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Tatami-dou Tosei Gusoku

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#10018 [2009-11-01 19:32:52]

Tatami-dou Tosei Gusoku

by getsutakezo

Hi all,
 I am currently making a suit of tatami/karutakane armor (my first suit of armor), and I was wondering if I could get any tips or cool photos of various sengoku armor pieces. I am basing mine off of a suit from the Osaka castle museum (as seen on page 128 of Samurai, by Mitsuo Kure), and it is in a haramaki-do style. I especially want to ask Anthony J. Bryant-whose website has helped immensely-some questions about plate thicknes, that is if anyone knows how to contact him.




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#10020 [2009-11-03 10:58:11]

Tatami-dou Tosei Gusoku

by deanwayland

Hi,

> I am currently making a suit of tatami/karutakane armor (my first suit of
>armor), and I was wondering if I could get any tips or cool photos of various
>sengoku armor pieces. I am basing mine off of a suit from the Osaka
>castle museum (as seen on page 128 of Samurai, by Mitsuo Kure), and it
>is in a haramaki-do style. I especially want to ask Anthony J.
>Bryant-whose website has helped immensely-some questions about plate
>thicknes, that is if anyone knows how to contact him.

Okay, regarding the thickness of the plates in a tatami-dou, I've
examined several over the years, and the plates, when made of iron or
steel varied from as little as 0.4mm, going up to circa 1.6mm.

The thinner one was in a private collection and is illustrated on page
88 of Ian Bottomley's and Jock Hopson's book "Arms and Armour of the
Samurai". Although extremely thin, they were well domed and hardened so
as to resist deformation. The armour was probably made during the very
early Edo era for a samurai as a travelling piece, as the quality of
the finishing is very high.

For a practical fighting armour I'd recommend going with 1.6mm plate if
you can. When properly shaped they stand up well even if not hardened
and tempered. Note that the edge of each plate on an iron or steel
example is turned out a tiny amount so it lays flat(ish) against the
textile foundation, and the plates are arranged in a series of curved
lines so that when worn it follows the contours of the body in
horizontal rows.

Hope your project goes well.

Yours

Dean


If the armour is of hardened and lacqerred rawhide leather, then
typically you are looking at using circa 3mm thick hide. Don't forget to
coat the outer shell with a very thin layer of car body filler before
lacquering. Okay the Japanese didn't use car body filler, but it's the
closest thing you can get to the compound of stone and other stuff that
they did use:-) This will give you a fine smooth surface to paint.


--
Dean Wayland
Head Of The Fight School
http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk

[Previous #10018] [Next #10021]

#10021 [2009-11-02 22:14:29]

RE: [samuraihistory] Tatami-dou Tosei Gusoku

by Michael Peters

Iron thickness on most sengoku era pieces averages .8-1mm. If you have questions for Tony your best bet is joining and posting questions on the Tousando forum.

Regards ,

M.J. Peters

To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
From: getsutakezo@...
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 19:32:52 -0800
Subject: [samuraihistory] Tatami-dou Tosei Gusoku





















Hi all,

I am currently making a suit of tatami/karutakane armor (my first suit of armor), and I was wondering if I could get any tips or cool photos of various sengoku armor pieces. I am basing mine off of a suit from the Osaka castle museum (as seen on page 128 of Samurai, by Mitsuo Kure), and it is in a haramaki-do style. I especially want to ask Anthony J. Bryant-whose website has helped immensely-some questions about plate thicknes, that is if anyone knows how to contact him.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






















_________________________________________________________________
View photos of singles in your area Click Here
http://clk.atdmt.com/NMN/go/150855801/direct/01/

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#10030 [2009-11-08 14:00:44]

Re: [samuraihistory] Tatami-dou Tosei Gusoku

by getsutakezo

Thanks for the tips.  You have no idea how much that helps.

--- On Tue, 11/3/09, Dean Wayland <dean@...> wrote:


From: Dean Wayland <dean@...>
Subject: [samuraihistory] Tatami-dou Tosei Gusoku
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, November 3, 2009, 6:58 PM


 



Hi,

> I am currently making a suit of tatami/karutakane armor (my first suit of
>armor), and I was wondering if I could get any tips or cool photos of various
>sengoku armor pieces. I am basing mine off of a suit from the Osaka
>castle museum (as seen on page 128 of Samurai, by Mitsuo Kure), and it
>is in a haramaki-do style. I especially want to ask Anthony J.
>Bryant-whose website has helped immensely-some questions about plate
>thicknes, that is if anyone knows how to contact him.

Okay, regarding the thickness of the plates in a tatami-dou, I've
examined several over the years, and the plates, when made of iron or
steel varied from as little as 0.4mm, going up to circa 1.6mm.

The thinner one was in a private collection and is illustrated on page
88 of Ian Bottomley's and Jock Hopson's book "Arms and Armour of the
Samurai". Although extremely thin, they were well domed and hardened so
as to resist deformation. The armour was probably made during the very
early Edo era for a samurai as a travelling piece, as the quality of
the finishing is very high.

For a practical fighting armour I'd recommend going with 1.6mm plate if
you can. When properly shaped they stand up well even if not hardened
and tempered. Note that the edge of each plate on an iron or steel
example is turned out a tiny amount so it lays flat(ish) against the
textile foundation, and the plates are arranged in a series of curved
lines so that when worn it follows the contours of the body in
horizontal rows.

Hope your project goes well.

Yours

Dean

If the armour is of hardened and lacqerred rawhide leather, then
typically you are looking at using circa 3mm thick hide. Don't forget to
coat the outer shell with a very thin layer of car body filler before
lacquering. Okay the Japanese didn't use car body filler, but it's the
closest thing you can get to the compound of stone and other stuff that
they did use:-) This will give you a fine smooth surface to paint.

--
Dean Wayland
Head Of The Fight School
http://www.thefight school.demon. co.uk



















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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#10031 [2009-11-09 11:35:15]

Re: [samuraihistory] Tatami-dou Tosei Gusoku

by deanwayland

Hi Takezo-san,

>Thanks for the tips.  You have no idea how much that helps.

My pleasure, knowledge is for sharing.

And yes I think I have a rough idea of how much it helps, as having
someone tell me this information when I started would have saved an
awful lot of frustration!

I was thinking about the last time I was involved in making some armour
similar to this, a Kote (sleeve), and thought I'd pass on what we
learned that would be of benefit to you (and anyone else reading this
post).

So, here's one more tip:

When making the foundation layer of fabric, you'll need three layers,
ideally two of hemp or linen and one of hessian (sack cloth).

1. Sew the outer shell to the hessian.

2. Make up a wooden frame, like that for a picture, pin the sewn panel
to it, to keep it taught while you sew the finished metalwork to it.
That way you don't get any wrinkles or folds accidentally permanently
under the armour. They would drive you nuts when you wear it!.

BTW use a simple running stitch through the flat round rings of the
armour. Otherwise you will be sewing forever! See #5

3. Remove from the frame and cut it to shape.

4. Sew a narrow leather or textile edging about 20-25m wide around the
edge of the foundation, so that the edging fabric and the foundation's
edges match up. This will mean that the edging lays over the top of the
armour at this stage.

5. Now "paint" the back of the hessian with a thin layer of PVA glue
(they would have used rice or fish glue, but you don't want to go
there). This glues the threads holding the armour in position, so that
when one breaks the whole thing won't unravel. This is why you don't
have to sew each plate individually. Seeing how the Japanese had done
this was a real revelation, as we had originally thought the sewing
would take forever. Back then labour was cheap, so we thought it wasn't
a problem - for them. This short cut really saves a tremendous amount of
time, and for the Japanese it would have enabled them to make these
armours by the tens of thousands.

6. Now cut out and lay the inner lining on the back of the armour.

7. Fold the edging leather or fabric back on itself and sew through it
and all the fabric. This means that from the outside of the armour you
won't see any stitching on the edging material, as it is covered by the
folded back leather. The stitches that close the whole thing up are
ideally running parallel to the edging fabric, but not through it on the
front face. Again use a simple running stitch to in effect tack it
closed.

The idea is three fold, to protect the stitching holding the armour in
place from abrasion, by firstly having the entire back free of exposed
threads, and secondly by having the thickened edge of leather or what
ever you use to shield the edge thread from harm. Finally, and so
typically Japanese, to permit the lining to be easily removed for
washing:-)

BTW if you need to access the inside to do repairs, all you have to do
is unpick the closest edge and move the lining aside.

This knowledge was acquired with the help of Ian Bottomley formally of
the Royal Armouries, and Mike Jessop, former keeper of the Wade
Collection at Snowshill Manor, who over several year's arranged access
for myself and Dave Gavin, to closely study various Tatami Do and other
pieces. The least I can do is pass the information around, otherwise
it's just a self-indulgent waste.

Anyway, hope this helps, and all the best with your project.

Dean
__
>
>--- On Tue, 11/3/09, Dean Wayland <dean@...>
>wrote:
>
>From: Dean Wayland <dean@...>
>Subject: [samuraihistory] Tatami-dou Tosei Gusoku
>To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
>Date: Tuesday, November 3, 2009, 6:58 PM
>

>
>Hi,
>
>> I am currently making a suit of tatami/karutakane armor (my first suit of
>>armor), and I was wondering if I could get any tips or cool photos of
>various
>>sengoku armor pieces. I am basing mine off of a suit from the Osaka
>>castle museum (as seen on page 128 of Samurai, by Mitsuo Kure), and
>it
>>is in a haramaki-do style. I especially want to ask Anthony J.
>>Bryant-whose website has helped immensely-some questions about
>plate
>>thicknes, that is if anyone knows how to contact him.
>
>Okay, regarding the thickness of the plates in a tatami-dou, I've
>examined several over the years, and the plates, when made of iron or
>steel varied from as little as 0.4mm, going up to circa 1.6mm.
>
>The thinner one was in a private collection and is illustrated on page
>88 of Ian Bottomley's and Jock Hopson's book "Arms and Armour of the
>Samurai". Although extremely thin, they were well domed and hardened
>so
>as to resist deformation. The armour was probably made during the very
>early Edo era for a samurai as a travelling piece, as the quality of
>the finishing is very high.
>
>For a practical fighting armour I'd recommend going with 1.6mm plate if
>you can. When properly shaped they stand up well even if not hardened
>and tempered. Note that the edge of each plate on an iron or steel
>example is turned out a tiny amount so it lays flat(ish) against the
>textile foundation, and the plates are arranged in a series of curved
>lines so that when worn it follows the contours of the body in
>horizontal rows.
>
>Hope your project goes well.
>
>Yours
>
>Dean
>
>If the armour is of hardened and lacqerred rawhide leather, then
>typically you are looking at using circa 3mm thick hide. Don't forget to
>coat the outer shell with a very thin layer of car body filler before
>lacquering. Okay the Japanese didn't use car body filler, but it's the
>closest thing you can get to the compound of stone and other stuff that
>they did use:-) This will give you a fine smooth surface to paint.

--
Dean Wayland
Head Of The Fight School
http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk

[Previous #10030] [Next #10034]

#10034 [2009-11-28 22:05:44]

28mm Samurai Army For Sale

by martinisword9

A Clan War miniatures-based 28mm Samurai Army is up for sale. This army is a 5,012 points WAB army. Samurai in red armor with black cloth and Ashigaru in black armor and red cloth.

1 Army General
1 Army Standard Bearer
3 foot Samurai Heroes
4 mounted Samurai Heroes
12 Mounted Samurai
80 Samurai miniatures in various poses
80 Ashigaru miniatures in various poses


The miniatures are individually mounted and be rebased for FoG, WAB, KK2, etc.

The sashimonos are not attached to the miniatures. They are mounted on the base and be interchanged quite easily with other sashimonos you can make. I can provide Clan War based sashimonos or historical Japanese mons. Or you can provide your own designs and I can mount them for you.

You can see the miniatures here:
http://peiqixu.smugmug.com/Miniatures/Michelle-Samples/9868302_msdKs#726428097_JeCLi-A-LB

This army is also available in your own custom color scheme. I can provide the miniatures or you can provide your own and be charged for the painting service only.

Please contact msfabros@... for more information regarding prices and delivery times.

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