>Ginnosuke,
> To the best of my knowledge, the youngest Shinsengumi was Tamura
> originally from the Iwakidaira domain near Aizu who joined up lateron with
> his two brothers and fought in the Boshin War. He joined Shinsengumiin 1867
> at age 12, and died on August 20, 1924. Those who can read Japanesemay make
> use ofHow does Inoue Taisuke fit into this? I know he was present when his
>
>between
> Well then, I stand corrected...there's no arguing with a difference
> 10 and 12/13.Did you notice that the Japanese wikipedia article has his correct
>
>Did you notice that the Japanese wikipedia article has his correctIt sure doesn't. I'm not trying to start any discord here, but to be honest,
>birthdate of 1858, but says he was 11 in 1867... That doesn't add up.
>honest,
> >Did you notice that the Japanese wikipedia article has his correct
> >birthdate of 1858, but says he was 11 in 1867... That doesn't add up.
>
> It sure doesn't. I'm not trying to start any discord here, but to be
> I did not consider the accuracy of the Japanese Wikipedia to begermane to
> the discussion at hand, therefore I didn't bring it up.Well, what I was thinking about was if prior to the 20th century the
>
> Well, what I was thinking about was if prior to the 20th century theI can vouch for that...the introduction to Conrad Totman's book
> Japanese used the "chinese" method of calling you 1 on the day of your
> birth. I was looking for the confirmation, but didn't have the fully
> formed thought until after I sent the message. By then I figured I'd
> wait to see what the response was. So - "official" question - is that
> how Japanese calculated ages prior to the 20th century?
>East Asian age reckoning:
> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Hirotada Tokugawa"wrote:
> >
> > >Did you notice that the Japanese wikipedia article has his correct
> > >birthdate of 1858, but says he was 11 in 1867... That doesn't add up.
> >
> > It sure doesn't. I'm not trying to start any discord here, but to be
> honest,
> > I did not consider the accuracy of the Japanese Wikipedia to be
> germane to
> > the discussion at hand, therefore I didn't bring it up.
> >
>
> Well, what I was thinking about was if prior to the 20th century the
> Japanese used the "chinese" method of calling you 1 on the day of your
> birth. I was looking for the confirmation, but didn't have the fully
> formed thought until after I sent the message. By then I figured I'd
> wait to see what the response was. So - "official" question - is that
> how Japanese calculated ages prior to the 20th century?
>PS. Inoue Taisuke was born in 1857 so he was 12 (by East Asian age reckoning) in 1868.
> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Kitsuno"wrote:
> >
> > --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Hirotada Tokugawa"wrote:
> > >
> > > >Did you notice that the Japanese wikipedia article has his correct
> > > >birthdate of 1858, but says he was 11 in 1867... That doesn't add up.
> > >
> > > It sure doesn't. I'm not trying to start any discord here, but to be
> > honest,
> > > I did not consider the accuracy of the Japanese Wikipedia to be
> > germane to
> > > the discussion at hand, therefore I didn't bring it up.
> > >
> >
> > Well, what I was thinking about was if prior to the 20th century the
> > Japanese used the "chinese" method of calling you 1 on the day of your
> > birth. I was looking for the confirmation, but didn't have the fully
> > formed thought until after I sent the message. By then I figured I'd
> > wait to see what the response was. So - "official" question - is that
> > how Japanese calculated ages prior to the 20th century?
>
>
> East Asian age reckoning:
> the current year - the year of birth + 1
>
> Therefore, it still doesn't add up.
>
> ~Seven
>
>I know, but it was the straw I was grasping at.
>
> East Asian age reckoning:
> the current year - the year of birth + 1
>
> Therefore, it still doesn't add up.
>
> ~Seven
>
> >reckoning) in 1868.
> > East Asian age reckoning:
> > the current year - the year of birth + 1
> >
> > Therefore, it still doesn't add up.
> >
> > ~Seven
> >
>
> PS. Inoue Taisuke was born in 1857 so he was 12 (by East Asian age
>My sources say he was born lunar date: 12/5/1858 - 1/8/1859 by the
>Interesting, most of my sources say he was born in 1857.
> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven"wrote:
>
> > >
> > > East Asian age reckoning:
> > > the current year - the year of birth + 1
> > >
> > > Therefore, it still doesn't add up.
> > >
> > > ~Seven
> > >
> >
> > PS. Inoue Taisuke was born in 1857 so he was 12 (by East Asian age
> reckoning) in 1868.
> >
>
> My sources say he was born lunar date: 12/5/1858 - 1/8/1859 by the
> western calendar. So no matter how you look at it, I think the
> Japanese wikipedia is just a typo.
>
>He
> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Kitsuno"wrote:
> >
> > --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven"wrote:
> >
> > > >
> > > > East Asian age reckoning:
> > > > the current year - the year of birth + 1
> > > >
> > > > Therefore, it still doesn't add up.
> > > >
> > > > ~Seven
> > > >
> > >
> > > PS. Inoue Taisuke was born in 1857 so he was 12 (by East Asian age
> > reckoning) in 1868.
> > >
> >
> > My sources say he was born lunar date: 12/5/1858 - 1/8/1859 by the
> > western calendar. So no matter how you look at it, I think the
> > Japanese wikipedia is just a typo.
> >
>
> Interesting, most of my sources say he was born in 1857.
>
> I think the Japanese wikipedia has been written by 2 or more editors regarding his age.
> could be 10, 11, or 12 by different standards.I stay corrected, most of my sources say he was born in Ansei 4 so he was 12 (by East
>
>
> ~Seven
>
>age.
> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven"wrote:
> >
> > --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Kitsuno"wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven"wrote:
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > East Asian age reckoning:
> > > > > the current year - the year of birth + 1
> > > > >
> > > > > Therefore, it still doesn't add up.
> > > > >
> > > > > ~Seven
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > PS. Inoue Taisuke was born in 1857 so he was 12 (by East Asian age
> > > reckoning) in 1868.
> > > >
> > >
> > > My sources say he was born lunar date: 12/5/1858 - 1/8/1859 by the
> > > western calendar. So no matter how you look at it, I think the
> > > Japanese wikipedia is just a typo.
> > >
> >
> > Interesting, most of my sources say he was born in 1857.
> >
> > I think the Japanese wikipedia has been written by 2 or more editors regarding his
> HePS. 1868 (Keio 4) - 1857 (Ansei 4; even though he was born in Jan 1858, it was still Ansei
> > could be 10, 11, or 12 by different standards.
> >
> >
> > ~Seven
> >
>
> I stay corrected, most of my sources say he was born in Ansei 4 so he was 12 (by East
> Asian age reckoning) in Keio 4.
>he was 12 (by East
> > I stay corrected, most of my sources say he was born in Ansei 4 so
> > Asian age reckoning) in Keio 4.1858, it was still Ansei
>
> PS. 1868 (Keio 4) - 1857 (Ansei 4; even though he was born in Jan
> 4) + 1 = 12The book I have here says 12th month of Ansei 4 - which would be
>
>12th month of Ansei 4 = January, 1858 (not 1859)
> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven"wrote:
> >
> > > I stay corrected, most of my sources say he was born in Ansei 4 so
> he was 12 (by East
> > > Asian age reckoning) in Keio 4.
> >
> > PS. 1868 (Keio 4) - 1857 (Ansei 4; even though he was born in Jan
> 1858, it was still Ansei
> > 4) + 1 = 12
> >
>
> The book I have here says 12th month of Ansei 4 - which would be
> January, 1859. Guess it comes down to "nobody knows", otherwise
> sources wouldn't conflict.
>Inoue Taisuke joined the
>
>
> 12th month of Ansei 4 = January, 1858 (not 1859)
>
> I've checked the Japanese wikipedia, the current version says that
> Shinsengumi at 11 and he was 11 (by East Asian age reckoning) in Keio 3.Confirmed by this:
>
> ~Seven
>
>No, the book is not wrong. He was indeed born on Ansei 4, 12. 5 (=1858. 1.19.)
> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven"wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > 12th month of Ansei 4 = January, 1858 (not 1859)
> >
> > I've checked the Japanese wikipedia, the current version says that
> Inoue Taisuke joined the
> > Shinsengumi at 11 and he was 11 (by East Asian age reckoning) in Keio 3.
> >
> > ~Seven
> >
>
> Confirmed by this:
>
> http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/geschichte-japans/nengo_calc.htm
>
> Looks like the book is wrong. Typo?
>
>PS. Unless, of course, your book actually says 12th month of Ansei 4 = January, 1859. If
> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Kitsuno"wrote:
> >
> > --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven"wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 12th month of Ansei 4 = January, 1858 (not 1859)
> > >
> > > I've checked the Japanese wikipedia, the current version says that
> > Inoue Taisuke joined the
> > > Shinsengumi at 11 and he was 11 (by East Asian age reckoning) in Keio 3.
> > >
> > > ~Seven
> > >
> >
> > Confirmed by this:
> >
> > http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/geschichte-japans/nengo_calc.htm
> >
> > Looks like the book is wrong. Typo?
> >
>
> No, the book is not wrong. He was indeed born on Ansei 4, 12. 5 (=1858. 1.19.)
>
> Ansei
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ansei
>
> 1868 (Keio 4) - 1857 (Ansei 4; even though he was born in Jan 1858, it was still Ansei 4
> and before the New Year of Ansei 5) + 1 = 12
>
> ~Seven
>
>= January, 1859. If
>
> PS. Unless, of course, your book actually says 12th month of Ansei 4
> so, then the book is wrong.It does say Jan, 1859 - hence the confusion. I checked other dates,
>
--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Kitsuno"wrote:
>
> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven"wrote:
> >
> >
> > PS. Unless, of course, your book actually says 12th month of Ansei 4
> = January, 1859. If
> > so, then the book is wrong.
> >
>
> It does say Jan, 1859 - hence the confusion. I checked other dates,
> they all seem correct, looks like this was the only mistake- it's
> the "Blood and Makoto" Rekishi Gunzo book, by the way.
>
>secondary source,
> Yes, that book has errors here and there. I consider it to be a
>It's definately not a primary source - but I have a couple on the way
> ~Seven
>
--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "secretary"wrote:
>
> I have been informed some SHQ pages will go offline intermittently
> as some pages need to be altered from htm to html and some
> programming will allow for addresses to still be forwarded properly.
>
> Shinsengumi benefactors are mentioned on
> http://www.shinsengumihq.com thank you again everyone.
> If you would like to give any amount please paypal
> shinsengumihq@...
> **************************************************
>
> If someone is skimming these messages they may wonder what nlf7 and
> kitsuno are speaking of in regards to
>
> *primary sources
>
> And
>
> *secondary sources
>
> Generally sources can be defined in this way:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_source
>
> If we speak of the Shinsengumi here are just some primary sources
> which we know exist:
> - Shimada Kai's record
> - Numerous letters from Kondou and Hijikata and Okita to various
> friends and relatives
> - Yamazaki Susumu's record book
> - Nakajima Nobori's basic record
> - Nagakura's account recorded a bit later and we know there were
> actually (2) versions, one more accurate than the other and ofcourse
> what the newspaper printed over time from his account is an edited
> version
> - Numerous correspondences from the aforementioned three to Aizu
> officials (these must exist if they have not been destroyed by
> time). Ofcourse there should be the "reverse" that is Aizu official
> records on the Shinsengumi as well.
> - Aizu accounts by Yamakawa Hiroshi and Yamakawa Kenjiro (whose book
> does mention the shinsengumi---no shock there both brothers knew
> Saitou)---yet both books would have a MULTITUDE of informants,
> endless voices but edited and compiled into one book with no clear
> label who told them what and when
>
> In all the items listed above there will be first hand accounts and
> also second hand accounts actually mixed in.
>
> Here is an example: Kondou in a letter said that it seems that
> homosexual activities are being practiced amongst his men. Did he
> hear or see this first hand? Or did someone tell him?
>
> For example Yamazaki may have heard of something and noted it in his
> book---but what did he SEE WITH HIS OWN EYES? But it is still a
> *primary resource if you follow the definition that it is a "source
> of information that was created at or near the time being
> studied"[wiki article].
>
> Thus what is important is evaluating sources. Off the bat it is
> difficult at times to even to ***categorize sources---we just know
> to exercise caution. We don't know who is more correct than the
> other we should however track who is saying what, to whom and when
> and if they have a personal interest in saying certain things.
>
> As Nlf7 and Kitsuno found there will be conflicting info.
>
> However a book with a few errors may not be *entirely* innaccurate.
> For instance if you open any book on the Meiji era...it will likely
> say that it was during the Meiji era when paper money was issued.
> That is absolutely wrong. However the book may have other pertinant
> facts.
>
> Don't toss the incorrect information yet just note it all.
> For example you can say
> Samurai Z was born this year (in resource A)
> However (resource B) says otherwise and (resource C) gives even more
> different information.
>
> I have found in my own studies that over time you will figure out
> *why there are errors.
>
> At the bottom of this page are some words of wisdom from a really
> stellar resaercher who has "seen it all" in regards to Meiji Era
> revisionism which has negatively affected the study of the Bakumatsu
> http://www.shinsengumihq.com/shinsenresearch.html
>