Aizu Articles on Wikipedia linked to Shinsengumihq.com

secretarytocapt3

>however we do link to certain Wikipedia articles (with >warnings) such
>as the one on Teruhime and Aizu which we did >contribute facts

NLF7
I'm aware of that. The Wikipedia articles do link to your website though
--------------------------------------
secretarytocapt3
that is because some members of the Shinsengumihq.com DID author the
article on Aizu...the other Shinsengumi stuff (I) didn't touch--nor
did I care to touch, however your differing opinion on Kondou's death
due to Tani's catalyzing the situation goes against, Tani Tateki's own
memoirs (his own words)---thus I had to correct your information nlf7.
Other than that I have no interest in the other articles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aizu

I linked information from http://www.shinsengumihq.com/TakamineHideo.htm
and I should added http://www.shinsengumihq.com/AizuBeyond1868.htm
as well

Do you have a question regarding the Aizu page?
Our work is cited in detail and can be scrutinized.
As I said before, we will defer to someone who knows Japanese---but
you said yourself that you aren't done reading those texts.

We have texts for you to read if you wish---they are considered
difficult by even educated Japanese.
I scanned them and can email them to you.

as for dreamfeather.net she did not give me her new webaddress or
email thus I cannot pass along your comments (which are by the way
came across as harsh).

What I'm saying is, unless you are fluent in Japanese then please be
nice to our contributors---dreamfeather did try her best.

--------------------------------------
however I need to ask you about this comment NLF7

" I believe that the volunteers from
SHQ and the editors from Wikipedia might have made the very same
errors of judgment. (For example,
they might have been misled by the same website sources or have
mistaken materialsfrom fictional work as historical facts in a similar
fashion...etc)"
--------------------------------------

I'm asking that you be careful with some of your comments nlf7

WHICH members of the SHQ?

As I mentioned we are aware of the countless problems on
wikipedia---if we post something such as the Aizu information that is
only very general information we use to help lead people to our
website and especially to certain pages which are well researched.

Please don't ask me to repeat myself.

I don't know all over 100 members here, but the ones I know---I assure
you know the difference between *historical fiction and *fiction and
*historical texts.

Some of us work with texts right out of that era...the problem is they
are in the process of being studied...and written in CHINESE. Would
you like to read them? Many texts are handwritten and cannot be easily
deciphered. I am totally hapy to send you the entire Kyoto Shugoshoku
Shimatsu...book which details Kyoto's security apparatus if you want
just email me at secretarytocapt3(a)hotmail.com I assure you this text
has the detail you want. We can sure use more people who are fluent
in Japanese (or just studying Japanese).

we have members in elementary school all the way to those pursuing
advanced degrees so when you say members of the SHQ in a critical way
you are in fact addressing a RANGE of members who are just trying to learn

if you can teach us please do so in a appropriate way

Please don't take things out of the context. I was only talking about member(s) of the SHQ
that claimed Okita was born in Shirakawa and that he was close to Hijikata. Yes, I could be
a bit harsh in regard of Okita's place of birth. As you could see from the few history based
websites I've sent you, it wouldn't be hard for one to see that he was born in Edo. I did feel
a little offended when you called this an issue of book "A" saying something and book "B"
saying something (because no book would say that he was born in Shirakawa and the
other party obviously made a mistake.)

Imagine this, if I confused Aizu with Ainu and claimed Matsudaira Katamori to be Ezo's
daimyo and if a third party in your position called it an issue of book "A" saying something
and book "B" saying something, wouldn't you feel a little offended? If a third party
considered such a situation to be discrepencies between two authors and used both your
text and my text, wouldn't you be eager to sort things out?

~Seven

> --------------------------------------
> however I need to ask you about this comment NLF7
>
> " I believe that the volunteers from
> SHQ and the editors from Wikipedia might have made the very same
> errors of judgment. (For example,
> they might have been misled by the same website sources or have
> mistaken materialsfrom fictional work as historical facts in a similar
> fashion...etc)"
> --------------------------------------
>
> I'm asking that you be careful with some of your comments nlf7
>
> WHICH members of the SHQ?
>
> As I mentioned we are aware of the countless problems on
> wikipedia---if we post something such as the Aizu information that is
> only very general information we use to help lead people to our
> website and especially to certain pages which are well researched.
>
> Please don't ask me to repeat myself.
>
> I don't know all over 100 members here, but the ones I know---I assure
> you know the difference between *historical fiction and *fiction and
> *historical texts.
>
> Some of us work with texts right out of that era...the problem is they
> are in the process of being studied...and written in CHINESE. Would
> you like to read them? Many texts are handwritten and cannot be easily
> deciphered. I am totally hapy to send you the entire Kyoto Shugoshoku
> Shimatsu...book which details Kyoto's security apparatus if you want
> just email me at secretarytocapt3(a)hotmail.com I assure you this text
> has the detail you want. We can sure use more people who are fluent
> in Japanese (or just studying Japanese).
>
> we have members in elementary school all the way to those pursuing
> advanced degrees so when you say members of the SHQ in a critical way
> you are in fact addressing a RANGE of members who are just trying to learn
>
> if you can teach us please do so in a appropriate way
>

Regarding the wikipedia I only wish to say that I hope some of you who
have read so much about everything and know the historical facts keep
updating the wikipedia. I started the articles of the Shinsengumi in
the German Wikipedia from scratch and have used mostly the english
wiki as well as the site shinsengumihq. Without these sites it would
not have been possible, but i'm aware of the fact that there are a lot
of missing facts and maybe even wrong facts in my articles, which I
wish to correct .

So..thanx for your effort.

Please don't bite my head off. I've corrected an error in the Aizu article at Wikipedia. The
Aizu forces were eventually besieged at Tsuruga Castle on October 8 (lunar calendar
Auguest 23), 1868.

~Seven

Just wanted to make something clear... Since I couldn't identify user "6 192.204.106.2" so
I've left a message here just in case.

~Seven

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven" wrote:
>
> Please don't bite my head off. I've corrected an error in the Aizu article at Wikipedia.
The
> Aizu forces were eventually besieged at Tsuruga Castle on October 8 (lunar calendar
> Auguest 23), 1868.
>
> ~Seven
>

nlf7:

I'd like to take this time to once again commend you on your desire
for accuracy. However, I'd like to bring a detail to your attention.

You corrected the entry, saying that Aizu was besieged in September
1868, to saying that it was besieged in October 1868. I presume you
meant the beginning of the siege. In this case, you are correct.

"On the morning of the 23rd day of the 8th month, the new government's
army quickly broke through Takizawa Pass and arrived at the castle
town." (page 176 of "Aizu-han", by Noguchi Shin'ichi)

23rd day of the 8th (lunar) month. That being the case, if you now use
http://www.astro.sendai-c.ed.jp/cgi-bin/mooncal/conv, and put in the
date of "1868/8/23", and select the lower option to convert from lunar
to solar calendar, and then click on the button on the lower right of
the green box, that translates to, in our modern calendar: October 8,
1868. You are correct in saying October for the *start* of the siege;
obviously, the article says "they were eventually besieged at Tsuruga
Castle, the seat of the Aizu domain, in October 1868." Besieged, not
defeated; so again, that's absolutely correct.

However, those who read this article should be mindful that the siege
did not end overnight; according to the timeline that appears on page
15 of the text "Sendai Boshin Senshi" (written by Fujiwara Ainosuke in
1911), as well as the timeline that appears on page 237 of the
timeline compiled by Itou Tetsuya in "Shinsengumi Saitou Hajime no
Subete", the date for the surrender of Aizu is the 23rd day of the 9th
lunar month, 1868. Another source, page 182 of text "Aizu-han", gives
the date one day earlier-- the 22nd day of the 9th lunar month, 1868,
as being the date when, as the text says (I'm quoting directly here):
"Shin-seifugun to no kyouryoku ga nari, tsui ni kugatsu nijuuninichi,
roujou ikkagetsu nishite koufuku to kimatta." Translated, that reads
"After negotiation with the new government's army, the surrender was
decided for the 22nd day of the 9th month, after the siege that lasted
a month."

22nd or 23rd, it doesn't matter much. Two other sources say 9/23, and
as the siege started on the 23rd of the 8th lunar month, and Noguchi
says "after a siege that lasted a month", I will go with the 23rd.

That being the case, if you again use
http://www.astro.sendai-c.ed.jp/cgi-bin/mooncal/conv, and put in the
date of "1868/9/23" and use the same method to convert it, that
translates to, in our modern calendar: November 6, 1868.

You were right to correct the start date of the siege from September
to October, however, the siege did take a month in the lunar calendar,
and just under a month by the Western calendar, to end. I don't say
this to lecture anybody, I merely respectfully wish to bring correct
information to people's attention-- just as you wish to bring correct
information to people.

Again, please accept my thanks for your efforts.

-M.

I agree with you 100%! (I've never implied that the Aizu forces were defeated on Oct
8 1868. According to my books, they were defeated on Nov 6 1868.

>

I'm happy that you have taken an interest in Aizu
again, ~which~ books? There are books in English and Japanese on
Aizu.

Similarly, you listed 20 Okita books as sources (all of which were
added to the Okita page
http://www.shinsengumihq.com/OkitaSoujiro.htm)

all you have to do is "....fact..." (author last name, page #)

this is very easy for you to do since you are reading Japanese

this was to help people who can afford to buy only 1 book (not all
20 of the books you have)

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven" wrote:
>
> I agree with you 100%! (I've never implied that the Aizu forces
were defeated on Oct
> 8 1868. According to my books, they were defeated on Nov 6 1868.
>
>
> >
>

I listed 20 Shinsengumi books and 5 of them were on Okita. (In other words, I listed all the
Shinsengumi books on my book shelf, except the only English one - "Shinsengumi: The
Shogun's Last Samurai Corps" by Hillsborough.)

I've always been interested in Aizu but since there's been an increasing interest in Okita's
life, I've started buying books on him last year. Anyways, in regard of the date of the Aizu
Clan's surrender, I've read it was Nov 6 1868 from "Shinsengumi Encyclopedia," p.122.
(http://www.amazon.co.jp/exec/obidos/ASIN/4122035414/qid=1150232731/sr=1-1/
ref=sr_1_2_1/503-8662209-2817527)

I'll give you the other sources later. (When I started reading about the Shinsengumi, I had
no idea that I'd be so interested in the subject for such a long time so I didn't list the
author or the page # in my notes. I just wanted to know the exact dates of the events
mentioned in the RK manga vol. 21.)

~Seven

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "secretary" wrote:
>
> I'm happy that you have taken an interest in Aizu
> again, ~which~ books? There are books in English and Japanese on
> Aizu.
>
> Similarly, you listed 20 Okita books as sources (all of which were
> added to the Okita page
> http://www.shinsengumihq.com/OkitaSoujiro.htm)
>
> all you have to do is "....fact..." (author last name, page #)
>
> this is very easy for you to do since you are reading Japanese
>
> this was to help people who can afford to buy only 1 book (not all
> 20 of the books you have)
>
>
> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven" wrote:
> >
> > I agree with you 100%! (I've never implied that the Aizu forces
> were defeated on Oct
> > 8 1868. According to my books, they were defeated on Nov 6 1868.
> >
> >
> > >
> >
>

Hello,
first of all I have to apologize for my hostility in my previous
posts--I ask that you too reflect on the tone of your posts because
they seem condescending.

I hope that you will forgive me for coming across as aggressive and
unappreciative and from this point forth I hope we can start with a
clean slate. My replies to you should be regarded as between
secretarytocapt3 to nlf7/seven and not the entire SHQ to nlf7/seven.

as mentioned before, there are people on this list who I think are
somewhat knowledgeable and have tried to learn by reading, reading and
reading...we use some really great English language texts

there are also those who have studied Japanese for several years (many
have stated that it takes nearly 10 years to read a modern day
newspaper without opening a dictionary even once), and even to this
day some names on the shinsengumihq.com page were romanized
incorrectly because even a well educated Japanese may choose to
interpret the name differently (this is the nature of the language)

thus do not make assumptions about the collective intelligence of this
group---although we are fandom I think we can surprise you (^___^)

this list is mostly Shinsengumi there is a sister list called
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/edojidai/
and
http://www.livejournal.com/community/edo_meiji
which can handle Aizu-studies

this livejournal blog also can handle Aizu questions
http://yamaguchiyukiko.livejournal.com/

however, it is my personal opinion that the Shinsengumi history in
connection to Aizu is very very fascinating too (but few have found it
because it has not been portrayed in popular culture other than the
film Byakkotai http://www.shinsengumihq.com/byakkotai.htm) all we need
is Nobuhiro Watsuki to do the "Aizu Arc" of the Shinsengumi and throw
in some of our naginata wielding hot females and he has a hit on his hands

Aizu was just like any other domain during the Bakumatsu but I have to
say here that it has been ignored and devalued because of its military
and political defeat---there is simply very few books/articles written
on it. Any analysis on the domain is shallow and one should not be
surprised that no one has bothered to study the Shinsengumi in a
professional manner. If one can "find" Aizu in Bakumatsu texts---you
*will* find the Shinsengumi! I stated in the past that there is a
scholar who is working on a book on Aizu and I have humbly suggested
(ok beg) that he also write in the Shinsengumi's patronage by Aizu in
Kyoto...

this list is more focused on just the Shinsengumi so I hope to keep
this brief:

For nlf7/Seven and others who would like to learn about Aizu:

see http://www.shinsengumihq.com/bibliography.htm
click on "Aizu" for the list

Wright, Diana E. "Female Combatants and Japan's Meiji Restoration: the
case of Aizu" War in History 2001 v. 8 (4) pages 396-417
http://1happyturtle.com/Hosting/FemaleCombatantsAizu.pdf
(look for Takagi Tokio and other famous samurai women)
see their tribute vid!
http://1happyturtle.com/Hosting/TheLastSamuraiWomen.wmv

by the way, Prof. Wright is very cool
--------------------------------------------------
Shimoda, Hiraku, PhD Dissertation. Between homeland and nation: Aizu
in early modern and modern Japan. HARVARD UNIVERSITY, 2005, 409 pages

(I can only share this file on request via email to me
secretarytocapt3(a)hotmail.com---it is a very large file and as you
can see it is a dissertation---thus if it is distributed for
non-academic purposes, plagiarized, not properly cited it would be
very dangerous---besides I had to buy this work from
http://www.proquest.com)
--------------------------------------------------
Kyoto Shugoshoku Shimatsu... by Yamakawa Hiroshi (Fujita family friend)
http://1happyturtle.com/Hosting/KYOTOSHUGOSHOKUSHIMATSU/vol1/vol.1.1-25.zip
I have scanned the entire book---if you feel that you can read it (or
read it when your Japanese has improved) then email me and I will give
you the rest

Aizu Boshin Senso...by Yamakawa Kenjiro (brother of Hiroshi and also
another friend of the Fujita family)
http://1happyturtle.com/Hosting/aizuboshinsenshi/0-50.zip
same thing...I have the rest if you want it drop me a message

Aizu Byakkotai
http://1happyturtle.com/Hosting/AizuByakkotai/ByakkotaiBK.zip

[I also have Bolitho, Harold. "Aizu, 1853-1868" Proceedings. of the
British Association for
Japanese Studies Vol. 2, 1977] but give me a chance to find the file

I hope you continued with your investigation into Aizu---I enjoy
studying the post 1868 Aizu network (Aizu folks who contributed to
Meiji era society, even though they faced discrimination)

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven" wrote:
>
> I listed 20 Shinsengumi books and 5 of them were on Okita. (In other
words, I listed all the
> Shinsengumi books on my book shelf, except the only English one -
"Shinsengumi: The
> Shogun's Last Samurai Corps" by Hillsborough.)
>
> I've always been interested in Aizu but since there's been an
increasing interest in Okita's
> life, I've started buying books on him last year. Anyways, in regard
of the date of the Aizu
> Clan's surrender, I've read it was Nov 6 1868 from "Shinsengumi
Encyclopedia," p.122.
>
(http://www.amazon.co.jp/exec/obidos/ASIN/4122035414/qid=1150232731/sr=1-1/
> ref=sr_1_2_1/503-8662209-2817527)
>
> I'll give you the other sources later. (When I started reading about
the Shinsengumi, I had
> no idea that I'd be so interested in the subject for such a long
time so I didn't list the
> author or the page # in my notes. I just wanted to know the exact
dates of the events
> mentioned in the RK manga vol. 21.)
>
> ~Seven
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "secretary" wrote:
> >
> > I'm happy that you have taken an interest in Aizu
> > again, ~which~ books? There are books in English and Japanese on
> > Aizu.
> >
> > Similarly, you listed 20 Okita books as sources (all of which were
> > added to the Okita page
> > http://www.shinsengumihq.com/OkitaSoujiro.htm)
> >
> > all you have to do is "....fact..." (author last name, page #)
> >
> > this is very easy for you to do since you are reading Japanese
> >
> > this was to help people who can afford to buy only 1 book (not all
> > 20 of the books you have)
> >
> >
> > --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven" wrote:
> > >
> > > I agree with you 100%! (I've never implied that the Aizu forces
> > were defeated on Oct
> > > 8 1868. According to my books, they were defeated on Nov 6 1868.
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>