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Saitou ka-mon

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#696 [2004-05-12 16:09:31]

Saitou ka-mon

by spiritus_saitou

And now for something completely different...

Do we have an image for the mon Saitou Hajime would've used? I have two possible designs for Saitou, but don't know which, if either. I take it that the one used by...uh... "sec" on the message board is the one he used as Fujita? Just out of curiosity, where did that image come from and are we sure it's the design he used? (I thought I remembered a post either here or the mb about accessing images of mon... where did it go??)

phil (currently overhauling one of my sites... finally)
P.S. secretarytocapt3, you can delete the senna pics. I'm going to take down the entry and repost when we get things cleared up with our isp. The anniversary is passed and the need less urgent. Many, many thanks!


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[Next #697]

#697 [2004-05-12 17:33:34]

Re: Saitou ka-mon

by secretarytocapt3

No, it seems that we don't have a kamon for the Yamaguchi
household...we just have one for the Fujita household which is my pic
on www.shinsengumimb.com...
http://www.miburo.com also has a pic which seems to be a scan from
Shizuko Akama's book.
The pic of Fujita Goro's 2nd son also has the son wearing a haori with
the same kamon as well and the haori which belonged to Fujita G. also
has the same design (you have to scan the pic and zooooom in to see it).
MissB/Warg and I discussed the possible symbolic meaning of the bamboo
leaves, the number 9 and the three diamonds which appear in the
designs negative space at www.shinsengumimb.com.
I'm pretty sure Fujita G. used the kamon because of the reasons
mentioned above and it is also one of the symbols used in a
Shinsengumi chapter newsletter (and we all know how serious those
people are).

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, spiritus saitou wrote:
> And now for something completely different...
>
> Do we have an image for the mon Saitou Hajime would've used? I have
two possible designs for Saitou, but don't know which, if either. I
take it that the one used by...uh... "sec" on the message board is the
one he used as Fujita? Just out of curiosity, where did that image
come from and are we sure it's the design he used? (I thought I
remembered a post either here or the mb about accessing images of
mon... where did it go??)
>
> phil (currently overhauling one of my sites... finally)
> P.S. secretarytocapt3, you can delete the senna pics. I'm going to
take down the entry and repost when we get things cleared up with our
isp. The anniversary is passed and the need less urgent. Many, many
thanks!
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Movies - Buy advance tickets for 'Shrek 2'
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #696] [Next #698]

#698 [2004-05-12 17:48:12]

Re: [SHQ] Re: Saitou ka-mon

by spiritus_saitou

I wasn't thinking of the Yamaguchi mon... the *Saitou* mon. If you'd run across it, I'm sure you would've said. I'm going to use one of the two designs for "Saitou" until someone can tell me it's something else and also the one you use for Fujita. (I was wondering why the mon was bamboo and not wisteria... will have to hunt up that discussion... ) Anyway, the mon are part of the new layout for the Visions site. I'll make some comment about them so if someone knows, they can correct the error.

Thanks!
phil

secretary <secretarytocapt3@...> wrote:
No, it seems that we don't have a kamon for the Yamaguchi
household...we just have one for the Fujita household which is my pic
on www.shinsengumimb.com...
http://www.miburo.com also has a pic which seems to be a scan from
Shizuko Akama's book.
The pic of Fujita Goro's 2nd son also has the son wearing a haori with
the same kamon as well and the haori which belonged to Fujita G. also
has the same design (you have to scan the pic and zooooom in to see it).
MissB/Warg and I discussed the possible symbolic meaning of the bamboo
leaves, the number 9 and the three diamonds which appear in the
designs negative space at www.shinsengumimb.com.
I'm pretty sure Fujita G. used the kamon because of the reasons
mentioned above and it is also one of the symbols used in a
Shinsengumi chapter newsletter (and we all know how serious those
people are).

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, spiritus saitou wrote:
> And now for something completely different...
>
> Do we have an image for the mon Saitou Hajime would've used? I have
two possible designs for Saitou, but don't know which, if either. I
take it that the one used by...uh... "sec" on the message board is the
one he used as Fujita? Just out of curiosity, where did that image
come from and are we sure it's the design he used? (I thought I
remembered a post either here or the mb about accessing images of
mon... where did it go??)
>
> phil (currently overhauling one of my sites... finally)
> P.S. secretarytocapt3, you can delete the senna pics. I'm going to
take down the entry and repost when we get things cleared up with our
isp. The anniversary is passed and the need less urgent. Many, many
thanks!
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Movies - Buy advance tickets for 'Shrek 2'
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Previous #697] [Next #699]

#699 [2004-05-12 18:21:05]

Re: Saitou ka-mon

by secretarytocapt3

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, spiritus saitou wrote:
> I wasn't thinking of the Yamaguchi mon... the *Saitou* mon.

*never found Saitou mon...even paused to see split second Saitou
appearance in the film Bakumatsu Monoga...during the movie to see if
he had kamon on his clothing....(in other films you can clearly see
Kondo+Hijikata's kamon)

(I was wondering why the mon was bamboo and not wisteria... will have
to hunt up that discussion... )

*there are many reasons why bamboo would be a good choice
http://pub16.ezboard.com/fshinsengumiheadquartersfrm17.showMessage?topicID=5.topic
and we were good too...cited all websites:)

*nine...for the number of bamboo leaves by the way REALLY is
unlucky...I asked a Japanese student and that was her first
impression...but again superstitions/beliefs change over time

*I just thought is was interesting...once he gets his new Fujita last
name does he get a package "this is your new family" package complete
with crest, name etc...

[Previous #698] [Next #702]

#702 [2004-05-12 22:44:19]

Re: [SHQ] Re: Saitou ka-mon

by okitasoji

I'll check Shinsengumi Keppuroku, I believe in the ep that Hijikata sends Saitou to infiltrate the Itou group you see a shot of his mon. I'll see if I can screencap it later. I checked my volumes of Kaze Hikaru manga and it seems that it's the bamboo design as well. I'll scann that and out it up. Oddly enough, Kaze Hikaru has shots of almost every captain's mon which is where I initially found the mon for Okita. Harada's mon is similar to Kondo's but with only one horizontal bar.

Out of curiosity, why would his kamon have been wisteria?

Note: Oddly enough, the biohazard sign used in our modern world was actually a family crest according to this small book I have.

----- Original Message -----
From: secretary
To: SHQ@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 6:21 PM
Subject: [SHQ] Re: Saitou ka-mon


--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, spiritus saitou wrote:
> I wasn't thinking of the Yamaguchi mon... the *Saitou* mon.

*never found Saitou mon...even paused to see split second Saitou
appearance in the film Bakumatsu Monoga...during the movie to see if
he had kamon on his clothing....(in other films you can clearly see
Kondo+Hijikata's kamon)

(I was wondering why the mon was bamboo and not wisteria... will have
to hunt up that discussion... )

*there are many reasons why bamboo would be a good choice
http://pub16.ezboard.com/fshinsengumiheadquartersfrm17.showMessage?topicID=5.topic
and we were good too...cited all websites:)

*nine...for the number of bamboo leaves by the way REALLY is
unlucky...I asked a Japanese student and that was her first
impression...but again superstitions/beliefs change over time

*I just thought is was interesting...once he gets his new Fujita last
name does he get a package "this is your new family" package complete
with crest, name etc...



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[Previous #699] [Next #705]

#705 [2004-05-12 23:46:54]

Re: [SHQ] Re: Saitou ka-mon

by spiritus_saitou

Okita Souji <okita_souji@...> wrote:
>>Out of curiosity, why would his kamon have been wisteria? <<

My understanding is that "fuji" means "wisteria." That's why I connected wisteria with the Fujita mon... simply because of the meaning of the name itself.

Thanks for all the info!!!

phil


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[Previous #702] [Next #706]

#706 [2004-05-13 00:09:45]

Re: [SHQ] Re: Saitou ka-mon

by okitasoji

No prob.

Ahh ok, that makes sense now. Thanks for clearing that up. ^_^.

----- Original Message -----
From: spiritus saitou
To: SHQ@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 11:46 PM
Subject: Re: [SHQ] Re: Saitou ka-mon


Okita Souji <okita_souji@...> wrote:
>>Out of curiosity, why would his kamon have been wisteria? <<

My understanding is that "fuji" means "wisteria." That's why I connected wisteria with the Fujita mon... simply because of the meaning of the name itself.

Thanks for all the info!!!

phil


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[Previous #705] [Next #708]

#708 [2004-05-13 01:22:05]

Re: [SHQ] Re: Saitou ka-mon

by warg3791

In a message dated 5/13/2004 2:46:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, spiritus_saitou@... writes:

> My understanding is that "fuji" means "wisteria." That's why I connected wisteria with the Fujita mon... simply because
> of the meaning of the name itself.

LOL! That WOULD have been a better mon for him! Have you ever dealt with wisteria?! That stuff is almost IMPOSSIBLE to kill!
Sort of like our man Saito!

-MissBehavin

[Previous #706] [Next #709]

#709 [2004-05-13 07:58:09]

Re: Saitou ka-mon

by secretarytocapt3

Okita, I posted those 2 links you added over at shinsengumimb.com
I skimmed Kaze Hikaru (just whatever we have translated so far and the
steamy Saitou Hajime Love Story) and it shows a kamon on his haori but
no close ups ... is this from later issues?

It does seem weird for Saitou not to have a kamon...so thanx for doing
the research for us :P
--------------------------------------------
For anyone who has not done so already
Saitou Hajime Love Story
Mandatory Download...only 3.69MB
www.fifay.net/projects/lovestory01.html

All of Kaze Hikaru so far translated courtesy of Okita
http://www.streamload.com/secretarytocapt3
filename "khcomplete.zip"
password makoto

[Previous #708] [Next #710]

#710 [2004-05-13 08:26:57]

Re: [SHQ] Re: Saitou ka-mon

by kallipygia13

I thought I read on a web page that "Saitou" meant "divine wisteria" -- was that incorrect?

Kalli

Okita Souji <okita_souji@...> wrote:
No prob.

Ahh ok, that makes sense now. Thanks for clearing that up. ^_^.

----- Original Message -----
From: spiritus saitou
To: SHQ@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 11:46 PM
Subject: Re: [SHQ] Re: Saitou ka-mon


Okita Souji wrote:
>>Out of curiosity, why would his kamon have been wisteria? <<

My understanding is that "fuji" means "wisteria." That's why I connected wisteria with the Fujita mon... simply because of the meaning of the name itself.

Thanks for all the info!!!

phil


---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Movies - Buy advance tickets for 'Shrek 2'

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Previous #709] [Next #712]

#712 [2004-05-13 15:27:42]

Re: [SHQ] Re: Saitou ka-mon

by okitasoji

Sec,

Check the kamon section on our message board. I posted a closeup image from Kaze Hikaru of his kamon.

Okita


----- Original Message -----
From: secretary
To: SHQ@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 7:58 AM
Subject: [SHQ] Re: Saitou ka-mon


Okita, I posted those 2 links you added over at shinsengumimb.com
I skimmed Kaze Hikaru (just whatever we have translated so far and the
steamy Saitou Hajime Love Story) and it shows a kamon on his haori but
no close ups ... is this from later issues?

It does seem weird for Saitou not to have a kamon...so thanx for doing
the research for us :P
--------------------------------------------
For anyone who has not done so already
Saitou Hajime Love Story
Mandatory Download...only 3.69MB
www.fifay.net/projects/lovestory01.html

All of Kaze Hikaru so far translated courtesy of Okita
http://www.streamload.com/secretarytocapt3
filename "khcomplete.zip"
password makoto



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[Previous #710] [Next #715]

#715 [2004-05-13 17:28:16]

Re: [SHQ] Re: Saitou ka-mon

by saitohworship

I agree with you there, Kalli. of course, I only read Chinese, but I thought that 'Sai' means divine, while 'tou' means wisteria/bamboo. I've never seen the kanji for Fujita so I wouldn't know what the name means, tho. Can anyone besides Masayoshi answer this question, since he seems kind of busy at the moment?

~SaitohWorship

Kalli <kallipygia@...> wrote:
I thought I read on a web page that "Saitou" meant "divine wisteria" -- was that incorrect?

Kalli

Okita Souji <okita_souji@...> wrote:
No prob.

Ahh ok, that makes sense now. Thanks for clearing that up. ^_^.

----- Original Message -----
From: spiritus saitou
To: SHQ@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 11:46 PM
Subject: Re: [SHQ] Re: Saitou ka-mon


Okita Souji wrote:
>>Out of curiosity, why would his kamon have been wisteria? <<

My understanding is that "fuji" means "wisteria." That's why I connected wisteria with the Fujita mon... simply because of the meaning of the name itself.

Thanks for all the info!!!

phil


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Saitoh Worship
~Anime Mystique~


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[Previous #712] [Next #716]

#716 [2004-05-13 18:34:25]

Fujita Kanji

by secretarytocapt3

You can see the kanji here...just set font to Japanese
http://www.3-hajime.com/fujitake.html

OT: You all hear about the re-telling of Romance of the 3 Kingdoms
"Ravages of Time"...from the point of view of the sima clan?

I always thought about how romance of the 3 kingdoms was similar to
the bakumatsu...I guess this means Dynasty Warriors 4 will get another
surge in sales...

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, GCW wrote:
I've never seen the kanji for Fujita so I wouldn't know what the
name means, tho.
>

[Previous #715] [Next #717]

#717 [2004-05-13 19:14:08]

Re: [SHQ] Fujita Kanji

by saitohworship

oh ... so both "toh" from Saitoh and "Fuji" are the same kanji ... why the heck are they pronounced differently then?! Japanese is waaay too confusing ^^;;; It explains a lot tho...

secretary <secretarytocapt3@...> wrote:You can see the kanji here...just set font to Japanese
http://www.3-hajime.com/fujitake.html

OT: You all hear about the re-telling of Romance of the 3 Kingdoms
"Ravages of Time"...from the point of view of the sima clan?

I always thought about how romance of the 3 kingdoms was similar to
the bakumatsu...I guess this means Dynasty Warriors 4 will get another
surge in sales...

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, GCW wrote:
I've never seen the kanji for Fujita so I wouldn't know what the
name means, tho.
>



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Saitoh Worship
~Anime Mystique~


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[Previous #716] [Next #726]

#726 [2004-05-14 22:39:03]

Re: Re: Re: Saitou ka-mon

by serizawakamo

Fuji: Wisteria(?). "Tou" is the "Chinese" way
(actually, a Japanese way to pronouncing the Chinese
pronunciation) for "Fuji", which is a 100% Japanese
way of reading it.
Ta: Farm (actually, the original meaning is rice
plantation)

Go: five
Rou: man


Serizawa Kamo


> Subject: Re: Re: Saitou ka-mon
>
> I agree with you there, Kalli. of course, I only
> read Chinese, but I thought that 'Sai' means divine,
> while 'tou' means wisteria/bamboo. I've never seen
> the kanji for Fujita so I wouldn't know what the
> name means, tho. Can anyone besides Masayoshi
> answer this question, since he seems kind of busy at
> the moment?
>
> ~SaitohWorship






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[Previous #717] [Next #792]

#792 [2004-05-20 15:57:34]

Definition of Saitou from Momoiro-usagi more info

by secretarytocapt3

[from momoiro-usagi via email]

This mail is about [Question on meaning "Saitou"].

I worry about the ability to explain to you well.

>Many friends study meaning of family name "Saitou" Definition is
"divine wisteria". True?

It of the meaning of kanji is a correct answer.
However, a family name of Japan may have the historical origin.
A Japanese kanji has the pronunciation from which some kinds are
different in one character.
"wisteria" has the pronunciation of "tou" and "fuji".
Although you will probably know, "tou" of "Saitou" and "Fuji" of
"Fujita" are the same characters(=wisteria).

First of all, please bear it in mind.

There are many family names which "tou" attaches in Japan.
Saitou, Satou, Katou, Itou, etc.
(A character called this "tou" is changed into "dou" depending on the
case.
"dou" of "Kondou" is also "wisteria". There are other family names,
such as Andou, Shindou, and Kudou.)
The family name of these "tou" is considered to be the posterity of
Fujiwara of the aristocrat of
the Heian period (From A.D. 794 to A.D. 1192) . "Fuji" of "Fujiwara" =
"wisteria".
The Fujiwara clan had huge power in the Imperial Court. And they got
various court ranks.
There was a status called "Saiou".
This is the duty which serves the goddess of the Ise Shrine as the
Emperor's representative.
The Emperor family's unmarried woman is chosen and she becomes "Saiou".
The castle in which "Saiou" lives was called "Saiguu".
There, it was also the public office for "Saiou".
The director general of "Saiguu" was called "Saiguu no kashira".
The origin of the family name of "Saitou" is "Fujiwara" which acquired
the status of "saiguu no kasira".
"Sai" of "Saiguu no kashira" + "Fuji(=tou)" of "Fujiwara".

However, since Saitou Hajime changed the family name, it is not
applied to this.
"Yamaguchi" which is the true family name of Saitou means it as the
entrance of a mountain.
Yama = Mountain + guchi(=kuchi) = Although it is originally the
meaning of a "mouth", it is an "entrance" in this case.
Probably, his ancestor would be related to the land.

[secretarytocapt3 read somewhere that his mother was a
farmer...perhaps totally unrelated]

It was easy to change a family name a long time ago.
Now, the family name of "tou" is hardly related to "Fujiwara".

Supplement:
Why Yamaguchi Hajime chose Saitou as the assumed name does not remain
in record.
In a report, the expert of the sword of a family name called Saitou is
in sword style "Mugai-ryuu" which he studied,
and it is said that it became a basis.

[secretarytocapt3 reminder...babelfish translates mugai-ryu as No
outer form or "Outside style nothing" as Serizawa Kamo used to
mention the iaido of mugai-ryu is active today (they have websites)]

Although remembered in the talk of a family name, it sometimes sees
analyzing the kanji of the name of characters at the site of RK.
In fact, if it is Japanese RK fan, there is a certain fact which all
the members almost know.
Most family names of the characters who appear in RK originate in the
name of a place of Niigata Prefecture which is the hometown of Watsuki
Nobuhiro.

Kamiya, Nagaoka, Sanjyou, Tsubame, Tsukioka, Tsunan, Isurugi,
Makimachi, Mishima, Kashiwazaki, Kujiranami, etc.
These are a city in Niigata Prefecture, and the name of an area.

"Yuukyuuzan" is the Yuukyuu mountain.

"Sadojima" is the Sado island.

"Yahiko" is the Yahiko shrine.
"myoujin" which is the family name of Yahiko is the title of God of
Shintoism.

http://www2.pref.niigata.jp/kankou/en_sight.nsf/31114b4c20e7417c49256a1c0020319e/cc5a9b75376ea64149256a2c002e18bc?OpenDocument


"Aoshi" is the Aoshi shrine.
Neighboring residents call this area "Aoshi no mori". (Woods of Aoshi.)
Aoshi no mori > Aoshi shi no mori > Aoshi shino mori > Aoshi shinomori
> Shinomori Aoshi........hehehe.

http://www2.pref.niigata.jp/kankou/en_sight.nsf/31114b4c20e7417c49256a1c0020319e/05828c27e840b15949256a2c002e42b6?OpenDocument

The reply of yesterday's mail is written independently later.

Good-bye .
P.S.
Shinsengumi Themed Merchandising, Promo, wishlist and WHAT IF? >
Forget the Beer, try the wine!

Although the wine of a site which Warg3791 looked at is a name of
"Yukari no hito"(Those who are related to Hakodate),
there is wine of a more fearful name in Hakodate.
With red wine, the name is "Hijikata Toshizou no chi"(Blood of
Hijikata Toshizou).
Although I have it, I am fearful and am not drinking.

http://www.ne.jp/asahi/harinotubuyaki/kyoya-rui/image/hatago/hakodate2.html
(There is nothing at my site. )

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, Serizawa Kamo wrote:
> Fuji: Wisteria(?). "Tou" is the "Chinese" way
> (actually, a Japanese way to pronouncing the Chinese
> pronunciation) for "Fuji", which is a 100% Japanese
> way of reading it.
> Ta: Farm (actually, the original meaning is rice
> plantation)
>
> Go: five
> Rou: man
>
>
> Serizawa Kamo

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