Name Changes and Adoptions

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "zhusanna" wrote:
>
>
>
> The sudden influx of information has left me with a lot of
> questions... I'll start with just a few.
>
> < > Shinsengumi, Okita Soujirou Fujiwara no Harumasa was the Head Coach
> at the Shieikan.>> Seven
>
> I guess my first question is general - Why did people change their
> names so much? The answer to that may answer my next question - And,
> more specifically, why did/would Souji change his name from Harumasa
> to Kaneyoshi? And, the change from Soujirou to Souji? In NHK, he
> tells Heisuke something like I changed my name to match the young
> master. Based on historical truth? Or fiction?
>
> ******
>
> I know I've asked questions on adoptions before, but... When Kondou
> Shusuke adopted Okita Mitsu, was it so that she would not be Okita
> Rintaro's "sister" so that they could marry? What would Kondou
> Shusuke get in return for doing this? Was it as common to adopt
> females?
>
> ******
>
> I was a little confused by the "two Rintaro's." Same man or two
> separate people? Okita Rintaro Fusamasa (or is it Kanemasa?) was
> Mitsu's husband? And -
>
> <<"one was Inoue Rintaro Mototsune, whom bought his samurai status
> (from the Okita family) after Okita Katsujiro's death on (lunar
> calendar) October 20, 1845...">> Seven
>
> He paid the Okita family? As sort of a replacement for Katsujirou?
> After he married Souji's mother, why did he take the name Okita? Not
> to be head of the family as Katsujirou had already adopted the man
> that was to marry Mitsu? Am I completely confused?
>
> ******
>
> <<...but really you don't have to be a specialist you can be a fan
> who joins the group and asks questions, this will help the main
> writers understand the "FAQ" of the hundreds of thousands of Okita
> fans out there>> secretary
>
> I've got many Okita related questions and would be happy to ask them
> if Seven or anyone else is interested in what us Souji fans want to
> know. I'm more an expert in the area of things that are presented as
> fact in fiction - be it film, anime, or manga. Drop me a note if
> you're interested.
>
>
> I'll keep my questions to that for now. : )
>
> --Wanda
>

>
> Why did people change their names so much? It was the samurai's

> changed their name twice, but Okita had only changed his name

> would have usually kept his formal given name/middle name when he

> name but Okita changed it from Harumasa to Kaneyoshi. Why? I'm

> Though this hasn't been fully confirmed, it's generally believed

> Mototsune paid the Okita family for his samurai status (by

> family and therefore would have to change his name to Okita.) He

> young Souji.
>
> The Okita family could have needed the additional financial support

> Mototsune after Katsujirou's death. Rintarou Mototsune did serve as

> family for a short time (not sure how short...)

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "zhusanna" wrote:

Zhusanna
Could someone be adopted into one family and then into another?

secretarytocapt3
Yes they can be adopted into one family and then adopted out into
another family---however this is rare and I've only come across one
example and it is not 100% confirmed.

Generally this will not occur if the child was adopted in to be an
heir of some sort.
----------------------------------------------------
Adoption scenarios
(not necessarily pertaining to Okita---just general info)

1) in need of a male heir to continue the family name (example
Fujita Goro/Tokio adopting out their 3rd son to Tokio's cousin)

2) in need of a male heir for the lineage (e.g. martial arts, flower
arrangement, dance, art/painting, even ceramics...and numerous other
arts which require hereditary line)

3) favorite students are sometimes adopted (not necessarily to be
heirs of a line for an "art" but just adopted nonetheless)

4) adopting son-in-law to be male heir for family/lineage (example
would be Nagakura Shinpachi in the Meiji Era)

5) adopting out children in the case of "need" (family gives up son
because they cannot support all their children)

6) another weird category---very informal adoption to Buddhist monks
or Shinto shrine priests (generally out of a unable to fulfill basic
needs scenario)---which does not require paperwork
---however there are cases where Buddhist monks will adopt "sons"
and paperwork is available

7) females were also adopted (example Nakano Takeko, leader of the
Aizu Womens Brigade adopted out to another family)

*not all adoptions were "secret" (as seen in the case of the Fujita
family and Numazawa family)

*just because you were adopted out, often you could return to your
birth parents and maintain a completely normal relationship---some
cases you can also go back to your birth family as well---birth
parents or siblings can also continue to financially support the
child adopted out

*basically adoption did not mean a severence necessarily of your
blood ties

*the adoption scenarios above can be found during the Meiji Era and
even "modern" arts and sciences were "converted" to Japanese culture
example: there was this one guy who was a really awesome typesetter
(using more modern techniques) for a famous newspaper during the
Meiji Era, he wanted to teach his art and he adopted a young man

>If one could change their status through purchase or adoption then it's all just a

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "zhusanna" wrote:
>
> Calling on our knowlegdeable history people...
>
>
> >
> > Why did people change their names so much? It was the samurai's
> custom! Many samurai
> > changed their name twice, but Okita had only changed his name
> once. Yes, a samurai
> > would have usually kept his formal given name/middle name when he
> changed his (full)
> > name but Okita changed it from Harumasa to Kaneyoshi. Why? I'm
> not sure...
>
> From Wikipedia:
> "Shuusuke wasted no time in adopting the young Katsugoro in 1849, who
> first took the name of Shimazaki Katsuta, and later, Kondo Isami."
>
>
>
>
> So...What significance does the choice of name have? I thought
> perhaps a male might choose (if he hasn't already been given) a name
> to honor someone in his family. In Souji shortening his name from
> Soujirou, he is dropping the end part that is like Katsujirou. And
> in Kondou's case, he initially retained the Katsu part of his name,
> but if he changing his family name, isn't he separating himself from
> the Miyakawa family? Or was he adopted as a Shimazaki first? Could
> someone be adopted into one family and then into another?
>
>
> ****
>
>
> > Though this hasn't been fully confirmed, it's generally believed
> that Okita Rintarou
> > Mototsune paid the Okita family for his samurai status (by
> being "adopted" into the Okita
> > family and therefore would have to change his name to Okita.) He
> served as a retainer for
> > young Souji.
> >
> > The Okita family could have needed the additional financial support
> from Rintarou
> > Mototsune after Katsujirou's death. Rintarou Mototsune did serve as
> the head of the Okita
> > family for a short time (not sure how short...)
>
>
> First, if Katsujirou adopted Rintarou Kanamasa to be head of the
> Okita family because Souji was too young...what happened when Souji's
> mother married Rintarou Mototsune? RM displaced RK as head of the
> family? Then after RM's death RK was reinstated? And what would
> have happened if Souji had lived longer? Would he have replaced RK?
> Finally, if one could change their status through purchase or
> adoption then it's all just a formality?
>
> Thanks everyone for being patient with my questions!
>
> --Wanda
>

>
> Kondo Shuusuke was born Shimazaki Sekigoro(sp?) and he took the name
> Kondou when
> he became the 3rd master of the Tennen Rishin-ryu in 1830. Therefore,
> Kondou Isami was
> first adopted as a Shimazaki before he took the name Kondou sometime after
> 1858.
>
> Katsujirou could have adopted Rintarou Kanamasa before Souji's birth (but
> that's not the
> point here.) Rintarou Mototsune served as the head of the Okita family for
> a short time
> (possibly less than a year) before Rintarou Kanamasa became the head of
> the family.
> Rintarou Kanemasa was only going to remain as the head of the family until
> Souji
> got married. Had Souji lived longer, Rintarou Kanamasa's son Yoshijirou
> would probably
> have become Souji's heir (and would likely have married Souji's eldest
> daughter.) I suppose
> that it would've been acceptable if Souji's son married Rintarou
> Kanamasa's daughter
> instead. However, considering that Souji's son would've been quite a few
> years younger
> than Rintarou Kanamasa's youngest daughter, I don't think this would've
> been the case.
>
>
> >If one could change their status through purchase or adoption then it's
> all just a
> formality?
> During the Bakumatsu? more or less, perhaps.
>
> ~Seven
>
>
> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com , "zhusanna"
> wrote:
> >
> > Calling on our knowlegdeable history people...
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Why did people change their names so much? It was the samurai's
> > custom! Many samurai
> > > changed their name twice, but Okita had only changed his name
> > once. Yes, a samurai
> > > would have usually kept his formal given name/middle name when he
> > changed his (full)
> > > name but Okita changed it from Harumasa to Kaneyoshi. Why? I'm
> > not sure...
> >
> > From Wikipedia:
> > "Shuusuke wasted no time in adopting the young Katsugoro in 1849, who
> > first took the name of Shimazaki Katsuta, and later, Kondo Isami."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > So...What significance does the choice of name have? I thought
> > perhaps a male might choose (if he hasn't already been given) a name
> > to honor someone in his family. In Souji shortening his name from
> > Soujirou, he is dropping the end part that is like Katsujirou. And
> > in Kondou's case, he initially retained the Katsu part of his name,
> > but if he changing his family name, isn't he separating himself from
> > the Miyakawa family? Or was he adopted as a Shimazaki first? Could
> > someone be adopted into one family and then into another?
> >
> >
> > ****
> >
> >
> > > Though this hasn't been fully confirmed, it's generally believed
> > that Okita Rintarou
> > > Mototsune paid the Okita family for his samurai status (by
> > being "adopted" into the Okita
> > > family and therefore would have to change his name to Okita.) He
> > served as a retainer for
> > > young Souji.
> > >
> > > The Okita family could have needed the additional financial support
> > from Rintarou
> > > Mototsune after Katsujirou's death. Rintarou Mototsune did serve as
> > the head of the Okita
> > > family for a short time (not sure how short...)
> >
> >
> > First, if Katsujirou adopted Rintarou Kanamasa to be head of the
> > Okita family because Souji was too young...what happened when Souji's
> > mother married Rintarou Mototsune? RM displaced RK as head of the
> > family? Then after RM's death RK was reinstated? And what would
> > have happened if Souji had lived longer? Would he have replaced RK?
> > Finally, if one could change their status through purchase or
> > adoption then it's all just a formality?
> >
> > Thanks everyone for being patient with my questions!
> >
> > --Wanda
> >
>
>
>

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "k kobayakawa" wrote:
>
> Souji can start "Bunke", a branch family of Okita.
> Souji received Bakushin status in 1967 so his Okita line could be higher
> than Rintaro's Okita line.
>
>
> 2006/6/26, Seven :
> >
> > Kondo Shuusuke was born Shimazaki Sekigoro(sp?) and he took the name
> > Kondou when
> > he became the 3rd master of the Tennen Rishin-ryu in 1830. Therefore,
> > Kondou Isami was
> > first adopted as a Shimazaki before he took the name Kondou sometime after
> > 1858.
> >
> > Katsujirou could have adopted Rintarou Kanamasa before Souji's birth (but
> > that's not the
> > point here.) Rintarou Mototsune served as the head of the Okita family for
> > a short time
> > (possibly less than a year) before Rintarou Kanamasa became the head of
> > the family.
> > Rintarou Kanemasa was only going to remain as the head of the family until
> > Souji
> > got married. Had Souji lived longer, Rintarou Kanamasa's son Yoshijirou
> > would probably
> > have become Souji's heir (and would likely have married Souji's eldest
> > daughter.) I suppose
> > that it would've been acceptable if Souji's son married Rintarou
> > Kanamasa's daughter
> > instead. However, considering that Souji's son would've been quite a few
> > years younger
> > than Rintarou Kanamasa's youngest daughter, I don't think this would've
> > been the case.
> >
> >
> > >If one could change their status through purchase or adoption then it's
> > all just a
> > formality?
> > During the Bakumatsu? more or less, perhaps.
> >
> > ~Seven
> >
> >
> > --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com , "zhusanna"
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Calling on our knowlegdeable history people...
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Why did people change their names so much? It was the samurai's
> > > custom! Many samurai
> > > > changed their name twice, but Okita had only changed his name
> > > once. Yes, a samurai
> > > > would have usually kept his formal given name/middle name when he
> > > changed his (full)
> > > > name but Okita changed it from Harumasa to Kaneyoshi. Why? I'm
> > > not sure...
> > >
> > > From Wikipedia:
> > > "Shuusuke wasted no time in adopting the young Katsugoro in 1849, who
> > > first took the name of Shimazaki Katsuta, and later, Kondo Isami."
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > So...What significance does the choice of name have? I thought
> > > perhaps a male might choose (if he hasn't already been given) a name
> > > to honor someone in his family. In Souji shortening his name from
> > > Soujirou, he is dropping the end part that is like Katsujirou. And
> > > in Kondou's case, he initially retained the Katsu part of his name,
> > > but if he changing his family name, isn't he separating himself from
> > > the Miyakawa family? Or was he adopted as a Shimazaki first? Could
> > > someone be adopted into one family and then into another?
> > >
> > >
> > > ****
> > >
> > >
> > > > Though this hasn't been fully confirmed, it's generally believed
> > > that Okita Rintarou
> > > > Mototsune paid the Okita family for his samurai status (by
> > > being "adopted" into the Okita
> > > > family and therefore would have to change his name to Okita.) He
> > > served as a retainer for
> > > > young Souji.
> > > >
> > > > The Okita family could have needed the additional financial support
> > > from Rintarou
> > > > Mototsune after Katsujirou's death. Rintarou Mototsune did serve as
> > > the head of the Okita
> > > > family for a short time (not sure how short...)
> > >
> > >
> > > First, if Katsujirou adopted Rintarou Kanamasa to be head of the
> > > Okita family because Souji was too young...what happened when Souji's
> > > mother married Rintarou Mototsune? RM displaced RK as head of the
> > > family? Then after RM's death RK was reinstated? And what would
> > > have happened if Souji had lived longer? Would he have replaced RK?
> > > Finally, if one could change their status through purchase or
> > > adoption then it's all just a formality?
> > >
> > > Thanks everyone for being patient with my questions!
> > >
> > > --Wanda
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

>
> True...
>
> However, even though Okita Souji received Bakushin status in 1867, the
> shogunate
> government was overthrown in 1868.
>
> ~Seven
>
>
> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com , "k kobayakawa"
> wrote:
> >
> > Souji can start "Bunke", a branch family of Okita.
> > Souji received Bakushin status in 1967 so his Okita line could be higher
> > than Rintaro's Okita line.
> >
> >
> > 2006/6/26, Seven :
>
> > >
> > > Kondo Shuusuke was born Shimazaki Sekigoro(sp?) and he took the name
> > > Kondou when
> > > he became the 3rd master of the Tennen Rishin-ryu in 1830. Therefore,
> > > Kondou Isami was
> > > first adopted as a Shimazaki before he took the name Kondou sometime
> after
> > > 1858.
> > >
> > > Katsujirou could have adopted Rintarou Kanamasa before Souji's birth
> (but
> > > that's not the
> > > point here.) Rintarou Mototsune served as the head of the Okita family
> for
> > > a short time
> > > (possibly less than a year) before Rintarou Kanamasa became the head
> of
> > > the family.
> > > Rintarou Kanemasa was only going to remain as the head of the family
> until
> > > Souji
> > > got married. Had Souji lived longer, Rintarou Kanamasa's son
> Yoshijirou
> > > would probably
> > > have become Souji's heir (and would likely have married Souji's eldest
> > > daughter.) I suppose
> > > that it would've been acceptable if Souji's son married Rintarou
> > > Kanamasa's daughter
> > > instead. However, considering that Souji's son would've been quite a
> few
> > > years younger
> > > than Rintarou Kanamasa's youngest daughter, I don't think this
> would've
> > > been the case.
> > >
> > >
> > > >If one could change their status through purchase or adoption then
> it's
> > > all just a
> > > formality?
> > > During the Bakumatsu? more or less, perhaps.
> > >
> > > ~Seven
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com , "zhusanna"
>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Calling on our knowlegdeable history people...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Why did people change their names so much? It was the samurai's
> > > > custom! Many samurai
> > > > > changed their name twice, but Okita had only changed his name
> > > > once. Yes, a samurai
> > > > > would have usually kept his formal given name/middle name when he
> > > > changed his (full)
> > > > > name but Okita changed it from Harumasa to Kaneyoshi. Why? I'm
> > > > not sure...
> > > >
> > > > From Wikipedia:
> > > > "Shuusuke wasted no time in adopting the young Katsugoro in 1849,
> who
> > > > first took the name of Shimazaki Katsuta, and later, Kondo Isami."
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > So...What significance does the choice of name have? I thought
> > > > perhaps a male might choose (if he hasn't already been given) a name
> > > > to honor someone in his family. In Souji shortening his name from
> > > > Soujirou, he is dropping the end part that is like Katsujirou. And
> > > > in Kondou's case, he initially retained the Katsu part of his name,
> > > > but if he changing his family name, isn't he separating himself from
> > > > the Miyakawa family? Or was he adopted as a Shimazaki first? Could
> > > > someone be adopted into one family and then into another?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ****
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Though this hasn't been fully confirmed, it's generally believed
> > > > that Okita Rintarou
> > > > > Mototsune paid the Okita family for his samurai status (by
> > > > being "adopted" into the Okita
> > > > > family and therefore would have to change his name to Okita.) He
> > > > served as a retainer for
> > > > > young Souji.
> > > > >
> > > > > The Okita family could have needed the additional financial
> support
> > > > from Rintarou
> > > > > Mototsune after Katsujirou's death. Rintarou Mototsune did serve
> as
> > > > the head of the Okita
> > > > > family for a short time (not sure how short...)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > First, if Katsujirou adopted Rintarou Kanamasa to be head of the
> > > > Okita family because Souji was too young...what happened when
> Souji's
> > > > mother married Rintarou Mototsune? RM displaced RK as head of the
> > > > family? Then after RM's death RK was reinstated? And what would
> > > > have happened if Souji had lived longer? Would he have replaced RK?
> > > > Finally, if one could change their status through purchase or
> > > > adoption then it's all just a formality?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks everyone for being patient with my questions!
> > > >
> > > > --Wanda
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "k kobayakawa" wrote:
>
> Well, we were talking about "if".
> But still he can start Bunke.
> Bunke, Honke is nothing to do with Shogunate.
>
>
> 2006/6/29, Seven :
> >
> > True...
> >
> > However, even though Okita Souji received Bakushin status in 1867, the
> > shogunate
> > government was overthrown in 1868.
> >
> > ~Seven
> >
> >
> > --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com , "k kobayakawa"
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Souji can start "Bunke", a branch family of Okita.
> > > Souji received Bakushin status in 1967 so his Okita line could be higher
> > > than Rintaro's Okita line.
> > >
> > >
> > > 2006/6/26, Seven :
> >
> > > >
> > > > Kondo Shuusuke was born Shimazaki Sekigoro(sp?) and he took the name
> > > > Kondou when
> > > > he became the 3rd master of the Tennen Rishin-ryu in 1830. Therefore,
> > > > Kondou Isami was
> > > > first adopted as a Shimazaki before he took the name Kondou sometime
> > after
> > > > 1858.
> > > >
> > > > Katsujirou could have adopted Rintarou Kanamasa before Souji's birth
> > (but
> > > > that's not the
> > > > point here.) Rintarou Mototsune served as the head of the Okita family
> > for
> > > > a short time
> > > > (possibly less than a year) before Rintarou Kanamasa became the head
> > of
> > > > the family.
> > > > Rintarou Kanemasa was only going to remain as the head of the family
> > until
> > > > Souji
> > > > got married. Had Souji lived longer, Rintarou Kanamasa's son
> > Yoshijirou
> > > > would probably
> > > > have become Souji's heir (and would likely have married Souji's eldest
> > > > daughter.) I suppose
> > > > that it would've been acceptable if Souji's son married Rintarou
> > > > Kanamasa's daughter
> > > > instead. However, considering that Souji's son would've been quite a
> > few
> > > > years younger
> > > > than Rintarou Kanamasa's youngest daughter, I don't think this
> > would've
> > > > been the case.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >If one could change their status through purchase or adoption then
> > it's
> > > > all just a
> > > > formality?
> > > > During the Bakumatsu? more or less, perhaps.
> > > >
> > > > ~Seven
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com
, "zhusanna"
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Calling on our knowlegdeable history people...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Why did people change their names so much? It was the samurai's
> > > > > custom! Many samurai
> > > > > > changed their name twice, but Okita had only changed his name
> > > > > once. Yes, a samurai
> > > > > > would have usually kept his formal given name/middle name when he
> > > > > changed his (full)
> > > > > > name but Okita changed it from Harumasa to Kaneyoshi. Why? I'm
> > > > > not sure...
> > > > >
> > > > > From Wikipedia:
> > > > > "Shuusuke wasted no time in adopting the young Katsugoro in 1849,
> > who
> > > > > first took the name of Shimazaki Katsuta, and later, Kondo Isami."
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > So...What significance does the choice of name have? I thought
> > > > > perhaps a male might choose (if he hasn't already been given) a name
> > > > > to honor someone in his family. In Souji shortening his name from
> > > > > Soujirou, he is dropping the end part that is like Katsujirou. And
> > > > > in Kondou's case, he initially retained the Katsu part of his name,
> > > > > but if he changing his family name, isn't he separating himself from
> > > > > the Miyakawa family? Or was he adopted as a Shimazaki first? Could
> > > > > someone be adopted into one family and then into another?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ****
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Though this hasn't been fully confirmed, it's generally believed
> > > > > that Okita Rintarou
> > > > > > Mototsune paid the Okita family for his samurai status (by
> > > > > being "adopted" into the Okita
> > > > > > family and therefore would have to change his name to Okita.) He
> > > > > served as a retainer for
> > > > > > young Souji.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The Okita family could have needed the additional financial
> > support
> > > > > from Rintarou
> > > > > > Mototsune after Katsujirou's death. Rintarou Mototsune did serve
> > as
> > > > > the head of the Okita
> > > > > > family for a short time (not sure how short...)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > First, if Katsujirou adopted Rintarou Kanamasa to be head of the
> > > > > Okita family because Souji was too young...what happened when
> > Souji's
> > > > > mother married Rintarou Mototsune? RM displaced RK as head of the
> > > > > family? Then after RM's death RK was reinstated? And what would
> > > > > have happened if Souji had lived longer? Would he have replaced RK?
> > > > > Finally, if one could change their status through purchase or
> > > > > adoption then it's all just a formality?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks everyone for being patient with my questions!
> > > > >
> > > > > --Wanda
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

>Then, he would've followed the "plan" to become the head of the family and

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven" wrote:
>
> Yes, we were talking about if Okita had lived longer.
>
> I understand what you're saying. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
The samurai class was
> abolished within years after the Shogunate government was
overthrown and whether Okita
> received Bakushin status in 1867 wouldn't have mattered at that
point, would it? Then, he
> would've followed the "plan" to become the head of the family and
name Yoshijirou as his
> heir (he would't have a "reason" to start a Bunke of his own,
wouldn't he? )
>
> ~Seven
>
>
>
> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "k kobayakawa" wrote:
> >
> > Well, we were talking about "if".
> > But still he can start Bunke.
> > Bunke, Honke is nothing to do with Shogunate.
> >
> >
> > 2006/6/29, Seven :
> > >
> > > True...
> > >
> > > However, even though Okita Souji received Bakushin status in
1867, the
> > > shogunate
> > > government was overthrown in 1868.
> > >
> > > ~Seven
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com , "k
kobayakawa"
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Souji can start "Bunke", a branch family of Okita.
> > > > Souji received Bakushin status in 1967 so his Okita line
could be higher
> > > > than Rintaro's Okita line.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 2006/6/26, Seven :
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Kondo Shuusuke was born Shimazaki Sekigoro(sp?) and he
took the name
> > > > > Kondou when
> > > > > he became the 3rd master of the Tennen Rishin-ryu in 1830.
Therefore,
> > > > > Kondou Isami was
> > > > > first adopted as a Shimazaki before he took the name
Kondou sometime
> > > after
> > > > > 1858.
> > > > >
> > > > > Katsujirou could have adopted Rintarou Kanamasa before
Souji's birth
> > > (but
> > > > > that's not the
> > > > > point here.) Rintarou Mototsune served as the head of the
Okita family
> > > for
> > > > > a short time
> > > > > (possibly less than a year) before Rintarou Kanamasa
became the head
> > > of
> > > > > the family.
> > > > > Rintarou Kanemasa was only going to remain as the head of
the family
> > > until
> > > > > Souji
> > > > > got married. Had Souji lived longer, Rintarou Kanamasa's
son
> > > Yoshijirou
> > > > > would probably
> > > > > have become Souji's heir (and would likely have married
Souji's eldest
> > > > > daughter.) I suppose
> > > > > that it would've been acceptable if Souji's son married
Rintarou
> > > > > Kanamasa's daughter
> > > > > instead. However, considering that Souji's son would've
been quite a
> > > few
> > > > > years younger
> > > > > than Rintarou Kanamasa's youngest daughter, I don't think
this
> > > would've
> > > > > been the case.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >If one could change their status through purchase or
adoption then
> > > it's
> > > > > all just a
> > > > > formality?
> > > > > During the Bakumatsu? more or less, perhaps.
> > > > >
> > > > > ~Seven
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com
> , "zhusanna"
> > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Calling on our knowlegdeable history people...
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Why did people change their names so much? It was the
samurai's
> > > > > > custom! Many samurai
> > > > > > > changed their name twice, but Okita had only changed
his name
> > > > > > once. Yes, a samurai
> > > > > > > would have usually kept his formal given name/middle
name when he
> > > > > > changed his (full)
> > > > > > > name but Okita changed it from Harumasa to Kaneyoshi.
Why? I'm
> > > > > > not sure...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From Wikipedia:
> > > > > > "Shuusuke wasted no time in adopting the young Katsugoro
in 1849,
> > > who
> > > > > > first took the name of Shimazaki Katsuta, and later,
Kondo Isami."
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So...What significance does the choice of name have? I
thought
> > > > > > perhaps a male might choose (if he hasn't already been
given) a name
> > > > > > to honor someone in his family. In Souji shortening his
name from
> > > > > > Soujirou, he is dropping the end part that is like
Katsujirou. And
> > > > > > in Kondou's case, he initially retained the Katsu part
of his name,
> > > > > > but if he changing his family name, isn't he separating
himself from
> > > > > > the Miyakawa family? Or was he adopted as a Shimazaki
first? Could
> > > > > > someone be adopted into one family and then into another?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ****
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Though this hasn't been fully confirmed, it's
generally believed
> > > > > > that Okita Rintarou
> > > > > > > Mototsune paid the Okita family for his samurai status
(by
> > > > > > being "adopted" into the Okita
> > > > > > > family and therefore would have to change his name to
Okita.) He
> > > > > > served as a retainer for
> > > > > > > young Souji.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The Okita family could have needed the additional
financial
> > > support
> > > > > > from Rintarou
> > > > > > > Mototsune after Katsujirou's death. Rintarou Mototsune
did serve
> > > as
> > > > > > the head of the Okita
> > > > > > > family for a short time (not sure how short...)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > First, if Katsujirou adopted Rintarou Kanamasa to be
head of the
> > > > > > Okita family because Souji was too young...what happened
when
> > > Souji's
> > > > > > mother married Rintarou Mototsune? RM displaced RK as
head of the
> > > > > > family? Then after RM's death RK was reinstated? And
what would
> > > > > > have happened if Souji had lived longer? Would he have
replaced RK?
> > > > > > Finally, if one could change their status through
purchase or
> > > > > > adoption then it's all just a formality?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks everyone for being patient with my questions!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --Wanda
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "secretary" wrote:
>
> Many feudal institutions were abolished on paper but not in reality.
>
> People who were once of the samurai social class were generally
> noted as shizoku...another example would be heimin which comprised
> of the largest chunk of society (anything from artisans, merchants
> and also farmers). For instance, texts will say "The Seinan War may
> be regarded as a shizoku rebellion". Meaning former Satsuma samurai
> (who still considered themselves to be samurai ofcourse). The
> Fujita Family were categorized as heimin.
>
> Even after 1868, your social roots still continued to be very
> important. Interestingly, many students at a school I studied
> noted "shizoku" status even though their parents were engaged in
> merchant work in the Meiji Era. Thus, 1868 cannot really be
> considered to be a cut off date for how people think about their
> social class.
>
> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven" wrote:
> >
> > Yes, we were talking about if Okita had lived longer.
> >
> > I understand what you're saying. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
> The samurai class was
> > abolished within years after the Shogunate government was
> overthrown and whether Okita
> > received Bakushin status in 1867 wouldn't have mattered at that
> point, would it? Then, he
> > would've followed the "plan" to become the head of the family and
> name Yoshijirou as his
> > heir (he would't have a "reason" to start a Bunke of his own,
> wouldn't he? )
> >
> > ~Seven
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "k kobayakawa" wrote:
> > >
> > > Well, we were talking about "if".
> > > But still he can start Bunke.
> > > Bunke, Honke is nothing to do with Shogunate.
> > >
> > >
> > > 2006/6/29, Seven :
> > > >
> > > > True...
> > > >
> > > > However, even though Okita Souji received Bakushin status in
> 1867, the
> > > > shogunate
> > > > government was overthrown in 1868.
> > > >
> > > > ~Seven
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com , "k
> kobayakawa"
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Souji can start "Bunke", a branch family of Okita.
> > > > > Souji received Bakushin status in 1967 so his Okita line
> could be higher
> > > > > than Rintaro's Okita line.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 2006/6/26, Seven :
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Kondo Shuusuke was born Shimazaki Sekigoro(sp?) and he
> took the name
> > > > > > Kondou when
> > > > > > he became the 3rd master of the Tennen Rishin-ryu in 1830.
> Therefore,
> > > > > > Kondou Isami was
> > > > > > first adopted as a Shimazaki before he took the name
> Kondou sometime
> > > > after
> > > > > > 1858.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Katsujirou could have adopted Rintarou Kanamasa before
> Souji's birth
> > > > (but
> > > > > > that's not the
> > > > > > point here.) Rintarou Mototsune served as the head of the
> Okita family
> > > > for
> > > > > > a short time
> > > > > > (possibly less than a year) before Rintarou Kanamasa
> became the head
> > > > of
> > > > > > the family.
> > > > > > Rintarou Kanemasa was only going to remain as the head of
> the family
> > > > until
> > > > > > Souji
> > > > > > got married. Had Souji lived longer, Rintarou Kanamasa's
> son
> > > > Yoshijirou
> > > > > > would probably
> > > > > > have become Souji's heir (and would likely have married
> Souji's eldest
> > > > > > daughter.) I suppose
> > > > > > that it would've been acceptable if Souji's son married
> Rintarou
> > > > > > Kanamasa's daughter
> > > > > > instead. However, considering that Souji's son would've
> been quite a
> > > > few
> > > > > > years younger
> > > > > > than Rintarou Kanamasa's youngest daughter, I don't think
> this
> > > > would've
> > > > > > been the case.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >If one could change their status through purchase or
> adoption then
> > > > it's
> > > > > > all just a
> > > > > > formality?
> > > > > > During the Bakumatsu? more or less, perhaps.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ~Seven
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com
> > , "zhusanna"
> > > >
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Calling on our knowlegdeable history people...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Why did people change their names so much? It was the
> samurai's
> > > > > > > custom! Many samurai
> > > > > > > > changed their name twice, but Okita had only changed
> his name
> > > > > > > once. Yes, a samurai
> > > > > > > > would have usually kept his formal given name/middle
> name when he
> > > > > > > changed his (full)
> > > > > > > > name but Okita changed it from Harumasa to Kaneyoshi.
> Why? I'm
> > > > > > > not sure...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > From Wikipedia:
> > > > > > > "Shuusuke wasted no time in adopting the young Katsugoro
> in 1849,
> > > > who
> > > > > > > first took the name of Shimazaki Katsuta, and later,
> Kondo Isami."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So...What significance does the choice of name have? I
> thought
> > > > > > > perhaps a male might choose (if he hasn't already been
> given) a name
> > > > > > > to honor someone in his family. In Souji shortening his
> name from
> > > > > > > Soujirou, he is dropping the end part that is like
> Katsujirou. And
> > > > > > > in Kondou's case, he initially retained the Katsu part
> of his name,
> > > > > > > but if he changing his family name, isn't he separating
> himself from
> > > > > > > the Miyakawa family? Or was he adopted as a Shimazaki
> first? Could
> > > > > > > someone be adopted into one family and then into another?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ****
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Though this hasn't been fully confirmed, it's
> generally believed
> > > > > > > that Okita Rintarou
> > > > > > > > Mototsune paid the Okita family for his samurai status
> (by
> > > > > > > being "adopted" into the Okita
> > > > > > > > family and therefore would have to change his name to
> Okita.) He
> > > > > > > served as a retainer for
> > > > > > > > young Souji.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The Okita family could have needed the additional
> financial
> > > > support
> > > > > > > from Rintarou
> > > > > > > > Mototsune after Katsujirou's death. Rintarou Mototsune
> did serve
> > > > as
> > > > > > > the head of the Okita
> > > > > > > > family for a short time (not sure how short...)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > First, if Katsujirou adopted Rintarou Kanamasa to be
> head of the
> > > > > > > Okita family because Souji was too young...what happened
> when
> > > > Souji's
> > > > > > > mother married Rintarou Mototsune? RM displaced RK as
> head of the
> > > > > > > family? Then after RM's death RK was reinstated? And
> what would
> > > > > > > have happened if Souji had lived longer? Would he have
> replaced RK?
> > > > > > > Finally, if one could change their status through
> purchase or
> > > > > > > adoption then it's all just a formality?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks everyone for being patient with my questions!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --Wanda
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "k kobayakawa" wrote:
>
> My meaning of "if " was also if Shogunate wasn't collapsed.
>
> >Then, he would've followed the "plan" to become the head of the family and
> name Yoshijirou as his
> heir.
>
> Is "he" Souji?
> Souji don't have to be the head of Okita family since Rintaro took it.
> Yoshijirou can be heir without doing nothing.
>
> I've read somewhere that Souji's mother sold Samurai status to Rintaro's
> father.
> (That's why Mistu was adopted to Kondo family to marry him?)
> If so, Souji can't be the head of Okita family anymore.
>
> Or Souji might be adopted to Kondo family to become Shieikan dojo master.
>
> Anyway, Okita family is so complicated.
> Some researchers even doubt that Souji was really Katsujiro's son or not.
> http://shougo.blog4.fc2.com/blog-entry-128.html
>
> Adoption was sooo common in those days.
> My great great grandpa was adopted from other family, and one of descendant
> of the family and I were classmates in local elementary school!
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

>
> Rintaro Mototsune (Rintarou Kanemasa's uncle) bought his samurai status
> from the Okita
> family after Okita Katsujiro's death and he adopted Souji (Mori, p.10 -
> p.11).
>
> Okita Soji Feature by Mori, p.10-p.11
> http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/SHQ/photos/view/8b5a?b=1&m=f&o=0
>
> Okita Soji Feature by Mori, p.12-p.13
> http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/SHQ/photos/view/8b5a?b=2
>
> I've read that the "plan" was for Souji to become the head of the Okita
> family from Oji's
> book "Walking with Okita Soji" (Oji, p.39). Since Okita was the heir of
> the Okita Family,
> Kondo Shuske wasn't able to (formally) adopt him even though Okita was
> raised by both
> the Okita family and the Kondo family. Although the Kondo family could not
> adopt Okita,
> Kondou Isami still named Okita to be the fifth master of the Tennen Rishin
> Ryu after him in
> 1865.
>
>
> ~Seven
>
> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com , "k kobayakawa"
> wrote:
> >
> > My meaning of "if " was also if Shogunate wasn't collapsed.
> >
> > >Then, he would've followed the "plan" to become the head of the family
> and
> > name Yoshijirou as his
> > heir.
> >
> > Is "he" Souji?
> > Souji don't have to be the head of Okita family since Rintaro took it.
> > Yoshijirou can be heir without doing nothing.
> >
> > I've read somewhere that Souji's mother sold Samurai status to Rintaro's
> > father.
> > (That's why Mistu was adopted to Kondo family to marry him?)
> > If so, Souji can't be the head of Okita family anymore.
> >
> > Or Souji might be adopted to Kondo family to become Shieikan dojo
> master.
> >
> > Anyway, Okita family is so complicated.
> > Some researchers even doubt that Souji was really Katsujiro's son or
> not.
> > http://shougo.blog4.fc2.com/blog-entry-128.html
> >
> > Adoption was sooo common in those days.
> > My great great grandpa was adopted from other family, and one of
> descendant
> > of the family and I were classmates in local elementary school!
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>

>I am not saying you were wrong.
>We are talking about "IF" right?

>Some researchers say Souji wasn't Katsujiro's son,

>some say Souji had a child.

>Would he have gone to Hakodate?

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "k kobayakawa" wrote:
>
> Hey hey I am not saying you were wrong.
> We are talking about "IF" right?
> So there were possibility to have Bunke or being adopted to Kondo family.
> Souji didn't have to take Okita family because Rintarou got the Katoku.ｲﾈﾆﾄ
>
> There are so much mysteries around Souji.
> Some researchers say Souji wasn't Katsujiro's son, some say Souji had a
> child.
>
> By the way, If Souji wasn't sick.
> Would he have gone to Hakodate?
>
>
>
>
>
> 2006/7/1, Seven :
> >
> > Rintaro Mototsune (Rintarou Kanemasa's uncle) bought his samurai status
> > from the Okita
> > family after Okita Katsujiro's death and he adopted Souji (Mori, p.10 -
> > p.11).
> >
> > Okita Soji Feature by Mori, p.10-p.11
> > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/SHQ/photos/view/8b5a?b=1&m=f&o=0
> >
> > Okita Soji Feature by Mori, p.12-p.13
> > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/SHQ/photos/view/8b5a?b=2
> >
> > I've read that the "plan" was for Souji to become the head of the Okita
> > family from Oji's
> > book "Walking with Okita Soji" (Oji, p.39). Since Okita was the heir of
> > the Okita Family,
> > Kondo Shuske wasn't able to (formally) adopt him even though Okita was
> > raised by both
> > the Okita family and the Kondo family. Although the Kondo family could not
> > adopt Okita,
> > Kondou Isami still named Okita to be the fifth master of the Tennen Rishin
> > Ryu after him in
> > 1865.
> >
> >
> > ~Seven
> >
> > --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com , "k kobayakawa"
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > My meaning of "if " was also if Shogunate wasn't collapsed.
> > >
> > > >Then, he would've followed the "plan" to become the head of the family
> > and
> > > name Yoshijirou as his
> > > heir.
> > >
> > > Is "he" Souji?
> > > Souji don't have to be the head of Okita family since Rintaro took it.
> > > Yoshijirou can be heir without doing nothing.
> > >
> > > I've read somewhere that Souji's mother sold Samurai status to Rintaro's
> > > father.
> > > (That's why Mistu was adopted to Kondo family to marry him?)
> > > If so, Souji can't be the head of Okita family anymore.
> > >
> > > Or Souji might be adopted to Kondo family to become Shieikan dojo
> > master.
> > >
> > > Anyway, Okita family is so complicated.
> > > Some researchers even doubt that Souji was really Katsujiro's son or
> > not.
> > > http://shougo.blog4.fc2.com/blog-entry-128.html
> > >
> > > Adoption was sooo common in those days.
> > > My great great grandpa was adopted from other family, and one of
> > descendant
> > > of the family and I were classmates in local elementary school!
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

>
> Kondo Shuusuke was born Shimazaki Sekigoro(sp?) and he took the
>name Kondou when he became the 3rd master of the Tennen Rishin-ryu
>in 1830. Therefore, Kondou Isami was first adopted as a Shimazaki
>before he took the name Kondou sometime after 1858.
>

> Katsujirou could have adopted Rintarou Kanamasa before Souji's
>birth (but that's not the point here.) Rintarou Mototsune served as
>the head of the Okita family for a short time (possibly less than a
>year) before Rintarou Kanamasa became the head of the family.
> Rintarou Kanemasa was only going to remain as the head of the
>family until Souji got married. Had Souji lived longer, Rintarou
>Kanamasa's son Yoshijirou would probably have become Souji's heir
>and would likely have married Souji's eldest daughter.) I suppose
> that it would've been acceptable if Souji's son married Rintarou
>Kanamasa's daughter instead. However, considering that Souji's son
>would've been quite a few years younger than Rintarou Kanamasa's
>youngest daughter, I don't think this would've been the case.
>

>Souji can start "Bunke", a branch family of Okita.
>Souji received Bakushin status in 1967 so his Okita line could be
>higher than Rintaro's Okita line.

>Souji had started a branch family, is that considered a separate
>family altogether, or does that put Rintaro and his family in an
>inferior position within Souji's family?

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "zhusanna" wrote:
>
>
> >
> > Kondo Shuusuke was born Shimazaki Sekigoro(sp?) and he took the
> >name Kondou when he became the 3rd master of the Tennen Rishin-ryu
> >in 1830. Therefore, Kondou Isami was first adopted as a Shimazaki
> >before he took the name Kondou sometime after 1858.
> >
>
>
>
> So, wait.....if Kondou Isami had adopted an heir, this heir would
> have to be adopted first as a Miyagawa, then as a Shimazaki, then as
> a Kondou?? How much time had to pass between adoptions? Didn't all
> this adopting get confusing?
>
>
>
> > Katsujirou could have adopted Rintarou Kanamasa before Souji's
> >birth (but that's not the point here.) Rintarou Mototsune served as
> >the head of the Okita family for a short time (possibly less than a
> >year) before Rintarou Kanamasa became the head of the family.
> > Rintarou Kanemasa was only going to remain as the head of the
> >family until Souji got married. Had Souji lived longer, Rintarou
> >Kanamasa's son Yoshijirou would probably have become Souji's heir
> >and would likely have married Souji's eldest daughter.) I suppose
> > that it would've been acceptable if Souji's son married Rintarou
> >Kanamasa's daughter instead. However, considering that Souji's son
> >would've been quite a few years younger than Rintarou Kanamasa's
> >youngest daughter, I don't think this would've been the case.
> >
>
>
>
> If Rintaro Kanamasa was only "holding" the heir position for Souji
> until he got married, why wouldn't Souji's son (if he had had one) be
> Souji's heir? What would Rintaro's son have to do with anything
> now? Because Rintaro was holding that position, did that make Souji
> obligated to him? Couldn't Souji have done whatever he wanted since
> he would be head of the family?
>
>
>
> >Souji can start "Bunke", a branch family of Okita.
> >Souji received Bakushin status in 1967 so his Okita line could be
> >higher than Rintaro's Okita line.
>
>
> If Souji had started a branch family, is that considered a separate
> family altogether, or does that put Rintaro and his family in an
> inferior position within Souji's family?
>
>
> --Wanda
>

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven" wrote:
>
> Actually, Isami's nephew Miyagawa Yugorou became his heir. (In 1876, Yugorou married
> Isami's daughter, became the fifth master of the Tennen Rishin-ryu, and changed his
> name to Kondou Yuugorou.)
>
> I suppose that Souji's son could be Souji's heir. Yoshijirou could also be the head of the
> family after Souji and before Souji's son. My guess is relevantly based on the Okita
family
> history through four generations.
>
> Ten years after Rintarou Kanemasa's death, Yoshijirou died in 1895, at age 43 (by East
> Asian age reckoning.) His grave is next to Souji's, by the way. Yoshijirou's heir/eldest
son
> Juji (sp?) died in 1910, at age 23 (by East Asian age reckoning.) After Juji's death, his
> younger brother became the head of the Okita family.
>
> >Souji had started a branch family, is that considered a separate
> >family altogether, or does that put Rintaro and his family in an
> >inferior position within Souji's family?
> It's considered a branch family that doesn't put Rintaro and his family in an
> inferior position within Souji's family (I think...)
>
> ~Seven
>
> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "zhusanna" wrote:
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Kondo Shuusuke was born Shimazaki Sekigoro(sp?) and he took the
> > >name Kondou when he became the 3rd master of the Tennen Rishin-ryu
> > >in 1830. Therefore, Kondou Isami was first adopted as a Shimazaki
> > >before he took the name Kondou sometime after 1858.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > So, wait.....if Kondou Isami had adopted an heir, this heir would
> > have to be adopted first as a Miyagawa, then as a Shimazaki, then as
> > a Kondou?? How much time had to pass between adoptions? Didn't all
> > this adopting get confusing?
> >
> >
> >
> > > Katsujirou could have adopted Rintarou Kanamasa before Souji's
> > >birth (but that's not the point here.) Rintarou Mototsune served as
> > >the head of the Okita family for a short time (possibly less than a
> > >year) before Rintarou Kanamasa became the head of the family.
> > > Rintarou Kanemasa was only going to remain as the head of the
> > >family until Souji got married. Had Souji lived longer, Rintarou
> > >Kanamasa's son Yoshijirou would probably have become Souji's heir
> > >and would likely have married Souji's eldest daughter.) I suppose
> > > that it would've been acceptable if Souji's son married Rintarou
> > >Kanamasa's daughter instead. However, considering that Souji's son
> > >would've been quite a few years younger than Rintarou Kanamasa's
> > >youngest daughter, I don't think this would've been the case.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > If Rintaro Kanamasa was only "holding" the heir position for Souji
> > until he got married, why wouldn't Souji's son (if he had had one) be
> > Souji's heir? What would Rintaro's son have to do with anything
> > now? Because Rintaro was holding that position, did that make Souji
> > obligated to him? Couldn't Souji have done whatever he wanted since
> > he would be head of the family?
> >
> >
> >
> > >Souji can start "Bunke", a branch family of Okita.
> > >Souji received Bakushin status in 1967 so his Okita line could be
> > >higher than Rintaro's Okita line.
> >
> >
> > If Souji had started a branch family, is that considered a separate
> > family altogether, or does that put Rintaro and his family in an
> > inferior position within Souji's family?
> >
> >
> > --Wanda
> >
>

>
>Actually, Isami's nephew Miyagawa Yugorou became his heir. (In
>1876, Yugorou married Isami's daughter, became the fifth master of
>the Tennen Rishin-ryu, and changed his name to Kondou Yuugorou.)
>

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven" wrote:
>
> Actually, Isami's nephew Miyagawa Yugorou became his heir. (In
1876, Yugorou married
> Isami's daughter, became the fifth master of the Tennen Rishin-ryu,
and changed his
> name to Kondou Yuugorou.)
>
> I suppose that Souji's son could be Souji's heir. Yoshijirou could
also be the head of the
> family after Souji and before Souji's son. My guess is relevantly
based on the Okita family
> history through four generations.
>
> Ten years after Rintarou Kanemasa's death, Yoshijirou died in 1895,
at age 43 (by East
> Asian age reckoning.) His grave is next to Souji's, by the way.
Yoshijirou's heir/eldest son
> Juji (sp?) died in 1910, at age 23 (by East Asian age reckoning.)
After Juji's death, his
> younger brother became the head of the Okita family.
>
> >Souji had started a branch family, is that considered a separate
> >family altogether, or does that put Rintaro and his family in an
> >inferior position within Souji's family?
> It's considered a branch family that doesn't put Rintaro and his
family in an
> inferior position within Souji's family (I think...)
>
> ~Seven
>
> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "zhusanna" wrote:
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Kondo Shuusuke was born Shimazaki Sekigoro(sp?) and he took the
> > >name Kondou when he became the 3rd master of the Tennen Rishin-
ryu
> > >in 1830. Therefore, Kondou Isami was first adopted as a
Shimazaki
> > >before he took the name Kondou sometime after 1858.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > So, wait.....if Kondou Isami had adopted an heir, this heir would
> > have to be adopted first as a Miyagawa, then as a Shimazaki, then
as
> > a Kondou?? How much time had to pass between adoptions? Didn't
all
> > this adopting get confusing?
> >
> >
> >
> > > Katsujirou could have adopted Rintarou Kanamasa before Souji's
> > >birth (but that's not the point here.) Rintarou Mototsune served
as
> > >the head of the Okita family for a short time (possibly less
than a
> > >year) before Rintarou Kanamasa became the head of the family.
> > > Rintarou Kanemasa was only going to remain as the head of the
> > >family until Souji got married. Had Souji lived longer,
Rintarou
> > >Kanamasa's son Yoshijirou would probably have become Souji's
heir
> > >and would likely have married Souji's eldest daughter.) I
suppose
> > > that it would've been acceptable if Souji's son married
Rintarou
> > >Kanamasa's daughter instead. However, considering that Souji's
son
> > >would've been quite a few years younger than Rintarou Kanamasa's
> > >youngest daughter, I don't think this would've been the case.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > If Rintaro Kanamasa was only "holding" the heir position for
Souji
> > until he got married, why wouldn't Souji's son (if he had had
one) be
> > Souji's heir? What would Rintaro's son have to do with anything
> > now? Because Rintaro was holding that position, did that make
Souji
> > obligated to him? Couldn't Souji have done whatever he wanted
since
> > he would be head of the family?
> >
> >
> >
> > >Souji can start "Bunke", a branch family of Okita.
> > >Souji received Bakushin status in 1967 so his Okita line could
be
> > >higher than Rintaro's Okita line.
> >
> >
> > If Souji had started a branch family, is that considered a
separate
> > family altogether, or does that put Rintaro and his family in an
> > inferior position within Souji's family?
> >
> >
> > --Wanda
> >
>

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "zhusanna" wrote:
>
>
>
> >
> >Actually, Isami's nephew Miyagawa Yugorou became his heir. (In
> >1876, Yugorou married Isami's daughter, became the fifth master of
> >the Tennen Rishin-ryu, and changed his name to Kondou Yuugorou.)
> >
>
> Thanks for all the info - as you can tell, I'm really interested in
> all the adopting that was going on. I've been asking all my
> questions using Kondou and Okita as examples. Yes, Yugorou became
> Isami's heir, but I guess what I really want to know is - *what if*
> Isami had adopted an heir. Would that person have to go through
> three adoptions (Miyagawa, Shimazaki, Kondou) to finally become
> Kondou? And why? (Since Isami had to become a Shimazaki before a
> Kondou.)
>
> If anyone knows of a book or someplace online where there is some
> explanation of adoptions during this time, feel free to direct me
> before I potentially drive everyone crazy with questions. :)
>
>
>
> --Wanda
> (Thanking everyone for their patience.)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven" wrote:
> >
> > Actually, Isami's nephew Miyagawa Yugorou became his heir. (In
> 1876, Yugorou married
> > Isami's daughter, became the fifth master of the Tennen Rishin-ryu,
> and changed his
> > name to Kondou Yuugorou.)
> >
> > I suppose that Souji's son could be Souji's heir. Yoshijirou could
> also be the head of the
> > family after Souji and before Souji's son. My guess is relevantly
> based on the Okita family
> > history through four generations.
> >
> > Ten years after Rintarou Kanemasa's death, Yoshijirou died in 1895,
> at age 43 (by East
> > Asian age reckoning.) His grave is next to Souji's, by the way.
> Yoshijirou's heir/eldest son
> > Juji (sp?) died in 1910, at age 23 (by East Asian age reckoning.)
> After Juji's death, his
> > younger brother became the head of the Okita family.
> >
> > >Souji had started a branch family, is that considered a separate
> > >family altogether, or does that put Rintaro and his family in an
> > >inferior position within Souji's family?
> > It's considered a branch family that doesn't put Rintaro and his
> family in an
> > inferior position within Souji's family (I think...)
> >
> > ~Seven
> >
> > --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "zhusanna" wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Kondo Shuusuke was born Shimazaki Sekigoro(sp?) and he took the
> > > >name Kondou when he became the 3rd master of the Tennen Rishin-
> ryu
> > > >in 1830. Therefore, Kondou Isami was first adopted as a
> Shimazaki
> > > >before he took the name Kondou sometime after 1858.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > So, wait.....if Kondou Isami had adopted an heir, this heir would
> > > have to be adopted first as a Miyagawa, then as a Shimazaki, then
> as
> > > a Kondou?? How much time had to pass between adoptions? Didn't
> all
> > > this adopting get confusing?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Katsujirou could have adopted Rintarou Kanamasa before Souji's
> > > >birth (but that's not the point here.) Rintarou Mototsune served
> as
> > > >the head of the Okita family for a short time (possibly less
> than a
> > > >year) before Rintarou Kanamasa became the head of the family.
> > > > Rintarou Kanemasa was only going to remain as the head of the
> > > >family until Souji got married. Had Souji lived longer,
> Rintarou
> > > >Kanamasa's son Yoshijirou would probably have become Souji's
> heir
> > > >and would likely have married Souji's eldest daughter.) I
> suppose
> > > > that it would've been acceptable if Souji's son married
> Rintarou
> > > >Kanamasa's daughter instead. However, considering that Souji's
> son
> > > >would've been quite a few years younger than Rintarou Kanamasa's
> > > >youngest daughter, I don't think this would've been the case.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > If Rintaro Kanamasa was only "holding" the heir position for
> Souji
> > > until he got married, why wouldn't Souji's son (if he had had
> one) be
> > > Souji's heir? What would Rintaro's son have to do with anything
> > > now? Because Rintaro was holding that position, did that make
> Souji
> > > obligated to him? Couldn't Souji have done whatever he wanted
> since
> > > he would be head of the family?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >Souji can start "Bunke", a branch family of Okita.
> > > >Souji received Bakushin status in 1967 so his Okita line could
> be
> > > >higher than Rintaro's Okita line.
> > >
> > >
> > > If Souji had started a branch family, is that considered a
> separate
> > > family altogether, or does that put Rintaro and his family in an
> > > inferior position within Souji's family?
> > >
> > >
> > > --Wanda
> > >
> >
>

>
> I've uploaded 2 articles for you.
>
> "Adoption and Samurai Mobility in Tokugawa Japan"
> Ray A. Moore
> "The Journal of Asian Studies" Vol. 29, No. 3 (May, 1970), pp. 617-

> http://www.savefile.com/files/5756309
>
> "Sons and Lovers: Adoption in Japan"
> Taimie L. Bryant
> "The American Journal of Comparative Law" Vol. 38, No. 2 (Spring,

> http://www.savefile.com/files/1519636
>
>
> ~Seven
>