Identification and aliases

How did one prove who they were during the Bakumatsu in the absence of
the type of photo ID we have now?

If you relied upon verification from friends and relatives what did you
do if you had none around? What if they turned against you and all
decided to vouch that you were _not_ who you really were?

--
Barbara Sheridan
http://www.barbarasheridan.net

They used the letter of recommendation system it seems, but my
examples come from early 19th century in regards to young men being
sent to study at schools far from home and the martial arts world
used, and still uses this system today. In Remembering Aizu, which I
don't have on me this moment, I believe the author as a young man had
guardians, he had a couple of people who were kind to him, who wrote
letters on his behalf for him to carry. Miss B, you have this book
right? Do you remember?

What an interesting question:)

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Sheridan wrote:
> How did one prove who they were during the Bakumatsu in the absence of
> the type of photo ID we have now?
>
> If you relied upon verification from friends and relatives what did
you
> do if you had none around? What if they turned against you and all
> decided to vouch that you were _not_ who you really were?
>
> --
> Barbara Sheridan
> http://www.barbarasheridan.net

Oops, if you had a letter of recommendation you would have to give to
whoever was at the destination (school/dojo) and you wouldn't be able
to retain it I think.

I just recall from watching lots and lots of chambara you need
permission letters to leave and enter domains...so perhaps this
document is something you would always have handy even if it "expired"
I presume and this document could vouch for who you are.

Tiffany wrote:

>Oops, if you had a letter of recommendation you would have to give to
>whoever was at the destination (school/dojo) and you wouldn't be able
>to retain it I think.
>
>I just recall from watching lots and lots of chambara you need
>permission letters to leave and enter domains...so perhaps this
>document is something you would always have handy even if it "expired"
>I presume and this document could vouch for who you are.
>
>
>

It's good to know that the idea that came to me when I first considered
the question wasn't so far off, but now I wonder if that was for women
as well as men or did women have to have a man (husband, father,
brother) vouch for them as it were.

And I would suppose it's safe to assume that if you were asked to
produce your documentation and didn't have it that you were in serious
trouble?

--
Barbara Sheridan
http://www.barbarasheridan.net

Barbara Sheridan <bsher213@...> wrote:

>>And I would suppose it's safe to assume that if you were asked to produce your documentation and didn't have it that you were in serious trouble?<<

I think we here know that it meant more than serious trouble if you were entering Kyoto during the bakumatsu. :-D No papers, no mercy... courtesy of the Wolves of Mibu.

phil


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yeah, Spiritus_Saitou, can you imagine fumbling for your travel
passport document thingy with Hijikata staring at you...he'd probably
put a lantern up to your face too...much, MUCH worst than being pulled
over and not having your driver's license

women...alot of chambara show upper class women being escorted by male
servants/retainers so maybe these people carried the paperwork?

I babelfished a new 3-hajime.com article for Miss B
http://p076.ezboard.com/fshinsengumiheadquartersfrm17.showMessage?topicID=12.topic
which demonstrates the importance of family registers...I wonder if
families kept more than one copy of these things...like every adult
had an official copy or something...anyways the article/post is really
interesting because it has a detailed timeline of post Aizu pre Tokyo
AND how Fujita Goro accompanied Matsudaira to Tokyo (bodyguard
probably)...check it out:)

In a message dated 5/1/2004 1:15:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tnamwong@... writes:

> They used the letter of recommendation system it seems, but my
> examples come from early 19th century in regards to young men being
> sent to study at schools far from home and the martial arts world
> used, and still uses this system today. In Remembering Aizu, which I
> don't have on me this moment, I believe the author as a young man had
> guardians, he had a couple of people who were kind to him, who wrote
> letters on his behalf for him to carry. Miss B, you have this book
> right? Do you remember?
>
> What an interesting question:)
>
> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Sheridan wrote:
> > How did one prove who they were during the Bakumatsu in the absence of
> > the type of photo ID we have now?
> >
> > If you relied upon verification from friends and relatives what did
> you
> > do if you had none around? What if they turned against
> you and all
> > decided to vouch that you were _not_ who you really were?
> >
> > --
> > Barbara Sheridan
> > http://www.barbarasheridan.net

Sorry it took me so long to reply. EVIL JOB. Anyway, I've only had a chance to glance through the book, but it mentions that he got two men to act as his "guarantors". Then he had to go to the prefectural branch office to fill out some sort of forms that would allow him to go to Tokyo.

-MissBehavin

Hi!

If you have access to "Blade of the Immortal", I would suggest
reading vol. 7 & 8, for more information on that topic. The story
happens a few years before the Bakumatsu, although the specific time
is not given.

In those volumes, the main characters have to leave their province
to go to another one, and they can't pass the check points if they
don't have the right authorisations provided by an official.
Although, it seems that you could try to steal someone else's
authorisation or you could go through the check points without
showing any papers if your house was located near the border.

Such people could hence come and go freely. Apparently, still
according to "Blade of the Immortal", these citizens could also try
to help , in exchange of money, others to cross the border,
pretending that they were their nephew or brother in law, and help
them get through the check points without having to provide any
papers. But it was very risky…

But apparently, as long as you remained on the same side of the
border, no one would ever ask you your papers. So, the risky thing
was mainly the check points.

That's what you can see in "Blade of the Immortal", but I don't know
if the information is 100% reliable.

Mary-Ann (^-^)

I know that it would be be downright foolhardy to travel cluelessly with
no papers and such but I'm wondering if it's at least in the vague realm
of possibility for a young woman (late teens) alone in Kyoto to keep
her head intact should she run into someone who finds her "suspicious"

She has made the acquaintance of a couple Shinsengumi members so she's
feasibly safe from them, but I wonder if the other patrol groups would
cut her any kind of slack especially if she mentioned said Shinsengumi
acquaintances as being able to prove who she is.

--
Barbara Sheridan

http://www.barbarasheridan.net

OH, yeah...she could say drop a name and name and say...
"hasn't Hijikata spoken of me? (pout) He was with me just the other
day/night..."
blah blah blah
I'm sure they would cut her some slack then

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Sheridan wrote:
> I know that it would be be downright foolhardy to travel cluelessly
with
> no papers and such but I'm wondering if it's at least in the vague
realm
> of possibility for a young woman (late teens) alone in Kyoto to keep
> her head intact should she run into someone who finds her "suspicious"
>
> She has made the acquaintance of a couple Shinsengumi members so she's
> feasibly safe from them, but I wonder if the other patrol groups would
> cut her any kind of slack especially if she mentioned said Shinsengumi
> acquaintances as being able to prove who she is.
>
> --
> Barbara Sheridan
>
> http://www.barbarasheridan.net

Tiffany wrote:

>OH, yeah...she could say drop a name and name and say...
>"hasn't Hijikata spoken of me? (pout) He was with me just the other
>day/night..."
>blah blah blah
>I'm sure they would cut her some slack then
>
>

Unless Hijikata chooses to remember how she dumped a full chamber pot on
him....LOL

--
Barbara Sheridan

http://www.barbarasheridan.net

In a message dated 5/2/2004 12:28:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bsher213@... writes:

> Tiffany wrote:
>
> >OH, yeah...she could say drop a name and name and say...
> >"hasn't Hijikata spoken of me? (pout) He was with me just the other
> >day/night..."
> >blah blah blah
> >I'm sure they would cut her some slack then
> >
> >
> Unless Hijikata chooses to remember how she dumped a full
> chamber pot on
> him....LOL
>
> --
> Barbara Sheridan

Yes, I don't think he'd be very happy about vouching for someone who did that. In fact, he might even decide to put in a bad word for her! You could have her mention Yamanami maybe.

I don't know how far back it's supposed to be set, but in the movie Seven Samurai one of the men was not a true samurai. He had stolen papers from someone else to try to convice others that he was though. The problem he encountered was that the papers in question belonged to a ten year old boy!

I suppose she could do the same thing Barb. Just make sure she swipes the papers of someone her own age! Wait! Better yet, have her swipe some papers, get caught by Okita and taken to Hijikata, and he examines them and informs her they're recipes! That would be my luck!

-MissBehavin