Why are people flaming Steven Turnbull?

I have not followed this discussion regarding Turnbull. Why are
people flamming Turnbull? I find his work is excellent and quite
usefull. My opinion is that his work is the best I have seen, I have
work from Bryant, Bottomley, Turnbull and some other author whose
name I forget. Turnbull's work to me out of this groups is the most
thorough.

Why the flaming??????? I don't want rumour I want facts on Turnbull.
If someone is tarnishing a reputation based on rumor I do not want to
hear about it. If there is evidence then I will listen.

I don't think this dead horse deserves much more beating, so here are
a few links:


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/samuraihistory/message/665
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/samuraihistory/message/1072
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/samuraihistory/message/1079

Those should start you off.
I'm sure there is probably more if not here then at the Samurai
History Forum.

If I had the time and inclination (neither of which I currently have)
I could pinpoint various other innacuracies in Turnbull's works,
including a few where he contradicts himself on different pages of
the same book. If you've read my previous posts, I hope you'll
gather that I have nothing against the guy personally, I just have
issues with his work, but don't take my word for it, grab some of his
books, and compare what he writes to the Japanese sources, as well as
Papinot. In one of his books he has a picture of something
like "authors sketch of a calvalary charge" or something like that,
which is ACTUALLY A HAND-SKETCHED COPY of a picture from one of the
Rekishi Gunzo books! Of course he doesn't mention that fact in his
book, though.

In essence, it is the contention of myself and apparently some others
on this forum that Turnbull is either a poor researcher or a lazy
researcher, or at the very least doesn't actually use any of the
Japanese sources he cites except in the most rudimentary way. If you
have a copy of Turnbull's samurai warriors book and a copy of
Papinot's book, the fact that Turnbull took heavily from it is
painfully obvious even though he didn't cite it. However he cites
many Japanese sources that contradict things he puts in his books.
I don't consider these posts 'flames' - I consider them legitimate
complaints against his scholarship.

I still want to know what this guy's doctorate is actually IN!!!!
Like I said, if he is a doctor of journalism or economics, or
something unrelated to Japanese history, I'll recant everything I've
ever said about him. If he has a legitimate doctorate in Japanese
history, well.............

--- In samuraihistory@y..., "ggouveia312000" wrote:
> I have not followed this discussion regarding Turnbull. Why are
> people flamming Turnbull? I find his work is excellent and quite
> usefull. My opinion is that his work is the best I have seen, I
have
> work from Bryant, Bottomley, Turnbull and some other author whose
> name I forget. Turnbull's work to me out of this groups is the most
> thorough.
>
> Why the flaming??????? I don't want rumour I want facts on
Turnbull.
> If someone is tarnishing a reputation based on rumor I do not want
to
> hear about it. If there is evidence then I will listen.

Ggouveia:

To some extent I agree. Turnbull is one of the most
ACCESSIBLE authors in English, and let's face it, most
of us don't have the Japanese level to read about
Sengoku Jidai history in Japanese. According to the
Army, I speak fluent Japanese; ask me to translate
pages from Rekishi Gunzo, it takes me a day per page.

Turnbull definitely is NOT the most academic of
authors. If you've read more than three of his books,
you've read the same information at least twice. Many
of his newer books are rehashes of the same
information, repackaged to sell more titles. I believe
that is much of what people are complaining about.
Some people also feel his information is "dumbed
down". My argument is that very few people want to
read about the effects of the change from the koku
taxation system to the koban taxation system on some
obscure village in Shikoku. However, most of the
"academic" authors focus on inane things like this. My
interest is military and political history, and aside
from the "classics" like Sansom, Berry, and other
mentioned, Turnbull is one of the few out there that
is readable without a degree in Greek.

Bottomley & Hopson are EXCELLENT when it comes to
Armour and weapons development. AJ Bryant is excellent
too.

For those who complain about Turnbull's (lack of)
scholarship: Have you read any nof his newer books?
Either the Kakure-kirishtan or the one on the Korean
invasions? I have not yet (I want the Korean invasion
book) but I believe they are probably based a little
more on original research than his older books. Again,
rewrites to get more copies sold, I believe.

That doesn't mean his writing is worthless or bad. All
it means is TONY, YOU NEED TO PUBLISH MORE, to give us
something else! (Tony, you know I love you!)

Nate Ledbetter

I AGREE COMPLETELY: if you read Samurai Warriors,
Samurai Warlords, Battles of the Samurai, Samurai
Warfare....they all read essentially the same, even
down to the anecdotes!
--- ggouveia312000 <ggouveia@...> wrote:

> I have not followed this discussion regarding
> Turnbull. Why are
> people flamming Turnbull? I find his work is
> excellent and quite
> usefull. My opinion is that his work is the best I
> have seen, I have
> work from Bryant, Bottomley, Turnbull and some other
> author whose
> name I forget. Turnbull's work to me out of this
> groups is the most
> thorough.
>
> Why the flaming??????? I don't want rumour I want
> facts on Turnbull.
> If someone is tarnishing a reputation based on rumor
> I do not want to
> hear about it. If there is evidence then I will
> listen.
>
>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

--- In samuraihistory@y..., Nate Ledbetter wrote:

> Ggouveia:
>
> To some extent I agree. Turnbull is one of the most
> ACCESSIBLE authors in English, and let's face it, most
> of us don't have the Japanese level to read about
> Sengoku Jidai history in Japanese. According to the
> Army, I speak fluent Japanese; ask me to translate
> pages from Rekishi Gunzo, it takes me a day per page.
>
> Turnbull definitely is NOT the most academic of
> authors. If you've read more than three of his books,
> you've read the same information at least twice. Many
> of his newer books are rehashes of the same
> information, repackaged to sell more titles. I believe
> that is much of what people are complaining about.
> Some people also feel his information is "dumbed
> down". My argument is that very few people want to
> read about the effects of the change from the koku
> taxation system to the koban taxation system on some
> obscure village in Shikoku. However, most of the
> "academic" authors focus on inane things like this. My
> interest is military and political history, and aside
> from the "classics" like Sansom, Berry, and other
> mentioned, Turnbull is one of the few out there that
> is readable without a degree in Greek.
>
> Bottomley & Hopson are EXCELLENT when it comes to
> Armour and weapons development. AJ Bryant is excellent
> too.
>
> For those who complain about Turnbull's (lack of)
> scholarship: Have you read any nof his newer books?
> Either the Kakure-kirishtan or the one on the Korean
> invasions? I have not yet (I want the Korean invasion
> book) but I believe they are probably based a little
> more on original research than his older books. Again,
> rewrites to get more copies sold, I believe.
>
> That doesn't mean his writing is worthless or bad. All
> it means is TONY, YOU NEED TO PUBLISH MORE, to give us
> something else! (Tony, you know I love you!)
>
> Nate Ledbetter
>
> I AGREE COMPLETELY: if you read Samurai Warriors,
> Samurai Warlords, Battles of the Samurai, Samurai
> Warfare....they all read essentially the same, even
> down to the anecdotes!

Upon further examination you are correct. The English sources are
quite scarce and there is little competition. As I recall many of
what he writes is rehashed from his other books.

Message: 7
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:37:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...>
Subject: Re: Why are people flaming Steven Turnbull?

Ggouveia:

Bottomley & Hopson are EXCELLENT when it comes to
Armour and weapons development. AJ Bryant is excellent
too.

For those who complain about Turnbull's (lack of)
scholarship: Have you read any nof his newer books?
Either the Kakure-kirishtan or the one on the Korean
invasions? I have not yet (I want the Korean invasion
book) but I believe they are probably based a little
more on original research than his older books. Again,
rewrites to get more copies sold, I believe.

--> Nate, without double checking sources and dates, the Korean Invasion
book is in my opinion an excellant read, and worth every penny spent.

That doesn't mean his writing is worthless or bad. All
it means is TONY, YOU NEED TO PUBLISH MORE, to give us
something else! (Tony, you know I love you!)

Nate Ledbetter


---> Nate, I also agree with this, and Tony, as part of a publishing
business, if you have any interest in getting back into print in a small way
drop me a note offline and we can discuss more.

And sorry everyone else for a blanant plug here, and taking advantage of an
opportunity, buts its Nates fault, he lead me on

Kind regards

Rob

Rob Broom
Warhammer Historical General Manager
robb@...
www.warhammer-historical.com