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Kondou/Kondo and the Kobusho

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#2951 [2006-08-03 21:24:08]

Kondou/Kondo and the Kobusho

by secretarytocapt3

I know that NHK "Shinsengumi!" had depicted Kondou Isami as a Kobusho
employee and some info on that can be found at this post

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SHQ/message/574

But what WAS the Kobusho?
Was the Kobusho of NHK's "Shinsengumi!" accurate?

You can find out here
http://1happyturtle.com/Hosting/Kobusho.pdf

Anyone here have some time to write like a 1-2 paragraph summary?
The info will go on Kondou's info page properly cited and credited as
always.

Japanese books on the Shinsengumi are REALLY expensive. Does anyone
here have reference books which can check on Kondou's time in the Kobusho?

-------------------------
UPDATED
[The Rainy Day Woman's Romance With the Bakumatsu and Meiji Government]

http://www.shinsengumihq.com/unmaskmeijigovopium.htm

***again the importance of this article for our purposes is how opium
influenced that famous Bakumatsu war cry SONNO JOI***

Treaty of Amity and Commerce, Between the United States and Japan
(Signed at Yedo, July 29, 1858---ratifications exchanged at
Washington, May 22,1860)

"...The importation of opium is prohibited, and any American vessel
coming to Japan for the purposes of trade, having more than three
catties (four pounds avoirdupois) weight of opium on board, such
surplus quantity shall be seized and destroyed by the Japanese
authorities." (Gubbins 273)

source
Gubbins, J.H. The Progress of Japan 1853-1871. New York: AMS Press,
1971 (reprinted from 1911).

[Next #2952]

#2952 [2006-08-04 18:24:17]

Re: Kondou/Kondo and the Kobusho

by sevenofwiki

The Kobusho, an exclusive military training school for the Japanese warriors, was set up by
the Shogunate Government in 1855, in order to reform the military system after the arrival
of Perry's Black Ships. (Western style military science and gunnery were taught at the
school.)

In history, Kondou Isami wasn't really a Kobusho employee; he was a candidate for a
teaching position in 1862.

~Seven

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "secretary" wrote:
>
> I know that NHK "Shinsengumi!" had depicted Kondou Isami as a Kobusho
> employee and some info on that can be found at this post
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SHQ/message/574
>
> But what WAS the Kobusho?
> Was the Kobusho of NHK's "Shinsengumi!" accurate?
>
> You can find out here
> http://1happyturtle.com/Hosting/Kobusho.pdf
>
> Anyone here have some time to write like a 1-2 paragraph summary?
> The info will go on Kondou's info page properly cited and credited as
> always.
>
> Japanese books on the Shinsengumi are REALLY expensive. Does anyone
> here have reference books which can check on Kondou's time in the Kobusho?
>
> -------------------------
> UPDATED
> [The Rainy Day Woman's Romance With the Bakumatsu and Meiji Government]
>
> http://www.shinsengumihq.com/unmaskmeijigovopium.htm
>
> ***again the importance of this article for our purposes is how opium
> influenced that famous Bakumatsu war cry SONNO JOI***
>
> Treaty of Amity and Commerce, Between the United States and Japan
> (Signed at Yedo, July 29, 1858---ratifications exchanged at
> Washington, May 22,1860)
>
> "...The importation of opium is prohibited, and any American vessel
> coming to Japan for the purposes of trade, having more than three
> catties (four pounds avoirdupois) weight of opium on board, such
> surplus quantity shall be seized and destroyed by the Japanese
> authorities." (Gubbins 273)
>
> source
> Gubbins, J.H. The Progress of Japan 1853-1871. New York: AMS Press,
> 1971 (reprinted from 1911).
>

[Previous #2951] [Next #2955]

#2955 [2006-08-08 08:54:37]

Re: [SHQ] Re: Kondou/Kondo and the Kobusho

by shikisokuzekukusokuzeshiki8

Kobusho was Kenjutsu Dojo run by Bakufu(Government) to train Bakufu samurai.
Kondo was almost hired as trainer(teacher?) but was denied because of his
social rank.



2006/8/5, Seven <nlf7@...>:
>
> The Kobusho, an exclusive military training school for the Japanese
> warriors, was set up by
> the Shogunate Government in 1855, in order to reform the military system
> after the arrival
> of Perry's Black Ships. (Western style military science and gunnery were
> taught at the
> school.)
>
> In history, Kondou Isami wasn't really a Kobusho employee; he was a
> candidate for a
> teaching position in 1862.
>
> ~Seven
>
>
> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com , "secretary"
> wrote:
> >
> > I know that NHK "Shinsengumi!" had depicted Kondou Isami as a Kobusho
> > employee and some info on that can be found at this post
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SHQ/message/574
> >
> > But what WAS the Kobusho?
> > Was the Kobusho of NHK's "Shinsengumi!" accurate?
> >
> > You can find out here
> > http://1happyturtle.com/Hosting/Kobusho.pdf
> >
> > Anyone here have some time to write like a 1-2 paragraph summary?
> > The info will go on Kondou's info page properly cited and credited as
> > always.
> >
> > Japanese books on the Shinsengumi are REALLY expensive. Does anyone
> > here have reference books which can check on Kondou's time in the
> Kobusho?
> >
> > -------------------------
> > UPDATED
> > [The Rainy Day Woman's Romance With the Bakumatsu and Meiji Government]
> >
> > http://www.shinsengumihq.com/unmaskmeijigovopium.htm
> >
> > ***again the importance of this article for our purposes is how opium
> > influenced that famous Bakumatsu war cry SONNO JOI***
> >
> > Treaty of Amity and Commerce, Between the United States and Japan
> > (Signed at Yedo, July 29, 1858---ratifications exchanged at
> > Washington, May 22,1860)
> >
> > "...The importation of opium is prohibited, and any American vessel
> > coming to Japan for the purposes of trade, having more than three
> > catties (four pounds avoirdupois) weight of opium on board, such
> > surplus quantity shall be seized and destroyed by the Japanese
> > authorities." (Gubbins 273)
> >
> > source
> > Gubbins, J.H. The Progress of Japan 1853-1871. New York: AMS Press,
> > 1971 (reprinted from 1911).
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #2952] [Next #2959]

#2959 [2006-08-08 10:09:00]

Re: Kondou/Kondo and the Kobusho

by secretarytocapt3

Thank you to k kobayakawa and Seven regarding this detail about Kondo
and the Kobusho.

Part of the Shinsengumi legacy was their very mixed demographics as
ronin/roshi, or non-samurai, and then their elevation in rank once
they were sanctioned in Kyoto.

I think that there is overwhelming evidence that during that era in
Japan, certain areas had a high degree of "social blending". All the
facts to prove this comes from studies on rural peasant communities in
Edo---even more specifically TAma/Hino regions! (this may point to how
some of the top members of the Shinsengumi grew up with the
"possibility" that they too could be samurai).

However in the "formal" or administrative world of the bakufu the same
strict protocol on social class was still observed. It was the
inflexibility of the bakufu in certain areas of its system which made
it weak. Note, the bakufu was making several changes during that era too.

I'm really interested in how the Shinsengumi and Kiheitai (Choshu)
shared something similar---[[[mixed social classes]]].

Something which has bothered me about resaerch into this era is that
several books written by western writers say somthing along the lines
"the Choshu Kiheitai {Takasugi's Strange/Surprise, Irregular or
extraordinary Corps} demonstrated that they were willing to admit
commoners into the military role of the samurai and their use of
western technology showed how forward thinking they were".

During the Meiji Era, westerners who just entered into the now
enlightened Japan (according to their measurement of what was modern),
saw the Kiheitai as the exact opposite of the bakufu military force.
To the westerners, the Kiheitai were the essence of the revolution.

Simply, they were defined as being the common man who rose up against
the system.

Without looking ***deeper they interpreted the detail as an attempt to
start an egalitarian military movement and the Kiheitai was viewed as
a precursor to universal conscription (thanks to fellow Choshu samurai
Yamagata Aritomo during the Meiji). Basically, the west wanted to see
in Japan the same values they treasured---universal ideals, however
they disregarded key details.

They overlooked how the bakufu was already incorporating French
training into their ranks (since they measure progress/modernity with
who has better weapons of mass destruction).

Furthermore,

The Kiheitai commoners
1) had to dress differently
2) were treated differently (however they had to still act under
samurai rules)
3) their leaders were lower ranking samurai
4) only at most 40% (or even less than that) of the 292 Kiheitai
members as of 1864 were were actually peasants "which makes it
difficult to call the Kiheitai a peasant unit" (Hackett 26)
5) they were supported financially by the Choshu domain --however--
"merchants and farmers were also permitted to join---and used funds
supplied by merchants for part of its expense" (Hackett 25)---in fact
Takasugji mentioned a wealthy merchant, Yamashita Shishinojo of Gofuku
village "as a possible source of financial support" (Hackett 25).

-If- the Kiheitai *did not take money from commoners, would they still
feel obligated to take in those from the lower classes? Remember,
Kondo and Hijikata had rich elite peasants buddies (one was a sworn
brother of Kondo) who also gave them gifts too.
See
The Farmers of Edo and the Warriors in Kyoto
http://www.shinsengumihq.com/FarmersofEdo.htm

So I guess, I meandered off topic to compare the Shinsengumi mixed
social classes with that of the Kiheitai.

I ask, if the researchers from the west see the Kiheitai as a sure
sign of "social progress" how come they never took the same idea and
looked at the bakufu's guys...namely the Shinsengumi. So they should
analyze the Shinsengumi the same way too, did they make members from
the low class dress different, act different and so forth?

Or have they missed the obvious: The bottom line---It wasn't about
"equality" it was about getting guys to fight/die for them.

Whenever possible, higher ups had no problem with exploiting people
who bought into social stratification (remember 99.9% of people were
raised in the system) and wanted to climb the ladder to make a better
future for themselves.

Source
Hackett, Roger F. YAMAGATA ARITOMO IN THE RISE OF MODERN JAPAN
1838-1922. Harvard University Press, 1971.

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "k kobayakawa" wrote:
>
> Kobusho was Kenjutsu Dojo run by Bakufu(Government) to train Bakufu
samurai.
> Kondo was almost hired as trainer(teacher?) but was denied because
of his
> social rank.
>
>
>
> 2006/8/5, Seven :
> >
> > The Kobusho, an exclusive military training school for the Japanese
> > warriors, was set up by
> > the Shogunate Government in 1855, in order to reform the military
system
> > after the arrival
> > of Perry's Black Ships. (Western style military science and
gunnery were
> > taught at the
> > school.)
> >
> > In history, Kondou Isami wasn't really a Kobusho employee; he was a
> > candidate for a
> > teaching position in 1862.
> >
> > ~Seven
> >
> >
> > --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com , "secretary"
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > I know that NHK "Shinsengumi!" had depicted Kondou Isami as a
Kobusho
> > > employee and some info on that can be found at this post
> > >
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SHQ/message/574
> > >
> > > But what WAS the Kobusho?
> > > Was the Kobusho of NHK's "Shinsengumi!" accurate?
> > >
> > > You can find out here
> > > http://1happyturtle.com/Hosting/Kobusho.pdf
> > >
> > > Anyone here have some time to write like a 1-2 paragraph summary?
> > > The info will go on Kondou's info page properly cited and
credited as
> > > always.
> > >
> > > Japanese books on the Shinsengumi are REALLY expensive. Does anyone
> > > here have reference books which can check on Kondou's time in the
> > Kobusho?
> > >
> > > -------------------------
> > > UPDATED
> > > [The Rainy Day Woman's Romance With the Bakumatsu and Meiji
Government]
> > >
> > > http://www.shinsengumihq.com/unmaskmeijigovopium.htm
> > >
> > > ***again the importance of this article for our purposes is how
opium
> > > influenced that famous Bakumatsu war cry SONNO JOI***
> > >
> > > Treaty of Amity and Commerce, Between the United States and Japan
> > > (Signed at Yedo, July 29, 1858---ratifications exchanged at
> > > Washington, May 22,1860)
> > >
> > > "...The importation of opium is prohibited, and any American vessel
> > > coming to Japan for the purposes of trade, having more than three
> > > catties (four pounds avoirdupois) weight of opium on board, such
> > > surplus quantity shall be seized and destroyed by the Japanese
> > > authorities." (Gubbins 273)
> > >
> > > source
> > > Gubbins, J.H. The Progress of Japan 1853-1871. New York: AMS Press,
> > > 1971 (reprinted from 1911).
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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