Samurai sword

A friend and I got into a discusion about when a
samurai would draw his sword. We were wondering if a
samurai would show his sword to any one for looks or
would they only draw it to fight or practice??

Thank you for your time.

Little Samurai

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According to legend, if a samurai sword was drawn from its scabbard, it had
to draw blood. So for all intent and purposes the sword was only drawn for
fighting, practice or testing the blade.

If it were drawn for show then the finger would be lightly drawn across the
blade to draw blood before being sheathed.

Regards
Schep13

>From: j cool <jcool58801@...>
>Reply-To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
>To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [samuraihistory] Samurai sword
>Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 23:57:35 -0800 (PST)
>
>A friend and I got into a discusion about when a
>samurai would draw his sword. We were wondering if a
>samurai would show his sword to any one for looks or
>would they only draw it to fight or practice??
>
>Thank you for your time.
>
>Little Samurai
>
>__________________________________________________
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>Yahoo! Mail Plus � Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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Aldo Schepis wrote:

> According to legend, if a samurai sword was drawn from its scabbard, it had
> to draw blood. So for all intent and purposes the sword was only drawn for
> fighting, practice or testing the blade.
>

That's the kukri, the knife carried by the Gurkha. And the crysknife, carried
by the Fremen on Arrakis. Not samurai swords.

Oy.

Tony

Traditionally a Samurai would only "Break the Seal" if he intended to use the sword. It was the symbol of his soul, not a bragging tool. Besides, the weaponsmiths reputation would speak for itself. At least thats what I've come to understand.
j cool <jcool58801@...> wrote:A friend and I got into a discusion about when a
samurai would draw his sword. We were wondering if a
samurai would show his sword to any one for looks or
would they only draw it to fight or practice??

Thank you for your time.

Little Samurai

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Kitatate no Minamoto Toramitsu "AKA" Chris Klawitter

Ichiban

Metsuke

"For the honor and glory of Clan Genji"



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi

are you siure thats right. I know the Ghurkas have to
do this but i have never read that the Japanese did
it.

Paul


--- Aldo Schepis <schep13@...> wrote:

> According to legend, if a samurai sword was drawn
> from its scabbard, it had
> to draw blood. So for all intent and purposes the
> sword was only drawn for
> fighting, practice or testing the blade.
>
> If it were drawn for show then the finger would be
> lightly drawn across the
> blade to draw blood before being sheathed.
>
> Regards
> Schep13
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: j cool <jcool58801@...>
> >Reply-To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> >To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: [samuraihistory] Samurai sword
> >Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 23:57:35 -0800 (PST)
> >
> >A friend and I got into a discusion about when a
> >samurai would draw his sword. We were wondering if
> a
> >samurai would show his sword to any one for looks
> or
> >would they only draw it to fight or practice??
> >
> >Thank you for your time.
> >
> >Little Samurai
> >
> >__________________________________________________
> >Do you Yahoo!?
> >Yahoo! Mail Plus � Powerful. Affordable. Sign up
> now.
> >http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> >
> >Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
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> >samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
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> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

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That depends who's showing, who's asking, why and when. As
someone else as said, I doubt if samurai were in the habit of
showing swords to each other. In the Civil War era you were
never sure who you could trust, and in the Edo period you were
never sure how someone might react from what you say.

To offer a quick paraphrase, one man offered a compliment
regarding the other's blade, but the other guy took it as a
veiled jibe, "are you implying that I am not man enough for
this blade!" The next moment they're killing each other.

There are strict rules of ettiquette with regard to the
handling of swords taught in the martial ryu, not the least
because there's always the chance that when you show someone
your sword he then kills you with it.

An example:

The two men are kneeling opposite each other. The man passing
the sword holds it horizontally, blade towards himself, one
hand on the scabbard and one on the hilt.

As he passes it, the receiver also takes a grip of both
scabbard and hilt, and rolls the blade edge inward towards
himself as he takes it.

* * *

This is founded on the principle that:
a - if you hand a sword over holding just the scabbard, the
receiver can grab the hilt, draw the blade and cut you. You can
do likewise to him as he receives it.

b - if you hold just the hilt, the scabbard might slip off
(although the fit should be sufficient to prevent this
happening - they do wear in time, and worse things have
happened).

Likewise turning the blade edge towards oneself means it is
harder to draw (because of the curve), and the blade edge is
not pointing at the other guy (plain good manners).

Apart from that, it's purely a matter of politeness. It's
impolite to point a drawn blade at someone, or its edge, in any
country. Swords are sharp and can cut, and for this reason
alone should be treated with respect. Imagine someone
showing you his gun by pointing it at your face!

Thomas

Tony,
I was just thinking about all the samurai swords that are in museums
and in great condition. I've heard that european blades are
difficult to come by in good condition due to oxidation from constant
handling.
I had heard the similar story about the samurai sword only being
drawn to taste blood... so I'm curious, as this was the explaination
(albiet misinformed) for the condition of samurai swords.
I do realize that the samurai regaurded their blades more highly than
any European blade (even x-caliber). The famous grass cutter and
other blades are the holy grails of Samurai Myth & Legend. I also
know that if a blade is inspected they have a very special method
(almost cermonial) to preserve the blade after inspection.
Can you tell us exaclty why Samurai blades have survived so long with
so little oxidation? Or you can tell me that I'm on crack and
everything I just said was also misinformed. You are the expert. I
trust anything you would tell us more than any other western souce.
Thanks.

Brandon
--- In samuraihistory@y..., "Anthony J. Bryant"
wrote:

> Aldo Schepis wrote:
>
> > According to legend, if a samurai sword was drawn from its

scabbard, it had

> > to draw blood. So for all intent and purposes the sword was only

drawn for

> > fighting, practice or testing the blade.
> >
>
> That's the kukri, the knife carried by the Gurkha. And the

crysknife, carried

> by the Fremen on Arrakis. Not samurai swords.
>
> Oy.
>
> Tony

A samurai could unsheath his sword for a number of non-violent reasons,
the most common of which were to allow others to appreciate the blade,
and the regular cleaning which was mandatory in Japan's notoriously damp
climate to prevent rust.

Examination of the blade was supposedly performed according to strict
rules of etiquette whereby the blade was withdrawn from the scabbard
by degrees. The procedure is described in more detail in Nitobe's famous
work, "Bushido."

Cleaning the blade required complete removal from the scabbard, followed
by application of a light powder (uchigo), which was then cleaned away
with a soft
rice paper, or sometimes with silk. Finally a very fine coat of oil of
cloves
(choji abura) would be applied to the steel with a clean cloth.

Toramitsu wrote:

>Traditionally a Samurai would only "Break the Seal" if he intended to use the sword. It was the symbol of his soul, not a bragging tool. Besides, the weaponsmiths reputation would speak for itself. At least thats what I've come to understand.
> j cool <jcool58801@...> wrote:A friend and I got into a discusion about when a
>samurai would draw his sword. We were wondering if a
>samurai would show his sword to any one for looks or
>would they only draw it to fight or practice??
>
>Thank you for your time.
>
>Little Samurai
>
>__________________________________________________
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>
>
>
>
>Kitatate no Minamoto Toramitsu "AKA" Chris Klawitter
>
>Ichiban
>
>Metsuke
>
>"For the honor and glory of Clan Genji"
>
>
>
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Now, a mandatory cleaning of the samurai swords were
needed if you lived in a coastal city Edo or Kamakura,
the samurai I think cleaned his blade twice a week to
make sure it stays clean and no rust appears on the
blade. Now, letting others admire and appreciate the
blade of the sword I really don't, I think it could be
that he wanted to show the blade.



--- Herb Lison <HerbLison@...> wrote:

> A samurai could unsheath his sword for a number of
> non-violent reasons,
> the most common of which were to allow others to
> appreciate the blade,
> and the regular cleaning which was mandatory in
> Japan's notoriously damp
> climate to prevent rust.
>
> Examination of the blade was supposedly performed
> according to strict
> rules of etiquette whereby the blade was withdrawn
> from the scabbard
> by degrees. The procedure is described in more
> detail in Nitobe's famous
> work, "Bushido."
>
> Cleaning the blade required complete removal from
> the scabbard, followed
> by application of a light powder (uchigo), which was
> then cleaned away
> with a soft
> rice paper, or sometimes with silk. Finally a very
> fine coat of oil of
> cloves
> (choji abura) would be applied to the steel with a
> clean cloth.
>
> Toramitsu wrote:
>
> >Traditionally a Samurai would only "Break the Seal"
> if he intended to use the sword. It was the symbol
> of his soul, not a bragging tool. Besides, the
> weaponsmiths reputation would speak for itself. At
> least thats what I've come to understand.
> > j cool <jcool58801@...> wrote:A friend and I
> got into a discusion about when a
> >samurai would draw his sword. We were wondering if
> a
> >samurai would show his sword to any one for looks
> or
> >would they only draw it to fight or practice??
> >
> >Thank you for your time.
> >
> >Little Samurai
> >
> >__________________________________________________
> >Do you Yahoo!?
> >Yahoo! Mail Plus � Powerful. Affordable. Sign up
> now.
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> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Kitatate no Minamoto Toramitsu "AKA" Chris
> Klawitter
> >
> >Ichiban
> >
> >Metsuke
> >
> >"For the honor and glory of Clan Genji"
> >
> >
> >
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Hey, I asked if it depended on how the samurai wore
his sword that would determine how he draw the sword
out of the saccbard. I know how the samurai had his
sash, which allowed him to carry the swords in the
first place.



--- Thomas Davidson <thomas@...> wrote:

> That depends who's showing, who's asking, why and
> when. As
> someone else as said, I doubt if samurai were in the
> habit of
> showing swords to each other. In the Civil War era
> you were
> never sure who you could trust, and in the Edo
> period you were
> never sure how someone might react from what you
> say.
>
> To offer a quick paraphrase, one man offered a
> compliment
> regarding the other's blade, but the other guy took
> it as a
> veiled jibe, "are you implying that I am not man
> enough for
> this blade!" The next moment they're killing each
> other.
>
> There are strict rules of ettiquette with regard to
> the
> handling of swords taught in the martial ryu, not
> the least
> because there's always the chance that when you show
> someone
> your sword he then kills you with it.
>
> An example:
>
> The two men are kneeling opposite each other. The
> man passing
> the sword holds it horizontally, blade towards
> himself, one
> hand on the scabbard and one on the hilt.
>
> As he passes it, the receiver also takes a grip of
> both
> scabbard and hilt, and rolls the blade edge inward
> towards
> himself as he takes it.
>
> * * *
>
> This is founded on the principle that:
> a - if you hand a sword over holding just the
> scabbard, the
> receiver can grab the hilt, draw the blade and cut
> you. You can
> do likewise to him as he receives it.
>
> b - if you hold just the hilt, the scabbard might
> slip off
> (although the fit should be sufficient to prevent
> this
> happening - they do wear in time, and worse things
> have
> happened).
>
> Likewise turning the blade edge towards oneself
> means it is
> harder to draw (because of the curve), and the blade
> edge is
> not pointing at the other guy (plain good manners).
>
> Apart from that, it's purely a matter of politeness.
> It's
> impolite to point a drawn blade at someone, or its
> edge, in any
> country. Swords are sharp and can cut, and for this
> reason
> alone should be treated with respect. Imagine
> someone
> showing you his gun by pointing it at your face!
>
> Thomas
>
>
>
>
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> ---
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> samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
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> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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>

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I was unaware that a Samurai would allow others to just appreciate his blade. Thats why I joined this list, to learn. However, cleaning and maintanance is a given though.
Herb Lison <HerbLison@...> wrote:A samurai could unsheath his sword for a number of non-violent reasons,
the most common of which were to allow others to appreciate the blade,
and the regular cleaning which was mandatory in Japan's notoriously damp
climate to prevent rust.

Examination of the blade was supposedly performed according to strict
rules of etiquette whereby the blade was withdrawn from the scabbard
by degrees. The procedure is described in more detail in Nitobe's famous
work, "Bushido."

Cleaning the blade required complete removal from the scabbard, followed
by application of a light powder (uchigo), which was then cleaned away
with a soft
rice paper, or sometimes with silk. Finally a very fine coat of oil of
cloves
(choji abura) would be applied to the steel with a clean cloth.

Toramitsu wrote:

>Traditionally a Samurai would only "Break the Seal" if he intended to use the sword. It was the symbol of his soul, not a bragging tool. Besides, the weaponsmiths reputation would speak for itself. At least thats what I've come to understand.
> j cool wrote:A friend and I got into a discusion about when a
>samurai would draw his sword. We were wondering if a
>samurai would show his sword to any one for looks or
>would they only draw it to fight or practice??
>
>Thank you for your time.
>
>Little Samurai
>
>__________________________________________________
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>
>
>
>
>Kitatate no Minamoto Toramitsu "AKA" Chris Klawitter
>
>Ichiban
>
>Metsuke
>
>"For the honor and glory of Clan Genji"
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
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midorinotoradesu wrote:

> Tony,
> I was just thinking about all the samurai swords that are in museums
> and in great condition. I've heard that european blades are
> difficult to come by in good condition due to oxidation from constant
> handling.

Well, not really. Remember that the sword-carrying culture of the medieval
mindset went away in the 16th century in Europe, but only about 150 years
ago in Japan. Japan also had the advantage of 250 years of peace to turn
swords from tools into simple art. Japan also had a tradition of donating
armour and weapons to temples and shrines, who then preserved the offerings.
Europe had no such tradition that protected things. If things in Europe
weren't kept in the local castle or family attic, they went away.

>
> I had heard the similar story about the samurai sword only being
> drawn to taste blood... so I'm curious, as this was the explaination
> (albiet misinformed) for the condition of samurai swords.

Wouldn't work. If anything, after being bloodied a sword has to be cleaned
or it'll start rusting *really* fast. Remember, the reason for blood is to
get oxygen through the body. Blood is a *great* oxidization agent.

>
> I do realize that the samurai regaurded their blades more highly than
> any European blade (even x-caliber). The famous grass cutter and
> other blades are the holy grails of Samurai Myth & Legend. I also
> know that if a blade is inspected they have a very special method
> (almost cermonial) to preserve the blade after inspection.

Not really, there are just "things they do." Things like holding paper in
one's mouth to deflect one's breath away from the blade (moist breath is
great for oxidizing blades, too).

>
> Can you tell us exaclty why Samurai blades have survived so long with
> so little oxidation?

Because people take care of them. They clean them regularly. That's it. No
secrets, no tricks.

> Or you can tell me that I'm on crack and
> everything I just said was also misinformed. You are the expert. I
> trust anything you would tell us more than any other western souce.

I appreciate the vote of confidence, but armour is really my specialty.

Tony

Tony's comments strike me as inaccurate, with regards to both European
and Japanese
attitudes toward swords.

Both cultures regarded the sword as the knightly weapon, par excellence.
In Japan the
sword had additional signficance, in part, I suspect, because a sword
was one of the
three Imperial regalia, and thus had mystical and semi-religious overtones.

The samurai class in Japan constituted a much greater percentage of the
population
than the knightly class did in Europe. Consequently there were a lot
more swords
made and a lot more survived. The notion that the Europeans had no
notion of
"protecting things" is simply not true. There are still fabulous collections
of medieval weapons all over Europe in museums and private hands.

The habit of carrying swords in the west, medieval or not, only ended
about 150
years ago. Officers in the Civil War carried swords and used them. When
the Queen of Holland gave General Eisenhower a token of her country's
esteem,
it was a highly decorated sword, not a machine gun.

Swordmaking in Japan was a major art form, and is still practiced by
numerous
individuals, some of whom have been designated "Living National
Treasures" by
the Japanese government. The skill required to forge a samurai sword
staggers
one's imagination, and requires many years to master. The allied art
of making
the sword fittings is also astounding in its complexity. The great
names of the
sword art are as important culturally in Japan as Rembrandt and Picasso are
in the west. A recent exhibition of the swords of Masamune, perhaps the
greatest of all swordsmiths, drew record crowds at the Tokugawa Art Museum
in Nagoya.

There are now numerous books available in English for westerners interested
in the Japanese sword. I would be glad to post a bibliography of such
items
if there are sufficient requests. A good book for beginners is John
Yumoto's
classic work, "The Samurai Sword, A Handbook" published by Tuttle.


Anthony J. Bryant wrote:

> midorinotoradesu wrote:
>
> > Tony,
> > I was just thinking about all the samurai swords that are in museums
> > and in great condition. I've heard that european blades are
> > difficult to come by in good condition due to oxidation from constant
> > handling.
>
> Well, not really. Remember that the sword-carrying culture of the medieval
> mindset went away in the 16th century in Europe, but only about 150 years
> ago in Japan. Japan also had the advantage of 250 years of peace to turn
> swords from tools into simple art. Japan also had a tradition of donating
> armour and weapons to temples and shrines, who then preserved the
> offerings.
> Europe had no such tradition that protected things. If things in Europe
> weren't kept in the local castle or family attic, they went away.
>
> >
> > I had heard the similar story about the samurai sword only being
> > drawn to taste blood... so I'm curious, as this was the explaination
> > (albiet misinformed) for the condition of samurai swords.
>
> Wouldn't work. If anything, after being bloodied a sword has to be cleaned
> or it'll start rusting *really* fast. Remember, the reason for blood is to
> get oxygen through the body. Blood is a *great* oxidization agent.
>
> >
> > I do realize that the samurai regaurded their blades more highly than
> > any European blade (even x-caliber). The famous grass cutter and
> > other blades are the holy grails of Samurai Myth & Legend. I also
> > know that if a blade is inspected they have a very special method
> > (almost cermonial) to preserve the blade after inspection.
>
> Not really, there are just "things they do." Things like holding paper in
> one's mouth to deflect one's breath away from the blade (moist breath is
> great for oxidizing blades, too).
>
> >
> > Can you tell us exaclty why Samurai blades have survived so long with
> > so little oxidation?
>
> Because people take care of them. They clean them regularly. That's it. No
> secrets, no tricks.
>
> > Or you can tell me that I'm on crack and
> > everything I just said was also misinformed. You are the expert. I
> > trust anything you would tell us more than any other western souce.
>
> I appreciate the vote of confidence, but armour is really my
> specialty.
>
> Tony
>
>
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>
>
> From: "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...>
>
>
>>Can you tell us exactly why Samurai blades have survived so long with
>>so little oxidation?
>>
>>
>Because people take care of them. They clean them regularly. That's it. No
>secrets, no tricks.
>
>

I've heard that some of the iron used in constructing the swords was
high in nickel which would certainly help make swords made from it more
corrosion resistant. However note that even stainless steel rusts if
it's not cared for, it's just a slower process than pure high carbon
steels. I wouldn't call this a secret of this period, it wasn't really
until the late 19th and early 20th century that people understood why
certain iron ores had superior characteristics for certain applications.
Being high in nickel is not necessarily a good characteristic, most
stainless steels are inferior in edge holding characteristics compared
to pure high carbon steels which is why most good carpenter tools are
still made from it.

Jim Eckman

Herb Lison wrote:

> Tony's comments strike me as inaccurate, with regards to both European
> and Japanese
> attitudes toward swords.
>

That's because I was trying to keep it simple. I'm talking about so-called knightly swords, not the tradition of smallswords, rapiers, officers' sabres and so on. Actual, knightly-class, swords.

>
> The samurai class in Japan constituted a much greater percentage of the
> population
> than the knightly class did in Europe. Consequently there were a lot
> more swords
> made and a lot more survived. The notion that the Europeans had no
> notion of
> "protecting things" is simply not true.

Again, I'm talking about specifically taking care of swords. How many European swords from the 1300s have a mirror polish on them? There are hundreds of Japanese swords of this age that do. There's a
difference between stashing them somewhere for safekeeping, and keeping them in a treasure house and cleaning them periodically.

> There are still fabulous collections
> of medieval weapons all over Europe in museums and private hands.

Yes, I've seen quite a few. But in terms of numbers, they're still lower (percentage, by date) than those in Japan, and in less good condition. How often do swords in Japan get classified from a battlefield
find? Not too often, but many of the examples that Oakenshott and others use to classify types are dug up out of the ground and need to be conserved, rather than preserved.

>
> The habit of carrying swords in the west, medieval or not, only ended
> about 150
> years ago. Officers in the Civil War carried swords and used them. When
> the Queen of Holland gave General Eisenhower a token of her country's
> esteem,
> it was a highly decorated sword, not a machine gun.
>

Again, I'm talking "knightly swords" not modern swords. The way we regard them and still use them (e.g., still in today's army and so forth we have officers' dress swords) is irrelevant to a discussion of
historical knightly swords. Comparing these to Japanese swords is apples and oranges; better to compare those to gunto

>
> There are now numerous books available in English for westerners interested
> in the Japanese sword. I would be glad to post a bibliography of such
> items
> if there are sufficient requests. A good book for beginners is John
> Yumoto's
> classic work, "The Samurai Sword, A Handbook" published by Tuttle.

A good book, but rather basic. Personally, I prefer my Japanese books... I think I only have two or three in English.

Tony