--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven"wrote:
>
> It's always been my understanding that during the Bakumatsu, people
in Kyoto were
> generally pro-Choshu. I've recently gotten into an argument with
somebody who insisted
> that it wasn't the case. In order to settle it, I asked Shikisoku
for some citations (since my
> bookshelf collapsed the other day and all my history books are in
boxes
> now.)Unfortunately, that someone said Rekishi Dokuhon wasn't good
enough to be used
> as a source (not to mention website sources.) Could someone here
help me and provide
> book citations? I'd really appreciate it.
>
> ~Seven
>
--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "secretary"wrote:
>
> I think that it is impossible to truly determine if people in Kyoto
> were Pro - [insert faction] and the reason is that there was
> no "polling" done in that era. Even in our modern era polling is
> unreliable and manipulated to get people on a "bandwagon".
>
> For instance, Fukuchi Genichiro was able to print some of his
> arguably pro-bakufu opinions (Fukuchi later was a Meiji newspaper
> editor and became pro-Meiji government due to the desire to seek
> stability in Japan). We do not know if his pro-bakufu stance during
> the Bakumatsu years were popular or not.
>
> The truth is the people in Kyoto or any situation will have a hard
> time expressing themselves because they will side with whichever side
> can bring stability and peace---at any cost.
>
> Perhaps the question can be answered with how people interpreted the
> events of Kinmon no Hen (1864) during which many pro-bakufu domains
> clashed with Choshu forces. Was this viewed as an attempt BY Choshu
> to aggressively retake political power in Kyoto? OR was this viewed
> by many as Aizu's attempt to suppress another domain. We must ask
> Choshu experts to explain details to us.
>
> Rekishi Dokuhon is a magazine type publication with a mixed
> reputation however one can be clever and see if the information
> printed can be confirmed with OTHER sources. We also have to keep in
> mind that publishing in general is difficult and that some
> researchers may find it easier to get things recorded in
> Rekishi...than in other books. For example let's imagine a
> researcher without mainstream credentials like for instance a PHd in
> history with a specialization in Japan---an "amateur" researcher may
> have found something VERY valuable but may have to publish in Rekishi
> Dokuhon due to the simple circumstance of lack of credentials but
> more likley due to the fact that it is just hard to get published. I
> think that we as fans must judge on a case to case basis.
> www.shinsengumihq.com for instance has had to cite Rekishi Dokuhon.
> Things such as rare Shinsengumi photos have even appeared in
> Rekishi.... We also have to keep in mind that many books (not just
> the history magazine Rekishi...) on the shinsengumi were written in a
> non-academic tone with dubious citation and the information therefore
> at times is unreliable as well. So Rekishi is not the only problem.
Thanks for the reply and the pro-Aizu information.
~Seven
--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven"wrote:
>
> Yes, I'm aware of all this. Though, I've read from books that
people in Kyoto were pro-
> Choshu a long time ago. I just can't remember which books I read
that from and I'm
> wondering whether you guys have also read it before (from books, I
mean.) If so, can
> anyone provide a few citations?
>
> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "secretary"wrote:
> >
> > I think that it is impossible to truly determine if people in
Kyoto
> > were Pro - [insert faction] and the reason is that there was
> > no "polling" done in that era. Even in our modern era polling is
> > unreliable and manipulated to get people on a "bandwagon".
> >
> > For instance, Fukuchi Genichiro was able to print some of his
> > arguably pro-bakufu opinions (Fukuchi later was a Meiji newspaper
> > editor and became pro-Meiji government due to the desire to seek
> > stability in Japan). We do not know if his pro-bakufu stance
during
> > the Bakumatsu years were popular or not.
> >
> > The truth is the people in Kyoto or any situation will have a
hard
> > time expressing themselves because they will side with whichever
side
> > can bring stability and peace---at any cost.
> >
> > Perhaps the question can be answered with how people interpreted
the
> > events of Kinmon no Hen (1864) during which many pro-bakufu
domains
> > clashed with Choshu forces. Was this viewed as an attempt BY
Choshu
> > to aggressively retake political power in Kyoto? OR was this
viewed
> > by many as Aizu's attempt to suppress another domain. We must
ask
> > Choshu experts to explain details to us.
> >
> > Rekishi Dokuhon is a magazine type publication with a mixed
> > reputation however one can be clever and see if the information
> > printed can be confirmed with OTHER sources. We also have to
keep in
> > mind that publishing in general is difficult and that some
> > researchers may find it easier to get things recorded in
> > Rekishi...than in other books. For example let's imagine a
> > researcher without mainstream credentials like for instance a PHd
in
> > history with a specialization in Japan---an "amateur" researcher
may
> > have found something VERY valuable but may have to publish in
Rekishi
> > Dokuhon due to the simple circumstance of lack of credentials but
> > more likley due to the fact that it is just hard to get
published. I
> > think that we as fans must judge on a case to case basis.
> > www.shinsengumihq.com for instance has had to cite Rekishi
Dokuhon.
> > Things such as rare Shinsengumi photos have even appeared in
> > Rekishi.... We also have to keep in mind that many books (not
just
> > the history magazine Rekishi...) on the shinsengumi were written
in a
> > non-academic tone with dubious citation and the information
therefore
> > at times is unreliable as well. So Rekishi is not the only
problem.
>
>
> Thanks for the reply and the pro-Aizu information.
>
> ~Seven
>
--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven"wrote:
>
> Yes, I'm aware of all this. Though, I've read from books that people
in Kyoto were pro-
> Choshu a long time ago.
> You may want to check English language books which focus on Choshu toI've read Craig's "The Restoration Movement in Choshu" before and this is a good
> prove that Choshu was popular.
>
> Craig, Albert M. Chōshū in the Meiji restoration.
> I will nudge a Choshu enthusiast and ask her to address this question.Great, thanks!
>people in Kyoto wereI'd like to point out for the sake of argument, Seven, the following
> generally pro-Choshu.
>Could someone here help me and provideYes, I agree-- if anyone has a citation-- not simply a book title,
> book citations?
--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "secretary"wrote:
>
> Sorry, I did not fully understand your message "Yes, I'm aware of all
> this."
>
> aware that there is no accurate way to gauge public opinion
>
> [or] aware that indeed Kyoto was pro-bakufu (it depends on the year and
> even month you are discussing)...again the political situation changed
> too fast and often for public opinion to remain *fixed* as firmly pro-
> imperial or pro-bakufu
>
> please go ahead and pass along my information and Hirotada Tokugawa's
> upcoming post to the person who says that Kyoto was not *generally Pro-
> Choshu.
>
> That way the information does not go to waste.
> thanks
>
> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven"wrote:
> >
> > Yes, I'm aware of all this. Though, I've read from books that people
> in Kyoto were pro-
> > Choshu a long time ago.
>
--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "secretary"wrote:
>
> [The following post was written by Hirotada TOkugawa---yahoogroups is
> not posting his message]
>
> >people in Kyoto were
> > generally pro-Choshu.
>
> I'd like to point out for the sake of argument, Seven, the following
> song which was popular in Kyoto in the spring of Bunkyu 3 (1863),
> upon Matsudaira Katamori's entry into Kyoto (during the torrent of
> Choshu-sponsored assassinations):
>
> "Aizu Higo-sama Kyoto Shugoshoku tsutomemasu
> Dairi hanjou de kuge andon
> toko-Yo no naka you gansu."
>
> (Akama Shizuko, "Shinsengumi Saitou Hajime no Nazo." Tokyo: Shin
> Jinbutsu Oraisha, 1998, p. 36)
>
> (This can end "you gansho" depending on whose version you're looking
> at. Also, "toko" is just an onomatopoeia used in Japanese folk songs)
>
> A rough translation:
>
> "Lord Aizu Higo is Kyoto Protector
> The Palace prospers, the nobles are relieved
> All is right with the world again"
>
> Some people in Kyoto may have supported Choshu, especially as time
> went on, but think about it: how logical is it for "most" of the
> residents of a city to like the people who go slinking around at
> night murdering, and who, given a chance, wanted to burn their city
> to the ground? This is not to excuse Aizu from blame: there was, for
> example, a recorded instance of Aizu men wanting to torch Nishi-
> Honganji for hiding Choshu runaways in 1864. (see
> http://homepage3.nifty.com/naitouhougyoku/frame11/jinmei-ka.htm)
> However, the monk who was doing the hiding, named Kawai Zenjun, was
> from Aizu, and reported the intent of those men to the Aizu
> authorities, who promptly reined them in. After all torching Nishi
> Honganji was a violation of Aizu's military codes, the Rules for
> Commanders and Rules For Soldiers (which Aizu had compiled half a
> century previously)-- these codes clearly state that unnecessary
> destruction of "civilian" property (such as Nishi Honganji) was
> prohibited. The codes appear in Japanese, together with others such
> as the Aizu house code, here:
> http://homepage3.nifty.com/naitouhougyoku/frame11/jinmei-ka.htm
>
> >Could someone here help me and provide
> > book citations?
>
> Yes, I agree-- if anyone has a citation-- not simply a book title,
> but an actual passage from a book, complete with a page number and
> bibliographic citation (title, author, publisher, year)-- please
> share it.
>