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#3194 [2007-03-28 04:34:24]

Citations Needed

by sevenofwiki

It's always been my understanding that during the Bakumatsu, people in Kyoto were
generally pro-Choshu. I've recently gotten into an argument with somebody who insisted
that it wasn't the case. In order to settle it, I asked Shikisoku for some citations (since my
bookshelf collapsed the other day and all my history books are in boxes
now.)Unfortunately, that someone said Rekishi Dokuhon wasn't good enough to be used
as a source (not to mention website sources.) Could someone here help me and provide
book citations? I'd really appreciate it.

~Seven

[Next #3195]

#3195 [2007-03-28 08:52:19]

Re: Citations Needed

by secretarytocapt3

I think that it is impossible to truly determine if people in Kyoto
were Pro - [insert faction] and the reason is that there was
no "polling" done in that era. Even in our modern era polling is
unreliable and manipulated to get people on a "bandwagon".

For instance, Fukuchi Genichiro was able to print some of his
arguably pro-bakufu opinions (Fukuchi later was a Meiji newspaper
editor and became pro-Meiji government due to the desire to seek
stability in Japan). We do not know if his pro-bakufu stance during
the Bakumatsu years were popular or not.

The truth is the people in Kyoto or any situation will have a hard
time expressing themselves because they will side with whichever side
can bring stability and peace---at any cost.

Perhaps the question can be answered with how people interpreted the
events of Kinmon no Hen (1864) during which many pro-bakufu domains
clashed with Choshu forces. Was this viewed as an attempt BY Choshu
to aggressively retake political power in Kyoto? OR was this viewed
by many as Aizu's attempt to suppress another domain. We must ask
Choshu experts to explain details to us.

Rekishi Dokuhon is a magazine type publication with a mixed
reputation however one can be clever and see if the information
printed can be confirmed with OTHER sources. We also have to keep in
mind that publishing in general is difficult and that some
researchers may find it easier to get things recorded in
Rekishi...than in other books. For example let's imagine a
researcher without mainstream credentials like for instance a PHd in
history with a specialization in Japan---an "amateur" researcher may
have found something VERY valuable but may have to publish in Rekishi
Dokuhon due to the simple circumstance of lack of credentials but
more likley due to the fact that it is just hard to get published. I
think that we as fans must judge on a case to case basis.
www.shinsengumihq.com for instance has had to cite Rekishi Dokuhon.
Things such as rare Shinsengumi photos have even appeared in
Rekishi.... We also have to keep in mind that many books (not just
the history magazine Rekishi...) on the shinsengumi were written in a
non-academic tone with dubious citation and the information therefore
at times is unreliable as well. So Rekishi is not the only problem.

Here is some pro-Aizu information:

[May 27,1868]
"Go in, Aidzu, say we all of us. Everyone is an Aidzu man now."
(Boyer 49)

who is "we" ???... we were Americans who were sympathetic towards the
NORTH as the editor, Barnes, noted.
---------------------
[May 29, 1868]
"The coolies all yell for Aizu---say he is No.1. The other day they
yelled as loud for Satsuma. Now Satsuma is no good; Aidzu is the
coming man." (Boyer 50)

so here we have coolies--***normal folks shifting their opinion based
on the tide of armed conflict
---------------------
[June 15, 1868]
"The latest information from the seat of war is that the tycoon has
been reinstated as Executive Officer of all Japan by the Mikado. So
much for the gallant fighting of Aidzu. I hope Aidzu will be
rewarded by the tycoon. Wonder what old Satsuma will do now. His
reign has been of short duration." (Boyer 56)

Here as the editor and as we all know is simply innaccurate
information recorded by Boyer in his diary. Perhaps the value of
this shred of detail is that he accepts the information he heard
because HE IS HIMSELF very sympathetic towards Aizu.

Thus, it is truly impossible to gauge whose side the normal folks or
peasantry sided with. As Shinsengumi fans we should note that our
boys are favored and then villified depending on the political
climate both during and after the Bakumatsu as well. During the age
of feudalism the opinion of the man of the street did not "count".
The Meiji era was no better---the state CRUSHED dissent ruthlessly
and muzzled the media effectively (literally no different from the
Tokugawa). In our present day world we value popular opinion.
Therefore to say "whose side was the people on" is a very modern view
that is hard to determine in that era.

Source:
Boyer, Dr. Samuel Pellman (edited by Elinor and James A. Barnes).
NAVAL SURGEON REVOLT IN JAPAN 1868-1869. Bloomington, Indiana
University Press, 1963.

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven" wrote:
>
> It's always been my understanding that during the Bakumatsu, people
in Kyoto were
> generally pro-Choshu. I've recently gotten into an argument with
somebody who insisted
> that it wasn't the case. In order to settle it, I asked Shikisoku
for some citations (since my
> bookshelf collapsed the other day and all my history books are in
boxes
> now.)Unfortunately, that someone said Rekishi Dokuhon wasn't good
enough to be used
> as a source (not to mention website sources.) Could someone here
help me and provide
> book citations? I'd really appreciate it.
>
> ~Seven
>

[Previous #3194] [Next #3196]

#3196 [2007-03-28 11:22:29]

Re: Citations Needed

by sevenofwiki

Yes, I'm aware of all this. Though, I've read from books that people in Kyoto were pro-
Choshu a long time ago. I just can't remember which books I read that from and I'm
wondering whether you guys have also read it before (from books, I mean.) If so, can
anyone provide a few citations?

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "secretary" wrote:
>
> I think that it is impossible to truly determine if people in Kyoto
> were Pro - [insert faction] and the reason is that there was
> no "polling" done in that era. Even in our modern era polling is
> unreliable and manipulated to get people on a "bandwagon".
>
> For instance, Fukuchi Genichiro was able to print some of his
> arguably pro-bakufu opinions (Fukuchi later was a Meiji newspaper
> editor and became pro-Meiji government due to the desire to seek
> stability in Japan). We do not know if his pro-bakufu stance during
> the Bakumatsu years were popular or not.
>
> The truth is the people in Kyoto or any situation will have a hard
> time expressing themselves because they will side with whichever side
> can bring stability and peace---at any cost.
>
> Perhaps the question can be answered with how people interpreted the
> events of Kinmon no Hen (1864) during which many pro-bakufu domains
> clashed with Choshu forces. Was this viewed as an attempt BY Choshu
> to aggressively retake political power in Kyoto? OR was this viewed
> by many as Aizu's attempt to suppress another domain. We must ask
> Choshu experts to explain details to us.
>
> Rekishi Dokuhon is a magazine type publication with a mixed
> reputation however one can be clever and see if the information
> printed can be confirmed with OTHER sources. We also have to keep in
> mind that publishing in general is difficult and that some
> researchers may find it easier to get things recorded in
> Rekishi...than in other books. For example let's imagine a
> researcher without mainstream credentials like for instance a PHd in
> history with a specialization in Japan---an "amateur" researcher may
> have found something VERY valuable but may have to publish in Rekishi
> Dokuhon due to the simple circumstance of lack of credentials but
> more likley due to the fact that it is just hard to get published. I
> think that we as fans must judge on a case to case basis.
> www.shinsengumihq.com for instance has had to cite Rekishi Dokuhon.
> Things such as rare Shinsengumi photos have even appeared in
> Rekishi.... We also have to keep in mind that many books (not just
> the history magazine Rekishi...) on the shinsengumi were written in a
> non-academic tone with dubious citation and the information therefore
> at times is unreliable as well. So Rekishi is not the only problem.


Thanks for the reply and the pro-Aizu information.

~Seven

[Previous #3195] [Next #3197]

#3197 [2007-03-28 11:41:04]

Re: Citations Needed

by secretarytocapt3

You may want to check English language books which focus on Choshu to
prove that Choshu was popular.

Craig, Albert M. Chōshū in the Meiji restoration.

Is the best general reference on the topic.
If Choshu was insanely popular it would be something short lived
because the military action Choshu took against the westerners seemed
the most proactive however the most foolhardy. Much of the
population was not fully aware of the military capabilities the west
was ready to unleash on Japan (and they would LOVE to have been
provoked and therefore justified in striking back).

I will nudge a Choshu enthusiast and ask her to address this question.

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven" wrote:
>
> Yes, I'm aware of all this. Though, I've read from books that
people in Kyoto were pro-
> Choshu a long time ago. I just can't remember which books I read
that from and I'm
> wondering whether you guys have also read it before (from books, I
mean.) If so, can
> anyone provide a few citations?
>
> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "secretary" wrote:
> >
> > I think that it is impossible to truly determine if people in
Kyoto
> > were Pro - [insert faction] and the reason is that there was
> > no "polling" done in that era. Even in our modern era polling is
> > unreliable and manipulated to get people on a "bandwagon".
> >
> > For instance, Fukuchi Genichiro was able to print some of his
> > arguably pro-bakufu opinions (Fukuchi later was a Meiji newspaper
> > editor and became pro-Meiji government due to the desire to seek
> > stability in Japan). We do not know if his pro-bakufu stance
during
> > the Bakumatsu years were popular or not.
> >
> > The truth is the people in Kyoto or any situation will have a
hard
> > time expressing themselves because they will side with whichever
side
> > can bring stability and peace---at any cost.
> >
> > Perhaps the question can be answered with how people interpreted
the
> > events of Kinmon no Hen (1864) during which many pro-bakufu
domains
> > clashed with Choshu forces. Was this viewed as an attempt BY
Choshu
> > to aggressively retake political power in Kyoto? OR was this
viewed
> > by many as Aizu's attempt to suppress another domain. We must
ask
> > Choshu experts to explain details to us.
> >
> > Rekishi Dokuhon is a magazine type publication with a mixed
> > reputation however one can be clever and see if the information
> > printed can be confirmed with OTHER sources. We also have to
keep in
> > mind that publishing in general is difficult and that some
> > researchers may find it easier to get things recorded in
> > Rekishi...than in other books. For example let's imagine a
> > researcher without mainstream credentials like for instance a PHd
in
> > history with a specialization in Japan---an "amateur" researcher
may
> > have found something VERY valuable but may have to publish in
Rekishi
> > Dokuhon due to the simple circumstance of lack of credentials but
> > more likley due to the fact that it is just hard to get
published. I
> > think that we as fans must judge on a case to case basis.
> > www.shinsengumihq.com for instance has had to cite Rekishi
Dokuhon.
> > Things such as rare Shinsengumi photos have even appeared in
> > Rekishi.... We also have to keep in mind that many books (not
just
> > the history magazine Rekishi...) on the shinsengumi were written
in a
> > non-academic tone with dubious citation and the information
therefore
> > at times is unreliable as well. So Rekishi is not the only
problem.
>
>
> Thanks for the reply and the pro-Aizu information.
>
> ~Seven
>

[Previous #3196] [Next #3198]

#3198 [2007-03-28 12:12:25]

Re: Citations Needed

by secretarytocapt3

Sorry, I did not fully understand your message "Yes, I'm aware of all
this."

aware that there is no accurate way to gauge public opinion

[or] aware that indeed Kyoto was pro-bakufu (it depends on the year and
even month you are discussing)...again the political situation changed
too fast and often for public opinion to remain *fixed* as firmly pro-
imperial or pro-bakufu

please go ahead and pass along my information and Hirotada Tokugawa's
upcoming post to the person who says that Kyoto was not *generally Pro-
Choshu.

That way the information does not go to waste.
thanks

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven" wrote:
>
> Yes, I'm aware of all this. Though, I've read from books that people
in Kyoto were pro-
> Choshu a long time ago.

[Previous #3197] [Next #3199]

#3199 [2007-03-28 12:21:31]

Re: Citations Needed

by sevenofwiki

> You may want to check English language books which focus on Choshu to
> prove that Choshu was popular.
>
> Craig, Albert M. Chōshū in the Meiji restoration.

I've read Craig's "The Restoration Movement in Choshu" before and this is a good
suggestion, Thanks!

> I will nudge a Choshu enthusiast and ask her to address this question.

Great, thanks!


~Seven

[Previous #3198] [Next #3200]

#3200 [2007-03-28 12:21:58]

Re: Citations Needed

by secretarytocapt3

[The following post was written by Hirotada TOkugawa---yahoogroups is
not posting his message]

>people in Kyoto were
> generally pro-Choshu.

I'd like to point out for the sake of argument, Seven, the following
song which was popular in Kyoto in the spring of Bunkyu 3 (1863),
upon Matsudaira Katamori's entry into Kyoto (during the torrent of
Choshu-sponsored assassinations):

"Aizu Higo-sama Kyoto Shugoshoku tsutomemasu
Dairi hanjou de kuge andon
toko-Yo no naka you gansu."

(Akama Shizuko, "Shinsengumi Saitou Hajime no Nazo." Tokyo: Shin
Jinbutsu Oraisha, 1998, p. 36)

(This can end "you gansho" depending on whose version you're looking
at. Also, "toko" is just an onomatopoeia used in Japanese folk songs)

A rough translation:

"Lord Aizu Higo is Kyoto Protector
The Palace prospers, the nobles are relieved
All is right with the world again"

Some people in Kyoto may have supported Choshu, especially as time
went on, but think about it: how logical is it for "most" of the
residents of a city to like the people who go slinking around at
night murdering, and who, given a chance, wanted to burn their city
to the ground? This is not to excuse Aizu from blame: there was, for
example, a recorded instance of Aizu men wanting to torch Nishi-
Honganji for hiding Choshu runaways in 1864. (see
http://homepage3.nifty.com/naitouhougyoku/frame11/jinmei-ka.htm)
However, the monk who was doing the hiding, named Kawai Zenjun, was
from Aizu, and reported the intent of those men to the Aizu
authorities, who promptly reined them in. After all torching Nishi
Honganji was a violation of Aizu's military codes, the Rules for
Commanders and Rules For Soldiers (which Aizu had compiled half a
century previously)-- these codes clearly state that unnecessary
destruction of "civilian" property (such as Nishi Honganji) was
prohibited. The codes appear in Japanese, together with others such
as the Aizu house code, here:
http://homepage3.nifty.com/naitouhougyoku/frame11/jinmei-ka.htm

>Could someone here help me and provide
> book citations?

Yes, I agree-- if anyone has a citation-- not simply a book title,
but an actual passage from a book, complete with a page number and
bibliographic citation (title, author, publisher, year)-- please
share it.

[Previous #3199] [Next #3202]

#3202 [2007-03-28 12:27:04]

Re: Citations Needed

by sevenofwiki

I'm aware that there is no accurate way to gauge public opinion.

Thanks again!

~Seven

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "secretary" wrote:
>
> Sorry, I did not fully understand your message "Yes, I'm aware of all
> this."
>
> aware that there is no accurate way to gauge public opinion
>
> [or] aware that indeed Kyoto was pro-bakufu (it depends on the year and
> even month you are discussing)...again the political situation changed
> too fast and often for public opinion to remain *fixed* as firmly pro-
> imperial or pro-bakufu
>
> please go ahead and pass along my information and Hirotada Tokugawa's
> upcoming post to the person who says that Kyoto was not *generally Pro-
> Choshu.
>
> That way the information does not go to waste.
> thanks
>
> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven" wrote:
> >
> > Yes, I'm aware of all this. Though, I've read from books that people
> in Kyoto were pro-
> > Choshu a long time ago.
>

[Previous #3200] [Next #3204]

#3204 [2007-03-28 12:36:19]

Re: Citations Needed

by sevenofwiki

Thanks for the reply. By the way, yahoogroups keeps on posting my messages twice!

~Seven

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "secretary" wrote:
>
> [The following post was written by Hirotada TOkugawa---yahoogroups is
> not posting his message]
>
> >people in Kyoto were
> > generally pro-Choshu.
>
> I'd like to point out for the sake of argument, Seven, the following
> song which was popular in Kyoto in the spring of Bunkyu 3 (1863),
> upon Matsudaira Katamori's entry into Kyoto (during the torrent of
> Choshu-sponsored assassinations):
>
> "Aizu Higo-sama Kyoto Shugoshoku tsutomemasu
> Dairi hanjou de kuge andon
> toko-Yo no naka you gansu."
>
> (Akama Shizuko, "Shinsengumi Saitou Hajime no Nazo." Tokyo: Shin
> Jinbutsu Oraisha, 1998, p. 36)
>
> (This can end "you gansho" depending on whose version you're looking
> at. Also, "toko" is just an onomatopoeia used in Japanese folk songs)
>
> A rough translation:
>
> "Lord Aizu Higo is Kyoto Protector
> The Palace prospers, the nobles are relieved
> All is right with the world again"
>
> Some people in Kyoto may have supported Choshu, especially as time
> went on, but think about it: how logical is it for "most" of the
> residents of a city to like the people who go slinking around at
> night murdering, and who, given a chance, wanted to burn their city
> to the ground? This is not to excuse Aizu from blame: there was, for
> example, a recorded instance of Aizu men wanting to torch Nishi-
> Honganji for hiding Choshu runaways in 1864. (see
> http://homepage3.nifty.com/naitouhougyoku/frame11/jinmei-ka.htm)
> However, the monk who was doing the hiding, named Kawai Zenjun, was
> from Aizu, and reported the intent of those men to the Aizu
> authorities, who promptly reined them in. After all torching Nishi
> Honganji was a violation of Aizu's military codes, the Rules for
> Commanders and Rules For Soldiers (which Aizu had compiled half a
> century previously)-- these codes clearly state that unnecessary
> destruction of "civilian" property (such as Nishi Honganji) was
> prohibited. The codes appear in Japanese, together with others such
> as the Aizu house code, here:
> http://homepage3.nifty.com/naitouhougyoku/frame11/jinmei-ka.htm
>
> >Could someone here help me and provide
> > book citations?
>
> Yes, I agree-- if anyone has a citation-- not simply a book title,
> but an actual passage from a book, complete with a page number and
> bibliographic citation (title, author, publisher, year)-- please
> share it.
>

[Previous #3202] [Next #3205]

#3205 [2007-03-28 12:47:09]

Re: Citations Needed

by shimazuryu

I'd like to post a translation of the item from Aizu's "Shochou
Kinrei" (Rules for Commanders) here which concerns the incident I
mentioned regarding the potential burning of Nishi-Honganji which was
stopped.

(from
http://homepage3.nifty.com/naitouhougyoku/freme6/shouchou-kinrei.htm)

"Though it is the enemy's territory, it is *forbidden* to go about
seizing vegetables and produce, burning the people's houses, killing
the elderly and young, raping women and girls, stealing rice and gold,
felling timber without cause, or plucking feathers."

Clearly, Aizu held itself to a very high standard of battlefield
conduct, being one of the most martial domains of northern Japan.
However, as we have seen, this did not mean that every last Aizu
samurai followed the code perfectly. However, the fact that the Aizu
commanders were able to rein the men in shows that the *leadership*
did its best to follow those rules.

-M.

[Previous #3204]


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