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#3115 [2007-01-19 23:55:09]

age

by melianeth

I was curius about the age among the shinsengumi, also about the time
they were named Roshigumi if I make no mistake. Everywhere I read that
Todou,Heisuke and Okita, Souji were the youngest but most times it
was said they were the youngest among the Shieikan not the
Shinsengumi. SO might that be true? Could they really have been the
youngest? What about the normal samurai among them , not a squad
captain? Among the hundreds(s) there surely was someone?! And what
exactly is the meaning "shieikan".

[Next #3116]

#3116 [2007-01-20 09:38:49]

RE: [SHQ] age

by shimazuryu

To the best of my knowledge, the youngest Shinsengumi was Tamura Ginnosuke,
originally from the Iwakidaira domain near Aizu who joined up later on with
his two brothers and fought in the Boshin War. He joined Shinsengumi in 1867
at age 12, and died on August 20, 1924. Those who can read Japanese may make
use of
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%94%B0%E6%9D%91%E9%8A%80%E4%B9%8B%E5%8A%A9

"Shieikan" is written with the characters "Test[ing]", "defense", and
"mansion" (which in the case of a martial arts school has more of the
connotation of "hall," as in the modern-day "Bujinkan"). My translation of
it would be "Defense-Testing Hall".

-H.

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[Previous #3115] [Next #3117]

#3117 [2007-01-20 09:46:21]

Re: age

by shimazuryu

Tamura Ginnosuke merits some further commentary. He was in the thick
of action during the Boshin War, and his testimony on the war is vital
for anyone who wants an eyewitness account of some of the most ignored
parts of the war. For instance, Tamura comments on the fighting men of
the Sendai domain, who played an important part in the war in the
north, but who are largely ignored by most Japanese and by pretty much
all western scholars.

All of this testimony, some of which is quoted in some of the better
Japanese-language history websites, is made even more poignant by the
fact that he was a child of 12-13 years at the time...

-M.

[Previous #3116] [Next #3118]

#3118 [2007-01-20 09:50:03]

Re: age

by shimazuryu

For those who are scholars of the Edo period, amateur or otherwise,
Tamura's home domain of Iwakidaira is important-- it was the domain of
Ando Tsushima-no-Kami Nobumasa, who was a successor of the (in)famous
Ii Naosuke, and was almost murdered like him.

Again, for those who can make use of Japanese:
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%AE%89%E8%97%A4%E4%BF%A1%E6%AD%A3

-M.

[Previous #3117] [Next #3119]

#3119 [2007-01-20 10:35:38]

Re: age

by shimazuryu

Again, for those who can use Japanese:
http://blog.drecom.jp/ponpoko-y/archive/235

This blog entry quotes some of Tamura's testimony, which appears in
"Shidankai Sokkiroku". There is a library near me which has "Shidankai
Sokkiroku"-- which is a gigantic series of transcribed oral testimony,
written in the mid to late Meiji era, from eyewitnesses to the great
events of the Bakumatsu. Each volume is around 300-400 pages, and
there are about 10 or more volumes, I believe. I will try to get ahold
of Tamura's testimony, along with other Shinsengumi references (such
as data on Yoshimura Kan'ichiro of "Mibugishiden" fame) which appears
within. I had some references from it previously, which were lost due
to circumstances beyond my control, so I'm anxious to recover that and
add to it.

Will keep you all updated.

-M.

[Previous #3118] [Next #3121]

#3121 [2007-01-20 15:50:51]

Re: age

by kitsuno

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Hirotada Tokugawa" wrote:
>
> To the best of my knowledge, the youngest Shinsengumi was Tamura
Ginnosuke,
> originally from the Iwakidaira domain near Aizu who joined up later
on with
> his two brothers and fought in the Boshin War. He joined Shinsengumi
in 1867
> at age 12, and died on August 20, 1924. Those who can read Japanese
may make
> use of
>


How does Inoue Taisuke fit into this? I know he was present when his
uncle Inoue Genzaburou was killed in battle, and he was just 10 years
old. I doubt he was an actual Shinsengumi member, but did he serve
some sort of function, or did he just happen to run into his uncle in
the middle of a battle?

[Previous #3119] [Next #3122]

#3122 [2007-01-20 16:58:23]

RE: [SHQ] Re: age

by shimazuryu

Well then, I stand corrected...there's no arguing with a difference between
10 and 12/13.

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%BA%95%E4%B8%8A%E6%B3%B0%E5%8A%A9

However, Taisuke's job was carrying Kondou's sword (which shows how
high-ranking Kondou was becoming), and apart from having witnessed his
uncle's death (he says), his only real action was at Toba-Fushimi, and the
records I have seen do not suggest that he fought. The Wikipedia article
says that he went home to the Inoue family and relayed the news of his
uncle's death. Tamura, two/three years older than him, stayed in Shinsengumi
and saw further action.

-M.

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[Previous #3121] [Next #3123]

#3123 [2007-01-20 18:07:53]

Re: age

by kitsuno

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Hirotada Tokugawa" wrote:
>
> Well then, I stand corrected...there's no arguing with a difference
between
> 10 and 12/13.
>

Did you notice that the Japanese wikipedia article has his correct
birthdate of 1858, but says he was 11 in 1867... That doesn't add up.

[Previous #3122] [Next #3124]

#3124 [2007-01-20 18:26:41]

RE: [SHQ] Re: age

by shimazuryu

>Did you notice that the Japanese wikipedia article has his correct
>birthdate of 1858, but says he was 11 in 1867... That doesn't add up.

It sure doesn't. I'm not trying to start any discord here, but to be honest,
I did not consider the accuracy of the Japanese Wikipedia to be germane to
the discussion at hand, therefore I didn't bring it up.

-M.

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[Previous #3123] [Next #3125]

#3125 [2007-01-20 19:03:40]

Re: age

by kitsuno

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Hirotada Tokugawa" wrote:
>
> >Did you notice that the Japanese wikipedia article has his correct
> >birthdate of 1858, but says he was 11 in 1867... That doesn't add up.
>
> It sure doesn't. I'm not trying to start any discord here, but to be
honest,
> I did not consider the accuracy of the Japanese Wikipedia to be
germane to
> the discussion at hand, therefore I didn't bring it up.
>

Well, what I was thinking about was if prior to the 20th century the
Japanese used the "chinese" method of calling you 1 on the day of your
birth. I was looking for the confirmation, but didn't have the fully
formed thought until after I sent the message. By then I figured I'd
wait to see what the response was. So - "official" question - is that
how Japanese calculated ages prior to the 20th century?

[Previous #3124] [Next #3126]

#3126 [2007-01-20 19:08:36]

Re: age

by shimazuryu

> Well, what I was thinking about was if prior to the 20th century the
> Japanese used the "chinese" method of calling you 1 on the day of your
> birth. I was looking for the confirmation, but didn't have the fully
> formed thought until after I sent the message. By then I figured I'd
> wait to see what the response was. So - "official" question - is that
> how Japanese calculated ages prior to the 20th century?

I can vouch for that...the introduction to Conrad Totman's book
"Tokugawa Ieyasu: Shogun" talks about that.

-M.

[Previous #3125] [Next #3127]

#3127 [2007-01-20 21:26:12]

Re: age

by sevenofwiki

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Kitsuno" wrote:
>
> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Hirotada Tokugawa" wrote:
> >
> > >Did you notice that the Japanese wikipedia article has his correct
> > >birthdate of 1858, but says he was 11 in 1867... That doesn't add up.
> >
> > It sure doesn't. I'm not trying to start any discord here, but to be
> honest,
> > I did not consider the accuracy of the Japanese Wikipedia to be
> germane to
> > the discussion at hand, therefore I didn't bring it up.
> >
>
> Well, what I was thinking about was if prior to the 20th century the
> Japanese used the "chinese" method of calling you 1 on the day of your
> birth. I was looking for the confirmation, but didn't have the fully
> formed thought until after I sent the message. By then I figured I'd
> wait to see what the response was. So - "official" question - is that
> how Japanese calculated ages prior to the 20th century?


East Asian age reckoning:
the current year - the year of birth + 1

Therefore, it still doesn't add up.

~Seven

[Previous #3126] [Next #3128]

#3128 [2007-01-20 21:32:32]

Re: age

by sevenofwiki

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven" wrote:
>
> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Kitsuno" wrote:
> >
> > --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Hirotada Tokugawa" wrote:
> > >
> > > >Did you notice that the Japanese wikipedia article has his correct
> > > >birthdate of 1858, but says he was 11 in 1867... That doesn't add up.
> > >
> > > It sure doesn't. I'm not trying to start any discord here, but to be
> > honest,
> > > I did not consider the accuracy of the Japanese Wikipedia to be
> > germane to
> > > the discussion at hand, therefore I didn't bring it up.
> > >
> >
> > Well, what I was thinking about was if prior to the 20th century the
> > Japanese used the "chinese" method of calling you 1 on the day of your
> > birth. I was looking for the confirmation, but didn't have the fully
> > formed thought until after I sent the message. By then I figured I'd
> > wait to see what the response was. So - "official" question - is that
> > how Japanese calculated ages prior to the 20th century?
>
>
> East Asian age reckoning:
> the current year - the year of birth + 1
>
> Therefore, it still doesn't add up.
>
> ~Seven
>

PS. Inoue Taisuke was born in 1857 so he was 12 (by East Asian age reckoning) in 1868.

[Previous #3127] [Next #3129]

#3129 [2007-01-20 21:36:26]

RE: [SHQ] Re: age

by shimazuryu

Still means he beats Tamura in being youngest, by a little over a year, I
believe.

-M.

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[Previous #3128] [Next #3130]

#3130 [2007-01-20 22:31:56]

Re: age

by kitsuno

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven" wrote:
>
>
> East Asian age reckoning:
> the current year - the year of birth + 1
>
> Therefore, it still doesn't add up.
>
> ~Seven
>

I know, but it was the straw I was grasping at.

[Previous #3129] [Next #3131]

#3131 [2007-01-20 22:36:52]

Re: age

by kitsuno

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven" wrote:

> >
> > East Asian age reckoning:
> > the current year - the year of birth + 1
> >
> > Therefore, it still doesn't add up.
> >
> > ~Seven
> >
>
> PS. Inoue Taisuke was born in 1857 so he was 12 (by East Asian age
reckoning) in 1868.
>

My sources say he was born lunar date: 12/5/1858 - 1/8/1859 by the
western calendar. So no matter how you look at it, I think the
Japanese wikipedia is just a typo.

[Previous #3130] [Next #3132]

#3132 [2007-01-21 05:06:11]

Re: age

by sevenofwiki

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Kitsuno" wrote:
>
> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven" wrote:
>
> > >
> > > East Asian age reckoning:
> > > the current year - the year of birth + 1
> > >
> > > Therefore, it still doesn't add up.
> > >
> > > ~Seven
> > >
> >
> > PS. Inoue Taisuke was born in 1857 so he was 12 (by East Asian age
> reckoning) in 1868.
> >
>
> My sources say he was born lunar date: 12/5/1858 - 1/8/1859 by the
> western calendar. So no matter how you look at it, I think the
> Japanese wikipedia is just a typo.
>

Interesting, most of my sources say he was born in 1857.

I think the Japanese wikipedia has been written by 2 or more editors regarding his age. He
could be 10, 11, or 12 by different standards.


~Seven

[Previous #3131] [Next #3133]

#3133 [2007-01-21 05:13:13]

Re: age

by sevenofwiki

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven" wrote:
>
> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Kitsuno" wrote:
> >
> > --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven" wrote:
> >
> > > >
> > > > East Asian age reckoning:
> > > > the current year - the year of birth + 1
> > > >
> > > > Therefore, it still doesn't add up.
> > > >
> > > > ~Seven
> > > >
> > >
> > > PS. Inoue Taisuke was born in 1857 so he was 12 (by East Asian age
> > reckoning) in 1868.
> > >
> >
> > My sources say he was born lunar date: 12/5/1858 - 1/8/1859 by the
> > western calendar. So no matter how you look at it, I think the
> > Japanese wikipedia is just a typo.
> >
>
> Interesting, most of my sources say he was born in 1857.
>
> I think the Japanese wikipedia has been written by 2 or more editors regarding his age.
He
> could be 10, 11, or 12 by different standards.
>
>
> ~Seven
>

I stay corrected, most of my sources say he was born in Ansei 4 so he was 12 (by East
Asian age reckoning) in Keio 4.

[Previous #3132] [Next #3134]

#3134 [2007-01-21 06:06:37]

Re: age

by sevenofwiki

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven" wrote:
>
> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven" wrote:
> >
> > --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Kitsuno" wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven" wrote:
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > East Asian age reckoning:
> > > > > the current year - the year of birth + 1
> > > > >
> > > > > Therefore, it still doesn't add up.
> > > > >
> > > > > ~Seven
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > PS. Inoue Taisuke was born in 1857 so he was 12 (by East Asian age
> > > reckoning) in 1868.
> > > >
> > >
> > > My sources say he was born lunar date: 12/5/1858 - 1/8/1859 by the
> > > western calendar. So no matter how you look at it, I think the
> > > Japanese wikipedia is just a typo.
> > >
> >
> > Interesting, most of my sources say he was born in 1857.
> >
> > I think the Japanese wikipedia has been written by 2 or more editors regarding his
age.
> He
> > could be 10, 11, or 12 by different standards.
> >
> >
> > ~Seven
> >
>
> I stay corrected, most of my sources say he was born in Ansei 4 so he was 12 (by East
> Asian age reckoning) in Keio 4.

PS. 1868 (Keio 4) - 1857 (Ansei 4; even though he was born in Jan 1858, it was still Ansei
4) + 1 = 12

[Previous #3133] [Next #3135]

#3135 [2007-01-21 16:51:19]

Re: age

by kitsuno

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven" wrote:
>
> > I stay corrected, most of my sources say he was born in Ansei 4 so
he was 12 (by East
> > Asian age reckoning) in Keio 4.
>
> PS. 1868 (Keio 4) - 1857 (Ansei 4; even though he was born in Jan
1858, it was still Ansei
> 4) + 1 = 12
>

The book I have here says 12th month of Ansei 4 - which would be
January, 1859. Guess it comes down to "nobody knows", otherwise
sources wouldn't conflict.

[Previous #3134] [Next #3136]

#3136 [2007-01-21 17:05:03]

Re: age

by sevenofwiki

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Kitsuno" wrote:
>
> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven" wrote:
> >
> > > I stay corrected, most of my sources say he was born in Ansei 4 so
> he was 12 (by East
> > > Asian age reckoning) in Keio 4.
> >
> > PS. 1868 (Keio 4) - 1857 (Ansei 4; even though he was born in Jan
> 1858, it was still Ansei
> > 4) + 1 = 12
> >
>
> The book I have here says 12th month of Ansei 4 - which would be
> January, 1859. Guess it comes down to "nobody knows", otherwise
> sources wouldn't conflict.


12th month of Ansei 4 = January, 1858 (not 1859)

I've checked the Japanese wikipedia, the current version says that Inoue Taisuke joined the
Shinsengumi at 11 and he was 11 (by East Asian age reckoning) in Keio 3.

~Seven

[Previous #3135] [Next #3137]

#3137 [2007-01-21 20:34:24]

Re: age

by kitsuno

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven" wrote:
>
>
>
> 12th month of Ansei 4 = January, 1858 (not 1859)
>
> I've checked the Japanese wikipedia, the current version says that
Inoue Taisuke joined the
> Shinsengumi at 11 and he was 11 (by East Asian age reckoning) in Keio 3.
>
> ~Seven
>

Confirmed by this:

http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/geschichte-japans/nengo_calc.htm

Looks like the book is wrong. Typo?

[Previous #3136] [Next #3138]

#3138 [2007-01-21 21:12:50]

Re: age

by sevenofwiki

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Kitsuno" wrote:
>
> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven" wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > 12th month of Ansei 4 = January, 1858 (not 1859)
> >
> > I've checked the Japanese wikipedia, the current version says that
> Inoue Taisuke joined the
> > Shinsengumi at 11 and he was 11 (by East Asian age reckoning) in Keio 3.
> >
> > ~Seven
> >
>
> Confirmed by this:
>
> http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/geschichte-japans/nengo_calc.htm
>
> Looks like the book is wrong. Typo?
>

No, the book is not wrong. He was indeed born on Ansei 4, 12. 5 (=1858. 1.19.)

Ansei
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ansei

1868 (Keio 4) - 1857 (Ansei 4; even though he was born in Jan 1858, it was still Ansei 4
and before the New Year of Ansei 5) + 1 = 12

~Seven

[Previous #3137] [Next #3139]

#3139 [2007-01-21 21:22:56]

Re: age

by sevenofwiki

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven" wrote:
>
> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Kitsuno" wrote:
> >
> > --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven" wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 12th month of Ansei 4 = January, 1858 (not 1859)
> > >
> > > I've checked the Japanese wikipedia, the current version says that
> > Inoue Taisuke joined the
> > > Shinsengumi at 11 and he was 11 (by East Asian age reckoning) in Keio 3.
> > >
> > > ~Seven
> > >
> >
> > Confirmed by this:
> >
> > http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/geschichte-japans/nengo_calc.htm
> >
> > Looks like the book is wrong. Typo?
> >
>
> No, the book is not wrong. He was indeed born on Ansei 4, 12. 5 (=1858. 1.19.)
>
> Ansei
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ansei
>
> 1868 (Keio 4) - 1857 (Ansei 4; even though he was born in Jan 1858, it was still Ansei 4
> and before the New Year of Ansei 5) + 1 = 12
>
> ~Seven
>

PS. Unless, of course, your book actually says 12th month of Ansei 4 = January, 1859. If
so, then the book is wrong.

[Previous #3138] [Next #3140]

#3140 [2007-01-22 12:27:30]

Re: age

by kitsuno

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven" wrote:
>
>
> PS. Unless, of course, your book actually says 12th month of Ansei 4
= January, 1859. If
> so, then the book is wrong.
>

It does say Jan, 1859 - hence the confusion. I checked other dates,
they all seem correct, looks like this was the only mistake- it's
the "Blood and Makoto" Rekishi Gunzo book, by the way.

[Previous #3139] [Next #3141]

#3141 [2007-01-22 15:57:01]

Re: age

by sevenofwiki

Yes, that book has errors here and there. I consider it to be a secondary source,

~Seven


--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Kitsuno" wrote:
>
> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven" wrote:
> >
> >
> > PS. Unless, of course, your book actually says 12th month of Ansei 4
> = January, 1859. If
> > so, then the book is wrong.
> >
>
> It does say Jan, 1859 - hence the confusion. I checked other dates,
> they all seem correct, looks like this was the only mistake- it's
> the "Blood and Makoto" Rekishi Gunzo book, by the way.
>

[Previous #3140] [Next #3142]

#3142 [2007-01-22 20:31:24]

Re: age

by kitsuno

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven" wrote:
>
> Yes, that book has errors here and there. I consider it to be a
secondary source,
>
> ~Seven
>

It's definately not a primary source - but I have a couple on the way
from Japan, can't wait to get my hands on them.

[Previous #3141] [Next #3143]

#3143 [2007-01-23 14:13:49]

Re: age

by secretarytocapt3

I have been informed some SHQ pages will go offline intermittently
as some pages need to be altered from htm to html and some
programming will allow for addresses to still be forwarded properly.

Shinsengumi benefactors are mentioned on
http://www.shinsengumihq.com thank you again everyone.
If you would like to give any amount please paypal
shinsengumihq@...
**************************************************

If someone is skimming these messages they may wonder what nlf7 and
kitsuno are speaking of in regards to

*primary sources

And

*secondary sources

Generally sources can be defined in this way:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_source

If we speak of the Shinsengumi here are just some primary sources
which we know exist:
- Shimada Kai's record
- Numerous letters from Kondou and Hijikata and Okita to various
friends and relatives
- Yamazaki Susumu's record book
- Nakajima Nobori's basic record
- Nagakura's account…recorded a bit later…and we know there were
actually (2) versions, one more accurate than the other…and ofcourse
what the newspaper printed over time from his account is an edited
version
- Numerous correspondences from the aforementioned three to Aizu
officials (these must exist if they have not been destroyed by
time). Ofcourse there should be the "reverse" that is Aizu official
records on the Shinsengumi as well.
- Aizu accounts by Yamakawa Hiroshi and Yamakawa Kenjiro (whose book
does mention the shinsengumi---no shock there both brothers knew
Saitou)---yet both books would have a MULTITUDE of informants,
endless voices but edited and compiled into one book with no clear
label who told them what and when

In all the items listed above there will be first hand accounts and
also second hand accounts actually mixed in.

Here is an example: Kondou in a letter said that it seems that
homosexual activities are being practiced amongst his men. Did he
hear or see this first hand? Or did someone tell him?

For example Yamazaki may have heard of something and noted it in his
book---but what did he SEE WITH HIS OWN EYES? But it is still a
*primary resource if you follow the definition that it is a "source
of information that was created at or near the time being
studied"[wiki article].

Thus what is important is evaluating sources. Off the bat it is
difficult at times to even to ***categorize sources---we just know
to exercise caution. We don't know who is more correct than the
other we should however track who is saying what, to whom and when
and if they have a personal interest in saying certain things.

As Nlf7 and Kitsuno found…there will be conflicting info.

However a book with a few errors may not be *entirely* innaccurate.
For instance if you open any book on the Meiji era...it will likely
say that it was during the Meiji era when paper money was issued.
That is absolutely wrong. However the book may have other pertinant
facts.

Don't toss the incorrect information yet…just note it all.
For example you can say
Samurai Z was born this year (in resource A)
However (resource B) says otherwise and (resource C) gives even more
different information.

I have found in my own studies that over time you will figure out
*why there are errors.

At the bottom of this page are some words of wisdom from a really
stellar resaercher who has "seen it all" in regards to Meiji Era
revisionism which has negatively affected the study of the Bakumatsu
http://www.shinsengumihq.com/shinsenresearch.html

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#3144 [2007-01-23 22:48:28]

Re: age

by sevenofwiki

Umm... we didn't find conflicting info. (We found a typo in a book.)

~Seven

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "secretary" wrote:
>
> I have been informed some SHQ pages will go offline intermittently
> as some pages need to be altered from htm to html and some
> programming will allow for addresses to still be forwarded properly.
>
> Shinsengumi benefactors are mentioned on
> http://www.shinsengumihq.com thank you again everyone.
> If you would like to give any amount please paypal
> shinsengumihq@...
> **************************************************
>
> If someone is skimming these messages they may wonder what nlf7 and
> kitsuno are speaking of in regards to
>
> *primary sources
>
> And
>
> *secondary sources
>
> Generally sources can be defined in this way:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_source
>
> If we speak of the Shinsengumi here are just some primary sources
> which we know exist:
> - Shimada Kai's record
> - Numerous letters from Kondou and Hijikata and Okita to various
> friends and relatives
> - Yamazaki Susumu's record book
> - Nakajima Nobori's basic record
> - Nagakura's account…recorded a bit later…and we know there were
> actually (2) versions, one more accurate than the other…and ofcourse
> what the newspaper printed over time from his account is an edited
> version
> - Numerous correspondences from the aforementioned three to Aizu
> officials (these must exist if they have not been destroyed by
> time). Ofcourse there should be the "reverse" that is Aizu official
> records on the Shinsengumi as well.
> - Aizu accounts by Yamakawa Hiroshi and Yamakawa Kenjiro (whose book
> does mention the shinsengumi---no shock there both brothers knew
> Saitou)---yet both books would have a MULTITUDE of informants,
> endless voices but edited and compiled into one book with no clear
> label who told them what and when
>
> In all the items listed above there will be first hand accounts and
> also second hand accounts actually mixed in.
>
> Here is an example: Kondou in a letter said that it seems that
> homosexual activities are being practiced amongst his men. Did he
> hear or see this first hand? Or did someone tell him?
>
> For example Yamazaki may have heard of something and noted it in his
> book---but what did he SEE WITH HIS OWN EYES? But it is still a
> *primary resource if you follow the definition that it is a "source
> of information that was created at or near the time being
> studied"[wiki article].
>
> Thus what is important is evaluating sources. Off the bat it is
> difficult at times to even to ***categorize sources---we just know
> to exercise caution. We don't know who is more correct than the
> other we should however track who is saying what, to whom and when
> and if they have a personal interest in saying certain things.
>
> As Nlf7 and Kitsuno found…there will be conflicting info.
>
> However a book with a few errors may not be *entirely* innaccurate.
> For instance if you open any book on the Meiji era...it will likely
> say that it was during the Meiji era when paper money was issued.
> That is absolutely wrong. However the book may have other pertinant
> facts.
>
> Don't toss the incorrect information yet…just note it all.
> For example you can say
> Samurai Z was born this year (in resource A)
> However (resource B) says otherwise and (resource C) gives even more
> different information.
>
> I have found in my own studies that over time you will figure out
> *why there are errors.
>
> At the bottom of this page are some words of wisdom from a really
> stellar resaercher who has "seen it all" in regards to Meiji Era
> revisionism which has negatively affected the study of the Bakumatsu
> http://www.shinsengumihq.com/shinsenresearch.html
>

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