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Okita Team?

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#2814 [2006-06-13 20:10:52]

Okita Team?

by secretarytocapt3

ok so we are all in agreement that there is some conflicting info on
Okita but there are issues regarding citation

as of today this page is now a mess ::ROFL!!::
http://www.shinsengumihq.com/OkitaSoujiro.htm

I can't keep up with you intense researchers (I work on the timeline,
Saitou Hajime post 1868 because there is more info in English on the
Meiji Era, Takagi/Fujita Tokio and some Aizu folks) so I have a ~weak~
grasp of Okita (but I wrote that article on TB, that counts for
something right?)...now this is an idea...

why don't all the Okita specialists form a team and revise Okita's
info page (^___^) get in a chatroom, or work on someone's blog and do
some revising etc...but really you don't have to be a specialist you
can be a fan who joins the group and asks questions, this will help
the main writers understand the "FAQ" of the hundreds of thousands of
Okita fans out there

again it is totally important to cite details this would be very
helpful to visitors of the site

also you may right some mini articles on Okita as well and I can
create a sub-menu

for example I split the Saitou Hajime page into sections (by the way
I'm in the process of converting my word document essay into html to
enhance the info on the page) you can take a peak here:
http://www.shinsengumihq.com/saitouhajime.htm

and when you are all done, just email the text, your names (real or
user names) to shinsengumihq(a)yahoo.com

a similar approach was adopted with the gigantic still in progress
timeline where several people over a couple of months emailed
updates/entries

so promise me that you will all think about it! It is really
impossible for one person to study ALL the Shinsengumi members or all
facets of the history/culture

specialize. divide and conquer!

[Next #2815]

#2815 [2006-06-13 21:29:45]

Re: [SHQ] Okita Team?

by shenlong71328

This would be something nice to do. To get to chat with others, and for a while I've been thinking about reviving the chatroom created in mIRC from a couple of months ago. If anyone still remembers, the chatroom is still on the same server (caelestia.net) with the same channel name (#shinsengumihq). I myself am only available on Wednesdays & Thursdays, but I would love to chat with all of you in order to get more information (as was my original intention for the chatroom).

Also, I was also intrested in getting the information about when and how the Shensengumi began to divide themselves into units.

-Bunneh
^_____________^


secretary <secretarytocapt3@...> wrote: ok so we are all in agreement that there is some conflicting info on
Okita but there are issues regarding citation

as of today this page is now a mess ::ROFL!!::
http://www.shinsengumihq.com/OkitaSoujiro.htm

I can't keep up with you intense researchers (I work on the timeline,
Saitou Hajime post 1868 because there is more info in English on the
Meiji Era, Takagi/Fujita Tokio and some Aizu folks) so I have a ~weak~
grasp of Okita (but I wrote that article on TB, that counts for
something right?)...now this is an idea...

why don't all the Okita specialists form a team and revise Okita's
info page (^___^) get in a chatroom, or work on someone's blog and do
some revising etc...but really you don't have to be a specialist you
can be a fan who joins the group and asks questions, this will help
the main writers understand the "FAQ" of the hundreds of thousands of
Okita fans out there

again it is totally important to cite details this would be very
helpful to visitors of the site

also you may right some mini articles on Okita as well and I can
create a sub-menu

for example I split the Saitou Hajime page into sections (by the way
I'm in the process of converting my word document essay into html to
enhance the info on the page) you can take a peak here:
http://www.shinsengumihq.com/saitouhajime.htm

and when you are all done, just email the text, your names (real or
user names) to shinsengumihq(a)yahoo.com

a similar approach was adopted with the gigantic still in progress
timeline where several people over a couple of months emailed
updates/entries

so promise me that you will all think about it! It is really
impossible for one person to study ALL the Shinsengumi members or all
facets of the history/culture

specialize. divide and conquer!





__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #2814] [Next #2816]

#2816 [2006-06-13 22:26:45]

Re: Okita Team?

by nlf7

Again, Okita was born in EDO! (I've got the address!)
There is some conflicting info on Okita, but not that much!

~Seven

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "secretary" wrote:
>
> ok so we are all in agreement that there is some conflicting info on
> Okita but there are issues regarding citation
>
> as of today this page is now a mess ::ROFL!!::
> http://www.shinsengumihq.com/OkitaSoujiro.htm
>
> I can't keep up with you intense researchers (I work on the timeline,
> Saitou Hajime post 1868 because there is more info in English on the
> Meiji Era, Takagi/Fujita Tokio and some Aizu folks) so I have a ~weak~
> grasp of Okita (but I wrote that article on TB, that counts for
> something right?)...now this is an idea...
>
> why don't all the Okita specialists form a team and revise Okita's
> info page (^___^) get in a chatroom, or work on someone's blog and do
> some revising etc...but really you don't have to be a specialist you
> can be a fan who joins the group and asks questions, this will help
> the main writers understand the "FAQ" of the hundreds of thousands of
> Okita fans out there
>
> again it is totally important to cite details this would be very
> helpful to visitors of the site
>
> also you may right some mini articles on Okita as well and I can
> create a sub-menu
>
> for example I split the Saitou Hajime page into sections (by the way
> I'm in the process of converting my word document essay into html to
> enhance the info on the page) you can take a peak here:
> http://www.shinsengumihq.com/saitouhajime.htm
>
> and when you are all done, just email the text, your names (real or
> user names) to shinsengumihq(a)yahoo.com
>
> a similar approach was adopted with the gigantic still in progress
> timeline where several people over a couple of months emailed
> updates/entries
>
> so promise me that you will all think about it! It is really
> impossible for one person to study ALL the Shinsengumi members or all
> facets of the history/culture
>
> specialize. divide and conquer!
>

[Previous #2815] [Next #2817]

#2817 [2006-06-13 22:29:33]

Re: Okita Team?

by nlf7

Again.
Tenpou 13 = 1842 (not 1844)
Tenpou 15 = 1844


--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "secretary" wrote:
>
> ok so we are all in agreement that there is some conflicting info on
> Okita but there are issues regarding citation
>
> as of today this page is now a mess ::ROFL!!::
> http://www.shinsengumihq.com/OkitaSoujiro.htm
>
> I can't keep up with you intense researchers (I work on the timeline,
> Saitou Hajime post 1868 because there is more info in English on the
> Meiji Era, Takagi/Fujita Tokio and some Aizu folks) so I have a ~weak~
> grasp of Okita (but I wrote that article on TB, that counts for
> something right?)...now this is an idea...
>
> why don't all the Okita specialists form a team and revise Okita's
> info page (^___^) get in a chatroom, or work on someone's blog and do
> some revising etc...but really you don't have to be a specialist you
> can be a fan who joins the group and asks questions, this will help
> the main writers understand the "FAQ" of the hundreds of thousands of
> Okita fans out there
>
> again it is totally important to cite details this would be very
> helpful to visitors of the site
>
> also you may right some mini articles on Okita as well and I can
> create a sub-menu
>
> for example I split the Saitou Hajime page into sections (by the way
> I'm in the process of converting my word document essay into html to
> enhance the info on the page) you can take a peak here:
> http://www.shinsengumihq.com/saitouhajime.htm
>
> and when you are all done, just email the text, your names (real or
> user names) to shinsengumihq(a)yahoo.com
>
> a similar approach was adopted with the gigantic still in progress
> timeline where several people over a couple of months emailed
> updates/entries
>
> so promise me that you will all think about it! It is really
> impossible for one person to study ALL the Shinsengumi members or all
> facets of the history/culture
>
> specialize. divide and conquer!
>

[Previous #2816] [Next #2818]

#2818 [2006-06-13 22:34:30]

Re: Okita Team?

by nlf7

One more thing, the date of Okita's death is July 19 (lunar calander May 30), 1868. There's
NO doubt about it. (If anyone's unsure of it, please use a calendar converter.)

~Seven

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "secretary" wrote:
>
> ok so we are all in agreement that there is some conflicting info on
> Okita but there are issues regarding citation
>
> as of today this page is now a mess ::ROFL!!::
> http://www.shinsengumihq.com/OkitaSoujiro.htm
>
> I can't keep up with you intense researchers (I work on the timeline,
> Saitou Hajime post 1868 because there is more info in English on the
> Meiji Era, Takagi/Fujita Tokio and some Aizu folks) so I have a ~weak~
> grasp of Okita (but I wrote that article on TB, that counts for
> something right?)...now this is an idea...
>
> why don't all the Okita specialists form a team and revise Okita's
> info page (^___^) get in a chatroom, or work on someone's blog and do
> some revising etc...but really you don't have to be a specialist you
> can be a fan who joins the group and asks questions, this will help
> the main writers understand the "FAQ" of the hundreds of thousands of
> Okita fans out there
>
> again it is totally important to cite details this would be very
> helpful to visitors of the site
>
> also you may right some mini articles on Okita as well and I can
> create a sub-menu
>
> for example I split the Saitou Hajime page into sections (by the way
> I'm in the process of converting my word document essay into html to
> enhance the info on the page) you can take a peak here:
> http://www.shinsengumihq.com/saitouhajime.htm
>
> and when you are all done, just email the text, your names (real or
> user names) to shinsengumihq(a)yahoo.com
>
> a similar approach was adopted with the gigantic still in progress
> timeline where several people over a couple of months emailed
> updates/entries
>
> so promise me that you will all think about it! It is really
> impossible for one person to study ALL the Shinsengumi members or all
> facets of the history/culture
>
> specialize. divide and conquer!
>

[Previous #2817] [Next #2819]

#2819 [2006-06-13 22:40:57]

Re: Okita Team?

by nlf7

Please bear with me.
Okita was NOT close to Hijikata at all.

It's true that many believe Okita and Hijikata were like brothers based on Shiba
Ryoutarou's FICTION. However, in history, Yamanami Keisuke was the vice-commander
Okita shared a brotherly relationship with. It is debatable whether Okita and Hijikata were
even on good terms with each other.

If anyone's unsure of it, accurate information could be found in HISTORICAL references.


--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "secretary" wrote:
>
> ok so we are all in agreement that there is some conflicting info on
> Okita but there are issues regarding citation
>
> as of today this page is now a mess ::ROFL!!::
> http://www.shinsengumihq.com/OkitaSoujiro.htm
>
> I can't keep up with you intense researchers (I work on the timeline,
> Saitou Hajime post 1868 because there is more info in English on the
> Meiji Era, Takagi/Fujita Tokio and some Aizu folks) so I have a ~weak~
> grasp of Okita (but I wrote that article on TB, that counts for
> something right?)...now this is an idea...
>
> why don't all the Okita specialists form a team and revise Okita's
> info page (^___^) get in a chatroom, or work on someone's blog and do
> some revising etc...but really you don't have to be a specialist you
> can be a fan who joins the group and asks questions, this will help
> the main writers understand the "FAQ" of the hundreds of thousands of
> Okita fans out there
>
> again it is totally important to cite details this would be very
> helpful to visitors of the site
>
> also you may right some mini articles on Okita as well and I can
> create a sub-menu
>
> for example I split the Saitou Hajime page into sections (by the way
> I'm in the process of converting my word document essay into html to
> enhance the info on the page) you can take a peak here:
> http://www.shinsengumihq.com/saitouhajime.htm
>
> and when you are all done, just email the text, your names (real or
> user names) to shinsengumihq(a)yahoo.com
>
> a similar approach was adopted with the gigantic still in progress
> timeline where several people over a couple of months emailed
> updates/entries
>
> so promise me that you will all think about it! It is really
> impossible for one person to study ALL the Shinsengumi members or all
> facets of the history/culture
>
> specialize. divide and conquer!
>

[Previous #2818] [Next #2820]

#2820 [2006-06-13 23:00:32]

Re: Okita Team?

by nlf7

I've realized now that there are still quite a few mistakes...

#1-#4 (please refer to my previous messages)

#5 Okita did NOT become the captain of the first unit until 1865.

#6 Keiou FOUR, during the Boshin War and after the Battle of Toba-Fushimi, Okita went
into a hospital in Edo. He THEN moved to a guesthouse with Okita Rintarou, Okita Mitsu,
and their children. When the shogunate forces (including the Shinsengumi and the
Shinchougumi) retreated to the Tohoku region, Okita remained in Edo alone.

#7 Keiou 4 did NOT become Meiji 1 until Oct 23 1868 (lunar calender Sep 8), 3 months
AFTER Okita's death. His date of death should NEVER be written as "Meiji 1, May 30 (Lunar
calendar)." It's either Jul 19, 1868 or Keiou 4, May 30 (lunar calendar).


~Seven

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "secretary" wrote:
>
> ok so we are all in agreement that there is some conflicting info on
> Okita but there are issues regarding citation
>
> as of today this page is now a mess ::ROFL!!::
> http://www.shinsengumihq.com/OkitaSoujiro.htm
>
> I can't keep up with you intense researchers (I work on the timeline,
> Saitou Hajime post 1868 because there is more info in English on the
> Meiji Era, Takagi/Fujita Tokio and some Aizu folks) so I have a ~weak~
> grasp of Okita (but I wrote that article on TB, that counts for
> something right?)...now this is an idea...
>
> why don't all the Okita specialists form a team and revise Okita's
> info page (^___^) get in a chatroom, or work on someone's blog and do
> some revising etc...but really you don't have to be a specialist you
> can be a fan who joins the group and asks questions, this will help
> the main writers understand the "FAQ" of the hundreds of thousands of
> Okita fans out there
>
> again it is totally important to cite details this would be very
> helpful to visitors of the site
>
> also you may right some mini articles on Okita as well and I can
> create a sub-menu
>
> for example I split the Saitou Hajime page into sections (by the way
> I'm in the process of converting my word document essay into html to
> enhance the info on the page) you can take a peak here:
> http://www.shinsengumihq.com/saitouhajime.htm
>
> and when you are all done, just email the text, your names (real or
> user names) to shinsengumihq(a)yahoo.com
>
> a similar approach was adopted with the gigantic still in progress
> timeline where several people over a couple of months emailed
> updates/entries
>
> so promise me that you will all think about it! It is really
> impossible for one person to study ALL the Shinsengumi members or all
> facets of the history/culture
>
> specialize. divide and conquer!
>

[Previous #2819] [Next #2821]

#2821 [2006-06-14 00:44:42]

Re: Okita Team?

by nlf7

The Shensengumi began to divide themselves into 8 (militery) units in Dec 1864. In May
1865, they began to divide themselves into 10 (police) units.


--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, Bunny ^_^ wrote:
>
> This would be something nice to do. To get to chat with others, and for a while I've
been thinking about reviving the chatroom created in mIRC from a couple of months ago.
If anyone still remembers, the chatroom is still on the same server (caelestia.net) with the
same channel name (#shinsengumihq). I myself am only available on Wednesdays &
Thursdays, but I would love to chat with all of you in order to get more information (as
was my original intention for the chatroom).
>
> Also, I was also intrested in getting the information about when and how the
Shensengumi began to divide themselves into units.
>
> -Bunneh
> ^_____________^
>
>
> secretary wrote: ok so we are all in
agreement that there is some conflicting info on
> Okita but there are issues regarding citation
>
> as of today this page is now a mess ::ROFL!!::
> http://www.shinsengumihq.com/OkitaSoujiro.htm
>
> I can't keep up with you intense researchers (I work on the timeline,
> Saitou Hajime post 1868 because there is more info in English on the
> Meiji Era, Takagi/Fujita Tokio and some Aizu folks) so I have a ~weak~
> grasp of Okita (but I wrote that article on TB, that counts for
> something right?)...now this is an idea...
>
> why don't all the Okita specialists form a team and revise Okita's
> info page (^___^) get in a chatroom, or work on someone's blog and do
> some revising etc...but really you don't have to be a specialist you
> can be a fan who joins the group and asks questions, this will help
> the main writers understand the "FAQ" of the hundreds of thousands of
> Okita fans out there
>
> again it is totally important to cite details this would be very
> helpful to visitors of the site
>
> also you may right some mini articles on Okita as well and I can
> create a sub-menu
>
> for example I split the Saitou Hajime page into sections (by the way
> I'm in the process of converting my word document essay into html to
> enhance the info on the page) you can take a peak here:
> http://www.shinsengumihq.com/saitouhajime.htm
>
> and when you are all done, just email the text, your names (real or
> user names) to shinsengumihq(a)yahoo.com
>
> a similar approach was adopted with the gigantic still in progress
> timeline where several people over a couple of months emailed
> updates/entries
>
> so promise me that you will all think about it! It is really
> impossible for one person to study ALL the Shinsengumi members or all
> facets of the history/culture
>
> specialize. divide and conquer!
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[Previous #2820] [Next #2822]

#2822 [2006-06-14 06:17:10]

Re: Okita Team?

by secretarytocapt3

Nlf7,
We love your enthusiasm and knowledge---ofcourse we understand where
you are coming from when you say "see historical references" and so
forth and I got your list of books. Many of us here who have written
articles for the website, also use historical references extensively,
please see this article as an example:

The Afflicted Swordsman: Tuberculosis and Okita Soujiro
http://www.shinsengumihq.com/TBandOkita.htm
see how if a quote or detail is taken from a book...the exact
book/author and page number are noted OR the author is mentioned in
the text.

and about Okita's birthday
have you seen his updated page?
http://www.shinsengumihq.com/OkitaSoujiro.htm

I did note some of your major contributions (^___^) as I said in my
previous post I want to revise the page ASAP but I will need to have a
final format to work with so I would need your help because I am not
knowledgeable on Okita.

as for the conversion of dates we have a link to a good converter on
the timeline page:
http://www.shinsengumihq.com/ShinsengumiBakumatsuTimeline.htm

but imagine this:
(visitor to Okita page) "wow lots of cool info from nlf7---but which
book did that detail come from?"

we cannot tell people to just "believe us" just because we can post a
website on the internet---we want to give people the tools to learn on
their own

there are hundreds of Shinsengumi books----I made a list of Okita
books here: http://www.shinsengumihq.com/bibliography2.htm
I will add your list ASAP

For example next to your information on Okita's alternate birth year
we would add (author last name and page number from the book).

I don't want you to misunderstand (early on 2 years ago we made minor
errors so we quickly changed our strategy, so now we want to be
careful to prevent SHQ.com from becoming a source of innaccurate
information)--- with certain details especially coming from English
texts, we know the information is *solid however we still need to cite
them so people can find the book and read details themselves

*if we did not cite our sources, we would be plaigiarizing---those
authors are very well respected academics I dont' think they would be
happy to see their words posted without proper credit

-WE- believe you 100%!!! But we want any visitor (from all over the
world) to also understand where the information came from so they can
*double *check or they can buy the right books

Nlf7, I hope you can head up the Okita Team if you have the time and
get in touch with other mailing list members and put your fabulous
minds together. If we split up the work we can accomplish many things
together .TEAM.WORK.

so nlf7, Bunneh, Kaneyoshi are anyone, if you guys are going to meet
somewhere, sometime or use a blog/livejournal just post here to
organize your efforts

Again, Shinsengumihq.com doesn't "own" the Shinsengumi or history, we
just study it---any contribution to the site such as fanart, fanfic
and articles remain the property of the individual we just make it
available to the public. So we would like to learn from you nlf7


--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "nlf7" wrote:
>
> I've realized now that there are still quite a few mistakes...
>
> #1-#4 (please refer to my previous messages)
>
> #5 Okita did NOT become the captain of the first unit until 1865.
>
> #6 Keiou FOUR, during the Boshin War and after the Battle of
Toba-Fushimi, Okita went
> into a hospital in Edo. He THEN moved to a guesthouse with Okita
Rintarou, Okita Mitsu,
> and their children. When the shogunate forces (including the
Shinsengumi and the
> Shinchougumi) retreated to the Tohoku region, Okita remained in Edo
alone.
>
> #7 Keiou 4 did NOT become Meiji 1 until Oct 23 1868 (lunar calender
Sep 8), 3 months
> AFTER Okita's death. His date of death should NEVER be written as
"Meiji 1, May 30 (Lunar
> calendar)." It's either Jul 19, 1868 or Keiou 4, May 30 (lunar
calendar).
>
>
> ~Seven
>
> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "secretary" wrote:
> >
> > ok so we are all in agreement that there is some conflicting info on
> > Okita but there are issues regarding citation
> >
> > as of today this page is now a mess ::ROFL!!::
> > http://www.shinsengumihq.com/OkitaSoujiro.htm
> >
> > I can't keep up with you intense researchers (I work on the timeline,
> > Saitou Hajime post 1868 because there is more info in English on the
> > Meiji Era, Takagi/Fujita Tokio and some Aizu folks) so I have a ~weak~
> > grasp of Okita (but I wrote that article on TB, that counts for
> > something right?)...now this is an idea...
> >
> > why don't all the Okita specialists form a team and revise Okita's
> > info page (^___^) get in a chatroom, or work on someone's blog and do
> > some revising etc...but really you don't have to be a specialist you
> > can be a fan who joins the group and asks questions, this will help
> > the main writers understand the "FAQ" of the hundreds of thousands of
> > Okita fans out there
> >
> > again it is totally important to cite details this would be very
> > helpful to visitors of the site
> >
> > also you may right some mini articles on Okita as well and I can
> > create a sub-menu
> >
> > for example I split the Saitou Hajime page into sections (by the way
> > I'm in the process of converting my word document essay into html to
> > enhance the info on the page) you can take a peak here:
> > http://www.shinsengumihq.com/saitouhajime.htm
> >
> > and when you are all done, just email the text, your names (real or
> > user names) to shinsengumihq(a)yahoo.com
> >
> > a similar approach was adopted with the gigantic still in progress
> > timeline where several people over a couple of months emailed
> > updates/entries
> >
> > so promise me that you will all think about it! It is really
> > impossible for one person to study ALL the Shinsengumi members or all
> > facets of the history/culture
> >
> > specialize. divide and conquer!
> >
>

[Previous #2821] [Next #2824]

#2824 [2006-06-14 10:29:24]

Re: Okita Team?

by nlf7

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "secretary" wrote:
> We love your enthusiasm and knowledge---ofcourse we understand where
> you are coming from when you say "see historical references" and so
> forth and I got your list of books. Many of us here who have written
> articles for the website, also use historical references extensively,
> please see this article as an example:
>
> The Afflicted Swordsman: Tuberculosis and Okita Soujiro
> http://www.shinsengumihq.com/TBandOkita.htm
> see how if a quote or detail is taken from a book...the exact
> book/author and page number are noted OR the author is mentioned in
> the text.

Please don't misunderstand me, I was only commenting on the Okita article (http://
www.shinsengumihq.com/OkitaSoujiro.htm) I understand that you also use historical
references, but please double check whether your own information is correct when there's
conflicting info. (I believe some mistakes to be human errors or/and typos.)

Also, make sure your "historical references" are actually in the history section and are not
categorized as (historical) fiction. For example, many regard the trilogy by Shimozawa Kan
as "historical references" but in fact, his Shinsengumi books are categorized as (historical)
fiction.

> and about Okita's birthday
> have you seen his updated page?
> http://www.shinsengumihq.com/OkitaSoujiro.htm

I was NOT talking about his birthday earlier today.

quote from www.shinsengumihq.com/OkitaSoujiro.htm
"Born in Tenpou 13 (1844) (some say Tenpou15)"

I was saying that Tenpou 13 = 1842 (not 1844.)

> but imagine this:
> (visitor to Okita page) "wow lots of cool info from nlf7---but which
> book did that detail come from?"
>
> we cannot tell people to just "believe us" just because we can post a
> website on the internet---we want to give people the tools to learn on
> their own

I've already given you a list of books. However, I haven't used quotes in regard of the
Shinsengumi.

Again, almost all the books/chapters in regard of Okita contain this (rather basic)
information. For example,

Mori, Makiko. Okita Soji Feature (Tokyo: Shin Jinbutsu Oraisha, 1999)
Oji, Kazuko. Walking with Okita Soji (Tokyo: Shin Chosha, 2003)

> I hope you can head up the Okita Team if you have the time and
> get in touch with other mailing list members and put your fabulous
> minds together.

I'd rather "chat" on the Okita Soji discussion page at Wikipedia. I understand that some
fans of the Shinsengumi/Okita don't have access to SHQ nor want to join it. (To tell you
the truth, it took me a while before I decided to join this group.)


In addition, I suggest that we merge the Okita Soji article at Wikipedia and the Okita article
at SHQ.

I've been keeping an eye on all the Shinsengumi articles at Wikipedia since March. It's true
that anyone could edit or delete information at Wikipedia and I had a problem with it when
I started editting the articles (as all could see on my talk page.)

Nevertheless, the Wikipedia's linked to library networks so improving articles at at
Wikipedia is certainly more than worthwhile. (At least, that's what I tell myself when I feel
like giving up.)

As anyone could see from the history of every article on the Shinsengumi, I've done many
corrections and whenever there was any conflicting info, my version would always end up
on top (since my edits could be backed up with research and historical references.)

That being said, Ito and Todo don't have their own articles yet and the new Inoue and
Takeda articles need a lot of help. (I've done most research on the members of the
Shieikan so I could only write more about Inoue when I get the chance.)

~Seven

[Previous #2822] [Next #2826]

#2826 [2006-06-14 11:44:30]

Re: Okita Team?

by secretarytocapt3

NLF7
> Please don't misunderstand me, I was only commenting on the Okita
article (http://
> www.shinsengumihq.com/OkitaSoujiro.htm) I understand that you also
use historical references, but please double check whether your own
information is correct when there's
> conflicting info. (I believe some mistakes to be human errors
or/and typos.)

---------------------------------------------
secretarytocapt3
Nlf7, believe me, we do double check (when possible), as I tried to
explain already sometimes book "A" says something and book "B" says
something

***if there is a conflict or discrepencies between two authors then
we put {BOTH} texts, and quotes side by side
---------------------------------------------
NLF7
> Also, make sure your "historical references" are actually in the
history section and are not
> categorized as (historical) fiction. For example, many regard the
trilogy by Shimozawa Kan
> as "historical references" but in fact, his Shinsengumi books are
categorized as (historical)
> fiction.
http://www.shinsengumihq.com/bibliography2.htm

--------------------------------------
secretarytocapt3

Are you confusing us with another site?

http://www.shinsengumihq.com/bibliography.htm
contains historical texts and we have never listed Shimozawa Kan's
work there

HOWEVER
http://www.shinsengumihq.com/bibliography2.htm
does contain fiction or non-fiction Japanese texts clearly marked in
the right hand column

thanks for your suggestions
--------------------------------------
NLF7
> > and about Okita's birthday
> > have you seen his updated page?
> > http://www.shinsengumihq.com/OkitaSoujiro.htm
>
> I was NOT talking about his birthday earlier today.
--------------------------------------
secretarytocapt3
I used his birthday as an example that I'm trying to catch up with
you

as I mentioned before I am not an expert on Okita

THUS, when you are done revising and combining your wikipedia Okita
information with what we have now..just email and I will get it
uploaded ASAP

secretarytocapt3 = monkey who manages the site (^___^)

I don't own the site, I just volunteer when possible, I am only
responsible for my contributions not the entire site actually
--------------------------------------
NLF7
> I've already given you a list of books. However, I haven't used
quotes in regard of the
> Shinsengumi.
--------------------------------------
secretarytocap3

My point is this: I can give you hundreds of books on the Bakumatsu
right now and say "those are my sources" however you have to
*specifY* sources. You cannot say "I got my fact from one of those
10 books". I'm not arguing with you or anything but that is just
how things work (not at the SHQ) but now many websites are adopting
basic standards to strengthen their fandom...as I mentioned before
if you are in school--you should be aware that even basica 5
paragraph essay requires you to do this
--------------------------------------
NLF7
> fans of the Shinsengumi/Okita don't have access to SHQ nor want to
join it. (To tell you
> the truth, it took me a while before I decided to join this group.)

--------------------------------------
secretarytocapt3

I don't know what you are referring to...this is a public
group...there are many Shinsengumi fandoms, some based on certain
universes such as PMK, RK and so forth...we are very general
--------------------------------------
NLF7
> In addition, I suggest that we merge the Okita Soji article at
Wikipedia and the Okita article
> at SHQ.
--------------------------------------
secretarytocapt3

I agree! You can do this, like I said just tell me when you are
done please. Everything remains your work and you will be the
author.
--------------------------------------
NLF7
> Nevertheless, the Wikipedia's linked to library networks so
improving articles at at
> Wikipedia is certainly more than worthwhile. (At least, that's
what I tell myself when I feel
> like giving up.)
--------------------------------------
secretarytocapt3

Why would you think of giving up? Currently Wikipedia is not
acceptable in terms of citation. The reason is that the internet is
always in "flux". The reason why books dominate academia is because
the text is "frozen". Although Wikipedia has a time stamp on
commentary, it is still hard to determine authorship. Books however
have clear cut editors and authorship--again for the purpose of
citation. I can post something to shinsengumihq.com right now, and
change it in 5 minutes--this causes confusion unlike a book which
remains "static"---or undergoes a revision and becomes a new edition.
--------------------------------------
NLF7
As anyone could see from the history of every article on the
Shinsengumi, I've done many
> corrections and whenever there was any conflicting info, my
version would always end up
> on top (since my edits could be backed up with research and
historical references.)
--------------------------------------
secretarytocapt3
Currently there are no resident historians (you can get a degree in
history and specialize but there is no licensing ^_^) at Wikipedia
to oversee your work---your corrections are at the top because they
are the most recent. Your edits are backed by books---but again
your citation method is still too general.

Promise you aren't mad at secretarytocapt3? I am giving
suggestions...I am a student of history and I study the development
of social institutions---I am familiar with various methods of
studying history---I don't want to make the study of the shinsengumi
boring at all---I write silly fanfic, do fanart and videos too it's
just that we must put our best foot forward when it comes to history

[Previous #2824] [Next #2827]

#2827 [2006-06-14 15:23:21]

Re: Okita Team?

by sevenofwiki

>secretarytocapt3
>believe me, we do double check (when possible), as I tried to
>explain already sometimes book "A" says something and book "B" says
>something
>***if there is a conflict or discrepencies between two authors then
>we put {BOTH} texts, and quotes side by side

Please (kindly) ask the other party to back up claims such as that Okita was born in
Shirakawa and that he was close to Hijikata with historical references. I'm confident to say
that it would not be possible.

Okita was born in the Shirakawa Domain's Edo mansion and the other party might have
confused that with him being born in Shirakawa. While his place of death is an issue of
book "A" saying something and book "B" saying something, his place of birth is NOT. I
could upload some book samples for you (for example, p12 -13 from "Okita Soji Feature"
by Mori and p14-15 from "Walking with Okita Soji" by Oji), but could the other party do
the same???

Meanwhile, here's a list of helpful (Japanese) websites.
( I've always checked the references before including a website in my research and some
websites here are also included in your links.)

http://www.bakusin.com/okita.html
http://www.toshizo.com/name/okita.html
http://www1.odn.ne.jp/makoto/taisi/souji.htm
http://www.geocities.jp/str_homepage/rekishi/bakumatsu/shinsengumi/taishi/souji.html
http://www.fan.hi-ho.ne.jp/gary/okita00.htm

Please feel free to use language tools to translate the first few lines (if you haven't done so
already.)

Also, as I've mentioned, many believe that Okita was close to Hijikata based on Shiba's
fiction and until I made the corrections, the Shinsengumi artcicles at Wikipedia had Shiba
Ryoutarou's novels listed as non-fiction references.

There's no doubt that his books are historical novels.

"Moero Ken"
http://www.amazon.co.jp/exec/obidos/ASIN/410115208X/qid=1150316653/sr=1-23/
ref=sr_1_2_23/503-8662209-2817527

http://www.amazon.co.jp/exec/obidos/ASIN/4101152098/qid=1150316653/sr=1-24/
ref=sr_1_2_24/503-8662209-2817527

"Shinsengumi Keppuroku"
http://www.amazon.co.jp/exec/obidos/ASIN/4041290074/qid=1150316653/sr=1-25/
ref=sr_1_2_25/503-8662209-2817527


>Are you confusing us with another site?
>
>http://www.shinsengumihq.com/bibliography.htm
>contains historical texts and we have never listed Shimozawa Kan's
>work there

No, I was using Shimozawa Kan's work as an example. I apologize if I didn't make that
clear enough.


>THUS, when you are done revising and combining your wikipedia Okita
>information with what we have now..just email and I will get it
>uploaded ASAP

I understand, Thanks.


>My point is this: I can give you hundreds of books on the Bakumatsu
>right now and say "those are my sources" however you have to
>*specifY* sources. You cannot say "I got my fact from one of those
>10 books". I'm not arguing with you or anything but that is just
>how things work (not at the SHQ) but now many websites are adopting
>basic standards to strengthen their fandom...as I mentioned before
>if you are in school--you should be aware that even basica 5
>paragraph essay requires you to do this

Yes, I'm aware of that and I do use basic standards in my writing. Please try to understand,
I didn't start "writing" about the Shinsengumi by writing, but by making corrections or/and
re-editing. Nevertheless, I've nearly finished with all the corrections at Wikipedia, so
references will be included in my future edits/writing.

>secretarytocapt3
>I don't know what you are referring to...this is a public
>group...there are many Shinsengumi fandoms, some based on certain
>universes such as PMK, RK and so forth...we are very general

Yes, I agree.

I'm not sure why others don't want to join this group; I could only speak for myself. I
waited a while before I joined any group (or started editing the articles at wikipedia) so I
could have more time to read about the Shinsengumi. I could only spare so much time on
the Shinsengumi, after all.

>Why would you think of giving up? Currently Wikipedia is not
>acceptable in terms of citation. The reason is that the internet is
>always in "flux". The reason why books dominate academia is because
>the text is "frozen".

Why? I'd rather spend the time on reading the Shinsengumi manga I've bought and more
about the history of the Shinsengumi...

In addition, it gets rather tiring sometimes and I haven't had any time left to edit articles
unrelated to the Shinsengumi. :( :( :(

>---your corrections are at the top because they
>are the most recent. Your edits are backed by books---but again
>your citation method is still too general.

My edits are at the top because they are the most recent; they are the most recent because
I wouldn't allowed mistakes to be edited in. :P :P :P

Yes, I do see your point. As I've mentioned above, the citation method won't be so general
from now on.


~Seven

[Previous #2826] [Next #2828]

#2828 [2006-06-14 16:43:34]

Re: Okita Team?

by secretarytocapt3

1) I already emailed you about edits made to this page:
http://www.shinsengumihq.com/OkitaSoujiro.htm
I've been responsive to your suggestions

2) The authors of the page are at the TOP of the page
"special thanks to Jia-xin Wu of http://www.dreamfeather.net/
with additional contributions by Hirotada Tokugawa (Shimazu Masayoshi)"

I did not write the page---I thought that was clear already that I
just update pages

3) for the RECORD, Shinsengumihq.com did not singlehandedly go in and
write those wikipedia articles---in fact I have no idea who did!
so if you had to waste your time to edit those pages then I'm sorry
but we aren't responsible.

I'm confused when you constantly say that you had to do this and that
on wikipedia because our volunteers are responsible for what is on
the website ONLY

as I've stated before in earlier posts I only posted a discussion
question to your KOndou page and I did cite my information regarding
Tani Tateki---the detail in the Hillsborough book, and his Japanese
source. On the board you proceeded to SHOUT AND USE CAPS TO MAKE YOUR
POINT LIKE THIS. You must take up the matter with Mr. Hillsborough AND
the Japanese author of the book he used (not with me---I just read the
information). Please keep that in mind.

however we do link to certain Wikipedia articles (with warnings) such
as the one on Teruhime and Aizu which we did contribute facts

It is possible we have members who add information but individual
actions should not reflect on our entire group

for the record we are one of SEVERAL Shinsengumi sites out there...it
is possible you may be addressing the wrong group entirely...like I
said this is an open community with hundreds of members

I'm just being cranky...but if you want to talk then my AIM is
badgerturtle (again my area is post 1868 Fujita Family not Okita)

[Previous #2827] [Next #2830]

#2830 [2006-06-14 19:41:03]

Re: Okita Team?

by sevenofwiki

>1) I already emailed you about edits made to this page:
Yes. Thanks a lot! :)

>2) The authors of the page are at the TOP of the page
>"special thanks to Jia-xin Wu of http://>www.dreamfeather.net/

I've tried to link to that website countless times with no success. I'll try again now,

>I did not write the page---I thought that was clear >already that I just update pages

I know that. I was hoping your would forward my messages to the other author(s.)

>3) for the RECORD, Shinsengumihq.com did not >singlehandedly go in and
>write those wikipedia articles---

Sorry I didn't make it clear enough again. I was trying to explain how easily people, like the
editor(s) from Wikipedia, could have used Shiba Ryoutarou's novels as references.

>I'm confused when you constantly say that you had to >do this and that
>on wikipedia because our volunteers are responsible >for what is on
>the website ONLY

Let me try this again. Please bear with me. I believe that the volunteers from SHQ and the
editors from Wikipedia might have made the very same errors of judgment. (For example,
they might have been misled by the same website sources or have mistaken materials
from fictional work as historical facts in a similar fashion...etc)

Since I couldn't just make corrections on the SHQ website, I could only bring the issues up.
Since I couldn't contact the authors directly to sort things out, I could only leave my
messages with you.

>as I've stated before in earlier posts I only posted a discussion
>question to your KOndou page and I did cite my information regarding
>Tani Tateki---the detail in the Hillsborough book, and his Japanes source. On the
>board you proceeded to >SHOUT AND USE CAPS TO MAKE YOUR
>POINT LIKE THIS. You must take up the matter with Mr. Hillsborough AND
>the Japanese author of the book he used (not with me---I just read the
>information). Please keep that in mind.

Again, I apologize for not making things clear enough. I wasn't taking the matter with
you; I was acknowledging your message and letting you know that I'd also bought the
same book... I had used caps mainly to remind myself to look into it. (I'll delete my
message on the Kondo discussion page and I won't use caps again, I promise.)

>however we do link to certain Wikipedia articles (with >warnings) such
>as the one on Teruhime and Aizu which we did >contribute facts

I'm aware of that. The Wikipedia articles do link to your website though,

>It is possible we have members who add information >but individual actions should not
reflect on our entire >group

I agree with you 100%.

>for the record we are one of SEVERAL Shinsengumi >sites out there...it
>is possible you may be addressing the wrong group >entirely...like I
>said this is an open community with hundreds of >members

Like I said, I could only leave messages in hope that they would be forwarded to the right
people.

[Previous #2828] [Next #2845]

#2845 [2006-06-18 01:54:02]

The Okita Soji article on Wikipedia is ready to be uploaded to the SHQ website

by sevenofwiki

I've tried to compose this message with rich-text but it didn't work. For those that have
received my last message already, please note that the first sentence of "Trivia" should
have been "It is historical accurate that Okita loved children. Duing his time in Kyoto, he
was often seen playing with children and was a baby-sitter to Yagi's sons in Mibu." (or "It
is historical accurate that Okita loved children. Duing his time in Kyoto, he was often seen
playing with children and was a baby-sitter to Yagi's sons at the Mibu temple.) My
apologies. I use online language tools to translate some of the text and sometimes there
are errors like this.

The Okita Soji article on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okita_S?ji) is ready to be
uploaded to the SHQ website. However, the Okita Rintaro article (http://en.wikipedia.org/
wiki/Okita_Rintaro) is not ready yet.

The Wikipedia doesn't use the MLA-like "(author, page #)" format so I've only listed 2
major references. (Other Shinsengumi/Okita books, of course, contain a lot of the same
info. Though, I don't think it's necessary to list all of them on the article page at this
point.)

~Seven



PS. Here's the Okita article with "(author, page #.)"





Okita S?ji
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Okita S?ji (?? ??), (1842 or 1844 - July 19, 1868) was the captain of the first troop of
the Shinsengumi, a special police force in Kyoto during the late shogunate period. He was
a well-known genius swordsman, being one of the strongest out of the Shinsengumi,
along with Saito Hajime and Nagakura Shinpachi.

Contents
1 Background
2 Shinsengumi Period
3 Death
4 Trivia
5 References
6 Okita in Fiction

Background
He was born Okita Soujirou Fujiwara no Harumasa in 1842 or 1844 from a samurai family
in the Shirakawa- han's Edo mansion. (Oji p. 58 - p.59) His Great-grandfather was Okita
Kan'emon (? - 1819) and his Grandfather was Okita Sanshiro (? - 1833.) His father, Okita
Katsujiro, died in 1845; he had two older sisters, Okita Mitsu (1833-1907) and Okita Kin
(1836-1908.) In 1846, in order to marry the adopted son of the Okita family, Okita Rintaro
(1826-1885), his oldest sister Okita Mitsu became an adopted daughter of Kondo Shusuke
in name. Kondo Shusuke was the third master of the Tennen Rishin Ryu and Okita started
training at the Shieikan with him around the age of nine. By that time, Kondo Shusuke had
already adopted Shimazaki Katsuta (the later Kondo Isami), but Hijikata Toshizo had not
yet enrolled at the Tennen Rishin-ryu school. Okita proved to be a prodigy and attained
Menkyo Kaiden status (master of kenjutsu) at eighteen or so. (Mori, p.9 - p.11)

In 1861, Okita became the Head Coach (??) at the Shieikan. Even though he was often
commented to be honest, polite, and good-natured by those around him, he was also
known to be a strict and quick-tempered teacher to his students. (Mori, p.27 - p.28)

According to Yagi Tamesaburou (Yagi Gennoujou's son) and Satou Shun'sen (Satou
Higokorou's descendent), Okita was a tall, dark, and thin man with high cheekbones, a
wide month, and a "flatfish" face. (Mori, p.56) In addition, he was known as a man who
smiled and laughed well (not very talkative, however.)

Shinsengumi Period
Okita changed his name to Okita Souji Fujiwara no Kaneyoshi shortly before his departure
to Kyoto in 1863. He soon became a founding member of the Shinsengumi and a
Fukuchou Jokin (Vice-Commander's Assistant.) (Oji, p.111) Okita Rintarou, also a
practitioner of the Tennen Rishin-ryu, became a commander of the Shinchougumi (the
Shinsengumi's brother league in Edo.) (Mori, p.52)

Okita was the second youngest among the Shieikan members, with Todo Heisuke being
the youngest. He was one of the Shieikan members involved in the Serizawa Kamo (one of
the original commanders of the Shinsengumi) and the Uchiyama Hikojiro assassinations in
1863. (Oji, p.132)

Equally skilled with shinai, bokken/bokutou, and katana, his signature technique was
named the Mumyo-ken or Sandanzuki (which translates as "Three Piece Thrust"), a
technique that could attack one's neck, left shoulder, and right shoulder with one strike.
(the Mumyo-ken supposedly could hit all three points simultaneously, but this is most
likely an embellishment.) (Oji, 20) The Mumyo-ken was his own invention and it could
have been derived from an invention of Hijikata's (the Hirazuki.)

It was rumored that his tuberculosis was discovered when he coughed blood and fainted
during the Ikedaya Affair, but some sources say that he contracted the disease after that.
Both are reasonable, as tuberculosis can kill quickly (weeks), or very slowly (many years).
While many of the Shinsengumi fans believe that Yoshida Toshimaru was killed by Okita
during the Ikedaya Affair (based on Shiba Ryoutarou's fiction), it is in fact historically
inaccurate. (Mori, p.92 - 98)

Based on Shiba Ryoutarou's fiction, many also believe that Okita and Hijikata were like
brothers. In history, Yamanami Keisuke was the vice-commander Okita shared a brotherly
relationship with. Yamanami's seppuku (with Okita as his second) in 1865 was an
extremely painful incident in Okita's short life. (Mori, p.78) There is no record showing
that Hijikata and Okita were close; it is debatable whether Okita even got along with
Hijikata.

In 1865, Okita became the captain of the first unit of the Shinsengumi and also served as a
kenjutsu instructor ((Oji, p.175); later that year, he was appointed by Kondo Isami to be
the fifth master of the Tennen Rishin-ryu after him. (Mori, p.132)

Although highly unlikely, it was rumored that he wielded a famous katana called Kikuichi-
monji. However, he surely owned a set of Kaga Kiyomitsu (a katana and a wakizashi) and
his so-called "Kikuichimonji Norimune" was likely a Yamasiro Kunikiyo instead. (Oji, 96)

Death
During the Boshin War, after the Battle of Toba-Fushimi in January of Keiou 4, Okita went
into Matsumoto Ryoujun's hospital in Edo. (Oji, p.235) He then moved to a guesthouse
with Okita Rintarou, Okita Mitsu, and their children. When the shogunate forces (including
the Shinsengumi and the Shinchougumi) retreated to the Tohoku region, Okita remained in
Edo alone. (Mori, p,170 - p.171) He died on July 19 (lunar calendar May 30th), 1868. Later
that night, he was buried at his family temple in Edo (present Tokyo), under his birth name
(with Okita Souji listed in the death records.) Today, Okita's grave is not open to the
public. (Oji, p.252)

The information that Okita died when he was 25 is based on the theory that he was born
in 1844 and therefore was 25 by East Asian age reckoning when he died in 1868 (or on a
lesser-known theory that he was born in Summer, before July 19, 1842 and therefore was
25 by Western standards when he died in July 19, 1868.)

Trivia
It is historical accurate that Okita loved children. During his time in Kyoto, he was often
seen playing with children and was a baby-sitter to Yagi's sons in Mibu. (Oji, p.100)

He was not particularly fond of liquor but it is fictional that he loved sweets.

Okita was a bit of a clean freak. (Oji, p.130)

Aside from being treated by Matsumoto, Okita also took Kyorou Sanyaku (medicine for
enervation and coughing) for his tuberculosis (not to be confused with Ishida Sanyaku for
treating injures such as brusises and broken bones.)

There has not been any evidence of an Okita photograph.

References
? Mori, Makiko. Okita Soji Feature. Tokyo: Shin Jinbutsu Oraisha, 1999.
? Oji, Kazuko. Walking with Okita Soji. Tokyo: Shin Chosha, 2003.

Okita in Fiction
It is important not to confuse fictional work featuring Okita with historical data about him.

Okita is briefly mentioned and shown in the anime/manga series Rurouni Kenshin, which
takes place during and after the Meiji Revolution in Japan. A character later on in the
series, Seta S?jir?, was based on the Okita Soji from fiction Shinsengumi Keppuroku (and
therefore, darker than the real Okita.) Okita is also a main character in the anime/manga
Peacemaker Kurogane, which takes more liberties with history. In an episode of the anime
GS Mikami, ghost-hunter Mikami Reiko gets inside of a haunted movie about the
Bakumatsu and meets Okita, who is depicted as a crazy guy who thinks only of killing
people (obvious pun on his usual portrayal, which also is a foil to the show's rendition of
Hijikata.) Okita is also the male protagonist in the manga Kaze Hikaru, which is a fictional
story about the Shinsengumi during the late Tokugawa shogunate (where Okita trains a
young girl to be one of the Shinsengumi to avenge her father and older brother.) He is also
depicted in the 1999 film Taboo (Gohatto.) In the anime/manga series Shura no Toki,
Okita's (fictional) last battle before succumbing to his sickness is with a warrior from the
Mutsu, a clan that supposedly practiced unarmed combat. Their duel was a request from
Okita himself from years before.

His anime, manga, and TV depictions tend to be as a handsome young man (sometimes a
bish?nen). The Latin American dub of Rurouni Kenshin, in fact, mistook Okita for a
woman, and the Hijikata/Okita yaoi pairing is very popular among the fangirls of
Peacemaker Kurogane.

While only briefly appearing in Kido Shinsengumi: Moeyo Ken (in a flashback and as a
possible ghost), Okita's (obviously) fictional daughter Kaoru (by an equally-obviously
fictional unnamed wife) is one of the three main characters of the series.

His three-point strike (Mumyo-ken) and his tuberculosis are also very similar to the
character Ukyo Tachibana from the video game series Samurai Shodown.

[Previous #2830] [Next #2847]

#2847 [2006-06-18 08:52:04]

Re: The Okita Soji article on Wikipedia is ready to be uploaded to the SHQ website

by secretarytocapt3

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven" wrote:
I use online language tools to translate some of the text and
sometimes there are errors like this.

-------------------------------------
For people who would like to use online translators, we've listed
them here: http://www.shinsengumihq.com/links.htm

it is a good idea to locate information online with translators and
then seek someone who knows Japanese to double check the translation

I should know...fundoshi (underwear) translates as "lower headband"
(^_^)

-------------------------------------
--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven" wrote:
> The Wikipedia doesn't use the MLA-like "(author, page #)" format
so I've only listed 2
> major references. (Other Shinsengumi/Okita books, of course,
contain a lot of the same
> info. Though, I don't think it's necessary to list all of them on
the article page at this
> point.)
>
> ~Seven
-------------------------------------
You only have to list the references which you actually used for
your article---however we are listing all the Okita books you
recommended for visitors to see

***Wikipedia ~does use MLA and other citation formats (it's up to
whatever is convenient for you)

Please see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources

Wikipedia seems to suggest strict citation rules however they don't
enforce them
-------------------------------------

The OKita page will be updated ASAP however I am working all day--so
I'll get to it when possible


[some other news]

Michael (from http://www.ninjadojo.com) has notified us that:

Dougill, John. Kyoto : a cultural history. Oxford ; New York :
Oxford University Press, 2006 ; ISBN: 0195301374 0195301382 (4 pages
of Shinsengumi material and Ikedaya description)

Dougill's tone is neutral.

he also wanted to add:

Steele, M William. Katsu Kaishu and the collapse of the Tokugawa
Bakufu HARVARD UNIVERSITY, 1976, 480 pages (discusses post Kyoto
Shinsengumi!) currently this dissertation is not available for
purchase or download. Prof. Steele also mentions Sagara Souzou in
his work too (and the apropriate fangirl has been
notified) ::cough:: http://www.geocities.com/sekisinhokoku/
-------------------------------------
Hirotada Tokugawa translated a segment of the Kinmon Incident
(involving the Shinsengumi) from the film "Byakkotai"
(scroll to the bottom)
http://www.shinsengumihq.com/byakkotai.htm

[Previous #2845] [Next #2848]

#2848 [2006-06-18 14:26:08]

Re: The Okita Soji article on Wikipedia is ready to be uploaded to the SHQ website

by sevenofwiki

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "secretary" wrote:
>it is a good idea to locate information online with translators and then seek someone
>who knows Japanese to double check the translation

I agree. I seek help to double check the translation when I'm not sure about the
translation (such as Tani Tateki's statement after Imai Nobuo's confession to the murder of
Sakamoto.) I don't seek help for something like "in Mibu" though. The online language
tools simply couldn't tell the difference between "at the Mibu temple" and "in Mibu, (at a)
temple. "

>however we are listing all the Okita books you
>recommended for visitors to see

You only need to list the five books on Okita. I really don't think that you need to list all 20
for such a short article. Moreover, the other 15 Shinsengumi books would be more
appropriate on your Bibliography page.

>Wikipedia seems to suggest strict citation rules however they don't
>enforce them

Yes, Wikipedia uses the so-called "wikifying" format. I decided to keep the style used in a
few other articles on historical figures (like the Matthew Perry article), after I saw a flag on
the Nagasone Kotetsu article page.


~Seven

[Previous #2847] [Next #2849]

#2849 [2006-06-18 15:52:00]

Re: The Okita Soji article on Wikipedia is ready to be uploaded to the SHQ website

by secretarytocapt3

test run http://www.shinsengumihq.com/OkitaSoujiro.htm

again nlf7 can gather more Okita fans to improve upon the page

a proper disclaimer has been inserted at the top of the page

also if there is an error please give the page address so I know what
to revise...for example just say "Background" "Shinsengumi Period" and
so forth so I can save some time

over time as more information is gathered and contributed many
Shinsengumi member's pages will change to this format

[Previous #2848] [Next #2850]

#2850 [2006-06-18 17:56:38]

Re: The Okita Soji article on Wikipedia is ready to be uploaded to the SHQ website

by sevenofwiki

Wow! secretarytocapt3, You've updated the website already!

Just a few notes.

I. It's a misconception that Okita's mother died when he was "very young." In fact, she
died in 1862. (Mori, p.36 - p.37)

2. Okita Souji is listed in the death records at the family temple
as being the "2nd son of Okita Rintaro Genji (sp???)" (not to be confused with Okita
Rintaro Fujiwara no Mototsune.) Okita Rintaro Genji (also from the Inoue family) was
adopted into the Okita family; he died in 1852. (Mori, p.10)

It's believed that Okita Rintaro Genji adopted Okita Souji. (Mori, p.11)
(Myabe he also adopted Okita Rintaro Fujiwara no Mototsune?) Okita Rintaro Genji served
as the head of the Okita family, before Okita Rintaro Fujiwara no Mototsune became the
head of the family in place of the young heir, Okita Souji.

3. Okita changed his name to "Okita Souji Fujiwara no Kaneyoshi" before his departure to
Kyoto. He could have changed his name in 1863 (or in 1862, or less likely, in 1861.) I've
reversed my notes on the Okita discussion page at Wikipedia (and have taken all the caps
off.)

>A few notes
>
>1. Okita was born in the Shirakawa-han's mansion in Edo (present day Tokyo.)
>
>2. His birth name (in full) was Okita Soujirou Fujiwara no Harumasa. He later >changed
>his name to "Okita Souji Fujiwara no Kaneyoshi." Other than his full >name, he could be
>referred as Okita Souji, Okita Souji Kaneyoshi, or Fujiwara no Kaneyoshi. In the case of
>his birth name, he could be referred as Okita Soujirou, Fujiwara no Harumasa, or Okita
>Soujirou Harumasa (never Okita Harumasa Soujirou!)
>Family Name: Okita
>Given Name/First Name Equivalent: Soujirou, Souji
>Family Clan Name:Fujiwara
>Formal Given Name/Middle Name Equivalent: Harumasa, Kaneyoshi
>
>3. Okita was enrolled at the Tennen Rishin-ryu school between 1850 and 1852, Kondou
>Isami was enrolled in 1848. Kondou Isami was like a "TA" to Okita and didn't become the
>forth master until 1861, the same year Okita mastered all the techniques of Tennen
>Rishin-ryu.
>
>4. Okita was actually Hijikata's "senpei" and was enrolled at the Tennen Rishin-ryu school
>before Hijikata. (Hijikata was formally enrolled in 1859.)
>
>5. Okita was sent to a hospital in Edo during the Boshin War(1868-1869) and after the
>first battle (Battle of Toba-Fushimi) of Boshin War. It was not a tuberculosis hospital and
>an injured Kondo was sent to the same hospital with Okita.

4. This is only a suggestion, I think it's more appropriate to refer him as "Okita Souji
Fujiwara no Kaneyoshi." While Okita Souji Fujiwara no Kaneyoshi was a member of the
Shinsengumi, Okita Soujirou Fijiwara no Harumasa was the Head Coach at the Shieikan.

5. Even though my user name is "nlf7," I've been using my nickname "Seven" on all the
discussion pages at Wikipedia. May I suggest that you also use my nickname "Seven" to
avoid confusion or list both my user name and my nickname?


~Seven

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "secretary" wrote:
>
> test run http://www.shinsengumihq.com/OkitaSoujiro.htm
>
> again nlf7 can gather more Okita fans to improve upon the page
>
> a proper disclaimer has been inserted at the top of the page
>
> also if there is an error please give the page address so I know what
> to revise...for example just say "Background" "Shinsengumi Period" and
> so forth so I can save some time
>
> over time as more information is gathered and contributed many
> Shinsengumi member's pages will change to this format
>

[Previous #2849] [Next #2851]

#2851 [2006-06-18 18:43:24]

Re: The Okita Soji article on Wikipedia is ready to be uploaded to the SHQ websi

by shimazuryu

Nlf7:

It's always a pleasure to hear of your efforts in setting down good
data for Okita Soji. However, for the sake of clarification, I was
hoping you could help address a bit of a discrepancy I've found.

I'm looking at page 26 of Kikuchi Akira's "Shinsengumi 101 no Nazo",
and the death records of Soji at the family temple are quoted directly:

"Kenkouinjinmyoudou-koji. Died last day of the 5th month. 2nd son of
Okita Rintarou."

(The first, rather long word is his funerary name)

You've said that he was listed as "the 2nd son of Okita Rintaro
Genji"-- as cited on Mori, p. 10. I don't doubt the possibility of
another Okita Rintaro-- and in this case, the name that you're reading
as "Genji" is probably "Motoharu", which, with one character being the
same as "Mototsune", would indeed suggest a common family background
with Rintaro Mototsune. However, I can find no mention of an "Okita
Rintaro Genji" in this text, so I was hoping that you could possibly
point to a website where this name is mentioned.

Also, I can find no mention of "Okita Rintaro Genji" when it comes to
the adoption of Rintaro Mototsune. Rintaro Mototsune is listed in
Shinchogumi records as "Son of the late Okita Katsujiro, retainer of
Lord Abe Noto no Kami". (Kikuchi, p. 26) As Soji was still underage,
Rintaro Mototsune was adopted into the family, as was common custom
among families in such a predicament, in order to carry on the family
name. It seems improbable, though not impossible, that there was
another Okita Rintarou that was adopted, and who adopted Rintarou
Mototsune. Kikuchi's reference is the actual Okita family record, and
so, you can see my confusion with your statement.

As such, I was hoping that you could possibly help me out with regards
this.

-M.

[Previous #2850] [Next #2852]

#2852 [2006-06-18 19:33:58]

Re: The Okita Soji article on Wikipedia is ready to be uploaded to the SHQ websi

by sevenofwiki

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Shimazu Masayoshi" wrote:
>You've said that he was listed as "the 2nd son of Okita Rintaro Genji"-- as cited on Mori,
>p. 10. I don't doubt the possibility of another Okita Rintaro-- and in this case, the name
>that you're reading as "Genji" is probably "Motoharu", which, with one character being
>the same as "Mototsune", would indeed suggest a common family background with
>Rintaro Mototsune. However, I can find no mention of an "Okita Rintaro Genji" in this
>text, so I was hoping that you could possibly point to a website where this name is
>mentioned.

?????????: Okita Rintaro Fujiwara no Mototsune
He was Mitsu's husband.

???????: Okita Rintaro Genji(???)/Motoharu(???)
He was Mitsu and Soji's step-father; it's believed that he was their mother's second
husband.

In case the Kanji characters don't come up, I've left a note on the Okita Rintaro discussion
page at Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Okita_Rintaro

I'll upload book pages from both Oji and Mori's books within a few hours.

>Also, I can find no mention of "Okita Rintaro Genji" when it comes to
>the adoption of Rintaro Mototsune. Rintaro Mototsune is listed in
>Shinchogumi records as "Son of the late Okita Katsujiro, retainer of
>Lord Abe Noto no Kami". (Kikuchi, p. 26)

No, this isn't a fact. It's a theory or a possible explanation why Okita's listed as the
"second" son. (In regard of this, I did attach a question mark, didn't I?)

~Seven

[Previous #2851] [Next #2853]

#2853 [2006-06-18 20:12:00]

Re: The Okita Soji article on Wikipedia is ready to be uploaded to the SHQ websi

by shimazuryu

Nlf7:

My thanks for your prompt reply.

Please see this page--
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%B2%96%E7%94%B0%E6%9E%97%E5%A4%AA%E9%83%8E

The two men you refer to are one and the same.

The name you posted at the top reads:

"Okita Rintarou Fujiwara no Fusamasa"

The lower one reads:

"Okita Rintarou Mototsune"

I'm afraid that "Mototsune" can't be read "Genji".

According to the link I posted above (Japanese wikipedia), Okita
Rintarou Mototsune, Mitsu's husband, was referred to as "Mototsune" at
one point in his life, and "Fusamasa" at another point.

> >the adoption of Rintaro Mototsune. Rintaro Mototsune is listed in
> >Shinchogumi records as "Son of the late Okita Katsujiro, retainer of
> >Lord Abe Noto no Kami". (Kikuchi, p. 26)

I'm sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree. The record of Okita
Rintaro as [adopted] son of Okita Katsujiro *is* a fact, recorded in a
source related to the Shinchogumi, compiled *during* the Bakumatsu,
which Kikuchi lists. It wasn't raised as part of explaining why Soji
is listed as the "second son", it was merely confirming how Rintaro
Mototsune/Fusamasa was listed in Shinchogumi records. Kikuchi
theorizes later, but this much, with regards to Rintaro being
Katsujiro's "son", is a fact which Kikuchi cites as coming from the
record of "Shinchogumi Meisaishosocho", from 1865.

As always, thank you for your interaction, and for bringing activity
back into this group.

-M.

[Previous #2852] [Next #2854]

#2854 [2006-06-18 20:18:21]

Re: The Okita Soji article on Wikipedia is ready to be uploaded to the SHQ websi

by sevenofwiki

The second Rintaro was the first Rintaro's nephew. I've uploaded the book pages from
Mori's book.

Mori, p.10-p.11
http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/SHQ/photos/view/8b5a?b=1

Mori, p.12-p.13
http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/SHQ/photos/view/8b5a?b=2&m=s&o=0

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Shimazu Masayoshi" wrote:
>
> Nlf7:
>
> My thanks for your prompt reply.
>
> Please see this page--
> http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%B2%96%E7%94%B0%E6%9E%97%E5%A4%AA%E9%83%8E
>
> The two men you refer to are one and the same.
>
> The name you posted at the top reads:
>
> "Okita Rintarou Fujiwara no Fusamasa"
>
> The lower one reads:
>
> "Okita Rintarou Mototsune"
>
> I'm afraid that "Mototsune" can't be read "Genji".
>
> According to the link I posted above (Japanese wikipedia), Okita
> Rintarou Mototsune, Mitsu's husband, was referred to as "Mototsune" at
> one point in his life, and "Fusamasa" at another point.
>
> > >the adoption of Rintaro Mototsune. Rintaro Mototsune is listed in
> > >Shinchogumi records as "Son of the late Okita Katsujiro, retainer of
> > >Lord Abe Noto no Kami". (Kikuchi, p. 26)
>
> I'm sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree. The record of Okita
> Rintaro as [adopted] son of Okita Katsujiro *is* a fact, recorded in a
> source related to the Shinchogumi, compiled *during* the Bakumatsu,
> which Kikuchi lists. It wasn't raised as part of explaining why Soji
> is listed as the "second son", it was merely confirming how Rintaro
> Mototsune/Fusamasa was listed in Shinchogumi records. Kikuchi
> theorizes later, but this much, with regards to Rintaro being
> Katsujiro's "son", is a fact which Kikuchi cites as coming from the
> record of "Shinchogumi Meisaishosocho", from 1865.
>
> As always, thank you for your interaction, and for bringing activity
> back into this group.
>
> -M.
>

[Previous #2853] [Next #2856]

#2856 [2006-06-18 20:45:18]

Re: The Okita Soji article on Wikipedia is ready to be uploaded to the SHQ websi

by sevenofwiki

I know it's a fact that Okita Rintaro was the adopted son of Okita Katsujiro, I've been
wondering whether the Rintaro's uncle, the other Rintaro, could have also adopted him
after Katsujiro.

~Seven



--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Shimazu Masayoshi" wrote:
> I'm sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree. The record of Okita
> Rintaro as [adopted] son of Okita Katsujiro *is* a fact, recorded in a
> source related to the Shinchogumi, compiled *during* the Bakumatsu,
> which Kikuchi lists. It wasn't raised as part of explaining why Soji
> is listed as the "second son", it was merely confirming how Rintaro
> Mototsune/Fusamasa was listed in Shinchogumi records. Kikuchi
> theorizes later, but this much, with regards to Rintaro being
> Katsujiro's "son", is a fact which Kikuchi cites as coming from the
> record of "Shinchogumi Meisaishosocho", from 1865.
>
> As always, thank you for your interaction, and for bringing activity
> back into this group.
>
> -M.
>

[Previous #2854] [Next #2858]

#2858 [2006-06-18 20:39:58]

Re: The Okita Soji article on Wikipedia is ready to be uploaded to the SHQ websi

by sevenofwiki

PS. The Japanese Okita Rintaro (Fujiwara no Fusamasa) article at Wikipedia is
correct.

Please see this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Okita_Rintaro

On the article page, I'd copied ?? as "Mototsune" by mistake. It should have been spelt as
Fusamasa instead. My apologies.

~Seven



--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Shimazu Masayoshi" wrote:
>
> Nlf7:
>
> My thanks for your prompt reply.
>
> Please see this page--
> http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%B2%96%E7%94%B0%E6%9E%97%E5%A4%AA%E9%83%8E
>
> The two men you refer to are one and the same.
>
> The name you posted at the top reads:
>
> "Okita Rintarou Fujiwara no Fusamasa"
>
> The lower one reads:
>
> "Okita Rintarou Mototsune"
>
> I'm afraid that "Mototsune" can't be read "Genji".
>
> According to the link I posted above (Japanese wikipedia), Okita
> Rintarou Mototsune, Mitsu's husband, was referred to as "Mototsune" at
> one point in his life, and "Fusamasa" at another point.
>
> > >the adoption of Rintaro Mototsune. Rintaro Mototsune is listed in
> > >Shinchogumi records as "Son of the late Okita Katsujiro, retainer of
> > >Lord Abe Noto no Kami". (Kikuchi, p. 26)
>
> I'm sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree. The record of Okita
> Rintaro as [adopted] son of Okita Katsujiro *is* a fact, recorded in a
> source related to the Shinchogumi, compiled *during* the Bakumatsu,
> which Kikuchi lists. It wasn't raised as part of explaining why Soji
> is listed as the "second son", it was merely confirming how Rintaro
> Mototsune/Fusamasa was listed in Shinchogumi records. Kikuchi
> theorizes later, but this much, with regards to Rintaro being
> Katsujiro's "son", is a fact which Kikuchi cites as coming from the
> record of "Shinchogumi Meisaishosocho", from 1865.
>
> As always, thank you for your interaction, and for bringing activity
> back into this group.
>
> -M.
>

[Previous #2856]


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