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Saigo vs. Toshiyoshi (you guys may know this already)

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#981 [2004-06-05 12:34:04]

Saigo vs. Toshiyoshi (you guys may know this already)

by secretarytocapt3

~Sorry~ if this is old info for you guys -or- if it gives away a
fanfic in progress....

[I will also be posting this message at http://www.shinsengumimb.com
so when you see it in the history section just use the "mark forum
read" feature]

According to "The Satsuma Rebellion of 1877 From Kagoshima Through
the Siege of Kumamoto Castle" by James H. Buck
Monumenta Nipponica, Vol 28 no. 4 (Winter 1973) 427-446

[my summary]...will appear in my Tokyo Metropolitan Police Dept.
write up too...I'm just so happy that hours of research turned up
something new for me atleast...

The Imperial government attempted a secret ammunitions seizure from
Kagoshima (officially under government but prior to the Restoration
property of Satsuma clan)...the government was unsuccessful as 1,000
Satsuma men drove off the gov's naval force.
Saigo T. was unaware of this situation. When Saigo T. returned to
Kagoshima, Nakahara Hisao was charged with plotting to assasinate
Saigo T. Furthermore, Nakahara H. confessed to meeting with Kawaji
Toshiyoshi, Chief Inspector of the Tokyo Metropolitan Police Dept
(and native of Satsuma). We don't know if Nakahara's words are to
be trusted however at least 50 members of the Tokyo Police Dept who
were natives of Satsuma returned to Kagoshima in 1876-1877 at the
same time a high-ranking Tokyo official was sent to "adjust Tokyo's
relations with Satsuma leadership." "Some even advocated immediate
execution of the 'traitors' from the Tokyo Police Department."(page
430)

Thus, it is quiet obvious that Kawaji had been monitoring his own
Satsuma domain for some time and used Satsuma policemen as spies.
The article also give some more info on how Satsuma remained
rebellious against various policies,from the government they put in
power, imposed.

[Next #984]

#984 [2004-06-05 15:50:49]

Re: [SHQ] Saigo vs. Toshiyoshi (you guys may know this already)

by warg3791

In a message dated 6/5/2004 3:34:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, secretarytocapt3@... writes:

>
> Subj: [SHQ] Saigo vs. Toshiyoshi (you guys may know this already)
> Date: 6/5/2004 3:34:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time
> From: "secretary" <secretarytocapt3@...>
> To: SHQ@yahoogroups.com
> Reply-To: SHQ@yahoogroups.com
> Sent from the Internet (Details)
>
>
>
>
> ~Sorry~ if this is old info for you guys -or- if it gives away a
> fanfic in progress....
>
> [I will also be posting this message at http://www.shinsengumimb.com
> so when you see it in the history section just use the "mark forum
> read" feature]
>
> According to "The Satsuma Rebellion of 1877 From Kagoshima Through
> the Siege of Kumamoto Castle" by James H. Buck
> Monumenta Nipponica, Vol 28 no. 4 (Winter 1973) 427-446
>
> [my summary]...will appear in my Tokyo Metropolitan Police Dept.
> write up too...I'm just so happy that hours of research turned up
> something new for me atleast...
>
> The Imperial government attempted a secret ammunitions seizure from
> Kagoshima (officially under government but prior to the Restoration
> property of Satsuma clan)...the government was unsuccessful as 1,000
> Satsuma men drove off the gov's naval force.
> Saigo T. was unaware of this situation. When Saigo T. returned to
> Kagoshima, Nakahara Hisao was charged with plotting to assasinate
> Saigo T. Furthermore, Nakahara H. confessed to meeting with Kawaji
> Toshiyoshi, Chief Inspector of the Tokyo Metropolitan Police Dept
> (and native of Satsuma). We don't know if Nakahara's words are to
> be trusted however at least 50 members of the Tokyo Police Dept who
> were natives of Satsuma returned to Kagoshima in 1876-1877 at the
> same time a high-ranking Tokyo official was sent to "adjust Tokyo's
> relations with Satsuma leadership." "Some even advocated immediate
> execution of the 'traitors' from the Tokyo Police Department."(page
> 430)
>
> Thus, it is quiet obvious that Kawaji had been monitoring his own
> Satsuma domain for some time and used Satsuma policemen as spies.
> The article also give some more info on how Satsuma remained
> rebellious against various policies,from the government they put in
> power, imposed.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70
>
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/cGIolB/TM">Click Here!
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> --------~->
>
> visit
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SHQ_Spy_Division/
>
> our companion list featuring fanfiction/art
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Hm, I haven't gotten that far into The Last Samurai book yet. I wonder if it will have any more about this? I'll give a shout if it does. I've only started seriously looking into Saigo's history myself, so just about anything that doesn't involve the Shinsengumi is new to me.

-MissBehavin

[Previous #981] [Next #996]

#996 [2004-06-06 03:46:11]

Re: Saigo vs. Toshiyoshi (you guys may know this already)

by secretarytocapt3

I need to make a few adjustments to the comments I made earlier,
EVERYONE called Saigo, GREAT SAIGO, and no the book was really that
pro Saigo at all...the book was AWESOME and it gives some some more
info on Nakahara Hisao, and how Kawaji's assasination plan was an
order from [Okubo] (remember Barb's earlier comments on how the 3
Great Men of the Restoration squabbled amongst themselves?). Thanks
for the translation of the newspaper article Miss B. Actually the
location Ichigo mentioned in relation to Fujita G is mentioned in
Seinan War books (one of the 2 Japanese books I mentioned had a pic of
Kawaji which made sense seeing how he was actually one of the field
generals in this war).

From what I've read so far, it would be ridiculous if more recent
books in English fail to mention the TMPD because they seemed to have
done most of the fighting (I also have stats to prove this as well)
and you would come across an entire police unit under siege at
Kumamoto Castle. I think that newspaper articles were based on spy
info because even in the account of the siege of Kumamoto Castle we
have the name of one guy who ran around dressed as a peasant
collecting/delivering alot of info. Furthermore, they seemed to have
been put in front of alot of skirmishes which made me wonder how
important demographics are in this war (government thinks: many of
these guys are from Aizu, might as well put them on the front lines).


--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, Warg3791@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 6/5/2004 3:34:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
secretarytocapt3@h... writes:
>
> >
> > Subj: [SHQ] Saigo vs. Toshiyoshi (you guys may know this already)
> > Date: 6/5/2004 3:34:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time
> > From: "secretary"
> > To: SHQ@yahoogroups.com
> > Reply-To: SHQ@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent from the Internet (Details)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ~Sorry~ if this is old info for you guys -or- if it gives away a
> > fanfic in progress....
> >
> > [I will also be posting this message at http://www.shinsengumimb.com
> > so when you see it in the history section just use the "mark forum
> > read" feature]
> >
> > According to "The Satsuma Rebellion of 1877 From Kagoshima Through
> > the Siege of Kumamoto Castle" by James H. Buck
> > Monumenta Nipponica, Vol 28 no. 4 (Winter 1973) 427-446
> >
> > [my summary]...will appear in my Tokyo Metropolitan Police Dept.
> > write up too...I'm just so happy that hours of research turned up
> > something new for me atleast...
> >
> > The Imperial government attempted a secret ammunitions seizure from
> > Kagoshima (officially under government but prior to the Restoration
> > property of Satsuma clan)...the government was unsuccessful as 1,000
> > Satsuma men drove off the gov's naval force.
> > Saigo T. was unaware of this situation. When Saigo T. returned to
> > Kagoshima, Nakahara Hisao was charged with plotting to assasinate
> > Saigo T. Furthermore, Nakahara H. confessed to meeting with Kawaji
> > Toshiyoshi, Chief Inspector of the Tokyo Metropolitan Police Dept
> > (and native of Satsuma). We don't know if Nakahara's words are to
> > be trusted however at least 50 members of the Tokyo Police Dept who
> > were natives of Satsuma returned to Kagoshima in 1876-1877 at the
> > same time a high-ranking Tokyo official was sent to "adjust Tokyo's
> > relations with Satsuma leadership." "Some even advocated immediate
> > execution of the 'traitors' from the Tokyo Police Department."(page
> > 430)
> >
> > Thus, it is quiet obvious that Kawaji had been monitoring his own
> > Satsuma domain for some time and used Satsuma policemen as spies.
> > The article also give some more info on how Satsuma remained
> > rebellious against various policies,from the government they put in
> > power, imposed.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
--------------------~-->
> > Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70
> >
HREF="http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/cGIolB/TM">Click
Here!

> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > --------~->
> >
> > visit
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SHQ_Spy_Division/
> >
> > our companion list featuring fanfiction/art
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
> Hm, I haven't gotten that far into The Last Samurai book yet. I
wonder if it will have any more about this? I'll give a shout if it
does. I've only started seriously looking into Saigo's history myself,
so just about anything that doesn't involve the Shinsengumi is new to me.
>
> -MissBehavin

[Previous #984] [Next #998]

#998 [2004-06-06 06:28:32]

Re: [SHQ] Re: Saigo vs. Toshiyoshi (you guys may know this already)

by warg3791

In a message dated 6/6/2004 6:46:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, secretarytocapt3@... writes:

> From what I've read so far, it would be ridiculous if more recent
> books in English fail to mention the TMPD because they seemed to have
> done most of the fighting (I also have stats to prove this as well)
> and you would come across an entire police unit under siege
> at
> Kumamoto Castle.


Acutally, neither the very recent Mark Ravina book or the other Samurai book I have (which has a chapter about the SW War right after the chapter on Aizu) make much mention of them at all. I did see "police troops" mentioned once, so I tend to think they just lump them all together as "government forces" with no distinction of what part of the government they were working for. The main focus is Saigo and his rebels.

-MissBehavin

[Previous #996] [Next #1001]

#1001 [2004-06-06 09:23:51]

Re: Saigo vs. Toshiyoshi (you guys may know this already)

by secretarytocapt3

@_@
did you check for Kumamoto Castle in the index?
In a totally different book the author lists the possible reasons
for why the Satsuma forces lost...and one of the reasons is that
Saigo spent too long concentrating his troops on laying seige to
this castle, in which a whole bunch of policemen were trapped.
Initially the guys in the castle had no idea as to who was leading
the forces surrounding the castle and then they realize GREAT SAIGO
had them pinned down in one place. So I'm pretty ticked off you
books don't even mention this ^_^

I guess my library books are detailed...it even lists field
commanders almost all of them were specifically under TMPD. Since
TMPD's training was more intense and the officers were more
experienced from previous wars they were use all over the place in
the Seinan wars. An estimated 6,000 police officers. Each book will
have a different "break down" of the numbers.

Today's "Menu During a Seige" as we wait for other police troops to
show up...
millet gruel
vegetable gruel which looks like bird droppings
horsemeat (lets hope one of our steeds get shot today)
soup made from crushed horse bone
yummy

can't stand the menu? Then its time to open the gates and find
help...

I'm not going to give away spoilers to my write up...but when they
say "intense fighting" they mean it...some of the tactics were
downright scary...police battalions were quiet small and designed
that way for fast maneuvers...the rest of the peasant conscripts
(basically anyone who was not a police officer) served almost back
up purposes unless there was a major confrontation. Note, the
various texts I've read will constantly mention Satsuma as taunting
the Imperial Forces as "peasants" etc again a class distinction was
very evident and I thought Satsuma wanted to end feudalism hmm....

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, Warg3791@a... wrote:

> Acutally, neither the very recent Mark Ravina book or the other
Samurai book I have (which has a chapter about the SW War right
after the chapter on Aizu) make much mention of them at all. I did
see "police troops" mentioned once, so I tend to think they just
lump them all together as "government forces" with no distinction of
what part of the government they were working for. The main focus is
Saigo and his rebels.
>
> -MissBehavin

[Previous #998] [Next #1002]

#1002 [2004-06-06 09:52:59]

Re: [SHQ] Re: Saigo vs. Toshiyoshi (you guys may know this already)

by bsher213

secretary wrote:

>Today's "Menu During a Seige" as we wait for other police troops to
>show up... millet gruel
>vegetable gruel which looks like bird droppings
>horsemeat (lets hope one of our steeds get shot today)
>soup made from crushed horse bone
>yummy
>
>
No wonder Saitou looks so blah and worn out in that group photo! The
poor man hadn't had a decent meal let alone a bowl of soba in far too long!

[Previous #1001] [Next #1003]

#1003 [2004-06-06 12:40:57]

Re: Saigo vs. Toshiyoshi ("tail" in translations)

by secretarytocapt3

Barb, we don't know if Fujita G was at Kumamoto Castle because it
happened very early on in the conflict...basically this Castle was
standing between Tokyo and Saigo's army. The police stationed at
Kumamoto were pretty shocked to find a document on the body of one
of Saigo's guys indicating that none other than Saigo was waiting
beyond the castle walls. In this case the police trapped in the
castle were seriously outnumbered...I'm not going to spoil the
story :)

Miss B, remember how we were scratching our heads over the
word "tail" that babelfish keeps spitting out? Well it seems that
in many maneuvers during the Seinan War, specifically involving
police battalions their goal was take attack Saigo's forces from the
back, furthermore, the article I was reading deals alot
with "pronged" or "pincer" movements the government used to deal
with the guerrilla forces used by Saigo after siege of Kumamoto
Castle (considered by another researcher to be a turning point of
the war because it raised the morale of gov. troops). After the
siege of Kumamoto castle, fierce fighting continued (because other
groups of samurai began to join with Saigo) and in a way the gov.
had to deal with a smashed bee hive so to speak.

3-hajime mentioned that it was hard/impossible to determine which
battalion Fujita G. was assigned to and I know why...once police
troops were deployed they were re-organized and split up a couple of
times as tactics in the war changed. All I know was that Kawaji was
in charge of an independent brigade #3 and this was considered to be
a "final" reorganization as of March 1877. None of the writers
understand how to present the info visually like a pyramid structure
or something because it seems that there are brigades/battalions and
then a whole bunch of other police battalions running around too
which I assume are part of a larger brigade. I know there is
probably a military book out there that explains this stuff but I am
reading info from 3 authors and they mention both
brigades/battalions/units without drawing any distinction or even
giving a basic defintion :(

Miss B, did you find in 3-hajime anywhere of a "bonus" or prize
award given to Fujita G, besides the Medal "Order of the Blue
Paulownia"? One of the ideas adopted from the French/"Paris" police
system was the idea of monetary awards to policemen.

Remember how we discussed how much 100 yen really was back then?
Fujita G received the "Order of the Blue Paulownia" + 100 yen.
During the Seinan War, the gov. troops were in Saigo friendly
domains and when they inadvertantly destroyed civilian homes,
commanders had to compensate the civilians ofcourse. In one record
it mentions a gov. official awarding 5 to 10 yen to people who lost
their home during the fighting...so 100 yen was -alot- of money.

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, BarbaraSheridan wrote:
>
>
> secretary wrote:
>
> >Today's "Menu During a Seige" as we wait for other police troops
to
> >show up... millet gruel
> >vegetable gruel which looks like bird droppings
> >horsemeat (lets hope one of our steeds get shot today)
> >soup made from crushed horse bone
> >yummy
> >
> >
> No wonder Saitou looks so blah and worn out in that group photo!
The
> poor man hadn't had a decent meal let alone a bowl of soba in far
too long!

[Previous #1002]


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