Saigo's orders to Sagara

Just picked up the book The Last Samurai, The Life and Battles of
Saigo Takamori by Mark Ravina, published by John Wiley & Sons, Inc.
(2004) ISBN#0-471-08970-2

It will be a while before I have a chance to read it thoroughly, but
I thought some folks in the group (YES, I mean Phil) would like to
know what it had to say about Sagara Sozo. It's really irritating
that there are only TWO references to him in the entire book, esp.
since it fails to mention that he was with the Sekihoutai or that he
was executed by the new government Saigo helped set up. What is
really infuriating however it that an order Saigo gave to Sagara
seems like it could have played some role in that latter's eventual
execution. Here are the two passages in question:

"Saigo now realized that peace and order favored Keiki and gave a
minor order with major reprecussions. In mid-1867/10 he ordered
Sagara Sozo, a Satsuma retainer, to gather ronin and to foment
general chaos in Edo. Using Satsuma's villa in the Mita district as
their headquarters, Sagara and his men ransacked merchant warehouses,
set fire to shogunal property, and attacked Edo police officers. If
Keiki had the upper hand in the imperial court, Saigo would draw him
into the street."

Then later it says:

"The stalemate was broken on 12/28 when Keiki received news from Edo.
Five days earlier, after weeks of rumors that Satsuma agents were
planniing to attack Edo Castle, a suspicious fire had broken out and
destroyed the castle women's quarters. That same evening someone had
shot at the Edo villa of Shonai domain, a close shogunal ally. When
men from Shonai gave chase, the assailants had fled through the city
to the Satsuma villa. These events came on the heels of weeks of
brigandage attributed to Satsuma-led ronin. Edo officials were
outraged, indignant, and ready to fight. On 12/25 they attacked and
burned the Shimazu villa, killing several men. In Edo, if not in
Kyoto, war had broken out.

The crisis in Edo was Saigo's handiwork, the result of his orders to
Sagara Sozo, and the plan had finally pushed Keiki into a corner.
Keiki was willing, if not eager, to step down as shogun and to
surrender responsibility for the quagmire of foreign affairs. But the
attack on Edo Castle and the Shonai villa challenged Keiki's dignity
as a warrior..."

Basically, this is what led to the battle of Toba-Fushimi. Why do
they always leave the what the REAL fighters do out of the history
books?! They don't even mention the Shinsengumi ONCE!!! How can you
NOT mention the Shinsengumi?! There does appear to be a bit more
about the group Sano Harada fought with however, so maybe I'll learn
something interesting there.

In the meantime, I have to speculate what part the terror Saigo had
Sagara cause in Edo could have played in the Sekihoutai Captain's
eventual execution. Those of you who read Remembering Aizu will
recall that there were rumors of attacks in Edo. It was most likely
these assaults by the Sekihoutai they were hearing about. It seems
likely to me that after all was said and done, someone came to Saigo
and said, "Now would you care to explain just what the #### happened
in Edo?!" And the lying snake just shrugged and said "Ask Sagara."

Aside from that book, there were three others about samurai that were
supposed to be translated from texts that instructed them on
different rules, etiquettes, etc. I'll try to post some stuff from
them later, along with the titles, ISBN#s, etc.


-MissBehavin (Saigo. Soku. Zan.)

Oooo, that was *SO* delicious, MissB!!! Thank you, thank you, thank you!!! Tells me so much more about what Sagara was up to prior to the formation of the Sekihoutai. I knew he was responsible for attacks on bakufu offices in an attempt to disrupt the administration, but this is much more detail than I had.

However...

warg3791 <Warg3791@...> wrote:

>>Those of you who read Remembering Aizu will recall that there were rumors of attacks in Edo. It was most likely these assaults by the Sekihoutai they were hearing about. It seems likely to me that after all was said and done, someone came to Saigo and said, "Now would you care to explain just what the #### happened

in Edo?!" And the lying snake just shrugged and said "Ask Sagara."<<

These attacks in 1867 are PRIOR to the formation of the Sekihoutai, which was created around the time of Toba-Fushimi, when the Imperialists felt confident they had control. The Sekihoutai was supposed to be an advance troop sent to send word back to the main army what they were getting into before they reached it (they scoped out the mood in order to warn the Imperialist Army if they could expect problems) and to dessiminate information (like the halving of land taxes) to the rural areas. They were apparently not meant to be an offensive fighting unit of any kind. (The Sekihoutai was made up mostly of farmers & merchants, too, not ronin... though, obviously, there were a few.)

I think Saigou was far more devious, his motivation even stronger/more determined to rid himself of Sagara, in his ordering the creation of the Sekihoutai and then, if not directly ordering it (which I *think* I've read somewhere he did), publically supporting the halving of land taxes... the very thing they nailed Sagara on. I can certainly see him using the situation in Edo as fodder for the fire, though. Nasty man, that Sagara... He had the audacity to follow Saigou's orders...

Ultimately, I still hold to the theory the Sekihoutai was a solid plot to create faith and trust in the Imperialists, who needed all the support they could get, by sending Sagara out there with a lie and saving the people from him.

>>It's really irritating that there are only TWO references to him in the entire book, esp. since it fails to mention that he was with the Sekihoutai or that he was executed by the new government Saigo helped set up.<<

Hey! At least he got mentioned... and twice! :-D That's more than in most information on the period I've come across. THAT's what gets frustruting.

If the book is pro-Saigou in any way, I don't expect them to go into much detail about Sagara. If it really was what my gut reaction has been, it's an extremely black mark against Saigou. There is also, unfortunately, the very real possibity that records were destroyed either at the time or later, or other Imperialists who knew/realized it really didn't want it to be preserved for posterity. Something must've survived since the government issued an official apology many, many years later (ironically at the same time they "made peace" with Aizu).

MissB and to everyone else here who has been keeping an eye out for me... thank you so much for sharing what you find on Sagara. I'm glad he had a wolf in his company to allow him some measure of remembrance here at least.

phil (with new things to think about... yummy!)



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70/year

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Just one more comment and, I promise, I'll shut up... :-D

warg3791 <Warg3791@...> wrote:

>>In mid-1867/10 he ordered Sagara Sozo, a Satsuma retainer, to gather ronin and to foment general chaos in Edo.<<

I wonder if there is something to the idea that Sagara possessed a personal charisma. He seems to have gathered men to him quickly, both ronin for these terrorist activities and non-samurai for the Sekihoutai.

And, hmmmm... if initially Sagara was fighting with the Mito clan, I wonder if he transfered his allegiance to the Imperialists at the same time Satsuma allied with Choshuu... This is the first I've heard of who he was a retainer for. Dr. FangLang's Pavement only comments that Sagara had to end his assocation with the Mito clan. sigh... Time to dig out my one book and start learning more about Satsuma's involvement.

>>Five days earlier, after weeks of rumors that Satsuma agents were planniing to attack Edo Castle, a suspicious fire had broken out and destroyed the castle women's quarters.<<

Well, if Sagara looked *anything* like Watsuki's creation, I'm sure that was easy enough to do... ;-) (Yes, I know, Watsuki created Sagara from his own imagination, but still... )

phil


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70/year

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 5/22/2004 8:10:27 PM Eastern Standard Time,
spiritus_saitou@... writes:

>>Those of you who read Remembering Aizu will recall that there were rumors

of attacks in Edo. It was most likely these assaults by the Sekihoutai they
were hearing about. It seems likely to me that after all was said and done,
someone came to Saigo and said, "Now would you care to explain just what the ####
happened
in Edo?!" And the lying snake just shrugged and said "Ask Sagara."<<

These attacks in 1867 are PRIOR to the formation of the Sekihoutai, which was
created around the time of Toba-Fushimi, when the Imperialists felt confident
they had control. The Sekihoutai was supposed to be an advance troop sent to
send word back to the main army what they were getting into before they
reached it (they scoped out the mood in order to warn the Imperialist Army if they
could expect problems) and to dessiminate information (like the halving of
land taxes) to the rural areas. They were apparently not meant to be an
offensive fighting unit of any kind. (The Sekihoutai was made up mostly of farmers &
merchants, too, not ronin... though, obviously, there were a few.)

I think Saigou was far more devious, his motivation even stronger/more
determined to rid himself of Sagara, in his ordering the creation of the Sekihoutai
and then, if not directly ordering it (which I *think* I've read somewhere he
did), publically supporting the halving of land taxes... the very thing they
nailed Sagara on. I can certainly see him using the situation in Edo as fodder
for the fire, though. Nasty man, that Sagara... He had the audacity to
follow Saigou's orders...

Ultimately, I still hold to the theory the Sekihoutai was a solid plot to
create faith and trust in the Imperialists, who needed all the support they could
get, by sending Sagara out there with a lie and saving the people from him.
Sorry phil! Don't know where my mind went!!! But maybe that does at least
explain why Suzuki wasn't executed when Sagara was. Perhaps the fact that he was
also in charge of those Satsuma ronin drew most of the blame to him? They may
have made a greater effort to capture him for this reason.


-MissBehavin


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Warg3791@... wrote:

>>Sorry phil! Don't know where my mind went!!! <<

I think it's probably that you're more sane about this than I am. :-D You know what obsession is like...

>>But maybe that does at least explain why Suzuki wasn't executed when Sagara was. Perhaps the fact that he was also in charge of those Satsuma ronin drew most of the blame to him? They may have made a greater effort to capture him for this reason.<<

I'd think it's very possible. This whole idea that members of the Sekihoutai did survive, that perhaps it was only the first patrol (Sagara's patrol) that was executed, is still too new to me. Watsuki really gave the strong impression that it was the *entire* Sekihoutai that was wiped out. Who knows... maybe Suzuki was really the sole survivor (though somehow I doubt it... I'm still amazed so many Shinsengumi survived when earlier readings I did gave the impression they were destroyed almost to a man).

If nothing else, it dislodges the possibility that Saigou might've done it for personal reasons as the only motive in my own thinking (which is kind of a relief, actually), that there were extenuating circumstances (still not Sagara's fault... he was following orders in a war) that might lead others to want his blood. It was still a wretched thing to do... Sagara remains an absolute scapegoat... I still hate Saigou and believe he was at the heart of it... but at least it muddies the water so he doesn't have to be such a purely self-motivated person. I mean, I still think he was a megalomaniac, but I can see how he could want his legend to be associated with the salvation of Japan, that sacrificing Sagara was worth it in his mind to strengthen the whole. Do I have any hope that that makes *any* sense?

phil (who thought Suzuki surviving was angst enough to throw into SaiSa... now I've got Sagara as a Satsuma retainer... though I guess Sagara was dead before personal hatred of Satsuma would've *really* touched Saitou??? Wasn't it over the Battle of Aizu that the hatred became intense?)


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70/year

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]