Ibaraki Tsukasa's death

I'm finding conflicting information for the death of Tsukasa. The
Shinsengumi book I have (Blood and Makoto: Shinsengumi - Honor and
Determination of the Mibu Roshi) says that he was killed by Ooishi
Kuwajiro (and others) after trying to leave the Shinsengumi ("He made
a request to leave the Shinsengumi, however it was not accepted, and
he was *put to the sword* [zansatsu] by Ooishi Kuwajirou (and
others)", but the Japanese Wikipedia states he commited suicide. As a
general rule, I disbelieve wikipedia first, but I'm still curious. I
did notice on the Shinsengumi HQ site he is listed as showing up on
the grave for Kondo and Hijikata he is listed as one of the people who
"Died of Illness, Executed, Assassinated, or otherwise Died Under
Unusual Circumstances".

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Kitsuno" wrote:

>
> I'm finding conflicting information for the death of Tsukasa. The
> Shinsengumi book I have (Blood and Makoto: Shinsengumi - Honor and
> Determination of the Mibu Roshi) says that he was killed by Ooishi
> Kuwajiro (and others) after trying to leave the Shinsengumi ("He made
> a request to leave the Shinsengumi, however it was not accepted, and
> he was *put to the sword* [zansatsu] by Ooishi Kuwajirou (and
> others)", but the Japanese Wikipedia states he commited suicide. As a
> general rule, I disbelieve wikipedia first, but I'm still curious. I
> did notice on the Shinsengumi HQ site he is listed as showing up on
> the grave for Kondo and Hijikata he is listed as one of the people who
> "Died of Illness, Executed, Assassinated, or otherwise Died Under
> Unusual Circumstances".
>

Looks like I just found my answer - Apparently his grave states he
commited suicide (later in the same book). So I guess it just plain
unknown what really happened.

Regarding the death of Tsukasa, there are in fact 2 theories.

By the way, have you finished reading the book yet? Please disregard the mixed-up info on
p.182-p.183 (regarding the members' origins). On one hand, the editor(s) put Nagakura
and Saitou under the Musashi scetion, but they put question marks after their names; on
the other hand, they put Okita under the Mutsu section. The editor(s) couldn't tell the
difference between one's place of birth and one's clan???

~Seven

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Kitsuno" wrote:
>
> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Kitsuno" wrote:
> >
> > I'm finding conflicting information for the death of Tsukasa. The
> > Shinsengumi book I have (Blood and Makoto: Shinsengumi - Honor and
> > Determination of the Mibu Roshi) says that he was killed by Ooishi
> > Kuwajiro (and others) after trying to leave the Shinsengumi ("He made
> > a request to leave the Shinsengumi, however it was not accepted, and
> > he was *put to the sword* [zansatsu] by Ooishi Kuwajirou (and
> > others)", but the Japanese Wikipedia states he commited suicide. As a
> > general rule, I disbelieve wikipedia first, but I'm still curious. I
> > did notice on the Shinsengumi HQ site he is listed as showing up on
> > the grave for Kondo and Hijikata he is listed as one of the people who
> > "Died of Illness, Executed, Assassinated, or otherwise Died Under
> > Unusual Circumstances".
> >
>
> Looks like I just found my answer - Apparently his grave states he
> commited suicide (later in the same book). So I guess it just plain
> unknown what really happened.
>

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven" wrote:

>
> Regarding the death of Tsukasa, there are in fact 2 theories.
>
> By the way, have you finished reading the book yet? Please disregard

the mixed-up info on

> p.182-p.183 (regarding the members' origins). On one hand, the

editor(s) put Nagakura

> and Saitou under the Musashi scetion, but they put question marks

after their names; on

> the other hand, they put Okita under the Mutsu section. The

editor(s) couldn't tell the

> difference between one's place of birth and one's clan???
>

The footnote says that for the people with the ? there are other
theories on where they are from (Saito, Nagakura, Tomikawa, Abe,
etc.). I don't know the history well enough, but are there questions
on where Nagakura and the others with question marks came from? That
seems what the map is trying to indicate.

Please disregared my last (deleted) reply. Let me rephrase this.

Are there questions on where Nagakura and the others with question marks came from?
Perhaps there are questions regarding a few members' origins (2-3 at most).

For example, Nagakura was born in Matsumae-han's residence in Edo. (clan=Matsumae of
Ezo, place of birth=Edo, Musashi). Okita was born in Shirakawa-han's residence in Edo.
(clan=Shirakawa of Mutsu, place of birth=Edo, Musashi).

If the editor(s) had wanted to list everyone's clan, then Nagakura should've been under Ezo
section instead (and without a question mark). If they had wanted to list everyone's place
of birth, then Okita should've been under Musashi section instead.

~Seven

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Kitsuno" wrote:
> I don't know the history well enough, but are there questions
> on where Nagakura and the others with question marks came from? That
> seems what the map is trying to indicate.
>

Sorry, I'm a bit tired at the moment. I'm not going to delete my reply again so here's the
part I accidentally deleted from my reply.

Perhaps there are questions regarding a few members' origins (2-3 at most) but there are
no questions about everyone else's clan or place of birth.

~Seven

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven" wrote:
>
> Please disregared my last (deleted) reply. Let me rephrase this.
>
> Are there questions on where Nagakura and the others with question marks came from?
> Perhaps there are questions regarding a few members' origins (2-3 at most).
>
> For example, Nagakura was born in Matsumae-han's residence in Edo. (clan=Matsumae
of
> Ezo, place of birth=Edo, Musashi). Okita was born in Shirakawa-han's residence in Edo.
> (clan=Shirakawa of Mutsu, place of birth=Edo, Musashi).
>
> If the editor(s) had wanted to list everyone's clan, then Nagakura should've been under
Ezo
> section instead (and without a question mark). If they had wanted to list everyone's
place
> of birth, then Okita should've been under Musashi section instead.
>
> ~Seven
>
>
> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Kitsuno" wrote:
> > I don't know the history well enough, but are there questions
> > on where Nagakura and the others with question marks came from? That
> > seems what the map is trying to indicate.
> >
>

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven" wrote:

>
> Regarding the death of Tsukasa, there are in fact 2 theories.
>
> By the way, have you finished reading the book yet?

I'm reading hillsborough's book right now, I'm just using the other
one for research for now. I'm only a couple dozen pages into
hillsborough's book, but I am finding it interesting, anyway.

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven" wrote:

>
> Sorry, I'm a bit tired at the moment. I'm not going to delete my

reply again so here's the

> part I accidentally deleted from my reply.
>
> Perhaps there are questions regarding a few members' origins (2-3 at

most) but there are

> no questions about everyone else's clan or place of birth.
>

I see your point - the use of the question marks is inconsistent.

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven" wrote:

>
> Regarding the death of Tsukasa, there are in fact 2 theories.
>
>

In regards to his death again - his actual grave states he committed
suicide, is it conceivable that for whatever reason this was to
conceal the truth of his assassination? At the moment I can't think
of a much better reason beyond preserving his honor or memory, but if
he had "friends" in the Shinsengumi, they might have wanted to give
him that much(?) But I don't know how things worked within the group
all that well, so this off the cuff thought of mine could be
completely wrong. Just wondering if something like this is unheard of.

Yes, his grave states he committed suicide. I don't believe that this was to conceal the
truth of his assassination though.

~Seven

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Kitsuno" wrote:
>
> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven" wrote:
> >
> > Regarding the death of Tsukasa, there are in fact 2 theories.
> >
> >
>
> In regards to his death again - his actual grave states he committed
> suicide, is it conceivable that for whatever reason this was to
> conceal the truth of his assassination? At the moment I can't think
> of a much better reason beyond preserving his honor or memory, but if
> he had "friends" in the Shinsengumi, they might have wanted to give
> him that much(?) But I don't know how things worked within the group
> all that well, so this off the cuff thought of mine could be
> completely wrong. Just wondering if something like this is unheard of.
>

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven" wrote:

>
> Yes, his grave states he committed suicide. I don't believe that

this was to conceal the

> truth of his assassination though.
>
> ~Seven
>

I guess the question is, what primary source states that he was killed
rather than committed suicide. That would be the place to start, anyway.

On the top of my head, I believe that Shimada mentioned something about Ibaraki
Tsukasa's assassination in his diary.

~Seven

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Kitsuno" wrote:
>
> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven" wrote:
> >
> > Yes, his grave states he committed suicide. I don't believe that
> this was to conceal the
> > truth of his assassination though.
> >
> > ~Seven
> >
>
> I guess the question is, what primary source states that he was killed
> rather than committed suicide. That would be the place to start, anyway.
>

Primiry sources I know are
Shinsengumi Shimatsuki / Nishimura Kanefumi(Nishi Hongan-ji samurai)
Hata Shigechika Nikki (He is Shinohara tainoshin)
Shinagawa Yajiro Nikki (Chushu han samurai)

Yes they are all Anti-Shinsengumi.
But they make sense though.
I coundn't find the description on Shimada Kai Nikki.

shikisoku


2006/12/29, Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...>:

>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven" wrote:
> >
> > Yes, his grave states he committed suicide. I don't believe that
> this was to conceal the
> > truth of his assassination though.
> >
> > ~Seven
> >
>
> I guess the question is, what primary source states that he was killed
> rather than committed suicide. That would be the place to start, anyway.
>
>

Sorry, I meant to say "Shinsengumi diary" (Shinsengumi Nikki by Kimura Sachihiko), not
"Shimada's diary."

Abe Juro also mentioned in his talk (dated June 2, 1899) about Ibaraki Tsukasa's
assassination.

~Seven

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "k kobayakawa" wrote:
>
> Primiry sources I know are
> Shinsengumi Shimatsuki / Nishimura Kanefumi(Nishi Hongan-ji samurai)
> Hata Shigechika Nikki (He is Shinohara tainoshin)
> Shinagawa Yajiro Nikki (Chushu han samurai)
>
> Yes they are all Anti-Shinsengumi.
> But they make sense though.
> I coundn't find the description on Shimada Kai Nikki.
>
> shikisoku
>
>
> 2006/12/29, Kitsuno :
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven" wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes, his grave states he committed suicide. I don't believe that
> > this was to conceal the
> > > truth of his assassination though.
> > >
> > > ~Seven
> > >
> >
> > I guess the question is, what primary source states that he was killed
> > rather than committed suicide. That would be the place to start, anyway.
> >
> >
>