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What was Itou's reason for leaving??

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#592 [2004-04-28 15:12:11]

What was Itou's reason for leaving??

by spiritus_saitou

I'm just now realizing I'm not sure I know why Itou and his group left. Is there a good (non-Japanese-needing-to-be-babelfished) web source?

I got to thinking about it after Tiffany speculated that Suzuki needed to be reconciled to accepting the emperor and imperialist government. I had always *assumed* he accepted that because of his participation in the Sekihoutai, and I think by association because of his brother's departure from the Shinsengumi. I think I also *assumed* Itou's argument had to do with a departure from bakufu policies.

Sorry if the information is staring me in the face somewhere...

phil


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#593 [2004-04-28 15:34:21]

Re: What was Itou's reason for leaving??

by secretarytocapt3

Hmmm...Serizawa Kamo's site doesn't go into detail.
O.k. since you don't want to go fishing this is all we know in English...
he was a lit/hist. teacher...brainy guy who was also Toudou Heisuke's
teacher...is it me or Itou's role seems to be blurred as "book"
teacher -and- martial arts because "somewhere" out there it is
mentioned that Itou had his own dojo

there are no English sites that go into detail about Itou

[fictional] explanations
*Mibugishiden...Itou wanted to join the imperialists because he
assumed that he and his group would not only be paid more but they
would get high ranks in the new government

*Shinsengumi!:Band of Assasins....Itou (who was invited by Kondou to
join the group) had "new" ideas and he says "you have to think why you
are cutting/killing the Ishin Shishi" (members of the Shinsengumi gasp
in astonishment)...Itou in the movie writes to Kondou and tells him to
dissolve the Shinsengumi...when he leaves he tells Kondou that he
didn't mean to start a faction but he will help monitor the enemy and
report info back ---but that didn't happen

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, spiritus saitou wrote:
> I'm just now realizing I'm not sure I know why Itou and his group
left. Is there a good (non-Japanese-needing-to-be-babelfished) web
source?

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#594 [2004-04-28 16:03:21]

Re: [SHQ] What was Itou's reason for leaving??

by bsher213

I'm may be wrong but I always thought Itou wanted out because of
Hijikata's hard a$$ attitude with the unbreakable rules and I think that
the assassination/seppuku of Yamanami was sort of the breaking point
that made them decide to go.

--
Barbara Sheridan

http://www.barbarasheridan.net

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#595 [2004-04-28 16:07:46]

Re: [SHQ] What was Itou's reason for leaving??

by okitasoji

Another intepretation in Shinsengumi Keppuroku, is that Yamanami was used as a catalyst by Itou in breaking up the Shinsengumi. It's been a while since i've watch that series, but I think Itou's group hated Hijikata and also planned to kill him.



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#599 [2004-04-28 17:59:50]

Re: [SHQ] Re: What was Itou's reason for leaving??

by spiritus_saitou

Tiffany <tnamwong@...> wrote:

>>Hmmm...Serizawa Kamo's site doesn't go into detail. <<

Yeah, I know... which is why I asked. SK's site is the first thing I usually check whenever I have a question (THANK YOU, Serizawa Kamo!!)

>>O.k. since you don't want to go fishing this is all we know in English... <<

It's really not that I don't want to go fishing, but that very little comes out of it with any certainty. I end up with more questions than I started out with, which isn't actually a bad thing except I have no way of answering those questions, many of the answers of which are staring me straight in the face and I simply can't decipher. There is something very interesting going on with Suzuki's early life that I can't make head nor tail of in the babelfish translation... it's actually more frustrating than knowing nothing at all. Worse than Tantalus and the grapes and water. :-D

>>he was a lit/hist. teacher...brainy guy who was also Toudou Heisuke's
teacher...is it me or Itou's role seems to be blurred as "book"
teacher -and- martial arts because "somewhere" out there it is
mentioned that Itou had his own dojo<<

*Something* like this is mentioned on the site you gave us today, but I'm not sure (again) exactly what they're getting at:

"Kaei February of 5, death of the father. As for older brother Okura the younger brother, the multi gates succeeded the private school because that time already you had become the disciple of the Ito school in Edo.
But, still as for the multi gates of the child as for study being able to finish ahead of time, "as for the man for martial arts should strive", that the "camphor tree multi gate circles" and so on with the flag which is written
You say that everyday the children and it had gone to war the your �� densely and so on."

>>there are no English sites that go into detail about Itou<<

sigh... why am I not surprised...
>>[fictional] explanations
*Mibugishiden...Itou wanted to join the imperialists because he
assumed that he and his group would not only be paid more but they would get high ranks in the new government

*Shinsengumi!:Band of Assasins....Itou (who was invited by Kondou to join the group) had "new" ideas and he says "you have to think why you are cutting/killing the Ishin Shishi" (members of the Shinsengumi gasp in astonishment)...Itou in the movie writes to Kondou and tells him to dissolve the Shinsengumi...when he leaves he tells Kondou that he
didn't mean to start a faction but he will help monitor the enemy and report info back ---but that didn't happen<<

Neither is very satisfying. I think from somewhere I picked up the notion it was more along the lines of what was presented in "Band of Assassins," but not with the "friendly" overtones of retaining any contact, that it was more antagonistic. Don't have a clue where I got that idea, though...

I'm really aggravated with myself because I've never once stopped to think about why Suzuki would've join the Sekihoutai or that Itou's departure didn't have to mean he believed in the Ishin Shishi cause, that he could've still held bakufu loyalties, although wasn't Satsuma allied with Choshu by this time (1867) and it sounds like Itou was connected to the Satsuma feudal clan (or maybe that was just to whom Suzuki turned after the assassination)? It's beginning to become entangled with questions I have about Sagara before the war and his association with the Mito clan and why he had to stop fighting for them... these changes in loyalties mixed with the subtle philosophical differences/factions that arose on both sides... it gets so delightfully confusing. Geez... I think I need to start creating some tables before I'm impossibly lost.



phil (feeling very much like Sano right now when he was punching down trees in the forest... aggravated and lost)


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#629 [2004-04-30 15:22:18]

Re: What was Itou's reason for leaving?? + TENMA

by secretarytocapt3

-------
Itou
-------
I posted relevant links here
http://p076.ezboard.com/fshinsengumiheadquartersfrm17.showMessage?topicID=21.topic

but the most intriguing link is
www.1to5.net/saito/history/sumiya.html
It is worth fishing because the author believes that this event was
the beginning of the Itou Affair because it seems that Saitou was
"placed" with the group and it was occasion where he could get close
to the group. Note: Miki was there too.

-------
Tenma
-------
I have been trying my best to make sense of the Tenma House Incident
http://p076.ezboard.com/fshinsengumiheadquartersfrm17.showMessage?topicID=22.topic
Yep, Saitou was a lucky man...at the same time this incident clearly
points to the fact that these guys had to wear their chainmail
wherever they went even to parties

If the links get all messed up there at http://www.shinsengumimb.com
under the Shinsengumi History Thread

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