how did samurai get their last name?

Did samurai get their names based on the castle they serviced? For example, Ueda castle. I have noticed when I visited Ogaki town there were a lot of Ueda families by that last name. I appreciate any info

Another thing to consider.

Let's say they've been in town for the past 400 years. That's about 20 generations worth of people. So think about how many offspring there must have been. In addition, Japanese until recently, were not a mobile society.

By the way, I went to school with some boys in my youth whose last name was ueda, and they lived in Monterey, California, USA.

----- Original Message -----
From: tamasaka
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2010 10:01 PM
Subject: [samuraihistory] how did samurai get their last name?



Did samurai get their names based on the castle they serviced? For example, Ueda castle. I have noticed when I visited Ogaki town there were a lot of Ueda families by that last name. I appreciate any info





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My wife's family name "Maeda" means in front of a rice field. They had this name since before anyone can remember. They weren't named for a castle, I guess the first one had a house in front of a rice field.

--- On Sun, 1/17/10, tamasaka <tamasaka@...> wrote:


From: tamasaka <tamasaka@...>
Subject: [samuraihistory] how did samurai get their last name?
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, January 17, 2010, 12:01 AM


 



Did samurai get their names based on the castle they serviced? For example, Ueda castle. I have noticed when I visited Ogaki town there were a lot of Ueda families by that last name. I appreciate any info











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

yea..most of these names go back too far for anyone to really remember why or how the name came into being.  The majority of the names, however, are based on a certain geographic location...such as a town or lake...etc.etc.
 
  Dont forget that these days, many non-samurai descendants use popular samurai names for last names.... so you need to know if that person's family is actually a historical samurai family...then ask them how their family got the name.
 
����

--- On Sun, 1/17/10, Mark Tovsen <betonarchese@...> wrote:


From: Mark Tovsen <betonarchese@...>
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] how did samurai get their last name?
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, January 17, 2010, 11:10 PM


 



My wife's family name "Maeda" means in front of a rice field. They had this name since before anyone can remember. They weren't named for a castle, I guess the first one had a house in front of a rice field.

--- On Sun, 1/17/10, tamasaka wrote:

From: tamasaka
Subject: [samuraihistory] how did samurai get their last name?
To: samuraihistory@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Sunday, January 17, 2010, 12:01 AM

 

Did samurai get their names based on the castle they serviced? For example, Ueda castle. I have noticed when I visited Ogaki town there were a lot of Ueda families by that last name. I appreciate any info

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In general, people were often named for the family job (Potter, Baker,
etc.) or for geographical locations or natural features, which seems to have
been largely the case in Japan. Following is a list compiled with the help
of several friends in Japan and a couple of baby naming books. Some
translations may be based on one reading of the kanji which is not universally
accepted, and if anyone on the forum spots any mistakes, I would appreciate
the corrections...


Family Names:
Arai — new well, wild well (depending on the kanji)
Fuji — famous Japanese volcano, wisteria (depending on the kanji)
Fujiwara — wisteria field
Fukushima — fortune island
Furuta — old rice paddy
Haruyuki — spring snow
Hasebe — long valley segment
Honda — book and rice paddy
Kenjiro — ???
Kimura — tree village
Kobayashi — small grove
Koizumi — little fountain
Matsumoto — old pine tree
Miyazaki — shrine on the cape
Mori — forest
Morita — rice paddy forest
Motohashi — old bridge
Musashi — warrior’s granary
Muto — lives close to the wisteria
Nakamura — inside the village
Nakazawa — in the middle of the swamp
Natsume — summer eyes
Negishi — root bank
Nishi — west
Ochiai — meeting point
Oizumi — big fountain
Okada — rice paddy hill
Osawa — big swamp
Ozeki — big checkpoint (based on Edo-period checkpoints which restricted
travel around Japan)
Sato — cultivates wisteria (one reading); comes from Sado area (another
possible reading)
Shimizu — pure water
Suzuki — jingling tree
Tahara — rice paddy field (implies a larger area than “rice paddy” by
itself)
Tajima — rice paddy island
Takahashi — high bridge
Toya — ???
Toyota — abundant rice paddy
Tsukagoshi — cross over the barrow mound
Watanabe — cross the border, cross the segment (depending on the kanji)
Yamada — mountain rice paddy Uchida — house near the rice paddy


Of course, it also depends upon what you mean by "last name" since family
names in Japanese come before the personal name. Then there are the
complications that samurai families often "adopted" sons to be their heirs if
they had none (or, occasionally, if they simply weren't happy with the ones
they had). And, of course, to confuse things further, many often received new
names upon their deaths, in keeping with Buddhist tradition.

Or, put another way, Japanese nomenclature is a strikingly complicated and
frequently confusing game.

For whatever that's worth, to you...

--RMB


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 4:09 AM, <tamasaka@...> wrote:

> Wow I appreciate this. Unfortunately, my parents has been doing genealogy for the past 55 yrs. My mother side is a historical samurai family that served under Tokugawa.  The bad part is the family did not see or maybe they did, but a family member forgot to pass on the history how the family became samurai & who the original daimyo they served under. I know my mother as a child remember seeing the family katana. This would have been helpful if her brother still had it. The katana would have given us a name who made the sword which then could be traced back what period they became samurai.
>

That doesn't quite work...

Swords break, swords are reforged, and each new generation would
technically need one (not that a poor family wouldn't pass along the
same one over and over because they couldn't afford anything else).
Swords would get passed down, but you can't be sure that the date of a
sword actually indicates when a family "became samurai"--it could be
much earlier or it could be much later.

I think you would have better luck finding what your mother's family
name was and where she grew up in Japan and start to trace back from
there in the Japanese records.

-Josh

On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 11:49 PM, <Cearb@...> wrote:

> In general, people were often named for the family job (Potter, Baker,
> etc.) or for geographical locations or natural features, which seems to have
> been largely the case in Japan.  Following is a list compiled with the help
> of several friends in Japan and a couple of baby naming books.  Some
> translations may be based on one reading of the kanji which is not universally
> accepted, and if anyone on the forum spots any mistakes, I would appreciate
> the corrections...

Can you give examples of people named for their job outside of the
early (pre-8th century) -be groups?

For anyone interested, Koop & Inada have a good work on reading names
(geared towards art collectors), and there is another onomastics work
titled "Name Construction in Medieval Japan" by Solveig Throndardottir
that has both a good overview of pre-1600 naming practices as well as
a very extensive listing of various names and name elements collected
by the author.

-Josh

On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 2:01 PM, <tamasaka@...> wrote:

> Thanks Josh! Been there & done that. Meaning my parents already been to Japan & checked out family records. They found records dating back to 1700. That is the furthest they got.  Unfortunately, many families did not tell there stories to future generation how the family became samurai. My mother's family is one of them.
> U also mentioned a lower class samurai would pass down their katana. My understanding it was a tradition to honor the family sword & if possible to pass down to the next son. Regardless of status. Anyone really know for sure which one is correct?
>

Here's what I know:

* There was a belief that the longer inanimate objects were kept, the
more likely they were to develop a soul of some sort (there is a great
Buddhist scroll about discarded items that have become animated
through this process). This was not necessarily desirable, mind you.

* Especially in the Edo period, people were big into the "filial
piety" aspects of Confucianism. That meant that they would be likely
to honor the items belonging to a revered ancestor.

* Practicality suggests that no bushi family went around with 1 sword
to their name. If you consider that each male adult in the family has
to have two swords for formal occasions, how would having a single
family sword work? Look at the Tokugawa house: There are MANY
Tokugawa family swords out there--there are quite a few that are
attributed to being used by Ieyasu himself. There are also many
branches of the family, so do you think a special sword was formed
every time a new branch was formed?

* Swords rust/break/etc. The family doesn't dissolve because
great-great-great-granfather's sword was lost in a fire. It is a
terrible loss, yes, but it isn't like it was irreplaceable.


The habit of passing down swords from father to son I can definitely
see (or father to daughter or son-in-law in some cases), and we know
that it happened. However, I don't know of an overarching tradition
of "the" family sword--that sounds like modern samurai romanticism.


-Josh

Actually, it was the Americans and not the Japanese who required the turning
in of all swords. This was done in 1946 under the auspices of the Supreme
Commander Allied Powers (SCAP) and was part of SCAP's Japanese
demilitarization efforts. Unfortunately, during the early stages of the
program SCAP did not have a good understanding of Japanese swords and as a
result many heirloom swords and historically significant swords went into
the melting pot.

Also note, that not all Japanese swords were samurai swords. Many Japanese
"family" swords were actually Imperial Japanese Army and Navy officer's
swords. The majority of these officers were not descended from samurai
families.

Robert

_____

From: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com [mailto:samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of tamasaka@...
Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2010 1:10 PM
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] how did samurai get their last name?




Wow I appreciate this. Unfortunately, my parents has been doing genealogy
for the past 55 yrs. My mother side is a historical samurai family that
served under Tokugawa. The bad part is the family did not see or maybe they
did, but a family member forgot to pass on the history how the family became
samurai & who the original daimyo they served under. I know my mother as a
child remember seeing the family katana. This would have been helpful if her
brother still had it. The katana would have given us a name who made the
sword which then could be traced back what period they became samurai.

During WW II the Japanese government told everyone to surrender all samurai
swords & other precious jewelry so the government could us it to purchase
raw materials from other countries. Japan as u may know did not have a lot
of raw materials to build there war machines.

My mother feels this is the reason they do not have the family katana. Her
brother only remembers a little history that was pasted down but do not
recall how they received the family name.

Steve thank u for this information. If in the future if something in this
line comes up could u plz send me an email.

Sincerely,
Shawn
Sent from my BlackBerryR smartphone with Nextel Direct Connect

-----Original Message-----
From: Steven Matsheshu yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 08:45:00
To:
yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] how did samurai get their last name?

yea..most of these names go back too far for anyone to really remember why
or how the name came into being. The majority of the names, however, are
based on a certain geographic location...such as a town or lake...etc.etc.

Dont forget that these days, many non-samurai descendants use popular
samurai names for last names.... so you need to know if that person's family
is actually a historical samurai family...then ask them how their family got
the name.



--- On Sun, 1/17/10, Mark Tovsen yahoo.com> wrote:


From: Mark Tovsen
yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] how did samurai get their last name?
To: samuraihistory@
yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, January 17, 2010, 11:10 PM






My wife's family name "Maeda" means in front of a rice field. They had this
name since before anyone can remember. They weren't named for a castle, I
guess the first one had a house in front of a rice field.

--- On Sun, 1/17/10, tamasaka wrote:

From: tamasaka
Subject: [samuraihistory] how did samurai get their last name?
To: samuraihistory@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Sunday, January 17, 2010, 12:01 AM



Did samurai get their names based on the castle they serviced? For example,
Ueda castle. I have noticed when I visited Ogaki town there were a lot of
Ueda families by that last name. I appreciate any info

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In addition to all the considerations already mentioned, even though your family kept a particular sword as a family heir-loom, it would be unlikely to give you any reliable information about your family history. Perhaps the sword was given to your family when they became samurai, but it was already 100 years old at that time. Or perhaps 200 years after becoming a samurai family, the original sword broke and a new sword was made to replace it. It would be nice to have the sword as an heir-loom, but it would not have been reliable for finding out anything about your family history.

----- Original Message -----
From: JL Badgley
Date: Monday, January 25, 2010 1:18 am
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] how did samurai get their last name?
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com

> On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 2:01 PM, wrote:
> > Thanks Josh! Been there & done that. Meaning my parents
> already been to Japan & checked out family records. They found
> records dating back to 1700. That is the furthest they got.
> Unfortunately, many families did not tell there stories to
> future generation how the family became samurai. My mother's
> family is one of them.
> > U also mentioned a lower class samurai would pass down their
> katana. My understanding it was a tradition to honor the family
> sword & if possible to pass down to the next son. Regardless of
> status. Anyone really know for sure which one is correct?
> >
> Here's what I know:
>
> * There was a belief that the longer inanimate objects were
> kept, the
> more likely they were to develop a soul of some sort (there is a great
> Buddhist scroll about discarded items that have become animated
> through this process). This was not necessarily desirable,
> mind you.
>
> * Especially in the Edo period, people were big into the "filial
> piety" aspects of Confucianism. That meant that they would
> be likely
> to honor the items belonging to a revered ancestor.
>
> * Practicality suggests that no bushi family went around with 1 sword
> to their name. If you consider that each male adult in the
> family has
> to have two swords for formal occasions, how would having a single
> family sword work? Look at the Tokugawa house: There
> are MANY
> Tokugawa family swords out there--there are quite a few that are
> attributed to being used by Ieyasu himself. There are also many
> branches of the family, so do you think a special sword was formed
> every time a new branch was formed?
>
> * Swords rust/break/etc. The family doesn't dissolve because
> great-great-great-granfather's sword was lost in a fire.
> It is a
> terrible loss, yes, but it isn't like it was irreplaceable.
>
>
> The habit of passing down swords from father to son I can definitely
> see (or father to daughter or son-in-law in some cases), and we know
> that it happened. However, I don't know of an overarching
> traditionof "the" family sword--that sounds like modern samurai
> romanticism.
>
> -Josh
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> ---
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> ---
>
> Join the 2007 Samurai Fiction Contest: http://www.samurai-
> archives.com/writcon2.htmlYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes, this topic of the sword is interesting.. I know that my relatives are samurai... have the history mapped out with names, locations, dates, births, deaths,etc.etc.. going back well before the Genpei war.. (with a few breaks or "murky" patches here and there)... but a trail that goes back none-the-less...
 
 .. and through all of that... There is not a single "sword" or "spear" that has ever been mentioned or been of any importance that I have ever heard of.
 
���� I think the "sword" needs to be dropped and you need to focus on the actual history of the actual human beings who make-- who ARE -- the family/clan .
 
   A sword.. a bow.. a spear... a rifle...   those are just tools.. They really have nothing to do with the actual essence of the bushi families.  Hell, we have many relatives who used ladders and saws more than they ever used a sword --- should we hand down a ladder or a saw and consider it sacred  ?  No.. it was just a tool.  What is sacred is my ancestor himself--- his efforts and his actions... I care about the family history because of what the PEOPLE did.  Family graves are more important.���
 
������������  Focus on the history. Start by mapping out every known relative and get their birth and death dates, along with what they "did" . Find out where your family graves are located and go pay respect.
 
�������������������� This will yield much more profound insights than a piece of sharpened metal with a handle.
 
������������  




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think that people have lost the true meaning behind the heirloom swords: even with a shinto outlook that the sword itself has a soul, the sword is definitely not the focal point of the family.  But at the same time, it is not right to totally dismiss the sword: it's importance is that it is hard to really have direct contact with ones ancestors, so the sword is a physical thing that someone can hold and feel close to their forefathers. So, it is rather a symbol that promotes ones ancestors rather than replace them.

--- On Tue, 2/9/10, Steven Matsheshu <steven_matsheshu@...> wrote:


From: Steven Matsheshu <steven_matsheshu@...>
Subject: RE: [samuraihistory] how did samurai get their last name?
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, February 9, 2010, 3:46 PM


 



Yes, this topic of the sword is interesting. . I know that my relatives are samurai... have the history mapped out with names, locations, dates, births, deaths,etc.etc. . going back well before the Genpei war.. (with a few breaks or "murky" patches here and there)... but a trail that goes back none-the-less. ..
 
 .. and through all of that... There is not a single "sword" or "spear" that has ever been mentioned or been of any importance that I have ever heard of.
 
���� I think the "sword" needs to be dropped and you need to focus on the actual history of the actual human beings who make-- who ARE -- the family/clan .
 
   A sword.. a bow.. a spear... a rifle...   those are just tools.. They really have nothing to do with the actual essence of the bushi families.  Hell, we have many relatives who used ladders and saws more than they ever used a sword --- should we hand down a ladder or a saw and consider it sacred  ?  No.. it was just a tool.  What is sacred is my ancestor himself--- his efforts and his actions... I care about the family history because of what the PEOPLE did.  Family graves are more important.���
 
������������  Focus on the history. Start by mapping out every known relative and get their birth and death dates, along with what they "did" . Find out where your family graves are located and go pay respect.
 
�������������������� This will yield much more profound insights than a piece of sharpened metal with a handle.
 
������������  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes, I think this is a fair statement... but it is not just the sword. It is anything that has been handed down which represents the history and the lives of one's ancestors. For my family, this is mostly texts and charts--- knowledge itself. Why? Because the tools and devices break and decay with time-- but the knowledge to build them is what is can really survive the ages.  For example, my family still locksmiths based on texts and traditions that have passed down for 400 something years. We have no ancient locks or keys, but the texts are considered sacred/important.  We also still shoot bow and arrow, but we don't have any arrows or bows we hold sacred--- what we hold "sacred" is the ideology of HOW we shoot and particular techinques.   Thus, our "heirloom" is specific knowledge of specific techinques... not an actual item.
 
  I suppose each family has its own "heirlooms", but we must understand that not all samurai family's use a sword as this "heirloom"--- but that as sword CAN be an heirloom -- but that it is only special because of the people who have possessed it, and not something about the sword itself.
 Some families have swords that were presented to them by a very high person.. and this is important. But again, not because of the sword itself, but because of the event it represents.
   So.. it depends on the family as to what "thing" is passed down and considered sacred and important.
���������
����� I guess my point is that I would like for people to understand that bushi is about actual human lives and not physical objects.

--- On Tue, 2/9/10, Takezo Getsu <getsutakezo@...> wrote:


From: Takezo Getsu <getsutakezo@...>
Subject: RE: [samuraihistory] how did samurai get their last name?
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, February 9, 2010, 11:50 PM


 



I think that people have lost the true meaning behind the heirloom swords: even with a shinto outlook that the sword itself has a soul, the sword is definitely not the focal point of the family.  But at the same time, it is not right to totally dismiss the sword: it's importance is that it is hard to really have direct contact with ones ancestors, so the sword is a physical thing that someone can hold and feel close to their forefathers. So, it is rather a symbol that promotes ones ancestors rather than replace them.

--- On Tue, 2/9/10, Steven Matsheshu wrote:

From: Steven Matsheshu
Subject: RE: [samuraihistory] how did samurai get their last name?
To: samuraihistory@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, February 9, 2010, 3:46 PM

 

Yes, this topic of the sword is interesting. . I know that my relatives are samurai... have the history mapped out with names, locations, dates, births, deaths,etc.etc. . going back well before the Genpei war.. (with a few breaks or "murky" patches here and there)... but a trail that goes back none-the-less. ..
 
 .. and through all of that... There is not a single "sword" or "spear" that has ever been mentioned or been of any importance that I have ever heard of.
 
���� I think the "sword" needs to be dropped and you need to focus on the actual history of the actual human beings who make-- who ARE -- the family/clan .
 
   A sword.. a bow.. a spear... a rifle...   those are just tools.. They really have nothing to do with the actual essence of the bushi families.  Hell, we have many relatives who used ladders and saws more than they ever used a sword --- should we hand down a ladder or a saw and consider it sacred  ?  No.. it was just a tool.  What is sacred is my ancestor himself--- his efforts and his actions... I care about the family history because of what the PEOPLE did.  Family graves are more important.���
 
������������� Focus on the history. Start by mapping out every known relative and get their birth and death dates, along with what they "did" . Find out where your family graves are located and go pay respect.
 
��������   ��������� This will yield much more profound insights than a piece of sharpened metal with a handle.
 
   ���������  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Usually not, in the history I am aware of. It is, as I think was said in someone's earlier email, very possible for a family to be named after a region... or a particular landform... but after a castle? I myself cannot think of any instances of this (although, there may be -some- throughout history)..
Usually, the name is a location or an alteration to a previous name. For example, many names have "Fuji-" or "-to-" (wisteria) in them can often be traced back to Fujiwara.. thus the wisteria in the name refers to their descent from the Fujiwara. (Note : Most people with the name "Fujiwara" these days are actually non-samurai who took the name in the Meiji era.) However, the majority of clans descended from the Fujiwara, Genji, and Heishi usually are named after the region or landform where their branch branched off.
Both of the lineages of the japanese side of my family are descended from Fujiwara, and one of them also as a Genji connection (like almost any other bushi family right? hahaha).
One of them contains the "Fuji-", so you could guess its descent. The other name.. you would have no idea that it came from Fujiwara or Genji based on the name by itself.
So again--- it is almost always the name of a location or a landform.


Tamasaka, you are right. I don't know who you are and if my letter sounded offensive, I apologize. My intention is to provided my opinion, which is to focus on the history (geneology, graves, family ideology) and not on objects such as swords. While these objects are nice to have, they are nice solely because they were once used by your ancestors.

We often forget to view history as "People first" and rather as a "objects first" approach. Some Archeologist follow this approach, but I strongly disagree with it. I woudl advise that you keep your family history as something living, not behind glass.

That is what I am trying to say.

Tip : Samurai families tend to get bigger or smaller with time... BUT they almost always tend to SPREAD OUT WITH TIME... So, if you know your name and history into the mid 1700s... then just jump back in history to find that name and you may be able to connect the dots eventually. The idea is that they started in small radius around eachother and spread out over time.... going back in time means they will be less spread around... does this make sense ? Families WILL move over time, so don't believe you are looking for a single location throughout time.
Try to focus on the MAIN family first and then focus on branch families second. You will understand the history better this way.

--- On Wed, 2/10/10, tamasaka@... <tamasaka@...> wrote:

> From: tamasaka@... <tamasaka@...>
> Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] how did samurai get their last name?
> To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wednesday, February 10, 2010, 2:46 PM
> Wow Steve u sound up set! Well u do
> not know who I am nor do u know what my folks have
> accomplished for our genealogy. My folks already mapped out
> the genealogy tree as far as 1721. So I know where my
> family/Clan comes from but its hard to know when the family
> became samurai since the history was never pasted on due to
> a lack of interest or as my folks found out humbug. It was
> my mother that generated the interest to her older brother
> who later remembered stories their Grand father told him.
> Later disclosed this information to his sister, my mother.
> Any way it is always GREAT to have something tangible in
> hand besides the genealogy & photos. I would have to
> agree with Takezo. 
>
> Any way my interest was to see if any one knew if a samurai
> that served under a daimyo in a castle was named by the
> castle. For example, if a samurai served @ Ueda Castle his
> name was given Ueda. So if this samurai was called Takeshi
> he will than be called Ueda Takeshi. So any one know for
> sure out there!?!
> Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with Nextel Direct
> Connect
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steven Matsheshu <steven_matsheshu@...>
> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 07:46:41
> To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [samuraihistory] how did samurai get their
> last name?
>
> Yes, this topic of the sword is interesting.. I know that
> my relatives are samurai... have the history mapped out with
> names, locations, dates, births, deaths,etc.etc.. going back
> well before the Genpei war.. (with a few breaks or "murky"
> patches here and there)... but a trail that goes back
> none-the-less...
>  
>  .. and through all of that... There is not a single
> "sword" or "spear" that has ever been mentioned or been of
> any importance that I have ever heard of.
>  
> ���� I think the "sword" needs to be dropped and you
> need to focus on the actual history of the actual human
> beings who make-- who ARE -- the family/clan .
>  
>    A sword.. a bow.. a spear... a rifle...   those are
> just tools.. They really have nothing to do with the actual
> essence of the bushi families.  Hell, we have many
> relatives who used ladders and saws more than they ever used
> a sword --- should we hand down a ladder or a saw and
> consider it sacred  ?  No.. it was just a tool.  What is
> sacred is my ancestor himself--- his efforts and his
> actions... I care about the family history because of what
> the PEOPLE did.  Family graves are more important.���
>  
> ������������  Focus on the history. Start by
> mapping out every known relative and get their birth and
> death dates, along with what they "did" . Find out where
> your family graves are located and go pay respect.
>  
> �������������������� This will yield
> much more profound insights than a piece of sharpened metal
> with a handle.
>  
> ������������  
>
>
>      
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> ---
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com

> Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives

> ---
>
> Join the 2007 Samurai Fiction Contest: http://www.samurai-archives.com/writcon2.htmlYahoo!
> Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> ---
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> ---
>
> Join the 2007 Samurai Fiction Contest: http://www.samurai-archives.com/writcon2.htmlYahoo!
> Groups Links
>
>
>     samuraihistory-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>

Of course, given the tradition of families without sons "adopting" sons
from other families so as to continue the family name, even continuity of that
name doesn't guarantee genetic relationships.

--RMB


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 6:23 AM, Steven Matsheshu <
steven_matsheshu@...> wrote:

> We often forget to view history as "People first" and rather as a
> "objects first" approach.
>

I'm reading The Taiheiki. What strikes me as I read what you guys are
talking about is that in this book, it's all about your name. Your name,
your family is the primary thing. Next comes banners and emblems, which
display family type things. Next comes the heirloom swords and forged
objects. Which are highly prized but are definitely objects not closely
related to the identity of the individual or family. Although someone may
wield a famous and named object and describe the object in detail, it's the
same thing to me as saying Wild Bill Hickock used a Winchester36 with a
pearl handle. People remember Wild Bill. The gun not so much. At least
that's the way I read The Taiheiki.

Previously almost all my sense of Japanese samurai culture came from samurai
films. And I did get the impression that objects such as swords were
revered like some religions impart all this spiritual stuff to certain
objects. But now that I'm reading the actual history, I"m getting a much
better picture. It was who you are and what your reputation is, who your
family is, where you are from, and who you are connected to. In that order.
Everything else appears to be a distant second. At least that's what I'm
understanding from what I'm reading.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

But genetic relationships don't mean nearly anything compared to the continuation of the family/name.  My family has numerous adoptions, and they make no difference whatsoever in the descent.  The survival of the clan/name outweighs any sense of genetic descent.  Even on lineage charts, those adopted ones appear just as if they were blood .. sometimes there may be a small footnote... sometimes not.

--- On Fri, 2/12/10, Cearb@... <Cearb@...> wrote:


From: Cearb@... <Cearb@...>
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] how did samurai get their last name?
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, February 12, 2010, 12:41 AM


 



Of course, given the tradition of families without sons "adopting" sons
from other families so as to continue the family name, even continuity of that
name doesn't guarantee genetic relationships.

--RMB

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 2/12/2010 10:38:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,
steven_matsheshu@... writes:

But genetic relationships don't mean nearly anything compared to the
continuation of the family/name. My family has numerous adoptions, and they
make no difference whatsoever in the descent. The survival of the clan/name
outweighs any sense of genetic descent. Even on lineage charts, those
adopted ones appear just as if they were blood .. sometimes there may be a
small footnote... sometimes not.


An excellent point, and I didn't mean to suggest that adoptions were
somehow less valid as familial relationships. My point was only that if you
mean to trace your genetic ancestry -- which can sometimes be informative as
to medical history, for example -- you might get hung up by that tradition.
Obviously adoption was seen as a fully legitimate means by which to pass
on the family name, otherwise it wouldn't have been such a common practice.

As to heirlooms and swords... Various writers do talk about the sword as
being an extension of a samurai's soul, and certainly the idea that swords
have spirits would be completely in keeping with Shinto beliefs, in which
everything has a kami spirit. And no doubt there were families who passed
along swords along with other family treasures, just as families will pass
down jewelry. And while I'm sure that a family's identity wasn't exactly
dependant upon keeping "the family sword", it IS worth noting that a sword is
among the sacred objects of the Japanese Imperial Regalia.

--RMB


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes, but Kusunagi is gone. You can believe the myth that the sword survived.. but that sword is long gone. Just like the Northern Imperial line is a pretender to the throne, so is that alleged sword probably just a replica. But-- aside from whether the sword still exist or not --- the sword was/is not sacred because it is a sword-- but because of what that sword represents.
 Don't forget--- at the time Kusunagi became sacred.. the sword was not yet "the soul of the samuraI"---- that position was still being filled by the Bow and Arrow (remember, this sword was made and already a "Sacred" object by the 700s).
 
  Because of the dates of the sword, I would highly suggest that it is sacred because it was found inside Orochi... But it was often blamed for causing Illness, so it wasn't wielded anymore, just kept in a shrine.
���
  If Susano had found a knife or spear in Orochi, then THAT weapon would have been the piece of the Imperial Regalia.
 
������� Again, it is not that it is a SWORD.. it is WHAT it represents, which is courage, valor, bravery, etc.etc...
 
 But, more than that .. here is why the sword is sacred :
 
����������� The sword is sacred because it was the gift given to Amaterasu by Susano in apology.
 
   It is sacred because it REPRESENTS Susano's apology. A bow or spear would have worked equally.  *Also, it is safe to say that Kusunagi WAS NOT a "katana"... but more of a chinese/korean straight sword, I think*
 
��� The Imperial Regalia is sacred because they are directly related to bringing Amaterasu BACK from hiding...
 
  Again, it is not the object itself, but what it represents.
 
����   ��� SOME shinto followers MAY believe these objects possess souls, but many Bushi families and their descendents (such as my family) are strict Buddhist, and as such, we don't place much concern on Shinto beliefs as much as someone who are non-Buddhas and shinto.. So the "religious orientation" of the clan/family must be taken into account as well.
 
����  ��� O.k..that was kind of long, and I apologize. But my point is that Kusunagi could have been anything..
 
 * Some have theorized that Orochi was actually a human warrior (or band of warriors) and that when Susano killed them all, he took the sword from their dead captain. Later on, this band of warriors would be mythologized into a single entity, a snake headed monster. etc.etc.etc... In that case... if the leader would have had a spear, then Susano would have presented the spear to Amaterasu..etc.etc.*
 
 ��� Point is, the sword was not yet "the soul of the samurai".. and thus, we cannot assume its inclusion into the Imperial Regalia for such a reason.
 
  ���
 

--- On Sat, 2/13/10, Cearb@... <Cearb@...> wrote:


From: Cearb@... <Cearb@...>
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] how did samurai get their last name?
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, February 13, 2010, 10:39 AM


 




In a message dated 2/12/2010 10:38:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,
steven_matsheshu@ yahoo.com writes:

But genetic relationships don't mean nearly anything compared to the
continuation of the family/name. My family has numerous adoptions, and they
make no difference whatsoever in the descent. The survival of the clan/name
outweighs any sense of genetic descent. Even on lineage charts, those
adopted ones appear just as if they were blood .. sometimes there may be a
small footnote... sometimes not.

An excellent point, and I didn't mean to suggest that adoptions were
somehow less valid as familial relationships. My point was only that if you
mean to trace your genetic ancestry -- which can sometimes be informative as
to medical history, for example -- you might get hung up by that tradition.
Obviously adoption was seen as a fully legitimate means by which to pass
on the family name, otherwise it wouldn't have been such a common practice.

As to heirlooms and swords... Various writers do talk about the sword as
being an extension of a samurai's soul, and certainly the idea that swords
have spirits would be completely in keeping with Shinto beliefs, in which
everything has a kami spirit. And no doubt there were families who passed
along swords along with other family treasures, just as families will pass
down jewelry. And while I'm sure that a family's identity wasn't exactly
dependant upon keeping "the family sword", it IS worth noting that a sword is
among the sacred objects of the Japanese Imperial Regalia.

--RMB

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

With respect, you missed my point: the fact that the imperial regalia COULD
have consisted of anything but that the myths "opted" (as it were) to
include a sword (or, more precisely, two swords, the second supposedly
replacing the first which was supposedly lost at the battle of Dan No Ura (and, as
you suggested, poossibly a later replica as well)) suggests that the sword
has something of a special place in the greater Japanese consciousness.
NOT that I mean to overestimate that importance, mind you, I'm simply
suggesting that it is worth noting. (In fact, swords seem to appear more
frequently in various mythologies than other weapons, but perhaps that's because
they were common to many cultures.)

You also make it sound as if Buddhism and Shinto are mutually exclusive,
but if that were true, it seems unlikely that so many Buddhist temples
throughout Japan would include Shinto shrines somewhere on their grounds. It
seems to me -- from both study and personal experience -- that Shinto is as
deeply ingrained in the national character as Conficianism is in the Chinese
culture. I'm saying this not only based on texts by both foreigners and
Japanese, but on the simple basis of how ubiquitous Shinto symbolism is
throughout the country.

On another matter... Speaking of the northern Imperial line, can you (or
anyone on the forum) tell me who, if any of them, might still have clung to
their claim to the throne around 1500? I know that in theory that line had
been "reabsorbed" into the southern line, but I can't help thinking there
must have been holdouts...

Any help?

--RMB


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It could also be said that non-samurai descendents can be partially to blame for the "sword is the samurai" ideology--- the theory puts forth the idea that  non-samurai could never dream of being samurai if they told stories that matched reality--- that is, stories where the main character is important simply becaue of the family he comes from (Class system based importance).... and thus, in order to make a peasant boy become someone important, they had to be able to ACQUIRE something ... such as a special tool or special weapon. Thus, by telling stories of "special swords" which could turn you --just by possessing it--- into some kind of bushi .... this allowed the fantasies of "non-bushi becoming bushi" to flower.
 
�����It is basically the "Sword in the Stone" thing again--- young boy who is a nobody becomming somebody because a special sword proves he is somebody... it is basically a peasant's fantasy...
 
��������� Also.. it should be noted that if the "sword is soul of the samurai"... as is also mostly a non-bushi fantasy --- then why were so many historic bushi wielders of spears, chain weapons, bow and arrow, rifles, staffs, etc.etc. ?   The sword only became "the soul" in the last couple hundred years... but for the majority of the bushi history, the weapon of the samurai was never the soul.. his DUTY was his soul.
 
����� Again, I highly advise and ask that this "sword worshiping" misunderstanding be carefully re-evaluated.  There is no history to support it... it is just fantasy story-telling.
 
�����������������

--- On Fri, 2/12/10, Dennis Sheridan <ldsheridan@...> wrote:


From: Dennis Sheridan <ldsheridan@...>
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] how did samurai get their last name?
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, February 12, 2010, 1:10 PM


 



On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 6:23 AM, Steven Matsheshu <
steven_matsheshu@ yahoo.com> wrote:

> We often forget to view history as "People first" and rather as a
> "objects first" approach.
>

I'm reading The Taiheiki. What strikes me as I read what you guys are
talking about is that in this book, it's all about your name. Your name,
your family is the primary thing. Next comes banners and emblems, which
display family type things. Next comes the heirloom swords and forged
objects. Which are highly prized but are definitely objects not closely
related to the identity of the individual or family. Although someone may
wield a famous and named object and describe the object in detail, it's the
same thing to me as saying Wild Bill Hickock used a Winchester36 with a
pearl handle. People remember Wild Bill. The gun not so much. At least
that's the way I read The Taiheiki.

Previously almost all my sense of Japanese samurai culture came from samurai
films. And I did get the impression that objects such as swords were
revered like some religions impart all this spiritual stuff to certain
objects. But now that I'm reading the actual history, I"m getting a much
better picture. It was who you are and what your reputation is, who your
family is, where you are from, and who you are connected to. In that order.
Everything else appears to be a distant second. At least that's what I'm
understanding from what I'm reading.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Do you mean that the otherway around, that the Southern Court was the one holding out? The Northern Court (the imposters) were the ones who "won" and continued into the present day... the Southern Court (the real court) was the court that allegedly disappeared. YES, we do know that the two courts allegedly merged back into one, however... the truth is that the southern line was not given the authority... The 101st Emperor was Shoko, who was the NORTHERN LINE son of of Go-Komatsu... this means that the pretender Northern court actually never really did disappeared. The Imperial line is thus still a pretender line.
 
 However, many families to this day still maintain a "Southern Court Loyalty" (such as my family)  and ... even if only in philosophy, still maintain a "hold out" ideology.   There is a little town called Ichinomiya  in north-west Aichi prefecture which used to a haven for southern court princes and southern court loyalists (and if you are still interested, many of the supporters held land in Kawachi as well as in Owari). During WW2, one branch of the Southern Court descendents tried to lay claim to their rightful place, and while the imposter Northern Court acknowledged their claim as authentic and issued a statement as such, they refused (of course) to ceed the throne to them.
 
  I hope that answered your question.
 
������� In terms of the sword.. I agree that the sword happens to be the "weapon" of choice for most cultures.. and I sent out a post addressing the "peasant fantasy" on that topic... so I won't post it again.. (no need to send the same post twice eh?)
���
 �������
 

--- On Sun, 2/14/10, Cearb@... <Cearb@...> wrote:


From: Cearb@... <Cearb@...>
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] how did samurai get their last name?
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, February 14, 2010, 11:45 PM


 



With respect, you missed my point: the fact that the imperial regalia COULD
have consisted of anything but that the myths "opted" (as it were) to
include a sword (or, more precisely, two swords, the second supposedly
replacing the first which was supposedly lost at the battle of Dan No Ura (and, as
you suggested, poossibly a later replica as well)) suggests that the sword
has something of a special place in the greater Japanese consciousness.
NOT that I mean to overestimate that importance, mind you, I'm simply
suggesting that it is worth noting. (In fact, swords seem to appear more
frequently in various mythologies than other weapons, but perhaps that's because
they were common to many cultures.)

You also make it sound as if Buddhism and Shinto are mutually exclusive,
but if that were true, it seems unlikely that so many Buddhist temples
throughout Japan would include Shinto shrines somewhere on their grounds. It
seems to me -- from both study and personal experience -- that Shinto is as
deeply ingrained in the national character as Conficianism is in the Chinese
culture. I'm saying this not only based on texts by both foreigners and
Japanese, but on the simple basis of how ubiquitous Shinto symbolism is
throughout the country.

On another matter... Speaking of the northern Imperial line, can you (or
anyone on the forum) tell me who, if any of them, might still have clung to
their claim to the throne around 1500? I know that in theory that line had
been "reabsorbed" into the southern line, but I can't help thinking there
must have been holdouts...

Any help?

--RMB

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Guys, Steven and Cearb,

Let me tell you something about Sinto and, Buddism.

As to Sinto, maybe you already know but, it is regarded of the God believed by ancient Japanese which you can see from IZANAGINO MIKOTO as man God as the original God made his sons , grand sons, grand,grand,---- with his spose Female God named IZAMINNO MIKOTO , quite a long time ago.
One of their grand children gods was AMATERAS OMIKAMI , the God of Sun , who once hidden in the cave for some reasons and because of that , all Japan became completely dark . Then, Japanese people , ancestors of present Japanese , opened big party with funny dances, singing as well at that
time. She came out from the cave because she liked to see that party and Japanese people got a lot of sunshine finally.

One of their desendants , was belived as the first Emperor , named JINM TENNOR, ( Emperor JINM ) . He succeeded consective Emperors , resulting the current Emperor AKIHITO as the 125th ones. These kinds of story, myths, were written in the below mentioned KOJIKI , and NIHON SHOKI.

KOJIKI , and NIHON SHOKI ,both are the books written firstly and completed in AC 712, AC 720 respectively by some Japanese author abide by the order of Emperor TENMU in order to show the myths talked from mouth to mouth since the birth of Japanese race in the book style using real
KANJI transferred from China via Korea.

I think only a few , present Japanese , belive the above story.
In my case, I understand as ancestors of Japanese including the leaders of BUSHI , like MINAMOTO YORITOMO, TAIRA KIYOMORI, ASHIKAGA 's, ODA, even TOKUGAWA believed these myths . That's why Japanese Emperors can succeed Emperism untill now since BUSHI tookover the government from
Emperor rein . I don' believe Emperors came out before JINTOKU existed really.

As you realize now by this explanation, SINTO is a kind of religion of Japanese related to Japanese made old Gods.

That is totally different religion from BUDDHISM which was imported from China , initiated in INDIA. BUDDA created his ism , God , named OSHAKA-sama, or AMIDA NYORAI.

SINTO is for Japanese only, but BUDDHISM is for every races , all over the world.

I , myself, don't belive Ehova, Christ, ISLAM, BUDDHISM, SINTO. However, I can feel sacred things whenever I face to Sun Rising early in the morning and I look up full of Stars spread in sky high without clouds in the night .

Which means, I and my old , old ancestors who belived SINTO look like same , identical.

Eddie Hiramoto
Steven Matsheshu <steven_matsheshu@...> wrote:
Do you mean that the otherway around, that the Southern Court was the one holding out? The Northern Court (the imposters) were the ones who "won" and continued into the present day... the Southern Court (the real court) was the court that allegedly disappeared. YES, we do know that the
two courts allegedly merged back into one, however...��the truth is that the southern line��was not given the authority... The��101st��Emperor was Shoko, who was��the NORTHERN LINE son of��of Go-Komatsu... this
means that the pretender Northern court actually never really did disappeared. The Imperial line is thus still a pretender line.
��
��However, many families to this day still maintain a "Southern Court Loyalty" (such as my family)�� and ... even if only in philosophy, still maintain a "hold out" ideology.���� There is a little town called Ichinomiya�� in
north-west Aichi prefecture which used to a haven for southern court princes and southern court loyalists (and if you are still interested, many of the supporters held land in Kawachi as well as in Owari). During WW2, one branch of the Southern Court descendents tried to lay claim to their
rightful place, and while the imposter Northern Court acknowledged their claim as authentic and issued a statement as such, they refused (of course) to ceed the throne to them.
��
�� I hope that answered your question.
��
�������������� In terms of the sword.. I agree that the sword happens to be the "weapon" of choice for most cultures.. and I sent out a post addressing the "peasant fantasy" on that topic... so I
won't post it again.. (no need to send the same post twice eh?)
������
����������������
��

--- On Sun, 2/14/10, Cearb@... <Cearb@...> wrote:

From: Cearb@... <Cearb@...>
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] how did samurai get their last name?
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, February 14, 2010, 11:45 PM

��

With respect, you missed my point: the fact that the imperial regalia COULD
have consisted of anything but that the myths "opted" (as it were) to
include a sword (or, more precisely, two swords, the second supposedly
replacing the first which was supposedly lost at the battle of Dan No Ura (and, as
you suggested, poossibly a later replica as well)) suggests that the sword
has something of a special place in the greater Japanese consciousness.
NOT that I mean to overestimate that importance, mind you, I'm simply
suggesting that it is worth noting. (In fact, swords seem to appear more
frequently in various mythologies than other weapons, but perhaps that's because
they were common to many cultures.)

You also make it sound as if Buddhism and Shinto are mutually exclusive,
but if that were true, it seems unlikely that so many Buddhist temples
throughout Japan would include Shinto shrines somewhere on their grounds. It
seems to me -- from both study and personal experience -- that Shinto is as
deeply ingrained in the national character as Conficianism is in the Chinese
culture. I'm saying this not only based on texts by both foreigners and
Japanese, but on the simple basis of how ubiquitous Shinto symbolism is
throughout the country.

On another matter... Speaking of the northern Imperial line, can you (or
anyone on the forum) tell me who, if any of them, might still have clung to
their claim to the throne around 1500? I know that in theory that line had
been "reabsorbed" into the southern line, but I can't help thinking there
must have been holdouts...

Any help?

--RMB

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








---------------------------------
VANCOUVER 2010 Olympic News [Yahoo! Sports/sportsnavi]


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Steven--

Your information was quite enlightening, but what I'm really looking for is
any name (individual, Daimyo or other major or even reasonably powerful
figure) specifically associated with a southern court claimant to the throne
shortly after the Onin war, say circa 1495... It doesn't have to be the
would-be emperor himself, just someone with a vested interest in seeing a
southern emperor returned to the throne.

Thanks for your assistance!

--RMB


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well, the most immediate one that comes to mind are the Kumazawa.  That was the family that attempted to peacefully reinstate themselves during WW2.  That family is authorized and legitimized as being valid heirs of the southern court.
 As for supporters ?  Most of the supporters would go on to serve the Hatakeyama officially, but held a "the south will rise again" mentality, even to the point of supporting and in some cases, intermarrying with legit southern court bloodlines. And then, as we all know, all of these families would eventually end up serving Oda and Toyotomi in some capacity..etc.etc.
   I guess the most documented families that you could probably easily look up online would be the Miyake, Nojiri, Yasumi,Iba, Kusunoki, Momonoi, Kawami, Kumazawa, Kodzuki,etc.etc... however, it MUST be noted that many of these families have branches that are southern hold-outs, and branches that are not. For example.. not ALL Iba are southern-holdouts... not all Kodzuki (Kotsuki) are southern hold-outs..etc.etc. The Kawachi area aroudn Osaka seems to have produced the most hold-outs.
��� If you had to pick some that seem to be almost entirely southern hold-outs, and that are WELL documented as being southern-hold outs... you would have to go with the Yasumi and Nojiri. Both served the Kusunoki and Momonoi southern factions, and both continued to assist the southern court descendents after the war was over. You would think that because of their power-based in Kawachi , that the Yuza family would also be involved, but this does not seem to be the case. In fact, when the Yuza were planning on overthrowing Lord Hatakeyama in the late 1560s, Yasumi and Nojiri families turned on them and helped bring Oda Nobunaga into the area.  Some have theorized that the Yasumi and Nojiri did this because the Southern Heirs were located just outside of Nagoya, and they needed to ensure safety of them from Oda. Having turned against the Hayakeyama AND the Yuza, and assisting Oda Nobunaga in entering Kawachi and marching on Kyoto, they secured their
Owari holdings and the southern heirs. It is also believed that Oda Nobunaga was still weary of the Nojiri (why is all theories, not real evidence.. some believe they were too strong or too rich,etc.etc.) so he seized their Iimori holdings and left them only with their Nagoya holdings, but this was "fine" because they still maintained some land, castles, and the ability to continue their duties. However, the Yasumi would eventually fade away due to old rivalries causing too much damage to the clan. The Nojiri would continue one, serving Oda forces as high ranking bowmen and as spies. The spying would take a more prominent role as Toyotomi rose to power.  Eventually, they would be serving ONLY as spies (such as Nojiri Narimasa who served as Fukushima Masanori's chief spy), with a few exceptions of course.  I suppose it should be noted that the Kumazawa family served Fukushima Masanori... and so because we see Kumazawa working for Fukushima... and
Nojiri serving as his top spies... we MIGHT be able to assume that Fukushima Masanori was a pro-south daimyo... that OR they were running it behind his back... I have found no supporting evidence either way.
 ��� So...were to look for them ? Well - in short- they used to run the Iimori area of Kawachi and the Hibitsu area of Nagoya.  However, to put a long story short, they did not weather the late 1500s well and the Yasumi have practically faded away and the Nojiri ended up working as spies for the Fukushima, Nakagawa, and Hachisuka. Those two families are the easiest to confirm as being southern supporters (besides the Kumazawa who ARE legit heirs to the southern court).
 
  Some of these families have continued to this day... and out of those, -SOME- of them have maintained a Pro-South ideology... and -SOME- have not. You would really need to talk to the individual heads of the family (or branch family,etc.) to find out their stance on the topic.
 
 ��� I hope this answered your question. If you want anymore specific information, ask and I will do answer whatever I can.  I think it is best to understand my emails as HISTORIC... because some of the families mentioned in my letters may or may not be involved with such ideology in the present day--- and as such, we need to not assume that they still are, to avoid possible insults.
 
   So that is my disclaimer.  And as for sources to this info... *sigh* I really don't feel like hunting it all down. But it is all WELL documented, so just google it or something.. lol  Kumazawa Banzan was a famous Confucian scholar in the 1600s.  He is well documented, so maybe start with him.

--- On Tue, 2/16/10, Cearb@... <Cearb@...> wrote:


From: Cearb@... <Cearb@...>
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] how did samurai get their last name?
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, February 16, 2010, 10:46 PM


 



Steven--

Your information was quite enlightening, but what I'm really looking for is
any name (individual, Daimyo or other major or even reasonably powerful
figure) specifically associated with a southern court claimant to the throne
shortly after the Onin war, say circa 1495... It doesn't have to be the
would-be emperor himself, just someone with a vested interest in seeing a
southern emperor returned to the throne.

Thanks for your assistance!

--RMB

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Steven--

Thanks so much for the excellent information! Very much appreciated! I
had looked through a number of my own sources, but they were all pretty
vague as to what I wanted to know. Now I have a solid basis for further
research.

--RMB


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This is only peripherally related, but I thought I'd share it. I have uploaded two photos to my photobucket account of a spread from Life Magazine from January 21, 1946 (electronic photos snapped of the actual magazines, which are sitting here next to my very cluttered workspace). The article is on "Emperor" Hiromichi and his claim to the throne. It must have made good copy in the immediate postwar days!

BTW, these photos are large (first is about 175K and the second around 760K). I tried to make the second one large enough so that whoever wishes can also read the article. If you're unable to read it and wish me to send or post a larger or cropped version, email me and I'll be glad to modify the picture til I can get the text to show up more sharply.

Smaller photo: http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e328/FuchsiasBucket/JapanCollection/emperorhiromichism.jpg

Larger photo: http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e328/FuchsiasBucket/JapanCollection/emperorhiromichi.jpg

Cheers, and I have been enjoying reading everyone's posts on these subjects lately. I just cannot keep up with it.

Best wishes,
Onnamusha

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Steven Matsheshu wrote:
>
> Well, the most immediate one that comes to mind are the Kumazawa.  That was the family that attempted to peacefully reinstate themselves during WW2.  That family is authorized and legitimized as being valid heirs of the southern court.
>  As for supporters ?  Most of the supporters would go on to serve the Hatakeyama officially, but held a "the south will rise again" mentality, even to the point of supporting and in some cases, intermarrying with legit southern court bloodlines. And then, as we all know, all of these families would eventually end up serving Oda and Toyotomi in some capacity..etc.etc.