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A guide book for the sequel to NHK Shinsengumi

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#2613 [2005-11-13 05:02:38]

A guide book for the sequel to NHK Shinsengumi

by tamagot93

Hello, long time no see !

TV Navi magazine will publish a special guide book of the sequel to
"Shinsengumi!! The last day of Hijikata Toshizo" which will be aired at
the beginning ot the next year.
This book would contain many photos and "making of " stuff and will be
available from mid december.
You may reserve it on amazon.jp
http://www.amazon.co.jp/exec/obidos/ASIN/4594604242/suzumian03-22/ref%3Dnosim/249-0686137-1794768

The other book as the "Perfect partner" of this guide book seems too be
interesting too.
http://www.amazon.co.jp/exec/obidos/ASIN/4434068148/ref=pd_bxgy_img_2/249-0686137-1794768
It's a book around Nagakura Shinpachi which is designed by his two great
grandchildren. One is a writer and another is a TV director.
The book would contain many things about Nagakura and Shinsengumi
written by the people of different field, like novelist, mangaka, actor
etc...
For Japanese language readers.

Tama

[Next #2614]

#2614 [2005-11-13 18:25:15]

RE: [SHQ] A guide book for the sequel to NHK Shinsengumi

by shimazuryu

I hope that in the sequel, they feature people like Saigo Tanomo, Kawai
Tsugunosuke, and Nakano Takeko...it'd be nice to see a depiction of the
interactions between Saigo Tanomo and Saitou Hajime, at least-- esp. when
they were at Shirakawa Castle.

-M.

[Previous #2613] [Next #2615]

#2615 [2005-11-14 19:55:42]

For those of you who may have wanted information on Okita's family...

by shimazuryu

All the information you'd ever want about Okita Soji's family, and then
some. From the Okita family record, as quoted in "101 Mysteries of the
Shinsengumi," by Kikuchi Akira. pp 24-25

Chicago-style reference:

Kikuchi Akira, Shinsengumi 101 no Nazo (Tokyo: Shin Jinbutsu Oraisha, 2000)

And now, without further ado, the information:

Soji's sisters:

-Mitsu was born on Tenpo 4, April 8 (May 20, 1833 by the Western calendar).
-Kin was born on Tenpo 7, April 11 (May 25, 1836 by the Western calendar).

Marriage:


-In Koka 3 (1846), at age 14, Mitsu married Inoue Rintaro, younger brother
of Inoue Sozo, who was related to Inoue Genzaburo.

-Inoue Rintaro, by marrying into the Okita family as an adopted heir, became
(full name) Okita Rintaro Fujiwara no Mototsune. Later became a captain in
the Shinchogumi.

-Kin, according to the family record, married Tatebayashi senior councilor
Nakano Den'emon Yoshihide. However, in reality, she married Mineyama
retainer Nakano Dennojo Yoshihide (stipend-- 23 hyo, 3 retainer allotments).

Children:

-In Man'ei 6 Jan. 26 (Western style- 1853 April 5), their first son
Yoshijiro was born.
-Ansei 2 Jul. 17 (Western style- 1855 August 29), 1st daughter Ishi was
born.
-Genji 1, Oct. 26 (Western style- 1864 Nov. 25), 2nd daughter Kuma born.
-Meiji 11 (1878) Jul. 12, 2nd son Sugukichi ���g born (not sure of the name
reading).

Residence:


-In 1863, Mitsu and Rintaro moved to Yotsuya Tenmacho Itchome.

-In 1863, Rintaro joined the Roshigumi, which went to Kyoto, came back, and
became Shinchogumi, under the sponsorship of the Shonai domain. At that
point, they moved to a kumi-yashikiat the former site of the mansion of
Tanuma Harushige. They lived there until the Boshin War.

-Keio 4, Feb. 26 (March 19, 1868 in the Western style), the family left Edo
at the orders of Shonai.

-Meiji 5, they returned to Tokyo, lived in a place called the "Ume-yashiki"
(Plum Mansion) in Sumida-Mukaijima. Rintaro died on Feb. 13, Meiji 16 (1883)
at age 58.

-Mitsu then lived in Shiogama in the former Sendai domain.
-On Jan. 26, Meiji 28 (1895), Mitsu returned to Hino, lived with Inoue
Kyuzaburo.

-Soon after, Ishi married, and then Sugukichi went to Manchuria. Mitsu
followed him there in Meiji 39, dying there on Nov. 2, Meiji 40 (1907), at
around 10 in the morning, without returning home.

NOTE: Even though the story about Harada Sanosuke escaping to Manchuria is
probably fake, it's very easy to imagine him checking in on Mitsu now and
then. Might be good material for a fanfic!

-Kin died April 2, Meiji 41 (1908). According to her son Nakano Kanzaburo,
she died around the same time of the morning as Mitsu did-- 10 AM.

[Previous #2614] [Next #2616]

#2616 [2005-11-15 16:09:16]

Okita, Part 2

by shimazuryu

More information on Okita.

-M.

--------------------------

Kikuchi Akira, "Shinsengumi 101 no Nazo," p. 26-27

Okita Souji is listed in the death records at the family temple
as being the "2nd son of
Okita Rintaro"

Ancestors (earliest to most recent)

1. Great-grandfather- Kan'emon- died Bunsei 2 (1819)
2. Grandfather- Sanshiro- died Tenpo 4 (1833)
3. Father- Katsujiro- Koka 2 (1845)

It's not doubted that Katsujiro was his real father, but there's still the
record of "2nd son of Okita Rintaro" to deal with. The Hino Sato family
(Hijikata Toshizo's brother in law Hikogoro) also records Soji as being
Okita Rintaro Mototsune's youngest son. According to the "Okita-ke Bunsho"
(Okita Family Record), however, lists Rintaro Mototsune as being Mitsu's
husband, so it's impossible that he was Soji's father.

However, if the death record is correct, then we must conclude that Soji's
father was *another* Rintaro. But that complicates things. After all,
Rintaro was adopted as the successor, and thus became Katsujiro's "son"

In May of Bunkyu 3 (1863), when Rintaro entered Shinchogumi, he denoted his
father as "the late Okita Katsujiro, retainer of Lord Abe Noto no Kami," and
again, describing himself in Keio 1 (1865), as "son of Okita Katsujiro,
retainer of Lord Abe Noto no Kami" and again, in official documents of Meiji
4 and 5, before the prefectures were organized into their present form, as
"Eldest son of Okita Rintaro, former samurai of Nihonmatsu Prefecture, in
Oushuu." That being the case, it is impossible that Rintaro was Soji's real
father. At the same time of Rintaro's last description of himself (the Meiji
4/5 one), Mitsu was listed in the same document as "Eldest daughter of
Kondou Shuusuke of Tokyo"

In Meiji 7, the Okita family records list her the same way. Her son
Yoshijiro mentions her the same way-- "Eldest daughter of Kondou Touzou of
North Tama county, Ozawa Village." Mitsu's true origin as a daughter of
Okita Katsujiro and her even having been born into the Okita family are thus
hidden. Why is that?

The reason is: A man by the name of Chiba Yaichiro entered Shinchogumi in
Keio 2 (1866). In his record, "Shinchogumi to Shonai-han" (Shinchogumi and
the Shonai domain), he lists Rintaro as "the birth brother of Okita Soji."
Rintaro, it seems, told everyone he was Soji's blood brother, and in order
to hide this, he listed Mitsu as the daughter of the Kondou family. With her
origin thus concealed, even her son Yoshijiro didn't know her true origin.

THUS, with Rintaro selling himself as Katsujiro's "eldest son," that makes
Soji the "second son" of Katsujiro. With such confusion with the family
records, whoever took down the listing for Soji's lineage in the death
record was obviously confused, and ended up making Soji the "2nd son of
Okita Rintaro"

In Tenpo 2 (1831), Katsujiro is listed in Shirakawa-Abe clan documents:

"Stipend of 22 hyo and 2 retainer allotments. Succeeded on Tenpo 2, July 22.
Samurai of Tomobe Jiemon's unit, Okita Katsujiro."

People who drew such low stipends, also amongst the Tokugawa shogunate's
gokenin (lower retainers), were "common." As a result, Rintaro and Soji, in
the Shinchogumi and Shinsengumi respectively, coming from such a background,
were truly 'creating a new heaven and earth'.

[Previous #2615] [Next #2618]

#2618 [2005-11-15 19:09:15]

Re: [SHQ] For those of you who may have wanted information on Okita's family...

by okitakaneyoshi

Okay, clarification... these are all Mitsu's children, right? Kin didn't have any children?



Kane

Hirotada Tokugawa <patriot014@...> wrote:

Children:

-In Man'ei 6 Jan. 26 (Western style- 1853 April 5), their first son
Yoshijiro was born.
-Ansei 2 Jul. 17 (Western style- 1855 August 29), 1st daughter Ishi was
born.
-Genji 1, Oct. 26 (Western style- 1864 Nov. 25), 2nd daughter Kuma born.
-Meiji 11 (1878) Jul. 12, 2nd son Sugukichi 卓吉 born (not sure of the name
reading).



---------------------------------
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[Previous #2616] [Next #2619]

#2619 [2005-11-15 20:06:20]

Re: For those of you who may have wanted information on Okita's family...

by shimazuryu

Yoshijiro, Ishi, Kuma, and Sugukichi are Mitsu's children. Nakano
Kanzaburo is Kin's son. Not sure if Kin had any more children.

-M.

[Previous #2618] [Next #2622]

#2622 [2005-11-20 12:37:25]

Re: For those of you who may have wanted information on Okita's family...

by zhusanna

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Hirotada Tokugawa"
wrote:
>
> -In Koka 3 (1846), at age 14, Mitsu married Inoue Rintaro, younger
brother of Inoue Sozo, who was related to Inoue Genzaburo.
>
> -Inoue Rintaro, by marrying into the Okita family as an adopted
heir, became(full name) Okita Rintaro Fujiwara no Mototsune. Later
became a captain in the Shinchogumi.
>


I have *so* many questions right now, but I'll keep it to just a
few at a time. Why would Rintaro be adopted into the Okita family?
If Katsujiro died in 1845, and Rintaro married in 1846, was this
arranged in advance by Katsujiro - or someone else? If Katsujiro
was ill and knew he was going to die, would it have been the normal
thing to do in adopting an heir because Souji was so young? Did
that make Rintaro head of the Okita family? What if Souji had not
died so young? Could an adopted heir displace a blood heir? And,
where does "Fujiwara" in Rintaro's adopted name come from? Perhaps
someone wouldn't mind giving a quick history lesson on adopting
heirs?

And...about the adoption situation presented in NHK with Shuhei - If
Kondo was going to name Souji his successor as the Tennen Rishin
master, why wouldn't he also make him the Kondo family heir? I had
assumed it was because he was already the Okita family heir. Is this
a case of mixing historical accuracy and taking historical liberties?

I hope I made at least a little sense.

[Previous #2619] [Next #2623]

#2623 [2005-11-20 16:05:08]

RE: [SHQ] Re: For those of you who may have wanted information on Okita's family...

by shimazuryu

>I have *so* many questions right now, but I'll keep it to just a
>few at a time.

Don't worry, history is my job-- I live for these questions. :)


>Why would Rintaro be adopted into the Okita family?

Because Souji was too young and being trained in kenjutsu-- and if Kondo
later had the intention to adopt him, this all makes sense-- Kondo would
have probably had that intention when Souji entered the school. With Souji
essentially "out" of the Okita family (or such a discussion taking place
when Katsujiro was still alive), the only alternative would have been for an
heir to be adopted.

>If Katsujiro died in 1845, and Rintaro married in 1846, was this
>arranged in advance by Katsujiro - or someone else?

They would have probably been engaged before Katsujiro died. My guess would
be that they waited an appropriate time. In Asian cultures (I speak from
experience) engagement can come anywhere from one year to three before the
actual marriage.

>If Katsujiro
>was ill and knew he was going to die, would it have been the normal
>thing to do in adopting an heir because Souji was so young?

Yes. Amongst Shogunal officials it was weirder-- sometimes one could be dead
for several days and then they'd set his body up behind a screen and have a
retainer read something that the deceased supposedly wrote-- "Due to my
illness, I hereby adopt so-and-so as my heir..." Because, you see, no heir
means the family not only ends, but the surviving relatives (especially
women) have pretty much their entire estate/source of livelihood taken away
by government order (I think it's called 'toritsubushi' in some cases).

>Did
>that make Rintaro head of the Okita family?

Very much so.

>What if Souji had not
>died so young? Could an adopted heir displace a blood heir?

Yes-- happened sometimes.

>And,
>where does "Fujiwara" in Rintaro's adopted name come from?

Fujiwara are one of the three big Heian-era clans that everyone liked to
claim descent from. The other two were Minamoto (Genji) and Taira
(Heike/Heishi). Fujiwara were court nobles, the other two were princely
families that became warrior clans. So when someone gave their full name,
they'd also name who they (ostensibly) descended from, even if it was a
somewhat tenuous claim *cough*Lord Ieyasu*cough*

Hence, Okita Souji's full name was first "Okita Soujirou Fujiwara no
Harumasa" and later "Okita Souji Fujiwara no Kaneyoshi"

Also, in some dealings with the Imperial Court, if Souji had, say, received
a summons from the Emperor or a Prince or other noble, he would have been
summoned-- not as Okita Souji, but as "Fujiwara no Kaneyoshi"-- kind of like
how Matsudaira Katamori *was* summoned as "Minamoto Katamori"

>Perhaps
>someone wouldn't mind giving a quick history lesson on adopting
>heirs?

That's sort of tricky...but I'll try to figure a general description out and
post it before long.

>And...about the adoption situation presented in NHK with Shuhei - If
>Kondo was going to name Souji his successor as the Tennen Rishin
>master, why wouldn't he also make him the Kondo family heir? I had
>assumed it was because he was already the Okita family heir. Is this
>a case of mixing historical accuracy and taking historical liberties?

Yes...sorta. Inheriting the tradition doesn't necessarily mean that you
inherit the master's family. Tennen Rishin Ryu today is an example of that--
the Kondo and Miyagawa families alternate headship, if I recall correctly,
but the present master is......Sono Seigo? Not sure...the last Kondo to be
head of the school was Kondo Isuke, who I believe died in the early 1990s.

Like I said before, Okita was probably not the family heir, even from the
very beginning.

If Kondo was going to name Okita his heir for both school and family, he
probably would have followed how Kondo Shuusuke did it for *him*-- train him
first, then when he was about to take over, have him change his name and
then succeed to the family *and* dojo headship.

Trust me, family/succession issues in Edo-era Japan are incredibly weird.
Which is why Kondo naming Tani Masatake as his heir (Kondo Shuuhei) is
interesting-- he would have been prepping Souji for years, BUT, since Tani
Mantaro and Sanjuro, two brothers who ran the Tani spear dojo (Taneda Hozoin
Ryu) joined Shinsengumi, Kondo would have done what was natural in a
"business deal" like that-- adopted their brother in order to seal the deal
by "family" ties. Incidentally, the Tani dojo was where Harada Sanosuke
learned how to use the spear.

I hope this helps!

-M.

[Previous #2622] [Next #2624]

#2624 [2005-11-20 16:51:21]

RE: [SHQ] Re: For those of you who may have wanted information on Okita's family...

by themightysupercracker

Yes...sorta. Inheriting the tradition doesn't
necessarily mean that you
inherit the master's family. Tennen Rishin Ryu today
is an example of that--
the Kondo and Miyagawa families alternate headship, if
I recall correctly,
but the present master is......Sono Seigo? Not
sure...the last Kondo to be
head of the school was Kondo Isuke, who I believe died
in the early 1990s.

Hello, I belong to a group called the Yamato Yagyu Kai
which happens to be under a man named Sono Seigo
(Walter Sensei calls him Seigo, the letter he wrote to
Manogue Sensei he spells his name Seiko). This Sono
that you mention wouldn't happen to be the Sono Seigo
who lives in Osaka would it? Sono Sensei is the 17th
head of Edo Yagyu Shinkage Ryu. I think our group is
or was connected to a dojo that teaches Buikukai
Aikido. The instructor there, a man named Yoshida
(I'm afraid I don't know his first name, but he is the
Aikido instructor to my Kenjutsu instructor Paul
Manogue) is a shihan of Tennen Rishin Ryu.

Remember, No Matter How Bad Life Gets, There Is Always Beer.
-Norm MacDonald



__________________________________
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[Previous #2623] [Next #2625]

#2625 [2005-11-20 18:01:07]

RE: [SHQ] Re: For those of you who may have wanted information on Okita's family...

by shimazuryu

Oops!! Sorry....I read the article about the current Tennen Rishin Ryu head
some years ago, right around the time I first encountered Yamato Yagyu-kai,
so I obviously mixed the two up. My apologies!

-M.

[Previous #2624] [Next #2626]

#2626 [2005-11-20 18:09:39]

RE: [SHQ] Re: For those of you who may have wanted information on Okita's family...

by themightysupercracker

OK, so you've encountered the group in Japan eh? I
haven't had the pleasure of meeting Sono Sensei yet,
but our group is heading out there early next year.
I'm also trying to church up on my Japanese so I can
speak with Yoshida Sensei on my own. From what I've
been told the man knows volumes about the Shinsengumi
and regardless, seeing Tennen Rishin Ryu in person
would be pretty exciting (even for a humble Shinkage
Ryu fencer like me :-D).

--- Hirotada Tokugawa <patriot014@...> wrote:

> Oops!! Sorry....I read the article about the current
> Tennen Rishin Ryu head
> some years ago, right around the time I first
> encountered Yamato Yagyu-kai,
> so I obviously mixed the two up. My apologies!
>
> -M.
>
>
>


Remember, No Matter How Bad Life Gets, There Is Always Beer.
-Norm MacDonald



__________________________________
Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.
http://farechase.yahoo.com

[Previous #2625] [Next #2628]

#2628 [2005-11-22 15:34:18]

Re: For those of you who may have wanted information on Okita's family...

by zhusanna

>
> >I have *so* many questions right now, but I'll keep it to just a
> >few at a time.
>
> Don't worry, history is my job-- I live for these questions. :)
>


Thank you so much for answering all my questions. I wasn't sure
if I should ask so many...

But if you really do live for these questions - I will ask more often!

Thanks again.

[Previous #2626] [Next #2792]

#2792 [2006-06-11 16:01:01]

Re: For those of you who may have wanted information on Okita's family...

by nlf7

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Shimazu Masayoshi" wrote:

Kin had 5 daughters and NO son!
(Her daughters were born in 1853, 1858, 1870, 1876, and 1878.)

>
> Yoshijiro, Ishi, Kuma, and Sugukichi are Mitsu's children. Nakano
> Kanzaburo is Kin's son. Not sure if Kin had any more children.
>
> -M.
>

[Previous #2628] [Next #2801]

#2801 [2006-06-12 17:09:26]

Re: [SHQ] Re: For those of you who may have wanted information on Okita's family...

by okitakaneyoshi

Thanks for clearing that up, Seven ^_^

Btw, thank you for providing us with much info on Okita. Rest assured your efforts are much, much appreciated.



Kane

nlf7 <nlf7@...> wrote:
--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Shimazu Masayoshi" wrote:

Kin had 5 daughters and NO son!
(Her daughters were born in 1853, 1858, 1870, 1876, and 1878.)

>
> Yoshijiro, Ishi, Kuma, and Sugukichi are Mitsu's children. Nakano
> Kanzaburo is Kin's son. Not sure if Kin had any more children.
>
> -M.
>








K.

------------

"Sashimukau kokoro wa kiyoki mizukagami." ~ Hijikata Toshizou
(The heart facing mine is a clear reflecting pool.)

"Ugokaneba yami ni hedatsu ya hana to mizu." ~ Okita Souji
(If they don't move, they'll be separated by darkness: the flower and the water..)




Kaneyoshi
http://www.livejournal.com/~kaneyoshi


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[Previous #2792] [Next #3153]

#3153 [2007-01-30 02:56:20]

Re: For those of you who may have wanted information on Okita's family...

by sevenofwiki

My apologies. I've just confirmed that Kin did in fact have a son (and 5 daughters.) I don't
know why a few sources only say that she had 5 daughters.

~Seven

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "nlf7" wrote:
>
> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Shimazu Masayoshi" wrote:
>
> Kin had 5 daughters and NO son!
> (Her daughters were born in 1853, 1858, 1870, 1876, and 1878.)
>
> >
> > Yoshijiro, Ishi, Kuma, and Sugukichi are Mitsu's children. Nakano
> > Kanzaburo is Kin's son. Not sure if Kin had any more children.
> >
> > -M.
> >
>

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