SHQ - Topic from Wounds~Beheading Decapitation

#805 [2004-05-20 21:56:01]

Topic from Wounds~Beheading Decapitation

by secretarytocapt3

{{{{WARNING}}}}
VERY VERY VERY
Grisly stuff ahead...leave now if you don't like this stuff

The original post from our member "Wounds"
http://p076.ezboard.com/fshinsengumiheadquartersfrm2.showMessage?topicID=48.topic

in regards to Kondou's execution

I read ~years~ ago that there is more than one way to do this

like in cutting all things with the sword you kind of concentrate on
using the first 1/3 of the blade (don't count the hilt), starting from
the tip. This has to do with the physics of the swing etc etc...the
part of the blade you want to use is really easy to see on a kendo
shinai as there is rope/leather which "bind" the bamboo and basically
divide the the blade into "parts" so to speak.

Unlike an execution, in seppuku the "second" who beheads the person
does not cut all the way through...he will cut in far enough to read
the skin at the front of the neck and pull the blade out which will
prevent the head from simply "falling" on the ground (this happens in
a split second)...over time ritual suicide etiquette/procedures will
change to the point the person who commits suicide can mere point to
his stomach with a fan and the second will do his job...without the
person disemboweling himself.

There was a detailed account I read on how in an execution the person
doing the beheading is going for a certain point on the vertebra (this
is common sense since he is cutting through...) but ~how~ one can
accomplish this is beyond me...the point is they wanted the center
between the base of the neck and shoulder...note that the best swords
can cut through 2-3 corpses (according to accounts of testing swords).

In the film Shinsengumi! BAnd of Assasins (starring Toshiro)...Kondou
holds up his poney tail so the executioner can do his job...to me that
seems weird...it would've made more sense to tie his hair up rather
than hold his hair with his hand....in anycase none of the stuff I
read really discusses the hair of the person about to be executed.

[Next #810]

#810 [2004-05-21 07:43:31]

Re: [SHQ] Topic from Wounds~Beheading Decapitation

by okitasoji

>>>Unlike an execution, in seppuku the "second" who beheads the person

does not cut all the way through...he will cut in far enough to read
the skin at the front of the neck and pull the blade out which will
prevent the head from simply "falling" on the ground (this happens in
a split second)...over time ritual suicide etiquette/procedures will
change to the point the person who commits suicide can mere point to
his stomach with a fan and the second will do his job...without the
person disemboweling himself.<<<

I've heard that in some instances, the second would be someone close to the one who is actually commiting seppuku. (like a friend or something) Because the second shows them "an act of kindness" in ending their suffering after cutting open their stomach. Have you read or heard anything similar?

For women, i've read that seppuku is a bit different and involves severing the arteries in the neck.

Btw, the pointing to the stomach with a fan, an example of that is shown in Lone Wolf and Cub when the child had to commit seppuku but had to use the fan because he was too young to use a knife to cut himself open.

----- Original Message -----
From: secretary
To: SHQ@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2004 9:56 PM
Subject: [SHQ] Topic from Wounds~Beheading Decapitation

{{{{WARNING}}}}
VERY VERY VERY
Grisly stuff ahead...leave now if you don't like this stuff

The original post from our member "Wounds"
http://p076.ezboard.com/fshinsengumiheadquartersfrm2.showMessage?topicID=48.topic

in regards to Kondou's execution

I read ~years~ ago that there is more than one way to do this

like in cutting all things with the sword you kind of concentrate on
using the first 1/3 of the blade (don't count the hilt), starting from
the tip. This has to do with the physics of the swing etc etc...the
part of the blade you want to use is really easy to see on a kendo
shinai as there is rope/leather which "bind" the bamboo and basically
divide the the blade into "parts" so to speak.

Unlike an execution, in seppuku the "second" who beheads the person
does not cut all the way through...he will cut in far enough to read
the skin at the front of the neck and pull the blade out which will
prevent the head from simply "falling" on the ground (this happens in
a split second)...over time ritual suicide etiquette/procedures will
change to the point the person who commits suicide can mere point to
his stomach with a fan and the second will do his job...without the
person disemboweling himself.

There was a detailed account I read on how in an execution the person
doing the beheading is going for a certain point on the vertebra (this
is common sense since he is cutting through...) but ~how~ one can
accomplish this is beyond me...the point is they wanted the center
between the base of the neck and shoulder...note that the best swords
can cut through 2-3 corpses (according to accounts of testing swords).

In the film Shinsengumi! BAnd of Assasins (starring Toshiro)...Kondou
holds up his poney tail so the executioner can do his job...to me that
seems weird...it would've made more sense to tie his hair up rather
than hold his hair with his hand....in anycase none of the stuff I
read really discusses the hair of the person about to be executed.

visit

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#812 [2004-05-21 08:10:27]

Re: Topic from Wounds~Beheading Decapitation

by secretarytocapt3

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Okita Souji" wrote:

> I've heard that in some instances, the second would be someone close

to the one who is actually commiting seppuku. (like a friend or
something) Because the second shows them "an act of kindness" in
ending their suffering after cutting open their stomach. Have you read
or heard anything similar?

[secretarytocapt3]
yes, I read the same thing before in several books...if a friend is a
second then he will do a "good" job and understand not to hesitate or
waver at the critical moment a secondary idea is that the person
committing suicide will not attach any ill feelings to the
second...basically everyone knows their role.

"Okita Souji"

> For women, i've read that seppuku is a bit different and involves

severing the arteries in the neck.

[secretarytocapt3]
in terms of killing women...I never read about the artery thing...all
I read was that if a man was going to execute a woman there was some
attention paid as to how she "falls". If she is kneeling...the
executioner will cut her in a way that she falls either forward on her
face or backward (I can't recall which is the right/wrong way).

but we all gotta remember that the etiquette for stuff like this can
change dramatically over the years...but I've never found like an
essay written on the topic...these details are mentioned here and
there in history books.

[Previous #810] [Next #814]

#814 [2004-05-21 08:19:31]

Re: [SHQ] Re: Topic from Wounds~Beheading Decapitation

by okitasoji

>>>in terms of killing women...I never read about the artery thing...all

I read was that if a man was going to execute a woman there was some
attention paid as to how she "falls". If she is kneeling...the
executioner will cut her in a way that she falls either forward on her
face or backward (I can't recall which is the right/wrong way).<<<
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Woops, I meant, the woman would sever her own arteries in the neck with the knife, not the second. It's something I read in a book a while back, but I don't remember what role the second has in it.

I know for men, they tucked away their kimono under their knees in in such a fashion along with placing the wooden pedestal behind and under them to prevent themselves from falling backwards. I forget if this also prevents them from falling forward as well, or makes them only fall forward.

----- Original Message -----
From: secretary
To: SHQ@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 21, 2004 8:10 AM
Subject: [SHQ] Re: Topic from Wounds~Beheading Decapitation

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Okita Souji" wrote:
> I've heard that in some instances, the second would be someone close
to the one who is actually commiting seppuku. (like a friend or
something) Because the second shows them "an act of kindness" in
ending their suffering after cutting open their stomach. Have you read
or heard anything similar?

[secretarytocapt3]
yes, I read the same thing before in several books...if a friend is a
second then he will do a "good" job and understand not to hesitate or
waver at the critical moment a secondary idea is that the person
committing suicide will not attach any ill feelings to the
second...basically everyone knows their role.

"Okita Souji"
> For women, i've read that seppuku is a bit different and involves
severing the arteries in the neck.

[secretarytocapt3]
in terms of killing women...I never read about the artery thing...all
I read was that if a man was going to execute a woman there was some
attention paid as to how she "falls". If she is kneeling...the
executioner will cut her in a way that she falls either forward on her
face or backward (I can't recall which is the right/wrong way).

but we all gotta remember that the etiquette for stuff like this can
change dramatically over the years...but I've never found like an
essay written on the topic...these details are mentioned here and
there in history books.

visit

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SHQ_Spy_Division/

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#817 [2004-05-21 08:41:21]

Re: Topic from Wounds~Beheading Decapitation

by secretarytocapt3

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Okita Souji" wrote:
Woops, I meant, the woman would sever her own arteries in the neck
with the
knife, not the second. It's something I read in a book a while back,
but I don't
remember what role the second has in it.

I know for men, they tucked away their kimono under their knees in in
such a
fashion along with placing the wooden pedestal behind and under them
to prevent
themselves from falling backwards. I forget if this also prevents them
from
falling forward as well, or makes them only fall forward.

[secretarytocapt3]

Okita don't you think it is interesting/weird as to how these beliefs
came into existence? Falling forward/backwards...the right and wrong
way to do anything is a recurring theme in Japanese martial culture.

I've read that in the scenario that a woman actually kills herself (no
second to assist)...she will plunge the dagger into her heart...I got
2 examples to help us understand
1) The Shambhala Guide to Kendo by Minoru Kiyota isbn1570629277 page 110
"General Nogi Maresuke...dressed himself in ceremonial garb and
disemboweled himself while his wife, Shizuko, pierced her heart beside
him"
2) The following scenario involves a couple of samurai which took a
castle...they searched each room and found the body of a
noblewoman...she had killed herself ...the samurai I guess removed the
knife and commented that maybe the dagger was not made by Mr. X
because all weapons knives made by Mr. X would not have been easily
damaged by bone. The gist is they thought the knife was a fake. Thus,
the point is the woman stabbed herself in such a way that it scraped
bone (sternum?rib?) in the chest area.

[Previous #814] [Next #818]

#818 [2004-05-21 08:54:26]

Re: [SHQ] Re: Topic from Wounds~Beheading Decapitation

by okitasoji

>>Okita don't you think it is interesting/weird as to how these beliefs

came into existence? Falling forward/backwards...the right and wrong
way to do anything is a recurring theme in Japanese martial culture.

I've read that in the scenario that a woman actually kills herself (no
second to assist)...she will plunge the dagger into her heart...I got
2 examples to help us understand
1) The Shambhala Guide to Kendo by Minoru Kiyota isbn1570629277 page 110
"General Nogi Maresuke...dressed himself in ceremonial garb and
disemboweled himself while his wife, Shizuko, pierced her heart beside
him"
2) The following scenario involves a couple of samurai which took a
castle...they searched each room and found the body of a
noblewoman...she had killed herself ...the samurai I guess removed the
knife and commented that maybe the dagger was not made by Mr. X
because all weapons knives made by Mr. X would not have been easily
damaged by bone. The gist is they thought the knife was a fake. Thus,
the point is the woman stabbed herself in such a way that it scraped
bone (sternum?rib?) in the chest area.<<<
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is interesting. In addition to the beliefs, I wonder when excactly these practices became more ritualized with the wearing of all white, the use of a second, the wooden pedestal, etc.

Hmm, interesting, I thought that the heart would be the hardest to pierce because of all the bone in that area. Now that my interest has been peaked i'll have to look more into the woman's side of this hehe.

One other thing I remembered, was there are a few ways to disembowel oneself that i've heard about. There'st the regular stab and cut across, but thers's others that involve manipulating the knife up or down in addition to cutting across. Sounds even more gruesome....

----- Original Message -----
From: secretary
To: SHQ@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 21, 2004 8:41 AM
Subject: [SHQ] Re: Topic from Wounds~Beheading Decapitation

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Okita Souji" wrote:
Woops, I meant, the woman would sever her own arteries in the neck
with the
knife, not the second. It's something I read in a book a while back,
but I don't
remember what role the second has in it.

I know for men, they tucked away their kimono under their knees in in
such a
fashion along with placing the wooden pedestal behind and under them
to prevent
themselves from falling backwards. I forget if this also prevents them
from
falling forward as well, or makes them only fall forward.

[secretarytocapt3]

Okita don't you think it is interesting/weird as to how these beliefs
came into existence? Falling forward/backwards...the right and wrong
way to do anything is a recurring theme in Japanese martial culture.

I've read that in the scenario that a woman actually kills herself (no
second to assist)...she will plunge the dagger into her heart...I got
2 examples to help us understand
1) The Shambhala Guide to Kendo by Minoru Kiyota isbn1570629277 page 110
"General Nogi Maresuke...dressed himself in ceremonial garb and
disemboweled himself while his wife, Shizuko, pierced her heart beside
him"
2) The following scenario involves a couple of samurai which took a
castle...they searched each room and found the body of a
noblewoman...she had killed herself ...the samurai I guess removed the
knife and commented that maybe the dagger was not made by Mr. X
because all weapons knives made by Mr. X would not have been easily
damaged by bone. The gist is they thought the knife was a fake. Thus,
the point is the woman stabbed herself in such a way that it scraped
bone (sternum?rib?) in the chest area.

visit

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SHQ_Spy_Division/

our companion list featuring fanfiction/art

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ADVERTISEMENT

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Yahoo! Groups Links

a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
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SHQ-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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#819 [2004-05-21 10:02:03]

Re: Topic from Wounds~Beheading Decapitation

by secretarytocapt3

[secretarytocapt3 apologizes for graphic nature of discussion]

There is the "u" (like way below the belly button) shaped cut, and
the "H" shaped cut (which I don't really understand or ~want~ to
envision) but there is a strong emphasis to just cut the skin and
not to cut the intestines themselves...otherwise you committed
suicide the "wrong" way. You know its really hard to go up and ask
knowledgeable people...they'll probably give you weird looks
understandably...have you searched on e-budo.com the guys there
probably discussed all scenarios and possibilities.

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Okita Souji" wrote:
One other thing I remembered, was there are a few ways to disembowel
oneself
that i've heard about. There'st the regular stab and cut across, but
thers's
others that involve manipulating the knife up or down in addition to
cutting
across. Sounds even more gruesome....

[Previous #818] [Next #821]

#821 [2004-05-21 11:06:19]

Re: Topic from Wounds~Beheading Decapitation

by mg_batt

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "secretary" wrote:

> [secretarytocapt3 apologizes for graphic nature of discussion]
>
> There is the "u" (like way below the belly button) shaped cut, and
> the "H" shaped cut (which I don't really understand or ~want~ to
> envision) but there is a strong emphasis to just cut the skin and
> not to cut the intestines themselves...otherwise you committed
> suicide the "wrong" way. You know its really hard to go up and ask
> knowledgeable people...they'll probably give you weird looks
> understandably...have you searched on e-budo.com the guys there
> probably discussed all scenarios and possibilities.
>
> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Okita Souji" wrote:
> One other thing I remembered, was there are a few ways to

disembowel

> oneself
> that i've heard about. There'st the regular stab and cut across,

but

> thers's
> others that involve manipulating the knife up or down in addition

> cutting
> across. Sounds even more gruesome....

I don't understand how cutting the intestines would be the wrong way
Sec... Did you read that somewhere? I would imagine that cutting all
the way to the stomach's intestines would mean a more assured/faster
way to die, wouldn't that be the preference or is it required that
you be conscious for as long as possible when committing seppuku?
Sounds harsh to me either way....

Okita, as for falling backwards /forwards in the country where I came
from (*wink*) the national hero (Jose Rizal) made it a point to be
executed forwards by twisting himself as he got shot (indicating he
is not a traitor) and to ensure he fell backwards towards the sky
(another symbolism of his innocence and hopes for the future). It
might be a different case, just thought you'd like to know.

[Previous #819] [Next #823]

#823 [2004-05-21 11:34:40]

Re: Topic from Wounds~Beheading Decapitation

by unsafesects

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Okita Souji" wrote:

> >>Okita don't you think it is interesting/weird as to how these

beliefs

> came into existence? Falling forward/backwards...the right and wrong
> way to do anything is a recurring theme in Japanese martial culture.
>
> I've read that in the scenario that a woman actually kills herself

(no

> second to assist)...she will plunge the dagger into her heart...I

got

>

Now, this isn't a historical reference, but Kurosawa generally did
his
research so...

I know that in "Ran", during a scene when all the women were killing
themselves, two of the ladies assisted each other by simultaneously
plunging their knives into each other's heart. I meant to watch the
playback and take notes on how the other women were killing
themselves, but I never got around to it.

Angrybee.

[Previous #821] [Next #825]

#825 [2004-05-21 14:23:28]

Re: Topic from Wounds~Beheading Decapitation

by secretarytocapt3

Oh, I'm just repeating what I've read over the years...I have no idea
why not cutting the intestines would matter or not.It would mean using
the blade to penetrate the couple of inches of skin.
Falling backwards...look up at the sky during your last seconds. hmmmm

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Grace Battista" wrote:

> I don't understand how cutting the intestines would be the wrong way
> Sec... Did you read that somewhere? I would imagine that cutting all
> the way to the stomach's intestines would mean a more assured/faster
> way to die, wouldn't that be the preference or is it required that
> you be conscious for as long as possible when committing seppuku?
> Sounds harsh to me either way....
>
> Okita, as for falling backwards /forwards in the country where I came
> from (*wink*) the national hero (Jose Rizal) made it a point to be
> executed forwards by twisting himself as he got shot (indicating he
> is not a traitor) and to ensure he fell backwards towards the sky
> (another symbolism of his innocence and hopes for the future). It
> might be a different case, just thought you'd like to know.

[Previous #823] [Next #826]

#826 [2004-05-21 14:46:54]

Re: [SHQ] Re: Topic from Wounds~Beheading Decapitation

by spiritus_saitou

My *speculation* would be that it has to do with aesthetics... it's messy enough, but would be even worse if the intestines were cut (in terms of smell and visuals)... there seems to be a lot of concern about things being neat and clean and not shaming in just about all acts. Again, that's just speculation.

phil (who remembers one too many dissection assignments in zoology)

secretary <secretarytocapt3@...> wrote:
Oh, I'm just repeating what I've read over the years...I have no idea
why not cutting the intestines would matter or not.It would mean using
the blade to penetrate the couple of inches of skin.
Falling backwards...look up at the sky during your last seconds. hmmmm

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Grace Battista" wrote:

> I don't understand how cutting the intestines would be the wrong way
> Sec... Did you read that somewhere? I would imagine that cutting all
> the way to the stomach's intestines would mean a more assured/faster
> way to die, wouldn't that be the preference or is it required that
> you be conscious for as long as possible when committing seppuku?
> Sounds harsh to me either way....
>
> Okita, as for falling backwards /forwards in the country where I came
> from (*wink*) the national hero (Jose Rizal) made it a point to be
> executed forwards by twisting himself as he got shot (indicating he
> is not a traitor) and to ensure he fell backwards towards the sky
> (another symbolism of his innocence and hopes for the future). It
> might be a different case, just thought you'd like to know.

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