Re: Rokuro Kubi

Greetings All--

First, I must say that despite having lived for almost 5 years in Japan and
having read what seemed at the time like a great deal about Japanese
history and the samurai legacy, I feel rather like a rank novice compared to the
depth of information I've found here -- so forgive me if I sound niave.

My principle interest in samurai history is as a jumping-off point for fi
ction, so my interests are roughly 50% history, 50% mythology and folklore.
Which overlong self-introduction brings me to this question: I gather that
the name Rokuro Kubi translates as "Six (ro) neck" -- which suggests to me
that a "ro" is a unit of length. But numerous sources (including good ol'
Google) have NOT led me to any definition of how long a "ro" might be.

Any help?

--R. Michael Burns


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Actually, "roku" translate as "six." I believe that the "ro" after "Rokuro" is simply a masculine suffix to "roku" (six). However, the actual meaning would depend upon the kanji and hiragana used to form the name. I know a bit of spoken Japanese but am quite illiterate in written Japanese. Your best bet would be to have someone who is literate in Japanese kanji/hiragana to look at the written name.

Hope this helps, Nina

-----Original Message-----
From: Cearb@...
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, Dec 30, 2009 2:01 am
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Rokuro Kubi




Greetings All--

First, I must say that despite having lived for almost 5 years in Japan and
having read what seemed at the time like a great deal about Japanese
history and the samurai legacy, I feel rather like a rank novice compared to the
depth of information I've found here -- so forgive me if I sound niave.

My principle interest in samurai history is as a jumping-off point for fi
ction, so my interests are roughly 50% history, 50% mythology and folklore.
Which overlong self-introduction brings me to this question: I gather that
the name Rokuro Kubi translates as "Six (ro) neck" -- which suggests to me
that a "ro" is a unit of length. But numerous sources (including good ol'
Google) have NOT led me to any definition of how long a "ro" might be.

Any help?

--R. Michael Burns

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michael -
Never hurts to consult a dictionary. A Rokuro is a lathe or potters
wheel, the neck of the ghostly Rokuro-kubi has lost its shape twisting
out of control like a tall pot being thrown on a wheel that is
spinning too fast... One hears it all the time, but "show me the
kanji" really is a golden rule when so much of this "Confabulated"
language sounds alike...
-t
Tom Helm
toryu@...
"Moriamur, et in media arma ruamus"
- Vergil

On Dec 29, 2009, at 11:01 PM, Cearb@... wrote:

> Greetings All--
>
> First, I must say that despite having lived for almost 5 years in
> Japan and
> having read what seemed at the time like a great deal about Japanese
> history and the samurai legacy, I feel rather like a rank novice
> compared to the
> depth of information I've found here -- so forgive me if I sound
> niave.
>
> My principle interest in samurai history is as a jumping-off point
> for fi
> ction, so my interests are roughly 50% history, 50% mythology and
> folklore.
> Which overlong self-introduction brings me to this question: I
> gather that
> the name Rokuro Kubi translates as "Six (ro) neck" -- which suggests
> to me
> that a "ro" is a unit of length. But numerous sources (including
> good ol'
> Google) have NOT led me to any definition of how long a "ro" might be.
>
> Any help?
>
> --R. Michael Burns
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Dec 30, 2009, at 2:01 AM, Cearb@... wrote:

> Greetings All--
>
> First, I must say that despite having lived for almost 5 years in
> Japan and
> having read what seemed at the time like a great deal about Japanese
> history and the samurai legacy, I feel rather like a rank novice
> compared to the
> depth of information I've found here -- so forgive me if I sound
> niave.
>
> My principle interest in samurai history is as a jumping-off point
> for fi
> ction, so my interests are roughly 50% history, 50% mythology and
> folklore.
> Which overlong self-introduction brings me to this question: I
> gather that
> the name Rokuro Kubi translates as "Six (ro) neck" -- which suggests
> to me
> that a "ro" is a unit of length. But numerous sources (including
> good ol'
> Google) have NOT led me to any definition of how long a "ro" might be.
>

I think the idea was punning and onomatopoetic. Look at the name again.

Rokurokubi.

So it comes out sounding like roku roku bi rather than just roku kubi
(which is a bit difficult to say in Japanese without forcing some kind
of onbin).

On Dec 30, 2009, at 10:21 AM, Tom Helm wrote:

> Michael -
> Never hurts to consult a dictionary. A Rokuro is a lathe or potters
> wheel, the neck of the ghostly Rokuro-kubi has lost its shape twisting
> out of control like a tall pot being thrown on a wheel that is
> spinning too fast... One hears it all the time, but "show me the
> kanji" really is a golden rule when so much of this "Confabulated"
> language sounds alike...
> -

Dang, I never thought of *a* rokuro. That blows my mind. :)


Tony

Hey I was looking for the length of a RO when I picked the dictionary
up...
-t
Tom Helm
toryu@...
"Moriamur, et in media arma ruamus"
- Vergil

On Dec 30, 2009, at 9:28 AM, Anthony Bryant wrote:

>
> On Dec 30, 2009, at 10:21 AM, Tom Helm wrote:
>
> > Michael -
> > Never hurts to consult a dictionary. A Rokuro is a lathe or potters
> > wheel, the neck of the ghostly Rokuro-kubi has lost its shape
> twisting
> > out of control like a tall pot being thrown on a wheel that is
> > spinning too fast... One hears it all the time, but "show me the
> > kanji" really is a golden rule when so much of this "Confabulated"
> > language sounds alike...
> > -
>
> Dang, I never thought of *a* rokuro. That blows my mind. :)
>
> Tony
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Dec 30, 2009, at 7:25 PM, Tom Helm wrote:

> Hey I was looking for the length of a RO when I picked the dictionary
> up...

LOL!

Well, it all depends on the length of the oars -- the longer the oar,
the farther the ro.


Tony

In a message dated 12/30/2009 12:12:02 PM Eastern Standard Time,
ajbryant@... writes:

I think the idea was punning and onomatopoetic. Look at the name again.

Rokurokubi.

So it comes out sounding like roku roku bi rather than just roku kubi
(which is a bit difficult to say in Japanese without forcing some kind
of onbin).



Good point. I sometimes forget how much the Japanese love puns and
onomatopoeia. As a writer, I can appreciate that element. As a learner, it's
enough to make me want to take up French again.

--RMB


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tom--

In fact, I consulted a number of dictionaries, but apparently the meaning
of "rokuro" was considered too obscure, and for the life of me I couldn't
find the name written in kanji, only in hiragana or romaji, neither of which
illuminates the meaning the way the Chinese characters do, of course.

In any event, I greatly appreciate the clarification.

--R.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

One of my favorite sources for yokai question such as these is: "Yokai World"Its in Japanese, so you can usually find the kanji involved. Its listed "alphabetically," in the left column, by order of beginning phonetic sounds so its in the second-to-last group under "ra" (listed in romaji as "I" for some reason...). Alas, here the "rokuro" portion is written in hiragana. (BTW, for those with limited[...] or no Japanese reading ability, having google "translate" this page can be both moderately helpful AND amusing.)Next stop, Kanji DB.Here the only kanji combo with actual meaning is indeed (as Tony pointed out): 轆轆, "potter's wheel;" but also "pulley," which I think seems a little more likely for this particular critter.The Obakemono Project lists rokurokubi with the hiragana just like at Yokai World. However, you'll notice the English subtitle under the name is indeed "pulley neck."The last of my at-hand resources is the "book" "Yokai Attack: The Japanese Monster Survival Guide" by Hiroko Yoda and Matt Alt (a fruitful and amusing source for this subject). Here she is indeed listed as: 轆轆首, "pulley (or perhaps "potter's wheel"...) neck." They include a list of English versions of the name such as: "Long-neck Woman," "Snake-necked Woman," "Flying-head Woman," and "Rubberneck Woman." They also interject that "Some scholars believe: that the Rokuro Kubi is related to the Japanese idiom 'kubi wo nagakushite matsu.' Although it colloquially means 'eagerly waiting for something,' the literal translation is 'stretching one's neck out to wait.'"
One last personal, and doubtful, theory I just formulated upon reviewing the links provided is this: on the link to Kanji DB provided, the third listing you'll notice is 六呂師. I'm not sure why, but they don't include the "shi" sound for the final kanji (some more proficient at the language may be able to explain), but I find the combination of the first two characters interesting: "roku" (six) and "ro" (spine). Could this 呂 be what there are six of and essentially the unit of length you were inquiring about? So it'd be 六呂首: "Six-Spine-Neck?"Probably not, but it's fun research anyway. (BTW, as I typed the hiragana into my Japanese IME program, the only meaningful selection I have available for rokurokubi IS in fact ろくろ首, so this is likely the common contemporary writing, though it still could be derived from something more specific.)
Sorry for the lengthy post, but I though I'd include several of the resources I use in such situations for your (and those with similar interests) future reference.It's also worth noting the forums at the Obakemono Project, though often tangental, CAN be resourceful as well. (As if this isn't tangental to samurai history...)I prefer the SA!... :P
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Dec 30, 2009, at 2:10 PM, Matthew Anderson wrote:

>
> One of my favorite sources for yokai question such as these is:
> "Yokai World"Its in Japanese, so you can usually find the kanji
> involved. Its listed "alphabetically," in the left column, by order
> of beginning phonetic sounds so its in the second-to-last group
> under "ra" (listed in romaji as "I" for some reason...).
>

I should have looked to my sources. I have a couple dozen books and
cyclopedia on yôkai here, but... sigh.

Brain fart.



Tony

Thank you,
We all learned something it seems
-t
Tom Helm
toryu@...
"Moriamur, et in media arma ruamus"
- Vergil

On Dec 30, 2009, at 3:02 PM, Cearb@... wrote:

> Tom--
>
> In fact, I consulted a number of dictionaries, but apparently the
> meaning
> of "rokuro" was considered too obscure, and for the life of me I
> couldn't
> find the name written in kanji, only in hiragana or romaji, neither
> of which
> illuminates the meaning the way the Chinese characters do, of course.
>
> In any event, I greatly appreciate the clarification.
>
> --R.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 7:25 AM, <nohit@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> Actually, "roku" translate as "six." I believe that the "ro" after "Rokuro"
> is simply a masculine suffix to "roku" (six). However, the actual meaning
> would depend upon the kanji and hiragana used to form the name. I know a bit
> of spoken Japanese but am quite illiterate in written Japanese. Your best
> bet would be to have someone who is literate in Japanese kanji/hiragana to
> look at the written name.
>
> Hope this helps, Nina
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cearb@...
> To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wed, Dec 30, 2009 2:01 am
> Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Rokuro Kubi
>
> Greetings All--
>
> First, I must say that despite having lived for almost 5 years in Japan and
>
> having read what seemed at the time like a great deal about Japanese
> history and the samurai legacy, I feel rather like a rank novice compared
> to the
> depth of information I've found here -- so forgive me if I sound niave.
>
> My principle interest in samurai history is as a jumping-off point for fi
> ction, so my interests are roughly 50% history, 50% mythology and folklore.
>
> Which overlong self-introduction brings me to this question: I gather that
> the name Rokuro Kubi translates as "Six (ro) neck" -- which suggests to me
> that a "ro" is a unit of length. But numerous sources (including good ol'
> Google) have NOT led me to any definition of how long a "ro" might be.
>
> Any help?
>
> --R. Michael Burns
>
>

Actually, it turns out this "roku" has nothing to do with six at all. The
kanji used are shown in Joly's "Legend in Japanese Art" under his entry for
Rokurokubi:

http://bit.ly/7Kj6QG

The link is to the scanned copy at archive.org, which is the 1908 edition,
on p. 291. It's on p. 433 of the reprint editions by Tuttle. Joly
categorizes Rokurokubi, "long-necked goblin," as Bakemono, or "transformed
things," which include all manner of ghosts, goblins, etc., which he covered
more fully in a paper presented to the Japan Society, printed in the
Transactions, Vol. IX.

Happy (scholarly) hunting!

Craig

--
Craig Harris
Bridge of Dreams, LLC
Books from and about Asia
www.bridgeofdreams.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Tom Helm wrote:

>
> Hey I was looking for the length of a RO when I picked the dictionary
> up...
> -t
> Tom Helm
> toryu@...
> "Moriamur, et in media arma ruamus"
> - Vergil
>
>
>

Since the dictionary is not really my 'friend," yet, I went right to my old standby, Henri Joly.

The kanji used are shown in Joly's "Legend in Japanese Art" under his entry for Rokurokubi:

http://bit.ly/7Kj6QG

The link is to the scanned copy at archive.org, which is the 1908 edition, on p. 291. It's on p. 433 of the reprint editions by Tuttle. Joly categorizes Rokurokubi, "long-necked goblin," as Bakemono, or "transformed things," which include all manner of ghosts, goblins, etc., which he covered more fully in a paper presented to the Japan Society in 1909, printed in the Transactions, Vol. IX.

You can never have too many reference books!

Craig

--
Craig Harris
Bridge of Dreams, LLC
Books from and about Asia
www.bridgeofdreams.com

I saw that. I learn something new every day! :)

Nina

-----Original Message-----
From: Craig Harris <bridgeofdreams@...>
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, Dec 30, 2009 9:32 am
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Rokuro Kubi

On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 7:25 AM, <nohit@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> Actually, "roku" translate as "six." I believe that the "ro" after "Rokuro"
> is simply a masculine suffix to "roku" (six). However, the actual meaning
> would depend upon the kanji and hiragana used to form the name. I know a bit
> of spoken Japanese but am quite illiterate in written Japanese. Your best
> bet would be to have someone who is literate in Japanese kanji/hiragana to
> look at the written name.
>
> Hope this helps, Nina
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cearb@...
> To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wed, Dec 30, 2009 2:01 am
> Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Rokuro Kubi
>
> Greetings All--
>
> First, I must say that despite having lived for almost 5 years in Japan and
>
> having read what seemed at the time like a great deal about Japanese
> history and the samurai legacy, I feel rather like a rank novice compared
> to the
> depth of information I've found here -- so forgive me if I sound niave.
>
> My principle interest in samurai history is as a jumping-off point for fi
> ction, so my interests are roughly 50% history, 50% mythology and folklore.
>
> Which overlong self-introduction brings me to this question: I gather that
> the name Rokuro Kubi translates as "Six (ro) neck" -- which suggests to me
> that a "ro" is a unit of length. But numerous sources (including good ol'
> Google) have NOT led me to any definition of how long a "ro" might be.
>
> Any help?
>
> --R. Michael Burns
>
>

Actually, it turns out this "roku" has nothing to do with six at all. The
kanji used are shown in Joly's "Legend in Japanese Art" under his entry for
Rokurokubi:

http://bit.ly/7Kj6QG

The link is to the scanned copy at archive.org, which is the 1908 edition,
on p. 291. It's on p. 433 of the reprint editions by Tuttle. Joly
categorizes Rokurokubi, "long-necked goblin," as Bakemono, or "transformed
things," which include all manner of ghosts, goblins, etc., which he covered
more fully in a paper presented to the Japan Society, printed in the
Transactions, Vol. IX.

Happy (scholarly) hunting!

Craig

--
Craig Harris
Bridge of Dreams, LLC
Books from and about Asia
www.bridgeofdreams.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]