S-A Podcast EP05 The Myth of Samurai Giving Up the Gun

S-A Podcast EP05 The Myth of Samurai Giving Up the Gun

Link: http://bit.ly/kS40ha

In this podcast we examine the myth of Japan's Samurai giving up the gun during the Edo period (1603-1868). In 1979, Professor Noel Perrin wrote a book called Giving Up the Gun, Japan's Reversion to the Sword, 1543-1879, and in this book he claims that Japan gave up the gun, or "put the genie back in the bottle" as it were, and pushes his theory to show that the contemporary nuclear arms race happening as he wrote the book could be reversed. A great thought, unfortunately in academic circles in the West and Japan, his work is not taken seriously, and the Japanese language version explicitly states that the book is not based on historical fact. Despite this, writers and scholars who do not generally focus on Japan have liberally cited his work, which has kept the myth alive. Add to that the pop-culture image of Samurai as honor-bound righteous warriors who would never do something so dishonorable as shoot an enemy from a distance, and it's easy to see why the myth has endured.

Japan in fact didn't "give up the gun" at all. Guns were being produced and used throughout the Edo period. It was more of an issue of guns not being necessary during this time of peace, and Samurai already being armed with swords as a matter of course anyway - why bring a bulky, long-barreled muzzle-loading single-shot arquebus to a sword duel?

Mentioned in this podcast:

Etheridge, Charles, Reinventing the Sword: A Cultural Comparison of the Development of the Sword in Response to the Advent of Firearms in Spain and Japan. (Thesis)
LA State University, 2007 http://bit.ly/lksqzU

Arima, Seiho, The Western Influence on Japanese Military Science, Shipbuilding, and Navigation
Monumenta Nipponica, Vol. 19 No. 3/4 Sophia University, 1964 http://bit.ly/jlBTDw

Perrin, Noel, Giving Up the Gun, Japan's Reversion to the Sword, 1543-1879
D. R. Godine; First Edition edition 1979 http://astore.amazon.com/samurai-20/detail/0879237732

The Chinese discovered gunpowder in the 9th century. Do I understand
correctly that the Japanese did not acquire this technology until the mid
16th century with Portuguese guns? (The route would be from China to Arabia
to Europe and from there all the way back to Japan.. This is not at all
intuitive.) Similarly, the Chinese had movable type and a crude printing
press (via India) by the mid 11th c., the Koreans the same 3 centuries later
and apparently the Japanese even later than that. Given the geographical
juxtaposition, the treaties, diplomatic missions, the trade, and countless
other factors, I am completely mystified that a technological advance by one
country would not be almost immediately adopted by the other two. I demand
an explanation. (But if that is impolite I meekly beg one.)

-d

Ride wanted, off planet. Will share driving/expenses


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Two podcast episodes before the one you are responding to, we actually cover this specific topic:

EP03 The History of Guns in Medieval Japan

http://samuraiarchives.podbean.com/2011/05/16/ep03-the-history-of-guns-in-medieval-japan/


"In the 3rd episode of the Samurai Archives Podcast, your hosts tackle the history of the gun in Japan prior to and including the introduction of firearms by the Portuguese in the 1540's. Contrary to popular belief, and often overlooked by historians, guns did in fact make their way into Japan as early as the 1450's, mainly through Ryukyu or to mainland Japan via China and Korea. Although they remained more of an oddity or curio until they were mass produced beginning in the 1540's, there are accounts of them in Japan long before the introduction by Western traders, which we present to you in this episode. And, for anyone who has ever wondered what the difference is between a musket, matchlock, and arquebus, we'll give you a concise explanation of the types of firearms in question."

So, rather than reinvent the wheel here, I'd recommend a listen to the above podcast, and then follow up with questions and we'll do our best to answer them. But in a nutshell, yes, guns did arrive in Japan before the 16th century from China/Korea - just not in sufficient numbers to build an arsenal, or they were thought of as "curiosities" and not produced in Japan.

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Sheridan wrote:
>
> The Chinese discovered gunpowder in the 9th century. Do I understand
> correctly that the Japanese did not acquire this technology until the mid
> 16th century with Portuguese guns? (The route would be from China to Arabia
> to Europe and from there all the way back to Japan.. This is not at all
> intuitive.) Similarly, the Chinese had movable type and a crude printing
> press (via India) by the mid 11th c., the Koreans the same 3 centuries later
> and apparently the Japanese even later than that. Given the geographical
> juxtaposition, the treaties, diplomatic missions, the trade, and countless
> other factors, I am completely mystified that a technological advance by one
> country would not be almost immediately adopted by the other two. I demand
> an explanation. (But if that is impolite I meekly beg one.)
>
> -d
>
> Ride wanted, off planet. Will share driving/expenses
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I would also add that demanding anything, via a medium that doesn't allow you to indicate sarcasm, is a piss poor way to try to get an answer.


There's a significant time and effort commitment that goes into these podcasts. A little courtesy and decency would be nice.

>________________________________
>From: kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...>
>To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Tuesday, September 6, 2011 6:37 PM
>Subject: [samuraihistory] Re: S-A Podcast EP05 The Myth of Samurai Giving Up the Gun
>
>
> 
>Two podcast episodes before the one you are responding to, we actually cover this specific topic:
>
>EP03 The History of Guns in Medieval Japan
>
>http://samuraiarchives.podbean.com/2011/05/16/ep03-the-history-of-guns-in-medieval-japan/
>
>"In the 3rd episode of the Samurai Archives Podcast, your hosts tackle the history of the gun in Japan prior to and including the introduction of firearms by the Portuguese in the 1540's. Contrary to popular belief, and often overlooked by historians, guns did in fact make their way into Japan as early as the 1450's, mainly through Ryukyu or to mainland Japan via China and Korea. Although they remained more of an oddity or curio until they were mass produced beginning in the 1540's, there are accounts of them in Japan long before the introduction by Western traders, which we present to you in this episode. And, for anyone who has ever wondered what the difference is between a musket, matchlock, and arquebus, we'll give you a concise explanation of the types of firearms in question."
>
>So, rather than reinvent the wheel here, I'd recommend a listen to the above podcast, and then follow up with questions and we'll do our best to answer them. But in a nutshell, yes, guns did arrive in Japan before the 16th century from China/Korea - just not in sufficient numbers to build an arsenal, or they were thought of as "curiosities" and not produced in Japan.
>
>--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Sheridan wrote:
>>
>> The Chinese discovered gunpowder in the 9th century. Do I understand
>> correctly that the Japanese did not acquire this technology until the mid
>> 16th century with Portuguese guns? (The route would be from China to Arabia
>> to Europe and from there all the way back to Japan.. This is not at all
>> intuitive.) Similarly, the Chinese had movable type and a crude printing
>> press (via India) by the mid 11th c., the Koreans the same 3 centuries later
>> and apparently the Japanese even later than that. Given the geographical
>> juxtaposition, the treaties, diplomatic missions, the trade, and countless
>> other factors, I am completely mystified that a technological advance by one
>> country would not be almost immediately adopted by the other two. I demand
>> an explanation. (But if that is impolite I meekly beg one.)
>>
>> -d
>>
>> Ride wanted, off planet. Will share driving/expenses
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks, Kitsuno. I probably should not have quoted this thread as I wasn't
asking about guns per se, but specifically gunpowder and the printing press
and generally about the development of technology in Asia. By the time
Japan adopted the use of flintlocks, the Chinese already had cannons,
grenades, and significant development in the use of gunpowder. I do not see
where any development of uses for gunpowder occurred until after the arrival
of the Portuguese. More importantly, the arrival of the printing press
appears to be equally disdained.. While the Chinese were printing books,
Japan still preferred writing? I believe there are examples in textile
production and architecture as well, where significant advances were not
readily adopted. Just curious if there might be an explanation or just an
oddity of history. I can't find similar examples in Western history. In the
West, technology moves from country to country like wildfire, with everyone
claiming they invented it..

-d

Ride wanted, off planet. Will share driving/expenses

On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 9:37 PM, kitsuno <
samurai-listowner@...> wrote:

>
> Two podcast episodes before the one you are responding to, we actually
> cover this specific topic:
> EP03 The History of Guns in Medieval Japan
> http://samuraiarchives.podbean.com/2011/05/16/ep03-the-history-of-guns-in-medieval-japan/
>
> So, rather than reinvent the wheel here, I'd recommend a listen to the
> above podcast, and then follow up with questions and we'll do our best to
> answer them. But in a nutshell, yes, guns did arrive in Japan before the
> 16th century from China/Korea - just not in sufficient numbers to build an
> arsenal, or they were thought of as "curiosities" and not produced in Japan.
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Sheridan
> wrote:
> >
> > The Chinese discovered gunpowder in the 9th century. Do I understand
> > correctly that the Japanese did not acquire this technology until the mid
> > 16th century with Portuguese guns? (The route would be from China to
> Arabia
> > to Europe and from there all the way back to Japan.. This is not at all
> > intuitive.) Similarly, the Chinese had movable type and a crude printing
> > press (via India) by the mid 11th c., the Koreans the same 3 centuries
> later
> > and apparently the Japanese even later than that. Given the geographical
> > juxtaposition, the treaties, diplomatic missions, the trade, and
> countless
> > other factors, I am completely mystified that a technological advance by
> one
> > country would not be almost immediately adopted by the other two. I
> demand
> > an explanation. (But if that is impolite I meekly beg one.)
> >
> > -d
> >
> > Ride wanted, off planet. Will share driving/expenses
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well, we will be doing a podcast specifically regarding Edo period Japanese books (Travis, of the podcast, spent the summer at the Smithsonian working with old Japanese texts, so we're going to do a podcasts about his experience - he might be able to shed some light on the printing press/hand writing question.

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Sheridan wrote:
>
> Thanks, Kitsuno. I probably should not have quoted this thread as I wasn't
> asking about guns per se, but specifically gunpowder and the printing press
> and generally about the development of technology in Asia. By the time
> Japan adopted the use of flintlocks, the Chinese already had cannons,
> grenades, and significant development in the use of gunpowder. I do not see
> where any development of uses for gunpowder occurred until after the arrival
> of the Portuguese. More importantly, the arrival of the printing press
> appears to be equally disdained.. While the Chinese were printing books,
> Japan still preferred writing? I believe there are examples in textile
> production and architecture as well, where significant advances were not
> readily adopted. Just curious if there might be an explanation or just an
> oddity of history. I can't find similar examples in Western history. In the
> West, technology moves from country to country like wildfire, with everyone
> claiming they invented it..
>
> -d
>
> Ride wanted, off planet. Will share driving/expenses
>
> On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 9:37 PM, kitsuno <
> samurai-listowner@...> wrote:
> >
> > Two podcast episodes before the one you are responding to, we actually
> > cover this specific topic:
> > EP03 The History of Guns in Medieval Japan
> > http://samuraiarchives.podbean.com/2011/05/16/ep03-the-history-of-guns-in-medieval-japan/
> >
> > So, rather than reinvent the wheel here, I'd recommend a listen to the
> > above podcast, and then follow up with questions and we'll do our best to
> > answer them. But in a nutshell, yes, guns did arrive in Japan before the
> > 16th century from China/Korea - just not in sufficient numbers to build an
> > arsenal, or they were thought of as "curiosities" and not produced in Japan.
> >
> > --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Sheridan
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > The Chinese discovered gunpowder in the 9th century. Do I understand
> > > correctly that the Japanese did not acquire this technology until the mid
> > > 16th century with Portuguese guns? (The route would be from China to
> > Arabia
> > > to Europe and from there all the way back to Japan.. This is not at all
> > > intuitive.) Similarly, the Chinese had movable type and a crude printing
> > > press (via India) by the mid 11th c., the Koreans the same 3 centuries
> > later
> > > and apparently the Japanese even later than that. Given the geographical
> > > juxtaposition, the treaties, diplomatic missions, the trade, and
> > countless
> > > other factors, I am completely mystified that a technological advance by
> > one
> > > country would not be almost immediately adopted by the other two. I
> > demand
> > > an explanation. (But if that is impolite I meekly beg one.)
> > >
> > > -d
> > >
> > > Ride wanted, off planet. Will share driving/expenses
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Hi can u guys tell me what mitori means anyone no and dose any one no were can I go on line to look up kamon's on katabami and the meaning and what lord they belong to

Sent from my BlackBerry� by Boost Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: "kitsuno" <samurai-listowner@...>
Sender: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2011 03:41:03
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [samuraihistory] Re: S-A Podcast EP05 The Myth of Samurai Giving Up the Gun

Well, we will be doing a podcast specifically regarding Edo period Japanese books (Travis, of the podcast, spent the summer at the Smithsonian working with old Japanese texts, so we're going to do a podcasts about his experience - he might be able to shed some light on the printing press/hand writing question.

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Sheridan wrote:
>
> Thanks, Kitsuno. I probably should not have quoted this thread as I wasn't
> asking about guns per se, but specifically gunpowder and the printing press
> and generally about the development of technology in Asia. By the time
> Japan adopted the use of flintlocks, the Chinese already had cannons,
> grenades, and significant development in the use of gunpowder. I do not see
> where any development of uses for gunpowder occurred until after the arrival
> of the Portuguese. More importantly, the arrival of the printing press
> appears to be equally disdained.. While the Chinese were printing books,
> Japan still preferred writing? I believe there are examples in textile
> production and architecture as well, where significant advances were not
> readily adopted. Just curious if there might be an explanation or just an
> oddity of history. I can't find similar examples in Western history. In the
> West, technology moves from country to country like wildfire, with everyone
> claiming they invented it..
>
> -d
>
> Ride wanted, off planet. Will share driving/expenses
>
> On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 9:37 PM, kitsuno <
> samurai-listowner@...> wrote:
> >
> > Two podcast episodes before the one you are responding to, we actually
> > cover this specific topic:
> > EP03 The History of Guns in Medieval Japan
> > http://samuraiarchives.podbean.com/2011/05/16/ep03-the-history-of-guns-in-medieval-japan/
> >
> > So, rather than reinvent the wheel here, I'd recommend a listen to the
> > above podcast, and then follow up with questions and we'll do our best to
> > answer them. But in a nutshell, yes, guns did arrive in Japan before the
> > 16th century from China/Korea - just not in sufficient numbers to build an
> > arsenal, or they were thought of as "curiosities" and not produced in Japan.
> >
> > --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Sheridan
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > The Chinese discovered gunpowder in the 9th century. Do I understand
> > > correctly that the Japanese did not acquire this technology until the mid
> > > 16th century with Portuguese guns? (The route would be from China to
> > Arabia
> > > to Europe and from there all the way back to Japan.. This is not at all
> > > intuitive.) Similarly, the Chinese had movable type and a crude printing
> > > press (via India) by the mid 11th c., the Koreans the same 3 centuries
> > later
> > > and apparently the Japanese even later than that. Given the geographical
> > > juxtaposition, the treaties, diplomatic missions, the trade, and
> > countless
> > > other factors, I am completely mystified that a technological advance by
> > one
> > > country would not be almost immediately adopted by the other two. I
> > demand
> > > an explanation. (But if that is impolite I meekly beg one.)
> > >
> > > -d
> > >
> > > Ride wanted, off planet. Will share driving/expenses
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]