related by marriage or

offspring,

> > including the Toyotomi, Takeda, Hojo, Oda, etc. Right now I'm
> trying
> > to figure out two things - which of Takeda Shingen's children

were

> > born from Lady Sanjo, and which of Oda Nobunaga's children were
> born
> > from Kitsuno. Also trying to figure out who Kitsuno's father is -

> > probable someone obvious that I've overlooked.
> > Any help is appreciated.

[Previous #1396] [Next #1398]

#1398 [2003-01-20 07:11:46]

Re: Clan Genealogies

by sinseism

>
> In my notes, I had Takeda Harukiyo (Nishina Morinobu)'s mother's
> father as 'Yugawa' Nobumori. I don't remember where I got that

from,

> but did I misread "Aburagawa" as "Yugawa" or was "Yugawa" his
> grandfather's correct last name?

Yes,Abura can be read as yu,but I think Aburagawa is its correct way
to read.

> Also, I have the mothers for all of Shingen's children now except

for

> Takeda (Kadoyama) Yoshihisa and the daughter that married Uesugi
> Kagekatsu (I don't have her actual name either - my sources all
> say "Onna") - anyone have thier mother(s)?.

I have never heard the name of Kadoyama Yoshihisa.Isn't it Kazurayama
Nobusada,Shingen's 6th son.
The daughter who married Kagekatsu is generally known by the name
Kiku-hime.
Aburagawa-bunin bore both of them.She also was the mother of Matsu-
hime who was to marry Oda Nobutada(Kimyoumaru).

> As for Oda Nobutaka's mother, Saka-shi - does the -shi just denote
> that she is from the Saka clan, or does the -shi have another

meaning?

>

Yes,you are absolutely right.In many cases,women's first name aren't
kept in Japanese histrical records.So we have no means but to call
them by their familly name.

It's my pleasure to contribute to your work...

Shinsei

[Previous #1397] [Next #1401]

#1401 [2003-01-20 16:09:51]

Re: Clan Genealogies

by kitsuno

Thanks, this is a big help. I'm not sure where Yoshihisa came from,
but it looks like it is Nobusada who I was looking for. Do you know
if Matsu-hime was the mother of Oda Hidenobu (Nobutada's son)?

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Shinsei "
wrote:

> >
> > In my notes, I had Takeda Harukiyo (Nishina Morinobu)'s mother's
> > father as 'Yugawa' Nobumori. I don't remember where I got that
> from,
> > but did I misread "Aburagawa" as "Yugawa" or was "Yugawa" his
> > grandfather's correct last name?
>
> Yes,Abura can be read as yu,but I think Aburagawa is its correct

way

> to read.
>
>
>
> > Also, I have the mothers for all of Shingen's children now except
> for
> > Takeda (Kadoyama) Yoshihisa and the daughter that married Uesugi
> > Kagekatsu (I don't have her actual name either - my sources all
> > say "Onna") - anyone have thier mother(s)?.
>
> I have never heard the name of Kadoyama Yoshihisa.Isn't it

Kazurayama

> Nobusada,Shingen's 6th son.
> The daughter who married Kagekatsu is generally known by the name
> Kiku-hime.
> Aburagawa-bunin bore both of them.She also was the mother of Matsu-
> hime who was to marry Oda Nobutada(Kimyoumaru).
>
>
>
>
> > As for Oda Nobutaka's mother, Saka-shi - does the -shi just

denote

> > that she is from the Saka clan, or does the -shi have another
> meaning?
> >
> Yes,you are absolutely right.In many cases,women's first name

aren't

> kept in Japanese histrical records.So we have no means but to call
> them by their familly name.
>
>
> It's my pleasure to contribute to your work...
>
> Shinsei

[Previous #1398]