The Two Rintaro's

Mori, p.10, line 1-2
"one was Inoue Rintaro Gentsune(sp?), whom bought his samurai status (from the Okita
family) after Okita Katsujiro's death on (lunar calendar) October 20, 1845..."

Mori, p.10, line 3-4
"Inoue Sozo's younger brother, Rintaro Fusamasa (Rintaro Gentsune's nephew) became an
adopted son/son-in-law (of the Okita family) to be the head of the Okita family..."

Mori, p.10, line 12-13
"Based on the family record, it is supposed that Rintaro Fusamasa's father-in-law, aka
Soji's (step-)father, Rintaro Gentsune, died in 1852. His wife, Soji's mother, died on (lunar
calendar) Auguest 8, 1862..."

Mori, p.12 line 6
"During the Shieikan Period... Soji called Rintaro (Fusamasa) 'big brother, big brother'..."

Mori, p,13 line 3
"Okita Soji's biological father was Katsujiro, as recorded previously, who had died early
and left (him)..."




From what I could gather, a) Okita Soji's biological father was indeed Katsujiro; b) it is a
fact that Rintaro Fusamasa was Katsujiro's adopted son; c) there were in fact two Okita
Rintaro's.

I've been wondering whether Rintaro Gentsune had also adopted Rintaro Fusamasa after
Katsujiro because, a) Okita Soji is listed in the death records at the family temple as being
the "2nd son of Okita Rintaro"; b) Soji called Rintaro "big brother" in adulthood;
c) It's believed that Rintaro Fusamasa was Rintaro Gentsune's son-in-law.

Please don't take the above guess as a fact. There's indeed no mention of Rintaro Genji's
adoption of Rintaro Fusamasa as Shimazu Masayoshi has mentioned.

~Seven

PS. In regard of the first Rintaro's formal given name/middle name, I'm really not sure
whether it's "Gentsune." It couldn't be "Genji" as Shimazu Masayoshi has pointed out.




Okita Soji Feature by Mori, p.10-p.11
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SHQ/spnew/view/8b5a?i=7

Okita Soji Feature by Mori, p.12-p.13
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SHQ/spnew/view/8b5a?i=8

Talk:Okita Rintaro
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Okita_Rintaro#The_Two_Rintaro.27s

Nlf7:

Thank you for posting those pages, and for the insights into this data
which you shared. However, I wanted to comment on your note on the
Okita Rintaro page at Wikipedia.

>"However, with a family clan name "Fujiwara", this "Fujiwara no
>Mototsune" would have shared an identical pronunciation with Fujiwara
>no Mototsune (836-891). Wouldn't a 19th century Japanese man avoid a
>name like that? If this Inoue Rintaro was born with the formal given
>name/middle name "Motosune," wouldn't he have also changed it when he
>changed his name to Okita Rintaro?"

If he received the formal name "Mototsune", it would probably either
be in honor of that ancestor, or a coincidence. After all, the two
names are written with different characters, though they're pronounced
the same-- so there wouldn't be a pressing reason to avoid use of the
name.

Also, on a purely linguistic basis, the name still would be read
"Mototsune". To pronounce it "Gentsune" would be, at best, irregular,
as that makes it half "on-yomi" (Sino-Japanese reading) and half
"kun-yomi" (Japanese reading). I'm not ruling out the possibility of
this being an exception, as reading Japanese names-- particularly
premodern ones-- is a tricky business; however, I'm just saying that
it's not necessarily probable.

Furthermore, with regards to your information on Rintaro Fusamasa:
Serizawa Kamo's webpage (Serizawa Kamo being another member of this
ML)-- http://victorian.fortunecity.com/stanford/130/bio.html#,
indicates that at one point, Okita used the formal name "Fusanaga". To
have a formal name that had a first character "Fusa" would suggest a
closeness with someone who had the same character in their name--
which you have brought to our attention as being Rintaro *Fusa*masa,
as illustrated in the quote from Mori, p. 12, with young Souji calling
him "Nii-san" (elder brother).

Once again, thank you for your interaction, and for your insight.

-M.

Okita Soji's "Fusanaga" is actually "Kaneyoshi." I've confirmed that recently. Book page are
available upon request. Meanwhile, heres the Japanese Okita article at Wikepedia.
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/????

Anyways, Thanks for the message, "M". I'll use "Mototsune" from now on until I find any
evidence agains it. As you probably are aware of, figuring out one's Japanese formal given
name/middle middle is harder than figuring his family name, given name, or family
clan name (even for well-educated Japanese.)

~Seven

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Shimazu Masayoshi" wrote:
>
> Nlf7:
>
> Thank you for posting those pages, and for the insights into this data
> which you shared. However, I wanted to comment on your note on the
> Okita Rintaro page at Wikipedia.
>
> >"However, with a family clan name "Fujiwara", this "Fujiwara no
> >Mototsune" would have shared an identical pronunciation with Fujiwara
> >no Mototsune (836-891). Wouldn't a 19th century Japanese man avoid a
> >name like that? If this Inoue Rintaro was born with the formal given
> >name/middle name "Motosune," wouldn't he have also changed it when he
> >changed his name to Okita Rintaro?"
>
> If he received the formal name "Mototsune", it would probably either
> be in honor of that ancestor, or a coincidence. After all, the two
> names are written with different characters, though they're pronounced
> the same-- so there wouldn't be a pressing reason to avoid use of the
> name.
>
> Also, on a purely linguistic basis, the name still would be read
> "Mototsune". To pronounce it "Gentsune" would be, at best, irregular,
> as that makes it half "on-yomi" (Sino-Japanese reading) and half
> "kun-yomi" (Japanese reading). I'm not ruling out the possibility of
> this being an exception, as reading Japanese names-- particularly
> premodern ones-- is a tricky business; however, I'm just saying that
> it's not necessarily probable.
>
> Furthermore, with regards to your information on Rintaro Fusamasa:
> Serizawa Kamo's webpage (Serizawa Kamo being another member of this
> ML)-- http://victorian.fortunecity.com/stanford/130/bio.html#,
> indicates that at one point, Okita used the formal name "Fusanaga". To
> have a formal name that had a first character "Fusa" would suggest a
> closeness with someone who had the same character in their name--
> which you have brought to our attention as being Rintaro *Fusa*masa,
> as illustrated in the quote from Mori, p. 12, with young Souji calling
> him "Nii-san" (elder brother).
>
> Once again, thank you for your interaction, and for your insight.
>
> -M.
>

Nlf7:

Your point regarding the complexity of name reading is amply
illustrated by the kanji used to spell "Kaneyoshi". Just by looking at
the kanji, I can tell that it could be read any of a number of ways:
"Kaneyoshi", "Fusayoshi", "Fusanaga", "Nobuyoshi", and so on-- the
confusing nature of which gave rise to Souji's formal name being read
by some as "Fusanaga". Much like how the characters used to spell the
last shogun Yoshinobu's name can be read "Yoshihisa", "Yoshinobu", or
"Keiki"-- which, as I've found in the United States government's
diplomatic records of that period, confused foreigners to no end.

However, despite the fact that that name should be read "Kaneyoshi",
what I had said earlier regarding Rintaro Fusamasa still holds true:
even though the reading is different, the kanji itself-- read "Fusa"
in Rintaro's case, or "Kane" in Souji's case-- is the same. Which is
something in support of what you've been saying (as quoted in Mori's
work) regarding Souji's closeness to Rintaro Fusamasa. Souji may or
may not have received that kanji from/in honor of Rintaro Fusamasa;
however, usually in a family, to have two people with the same
character in their names is not coincidence. Case in point-- (despite
the fact that in this case, the reading of the character is
consistent) much of the lineage of the Matsudaira lords of Aizu had
the character "Kata" in their names (Katasada, Katanobu, Katamori, and
so on).

As always, my thanks for your efforts.

-M.

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Shimazu Masayoshi" wrote:

>Your point regarding the complexity of name reading is amply illustrated by the kanji
>used to spell "Kaneyoshi". Just by looking at the kanji, I can tell that it could be read any
>of a number of ways:"Kaneyoshi", "Fusayoshi", "Fusanaga", "Nobuyoshi", and so on-- the
>confusing nature of which gave rise to Souji's formal name being read by some as
>"Fusanaga".

Yes, the complexity of name reading is amply illustrated by the kanji used to spell
"Kaneyoshi". I'd always spelt Okita Soji's formal name/middle name as "Kaneyoshi/
Fusanaga" till recently (like most other formal given names/middle names, it could be read
more than one way, as you've mentioned.) Anyways, it's definately "Kaneyoshi," not
"Fusanaga." On a few occasions, his name was written with Yoshijiro's "yoshi" (not
by himself, though.)

>However, despite the fact that that name should be read "Kaneyoshi", what I had said
>earlier regarding Rintaro Fusamasa still holds true:

I agree with you 100%. Please don't take this the wrong way, but is it "Fusamasa" for sure?
I haven't been able to confirm that... Maybe it could not be confirmed???


~Seven


PS.
I've just thought of something saved in my Okita folder.

Rintaro's family register (from 1882 or around 1882)
http://blog.drecom.jp/hinojyukuhonjin_kentoukai/monthly/200506/


(Okita Rintaro is listed as being the the oldest son of the Okita family.
Okita Mistu is listed as being the the oldest daughter of Kondo Shusuke .)
-----------------------------------------------------------
There hasn't been a solid explanation in regard of the fact that Okita Soji is listed in the
death records at the family temple as being he "2nd son of Okita Rintaro." What we could
tell is that both Okita Rintaro's were "retainers" and Rintaro Fusamasa was only going to
remain as the head of the family until Okita Soji got married.

Nlf7:

> I agree with you 100%. Please don't take this the wrong way, but is
>it "Fusamasa" for sure?
> I haven't been able to confirm that... Maybe it could not be
>confirmed???

Some of the ways I've found to read that name are "Fusamasa",
"Kanemasa", "Nobumasa", or "Nobutada". However, given what you have
said regarding Souji's formal name being read "Kaneyoshi", it may make
better logical sense for this man's name to be read "Kanemasa".

Thank you for the additional information, as well.

-M.

Thanks a lot! I'll use "Kanemasa" for the time being then. :)

~Seven

PS
Sorry, I really should check the translation by online language tools more carefully...
In regard of Rintaro's family register, Okita Rintaro is listed as being the the ELDESTson of
the Okita family and Okita Mistu is listed as being the the ELDEST daughter of Kondo
Shusuke.

> Some of the ways I've found to read that name are "Fusamasa",
> "Kanemasa", "Nobumasa", or "Nobutada". However, given what you have
> said regarding Souji's formal name being read "Kaneyoshi", it may make
> better logical sense for this man's name to be read "Kanemasa".
>
> Thank you for the additional information, as well.
>
> -M.
>

In regard of Rintaro's family register:

Okita Rintaro is listed as being the the eldest son of the Okita family. Okita Mistu is listed
as being the the eldest daughter of Kondo Shusuke
after 1886, which doesn't match this family register (from 1882 or so.)

My apologies. Sometimes when I copy text from a pdf file to a message, part of the text
doesn't come up in the post.

~Seven

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven" wrote:
>
> Thanks a lot! I'll use "Kanemasa" for the time being then. :)
>
> ~Seven
>
> PS
> Sorry, I really should check the translation by online language tools more carefully...
> In regard of Rintaro's family register, Okita Rintaro is listed as being the the ELDESTson
of
> the Okita family and Okita Mistu is listed as being the the ELDEST daughter of Kondo
> Shusuke.
>
>
> > Some of the ways I've found to read that name are "Fusamasa",
> > "Kanemasa", "Nobumasa", or "Nobutada". However, given what you have
> > said regarding Souji's formal name being read "Kaneyoshi", it may make
> > better logical sense for this man's name to be read "Kanemasa".
> >
> > Thank you for the additional information, as well.
> >
> > -M.
> >
>