Hijikata Toshizou - checking facts

Hello! Newbie here Glad to have joined, there seem to be such a lot of knowledgeable people around.

As such, I have a few questions, or rather a few things I'd like to have confirmed/dismissed, on what I've read so far about Hijikata's early life. (I have a special fondness for him - all the Shinsengumi boys are interesting, but this one's special!)

This is what I've found so far:
-Full name: Hijikata Toshizou Yoshitoyo. (Anyone know if he had another childhood name, or if he ever changed it later in life?)

- He was the youngest of 6 children, and had 3 brothers and 2 sisters. The younger sister's name was Onobu (she later married Sato Hikogorou). I read somewhere that the oldest brother's name was Kiroku, and the Shinsengumi! NHK series gives another brother's name as Tamajirou.

- According to one site, both his parents died when he was very young (IIRC it even said that his father was already dead by the time Toshizou was born). The older of his sisters also died early.

- Toshizou was raised first by his brother Kiroku, then moved to Onobu's home at the age of 11. This was also the time he lost his first job, through being disrespectful to his employer.

- I understand he got to know (the future) Kondou Isami when they were both in their late teens. Sources differ on whether he joined the Tennen Rishin ryuu at this time, and simply didn't become a *resident* student until later, or if he didn't in fact join until he was 28 (I think that's the right age).

- He lost another job at 17, this time he was working at a clothing store, and got fired for sleeping with one of his female co-workers. It was after this that his brother in law helped him set himself up as a medicine peddler.

So... right, wrong, what?

Oh, and a bonus question Does anyone know much about the relationship between Hijikata and Okita Souji? Most sources I've found mention how the original Shieikan four were "like brothers"... but two people I've debated with (admitted, people who really dislike the way Shinsengumi manga/anime tend to turn those two into a couple) claim that it's "well known" that Hijikata and Okita didn't get along. Which, granted, isn't exactly antithetic to their being foster brothers - you should see my family! - but I wondered if anyone could shed some light on the topic.

Linda/Enma-Ou


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Glad to have you with us, Linda! I'll answer these questions for you.

>-Full name: Hijikata Toshizou Yoshitoyo. (Anyone know if he had another
>childhood name, or if he ever changed it later in life?)

Not that I know of...he was Hijikata Toshizou Yoshitoyo pretty much all the
way throughout life.

>- He was the youngest of 6 children, and had 3 brothers and 2 sisters. The
>younger sister's name was Onobu (she later married Sato Hikogorou). I read
>somewhere that the oldest brother's name was Kiroku, and the Shinsengumi!
>NHK series gives another brother's name as Tamajirou.

He was actually the youngest of nine children, although maybe only six
survived to adulthood...Onobu's original name was Otoku-- and she indeed
married Satou Hikogorou, who was Toshizou's first cousin. The siblings I
have the names of are Kiroku, Tamejirou, Daisaku, Shuu (maybe I'm reading
the kanji wrong-- it's the same "Shuu" as in "Kondou Shuusuke"), and
Onobu/Otoku.

>- According to one site, both his parents died when he was very young (IIRC
>it even said that his father was already dead by the time Toshizou was
>born). The older of his sisters also died early.

IIRC?

Hijikata Izaemon indeed did die before Toshizou was born. At age 5, Toshizou
lost his mother, Etsu. Following that, he was brought up by his formerly
separated (comment: might be �estranged�, but I don�t know�) elder brother
Kiroku and his wife.

>- I understand he got to know (the future) Kondou Isami when they were both
>in their late teens. Sources differ on whether he joined the Tennen Rishin
>ryuu at this time, and simply didn't become a *resident* student until
>later, or if he didn't in fact join until he was 28 (I think that's the
>right age)

I think they might've known each other in their childhood...but I'm not
sure.

>- He lost another job at 17, this time he was working at a clothing store,
>and got fired for sleeping with one of his female co-workers. It was after
>this that his brother in law helped him set himself up as a medicine
>peddler.

I can't remember who it was, but I read somewhere that Hijikata indeed
worked in a kimono shop at some point, and was kicked out for having an
affair with one of the (female) customers. Watsuki Nobuhiro-sensei
elaborates on this, using it as (or so I've heard) the historical basis for
why Shinomori Aoshi looks so much like Hijikata.

>Oh, and a bonus question Does anyone know much about the
>relationship between Hijikata and Okita Souji?

There's some stuff in this regard that I'm not quite sure on, but I'm trying
to sort...Okita's sister, Mitsu, was married to Rintarou, who was adopted
into the Okita family, although he was originally, like Kondou and Hijikata,
a farmer from Tama. His original family name was Inoue-- possibly pointing
to a family connection between Okita and Inoue Genzaburou...although I'm not
sure. Hijikata, as it's commonly known, probably did have a brotherly
relationship with Okita, though, and I think he even visited him in the
hospital in Edo before the Shinsengumi retreated to Aizu.

If there's anything else you'd like to know, please don't hesitate to ask.

--M.

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Hi again!

>Glad to have you with us, Linda! I'll answer these questions for you.

Oh thank you! Just be warned, I am *insanely* curious, so I'm likely to have a ton more.

>He was actually the youngest of nine children, although maybe only six
>survived to adulthood...

Hmmm... an industrious lot, those Hijikatas

>Onobu's original name was Otoku-- and she indeed
>married Satou Hikogorou, who was Toshizou's first cousin.

Is it known if those two had any children of their own? I haven't been able to find any facts on that, though the fact they took Toshizou in and Hikogorou got him involved in his family's business might suggest they didn't have a son, at least...

>- According to one site, both his parents died when he was very young (IIRC
>it even said that his father was already dead by the time Toshizou was
>born). The older of his sisters also died early.

>IIRC?

If I Recall Correctly. I often don't.

> Following that, he was brought up by his formerly
>separated (comment: might be “estranged”, but I don’t know…) elder >brother Kiroku and his wife.

Hmmm... as in Kiroku had been out of touch with the rest of the family? He still lived in the Tama area, right?

> Watsuki Nobuhiro-sensei
>elaborates on this, using it as (or so I've heard) the historical basis for
>why Shinomori Aoshi looks so much like Hijikata.

...'cause he's his son or something? Could you give me a few quotes?

>If there's anything else you'd like to know, please don't hesitate to ask.

...and with this sentence, M-sama seals his or her own doom.

Thanks for the help!

Linda/Enma-O

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, Linda Larsson wrote:

> Hello! Newbie here Glad to have joined, there seem to be

such a lot of knowledgeable people around.

>
> As such, I have a few questions, or rather a few things I'd like

to have confirmed/dismissed, on what I've read so far about
Hijikata's early life. (I have a special fondness for him - all the
Shinsengumi boys are interesting, but this one's special!)

Hello, Linda-san. I am momoiro-usagi.
I am also Hijikata's fan.
I am very happy that I can meet foreign Hijikata's fan.

Although the answer of M-san is very detailed, the mistake in some
exists.
Please let me correct only a few.

> This is what I've found so far:
> -Full name: Hijikata Toshizou Yoshitoyo. (Anyone know if he had

another childhood name, or if he ever changed it later in life?)

He used the name of Naitou Hayato for the period from
Kouyouchinbutai to Nagareyama as a retainer of Tokugawa government.
I think that the name which he used except Hijikata Toshizou is only
this name.

> - He was the youngest of 6 children, and had 3 brothers and 2

sisters. The younger sister's name was Onobu (she later married Sato
Hikogorou). I read somewhere that the oldest brother's name was
Kiroku, and the Shinsengumi! NHK series gives another brother's name
as Tamajirou.

>
> - According to one site, both his parents died when he was very

young (IIRC it even said that his father was already dead by the
time Toshizou was born). The older of his sisters also died early.

He is ten brothers' youngest child.
Since four of children of it died early very much, record hardly
exists.
Other brothers are Tamejirou, Kiroku, Shuu, Daisaku, and Nobu.
(When calling a female name a long time ago, "O" was attached on the
name. Onobu is the name called courteously and her true name is Nobu.
By the way, what information is Otoku? M-san.
I looked at it for the first time. )

The top elder brother is Tamejirou.
Properly speaking, he was the inheritor of Hijikata house, but he
was a blind person by nature.
(The physically handicapped person was not able to become an
inheritor at the time.)
Therefore, the second elder brother's Kiroku inherited Hijikata
house.
The older elder sister is Shuu.
She has died of an illness at the age of 16, when Toshizou is 3
years old.
The third elder brother's Daisaku became a doctor's adopted child,
and became a name of Kasuya Ryojyun.
A younger elder sister's Nobu often looked after Toshizou.
She married Satou Hikogorou who is a cousin.
Masa which is the mother of Hikogorou was the sister of the father
of Nobu.
Masa wished marriage of Nobu and Hikogorou.

These are their age in 1835 when Toshizou was born.
Tamejirou was 24 years old, Kiroku was 17 years old, Shuu was 13
years old, Daisaku was 8 years old, and Nobu was 5 years old.
(Here, Kazoedoshi is used.)

The father of Toshizou is Yoshiatsu (Hayato).
He died, several months before Toshizou was born.
Moreover, Etsu of the mother of Toshizou died of an illness, when he
was 6 years old.

> - Toshizou was raised first by his brother Kiroku, then moved to

Onobu's home at the age of 11. This was also the time he lost his
first job, through being disrespectful to his employer.

Toshizou found a job at the big kimono store of Edo at the age of
11.
However, he quarreled with the boss and has retired immediately.
The store at which he found a job at the time is Matsuzakaya in
Ueno.
(It was a name of Itou-Gofukuten at the time.)
Although this store exists even now, it is a very high-class store.
I think that Kiroku suffered troubles very much in order to make
Toshizou find a job at this store.
(I think that he tried to look for a place of work good for a
younger brother as parents' substitute.)
Toshizou betrayed the expectation.
Possibly he was hard to return to the house of Kiroku.
He was in Satou's house rather than Hijikata's house in many cases.
(Satou Hikogorou is a very stouthearted person and got along well
with Toshizou.)

> - I understand he got to know (the future) Kondou Isami when they

were both in their late teens. Sources differ on whether he joined
the Tennen Rishin ryuu at this time, and simply didn't become a
*resident* student until later, or if he didn't in fact join until
he was 28 (I think that's the right age).

Satou Hikogorou had Dojyo in the house, in order to study Tennen
Rishin Ryuu.
Kondou came there and was teaching the art of fencing.
It is not known about what time Toshizou went into Tennen Rishin
Ryuu.
"Ryouyuden" written by Kojima Shikanosuke who is the relative of
Toshizou is writing that Toshizou went into Tennen Rishin Ryuu at
the age of 17.
However, there is no name of Toshizou in the data of the time of a
Tennen Rishin Ryuu side.
It is 1859 years that Toshizou went into it formally.
Toshizou was 25 years old.
However, admission by this age is too slow as a swordsman.
Therefore, many researchers are surmising that it was distant from
there for some reasons, after he goes into Tennen Rishin Ryuu at the
age of 17.

> - He lost another job at 17, this time he was working at a

clothing store, and got fired for sleeping with one of his female co-
workers. It was after this that his brother in law helped him set
himself up as a medicine peddler.

>
> So... right, wrong, what?

Mostly, it is a correct answer.^^
Toshizou failed in the problem with a woman.
It was scolded by Satou Hikogorou and he solved this problem by his
own power.
Toshizou had a medicinal box and the tool of the art of fencing, and
went out for sale of medicine.
And when Dojyo of the art of fencing was found, he had the art of
fencing taught to the occasion which sells medicine by the Dojyo.
The form of various sword styles was mixed with his sword.
He has not got Menkyo (license) of Tennen Rishin Ryuu.
It is said that it is because Kondo Syuusai did not regard the sword
style which he mixed as good.

> Oh, and a bonus question Does anyone know much about the

relationship between Hijikata and Okita Souji? Most sources I've
found mention how the original Shieikan four were "like brothers"...
but two people I've debated with (admitted, people who really
dislike the way Shinsengumi manga/anime tend to turn those two into
a couple) claim that it's "well known" that Hijikata and Okita
didn't get along. Which, granted, isn't exactly antithetic to their
being foster brothers - you should see my family! - but I wondered
if anyone could shed some light on the topic.

I'm sorry, since he does not understand your question well, I may
answer that it is different.
(I can read English only with translation software.)

It is a fiction that Hijikata and Okita were good friends like
brothers.
Of course, they may have been good friends.
However, such their relation cannot be found out in existing
documents.

As for the relation of them who appear in Manga/Anime, the many are
based on the novel of Siba Ryotarou rather than the historical fact.
The novel of Shiba made the boom of Shinsengumi.
However, the image of Shiba-Shinsengumi has also been created
together with it.

Although Kondo has charisma nature and is a benevolent person, he is
simple and foolish.
Hijikata is a cool and cruel man good at a stratagem.
Okita is a clean young man like a child, and has cruel character.
Okita adores Hijikata very much and often tries to tease him.
These are the images of Shiba-Shinsengumi rather than them of a
historical fact.
That Okita appeared as a beautiful young man, "Moeyo Ken" of Shiba
novel was the very first.




Since a Taiga drama differs from Shinsengumi of a historical fact,
there are people who say bad.
However, their opinion is often carried out based on Shiba-
Shinsengumi. lol
It is a strange talk. Both of these are fictions.
Distinction of the fact and a fiction is difficult for the history
of Shinsengumi.
Or there are people who assert the opinion by the partial belief
among researchers.
And it exists in the network, without verifying it.

I think that the person who introduced the Shinsengumi research
document to Sec is probably worried about it.
The authors of books whom he introduced are people who have a track
record not as a Shinsengumi researcher but as a Bakumatsu historian.

momoiro-usagi