SHQ - RED CLIFF (movie) and Kondou Isami

#3337 [2008-02-20 10:48:25]

RED CLIFF (movie) and Kondou Isami

by secretarytocapt3

This post is connected to
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SHQ/message/2751

John Woo's upcoming film RED CLIFF (set at the disintegration of the
Han dynasty)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0425637/
is a depiction of the most famous episode in the Chinese epic Romance
of the Three Kingdoms (ROTK). You can read online classic
translations of ROTK, read summaries in Chinese literature books or
just play any one of the famous DYNASTY WARRIOR vid games.

ROTK was/is not only beloved in China but also Korea, Japan and even
entered Southeast Asia a couple hundred years ago (in the form of
stage plays/operas/puppet shows).

I'm posting about RED CLIFF
here is the trailer http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=Rbx9oPfFNFs (Takeshi
Kaneshiro as Zhuge Liang and Andy Lau as Zhou Yu)
because it's the easiest and least time consuming way for Shinsengumi
fans to be acquainted with what Kondou Isami loved, ROTK, and
especially the character of Guan Yu, known for his loyalty. We've
mentioned in the past that Kondou's love of Guan Yu is interesting
because of the way Guan Yu is captured and eventually executed
(classic case of a great hero's fall) and it's almost foreshadowing
Kondou's own fate. In the trailer you can see Guan Yu at 0:48.

What I like about the trailer is that it doesn't seem fancy and artsy
like HERO or THE BANQUET or HOUSE OF FLYING DAGGERS. ROTK is none of
those things and the story would not have any staying power of the
centuries if it was "boring". I hope RED CLIFF will do its part to
introduce one of the greatest works of historical fiction to the west.

Aside from the eery parallels between Guan Yu and Kondou Isami....ROTK
is THE TEMPLATE or prophetic narrative of how empires and governments,
modern and ancient, fall. Think about it...Three Kingdoms and the
division of China into major factions and the parallel between the end
of the Tokugawa shogunate. The Three Kingdoms of China also had
shifting alliances to neutralize the third party and all negotiations
fluctuated over time. It's just like the major feuds of Japan vying
for power in Kyoto.

[Next #3338]

#3338 [2008-02-20 11:06:43]

Re: RED CLIFF (movie) and Kondou Isami

by secretarytocapt3

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "secretary" wrote:

[correction] I meant Tony Leung...NOT Andy Lau
my bad (^_^)
I always get those two names mixed up

[Previous #3337] [Next #3412]

#3412 [2008-07-12 19:32:57]

Re: RED CLIFF (movie) and Kondou Isami

by secretarytocapt3

If the Shinsengumi were here today---they'd have already purchased
tickets to RED CLIFF. Then again many a warlord, administrator,
Confucian scholar, daimyo and most of the Imperialist guys would all
line up to see this film:

http://www.angryasianman.com/2008/07/john-woos-red-cliff-finally-
arrives.html

I saw the 8 minute promo reel. You'll enjoy the scenes after 4:00
onwards. The character of Guan Yu, Kondou's fav chara, is shown more
in the 8 min. segment too.

You'll love it. The music has some sort of weird Jo Hisaishi influence (I
wonder if he worked on the film). I think there is some Japanese money
invested in this movie clearly---and Shidou Nakamura stars in it as well.

And for any questions as to why there are female characters and if it is
some sort of way to use "girl power" to pull in the crowd---that's not
true. Romance of the Three Kingdoms had many significant female
characters and a few warrior women to boot.

I can understand why they made RED CLIFF, rather than the later
chapters of ROTK which would require them to bring in the elephants.

If you study Chinese/Korean/Japanese history then reading ROTK or
summaries or watching these film versions will help you figure out what
the heck old texts allude to. ROTK is one of those works of historical
fiction (although there is a historical version of the story too) that is
*constantly* mentioned, referenced and compared to.

ROTK is a peek into the past, and often used as a peek into the future as
it is believed to be prophesize the outcome of political crisis once certain
factors come into play.

~Secretarytocapt3

P.S. RED CLIFF is not a flying/strings kung fu type movie

[Previous #3338] [Next #3413]

#3413 [2008-07-14 08:18:57]

Re: RED CLIFF (movie) and Kondou Isami

by kikue.mugen

The link leads me to a dead page :(
How come that? :P

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "secretary" wrote:
>
> If the Shinsengumi were here today---they'd have already purchased
> tickets to RED CLIFF. Then again many a warlord, administrator,
> Confucian scholar, daimyo and most of the Imperialist guys would
all
> line up to see this film:
>
> http://www.angryasianman.com/2008/07/john-woos-red-cliff-finally-
> arrives.html
>
> I saw the 8 minute promo reel. You'll enjoy the scenes after 4:00
> onwards. The character of Guan Yu, Kondou's fav chara, is shown
more
> in the 8 min. segment too.
>
> You'll love it. The music has some sort of weird Jo Hisaishi
influence (I
> wonder if he worked on the film). I think there is some Japanese
money
> invested in this movie clearly---and Shidou Nakamura stars in it as
well.
>
> And for any questions as to why there are female characters and if
it is
> some sort of way to use "girl power" to pull in the crowd---that's
not
> true. Romance of the Three Kingdoms had many significant female
> characters and a few warrior women to boot.
>
> I can understand why they made RED CLIFF, rather than the later
> chapters of ROTK which would require them to bring in the elephants.
>
> If you study Chinese/Korean/Japanese history then reading ROTK or
> summaries or watching these film versions will help you figure out
what
> the heck old texts allude to. ROTK is one of those works of
historical
> fiction (although there is a historical version of the story too)
that is
> *constantly* mentioned, referenced and compared to.
>
> ROTK is a peek into the past, and often used as a peek into the
future as
> it is believed to be prophesize the outcome of political crisis
once certain
> factors come into play.
>
> ~Secretarytocapt3
>
> P.S. RED CLIFF is not a flying/strings kung fu type movie
>

[Previous #3412] [Next #3414]

#3414 [2008-07-14 08:52:00]

Re: RED CLIFF (movie) and Kondou Isami

by secretarytocapt3

yahoo messed up the link here is a tinyurl: http://tinyurl.com/6mft73

the promo just takes your breath away...

anyways people who read "THE ART OF WAR" and may have been a bit
bored with it should read Romance of the Three Kingdoms...the original
version (historical fiction) is told chronologically however most modern
folks are introduced to it via spin-off texts. For example texts which are
character bios of the major figures in ROTK---then people get so
interested they are willing to wade through the original text.

Anyways as stated here on the list in before, it is eery Kondou Isami
related himself to the character of Guan Yu who had a very tragic end in
ROTK. More well known themes from ROTK is simply the "PEACH
GARDEN PACK" during which 3 warriors swore to be brothers---this is a
stock phrase used all over the place in China/Korea/Japan in the context
ofcourse of a warrior's bond.

Ultimately though it would have occurred to MANY MANY guys during the
Bakumatsu that on a national scale, politics had entered the "state" of
three kingdoms (3 political units/parties etc) in which to survive you
don't want to be the unit that gets ganged up on by 2 other units (this is
what happened to Aizu vs Sat-Cho, and a few smaller domains w/ Sat-
Cho).

Anyways people who study warfare, warriors or the "mentality" of
military strategists and confine themselves to THE ART OF WAR, Book of
5 rings etc---are missing like a good 90% of detail, nuance, diplomacy,
non-military tactics and personel management unless they seriously
make an effort to get a taste of one of Asia's most best-selling works of
literature.

Footnote: Sichuan which experienced the devastating earthquake this
year is one of the 3 kingdoms in ROTK. I really appreciated how John
Woo used the occasion of this movie's release to honor people who tried
to alleviate the suffering there.

Even in the ROTK text, earthquakes are mentioned and the very rugged
terrain around the area used as a natural defense in pre-modern times
was what hindered rescue efforts during this recent disaster.

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "kikue.mugen"
wrote:

>
> The link leads me to a dead page :(
> How come that? :P

[Previous #3413] [Next #3442]

#3442 [2008-10-22 22:59:42]

Re: RED CLIFF (movie) and Kondou Isami

by secretarytocapt3

Follow up to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SHQ/message/3412

I saw the first half of RED CLIFF and it's SPECTACULAR.

John Woo's vision of RED CLIFF, the most well known chapter of China's
epic THREE KINGDOMS is everything it promises to be to people who know
the story. I'm concerned that when the movie is released in the west it
will simply not have the same impact and the first 20 minutes are so are a
bit rocky. Most people who know the story can tell which character is
which such as "guy on white horse" has a name we all know already.

Understandably trailers of RED CLIFF make it seem like another empty,
soul-less CG extravaganza but if you acquire the film you'll be in for a BIG
SURPRISE and part two will be even better.

Warning: there is another "Three Kingdoms" film by Sammo Hung---it
looks really "iffy".

But back to Three Kingdoms and why Kondou and men of his generation
loved this work---to the point that Kondou somewhat identified himself
with the character of Guan Yu.

There are many versions of THree Kingdoms but the "basic" Guan Yu we
know from history was simply a self-made man. A farmer with no distinct
background. We assume that although he came from an incredibly
humble background he seemed to be able to read---atleast in one
memorable episode he reads (or he may have pretended to read). More
importantly Guan Yu was very loyal/sincere and had a warrior's sense of
pride well before his sworn brother was able to establish a kingdom/feud
which in the process raised his rank. His pathetic capture and death is
often dramatized in fiction and over the centuries he became a "stock
character" for loyalty, warrior prowess and masculine power however the
historical Guan Yu was supposedly much more cunning and seemed to put
up a better fight than his fictional self. Kondou would have had access to
the fictional Guan Yu via traditional story tellers and then he could have
come across poetry and the full-length "novel" as he matured. With each
retelling a person experiences the story becomes more "badass" to the
young warrior.

Samurai easily related to the Three Kingdoms as a historical and literary
work because the epic is about warring feuds yet it has so many delicate
episodes which remind readers that in between the blood and gore there
is still life beyond the battlefield and even the possibility of averting conflict.

[Previous #3414] [Next #3486]

#3486 [2009-10-08 20:23:46]

Re: RED CLIFF (movie) and Kondou Isami

by secretarytocapt3

http://redclifffilm.com/

On the big screen Nov 20 in the USA.

Available on VOC, XBOX Live and Amazon on October 22,

Below is a post I made long ago with my mini-rant on why it is actually relevant to Shinsengumi fans because Romance of the Three Kingdoms (the Red Cliff arc is part of the epic) was a beloved work of historical fiction by the historical Shinsengumi not to mention many generations of samurai before them. Most interestingly, historical Kondou compared himself to one of the characters in the film.

The film ultimately is the highest level of "fanfiction" of Romance of the Three Kingdoms by a master director.

Don't miss this film!

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "secretary" wrote:
>
> Follow up to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SHQ/message/3412
>
> I saw the first half of RED CLIFF and it's SPECTACULAR.
>
> John Woo's vision of RED CLIFF, the most well known chapter of China's
> epic THREE KINGDOMS is everything it promises to be to people who know
> the story. I'm concerned that when the movie is released in the west it
> will simply not have the same impact and the first 20 minutes are so are a
> bit rocky. Most people who know the story can tell which character is
> which such as "guy on white horse" has a name we all know already.
>
> Understandably trailers of RED CLIFF make it seem like another empty,
> soul-less CG extravaganza but if you acquire the film you'll be in for a BIG
> SURPRISE and part two will be even better.
>
> Warning: there is another "Three Kingdoms" film by Sammo Hung---it
> looks really "iffy".
>
> But back to Three Kingdoms and why Kondou and men of his generation
> loved this work---to the point that Kondou somewhat identified himself
> with the character of Guan Yu.
>
> There are many versions of THree Kingdoms but the "basic" Guan Yu we
> know from history was simply a self-made man. A farmer with no distinct
> background. We assume that although he came from an incredibly
> humble background he seemed to be able to read---atleast in one
> memorable episode he reads (or he may have pretended to read). More
> importantly Guan Yu was very loyal/sincere and had a warrior's sense of
> pride well before his sworn brother was able to establish a kingdom/feud
> which in the process raised his rank. His pathetic capture and death is
> often dramatized in fiction and over the centuries he became a "stock
> character" for loyalty, warrior prowess and masculine power however the
> historical Guan Yu was supposedly much more cunning and seemed to put
> up a better fight than his fictional self. Kondou would have had access to
> the fictional Guan Yu via traditional story tellers and then he could have
> come across poetry and the full-length "novel" as he matured. With each
> retelling a person experiences the story becomes more "badass" to the
> young warrior.
>
> Samurai easily related to the Three Kingdoms as a historical and literary
> work because the epic is about warring feuds yet it has so many delicate
> episodes which remind readers that in between the blood and gore there
> is still life beyond the battlefield and even the possibility of averting conflict.
>

[Previous #3442]