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Re: MORE information on Sagara & the Sekihoutai

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#855 [2004-05-25 08:50:36]

Re: MORE information on Sagara & the Sekihoutai

by serizawakamo

> Subject: MORE information on Sagara & the Sekihoutai
> (and other wonderful stuff)
>
>
> and I�m assuming that it becomes �sekibotai�
> because of what Masayoshi explained about �h�
> turning to �b� in some cases (as in jinbaori for war
> haori).


No, actually it's "Sekihoutai", not "Sekibotai".
That's because "hou" isn't combined with "seki" in
this case.

As it seems that there is an interest in the
Sekihoutai in this list, I did a quick search at
Google and found these that may be of interest:

http://www.geocities.jp/hayasenagaru/sekihou/nenpyo.html
This is a timetable comparing Sekihoutai's actions to
the Imperial Army's ("Soutokufu") actions.

http://www1.ocn.ne.jp/~oomi/tokusyu14.htm
And this is about the incident where Sagara Souzou
tried to put fire in the Satsuma fief house and caused
several disturbances in the city of Edo.

Unfortunately, both links are in Japanese :-/

Serizawa Kamo






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#856 [2004-05-25 09:51:50]

Re: [SHQ] Re: MORE information on Sagara & the Sekihoutai

by spiritus_saitou

Serizawa Kamo <serizawakamo@...> wrote:

>>No, actually it's "Sekihoutai", not "Sekibotai".
That's because "hou" isn't combined with "seki" in
this case.<<

Uh, any reason you can tell us as to why the author of the article called it "Sekibotai" then? I know I'd never seen it spelled like that until this article.

>>As it seems that there is an interest in the
Sekihoutai in this list, I did a quick search at
Google and found these that may be of interest:<<

Many thanks... I hadn't gotten as far as checking Japanese sites (stubbornly avoiding the evil fish and the gist of gist until I couldn't stand it any longer). If you didn't know it before, now you do --- Sagara is an obsession of mine equal to the one I have for Saitou (and I've avoided Japanese sites with him, too). I've always been curious as to the Shinsengumi connection with Suzuki (not politically or anything, just that a wolf found a place in the Sekihoutai) and I have reason to be particularly thankful he ended up with Sagara... Shinsengumi fans are definitely the best when it comes to tracking things down and sharing!

>>http://www.geocities.jp/hayasenagaru/sekihou/nenpyo.html
This is a timetable comparing Sekihoutai's actions to
the Imperial Army's ("Soutokufu") actions.<<

Can anyone tell me why this site is coming up in gibberish instead of kanji? Because of that, babelfish can't translate it (apparently). Anything I can do from my end to get it to load correctly?

>>http://www1.ocn.ne.jp/~oomi/tokusyu14.htm
And this is about the incident where Sagara Souzou
tried to put fire in the Satsuma fief house and caused
several disturbances in the city of Edo.<<

Tried to put "out" the fire, right? He was a Satsuma retainer by then and this would be the incident MissB included where the bakufu set fire to the Satsuma villa in retaliation?

I'm curious about a couple of things... the fish is too vague for me to figure out. Are they saying that Sagara's body is actually buried where the monument in Shimosuwa is? And what's this "Mitsuru"? Kojima four must be Koshima Shirou (are "j" and "sh" used interchangeably like "o", "ou" and "oh" as in Saitou's name?) and they're saying he changed it to Sagara Souzou ("entire three"?), but I'm not understanding "military officer Mitsuru," which shows up several times in the article.

(babelfish): "Entire watch Kojima four �Y military officer Mitsuru (changed name Sagara entire three)"

>>Unfortunately, both links are in Japanese :-/<<

Yeah, I'd say that's unfortunate for morons like me... :-D Still, as with the Shinsengumi and Saitou sites secretarytocapt3's been digging up, it is a little more than we had previously, even if we often end up speculating on the babelfish translation and then *begging* you and Masayoshi for a real translation. And it does give me hope that struggling with babelfish may be worth it for Sagara. I'm really grateful, SK.

phil (who really isn't ready to set up a Sagara site, but thinking maybe it's time to get this stuff organized for Japanese-language-challenged interested parties... )



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#857 [2004-05-25 10:07:00]

Re: MORE information on Sagara & the Sekihoutai

by shimazuryu

Alright, everyone, I have the answer! I know why it's
saying "Mitsuru". Because the name of the person is spelled out in
hiragana next to the kanji, the stupid fish is getting confused. The
name is actually Kojima Masamitsu, which I believe is none other than
Sagara Souzou himself.

--M.

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#858 [2004-05-25 10:16:57]

Re: [SHQ] Re: MORE information on Sagara & the Sekihoutai

by spiritus_saitou

Just to make sure my head's clear about this... Kojima Masamitsu is ANOTHER name for Kojima/Koshima Shirou and Sagara Souzou (bringing us to a total of three possible name searches, forgetting the j&sh&o&ou things for the moment), ne?

phil

Shimazu Masayoshi <patriot014@...> wrote:
Alright, everyone, I have the answer! I know why it's
saying "Mitsuru". Because the name of the person is spelled out in
hiragana next to the kanji, the stupid fish is getting confused. The
name is actually Kojima Masamitsu, which I believe is none other than
Sagara Souzou himself.

--M.



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#859 [2004-05-25 10:22:23]

Re: MORE information on Sagara & the Sekihoutai

by shimazuryu

> Just to make sure my head's clear about this... Kojima Masamitsu is
ANOTHER name for Kojima/Koshima Shirou and Sagara Souzou (bringing us
to a total of three possible name searches, forgetting the j&sh&o&ou
things for the moment), ne?

In a nutshell, yes. Shirou would probably be his childhood name, as
it means "fourth son". Later he would've taken the name Masamitsu,
probably after reaching adulthood. And then of course he became
Sagara Souzou later.

--M.

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#865 [2004-05-25 15:02:45]

Re: Re: Re: MORE information on Sagara & the Sekihoutai

by serizawakamo

> >>No, actually it's "Sekihoutai", not "Sekibotai".
> That's because "hou" isn't combined with "seki" in
> this case.<<
>
> Uh, any reason you can tell us as to why the author
> of the article called it "Sekibotai" then? I know
> I'd never seen it spelled like that until this
> article.


Probably because the author thought just like you in a
previous post :)
If I'm not mistaken, "Sekihoutai" comes from "SEKIshin
ni MUKUiru TAI", the "Troop of the Most Loyal/Sincere
Devotion" (something like that), therefore the "hou"
has no direct relationship to "seki" :)



> >>http://www1.ocn.ne.jp/~oomi/tokusyu14.htm
> And this is about the incident where Sagara Souzou
> tried to put fire in the Satsuma fief house and
> caused
> several disturbances in the city of Edo.<<
>
> Tried to put "out" the fire, right?


No, no, trying to PUT the house on fire indeed,
putting the blame on the Shogunate so that Satsuma
would have a good excuse to take up arms.


> I'm curious about a couple of things... the fish is
> too vague for me to figure out. Are they saying
> that Sagara's body is actually buried where the
> monument in Shimosuwa is?


It seems so...


> And what's this
> "Mitsuru"? Kojima four must be Koshima Shirou (are
> "j" and "sh" used interchangeably like "o", "ou" and
> "oh" as in Saitou's name?) and they're saying he
> changed it to Sagara Souzou ("entire three"?), but
> I'm not understanding "military officer Mitsuru,"
> which shows up several times in the article.


As Masayoshi already clarified, his previous name was
"Kojima Shirou Masamitsu" (can't say "Koshima",
though).


Serizawa Kamo





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#867 [2004-05-25 16:03:53]

Re: [SHQ] Re: Re: Re: MORE information on Sagara & the Sekihoutai

by spiritus_saitou

Serizawa Kamo <serizawakamo@...> wrote:

>>If I'm not mistaken, "Sekihoutai" comes from "SEKIshin
ni MUKUiru TAI", the "Troop of the Most Loyal/Sincere
Devotion" (something like that), therefore the "hou"
has no direct relationship to "seki" :) <<

Dr. FangLang's Pavement gives "hou" being abbreviated from "hou koku," meaning "kuni ni mukuiru koto" ---- similiar to what you've given --- with the entire "Sekihoutai" meaning "Troop of Cordiality and Repaying" (though I prefer sincerity/devotion as the meaning behind seki shin (which the site gives as meaning "magokoro"... cordiality brings a different context to my mind).
>>No, no, trying to PUT the house on fire indeed,
putting the blame on the Shogunate so that Satsuma
would have a good excuse to take up arms.<<

:-D Very devious. Maybe ol' Saigou did have reason to be concerned about him, after all. Even though he's picking up some bad habits as we learn more (bad in the sense he wasn't so "pure" as Watsuki made him in RK), I'm liking him more and more as he becomes more real. Sounds like he could've had a bit of the pirate in him. (Yeah, yeah... I know... it was war.) I can see aspects of Tsukioka Tsunan/Katsu in him. This is *so* much fun!

>>As Masayoshi already clarified, his previous name was
"Kojima Shirou Masamitsu" (can't say "Koshima",
though).<<

So in other words, the surname is actually Kojima, NOT Koshima for any reason... that somewhere along the line someone has translated it wrong and it's been propagating as misinformation? If I'm going to set up a site for this man, the least I can do is either stop reproducing the error or explain how it could be spelled either way.
Thanks for all the clarifications and the chance to engage in some discussion about him. I feel so... alone... when it comes to Sagara and the Sekihoutai.

phil


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