Re: NHK Drama Episode 26 Question

Hey all, this is a question to those who have seen episode 26. And to anyone who knows a lot about Shinsengumi history. This has been on my mind ever since I saw the ep.

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

The whole incident with the Osaka official Uchiyama Hikojiro is shown in this episode. Now my question is, did this really happen in history? I'm wondering since I never heard anything about this before. If anyone can answer this it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

~Okita

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I didn't see this episode but Saitou and Hijikata did travel to Osaka to recruit
new members. That is what I understand from Shinsengumi history (shrugs).

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Mesina" wrote:
> Hey all, this is a question to those who have seen episode 26. And to
anyone who knows a lot about Shinsengumi history. This has been on my
mind ever since I saw the ep.
>
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
>
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
>
> The whole incident with the Osaka official Uchiyama Hikojiro is shown in
this episode. Now my question is, did this really happen in history? I'm
wondering since I never heard anything about this before. If anyone can
answer this it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!
>
> ~Okita
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I wonder if our Japanese board members might know...

Tama, Momoiro-usagi and ideas? ^_^

~Okita

----- Original Message -----
From: secretary
To: SHQ@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 1:27 PM
Subject: [SHQ] Re: NHK Drama Episode 26 Question


I didn't see this episode but Saitou and Hijikata did travel to Osaka to recruit
new members. That is what I understand from Shinsengumi history (shrugs).

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Mesina" wrote:
> Hey all, this is a question to those who have seen episode 26. And to
anyone who knows a lot about Shinsengumi history. This has been on my
mind ever since I saw the ep.
>
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
>
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
>
> The whole incident with the Osaka official Uchiyama Hikojiro is shown in
this episode. Now my question is, did this really happen in history? I'm
wondering since I never heard anything about this before. If anyone can
answer this it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!
>
> ~Okita
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]










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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Mesina" wrote:

> Hey all, this is a question to those who have seen episode 26. And

to anyone who knows a lot about Shinsengumi history. This has been
on my mind ever since I saw the ep.

>
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
>
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
>
> The whole incident with the Osaka official Uchiyama Hikojiro is

shown in this episode. Now my question is, did this really happen in
history? I'm wondering since I never heard anything about this
before. If anyone can answer this it would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance!

>
> ~Okita

I do not know so in detail about this episode.
I know this episode in fragments.
It is these things that I know.

Uchiyama Hikojirou was actually assassinated.
About a criminal, although there are various opinions, it is
correctly unknown.
Since Uchiyama performed the bribe or operated the market price of
rice, he was disliked by people of a town as a bad government
official.
(Although I do not know whether this is a true talk, it is a fact
that he was considered to be a bad government official by people.
After he was assassinated, people did not actually sympathize with
him.)
It is Nishimura Kanefumi's "Shinsengumi-shimatsuki", and Nagakura
Shinpachi's "Shinsengumi-tenmatsuki" which are being written that
Shinsengumi was criminal.
However, these two works are not exact as data.
The author of "Shinsengumi-shimatsuki" had prejudice in Shinsengumi
very much.
The journalist of an Otaru newspaper wrote "Shinsengumi-tenmatsuki"
based on Nagakura's discourse.
As for them, both have inconsistency in the contents of description.
(Incidentally, this episode does not appear
in "Roushibunkyuhoukokukiji" with more high data value with
Nagakura's work.)
There are researchers who acknowledge a Shinsengumi criminal theory.
And there are researchers who deny it.

Since this book released recently is written in detail about this
incident, it explains referring to this.

http://www.amazon.co.jp/exec/obidos/ASIN/4087747131/qid%
3D1094474771/249-9385455-7181936

"Shinsengumi no enkei" Noguchi Takehiko work
Incidentally this book has denied the Shinsengumi criminal theory.

It is "Shinsengumi-shimatsuki" in Meiji 22 (A.D.1889) that the
Shinsengumi criminal theory was announced at the very beginning.
"Shinsengumi-shimatsuki" is writing that Uchiyama blamed Kondou with
the overbearing attitude, when Kondou reported sumo wrestling
wrestler's incident.
(Uchiyama disliked Shinsengumi which borrows money from the
merchants of Osaka forcibly.)
Kondou who received the very severe insult got angry, and made
subordinates investigate Uchiyama's thing.
When it turned out that he is a bad government official, Kondo
planned his assassination.
Four persons, Okita, Nagakura, Harada, and Inoue, are criminals who
performed it.
This book serves as the only basis of a Shinsengumi criminal theory.
However, it is very dangerous to trust this.
Although I had written to the board before, Nishimura Kanefumi, the
author of this book, was working for Nishi-Honoganji.
Although Nishi-Honoganji provided Shinsengumi with the place, it was
the ally of Chosyu in fact.
Nishimura had a severe prejudice to Shinsengumi.
After Okita killed Uchiyama, Uchiyama's head was cut and it was
thrust into the bamboo...."Shinsengumi-shimatsuki" is written such.
However, there is no such fact.
Nishimura wrote that Kondou and Hijikata were illiterate barbarians.
It is dangerous to trust it, although not all of the contents of
this book are a lie.
Incidentally, it has become clear that the place where Kondou
reported sumo wrestling wrestlers' incident was Higashimachi-
Bugyousyo (East town-Bugyousyo).
Uchiyama was the government official of Nishimachi-Bugyousyo (West
town-Bugyousyo).
Kondou and Uchiyama cannot confront in this incident.

Although "Shinsengumi-tenmatsuki" is called Nagakura Shinpachi's
work, the fact is the book edited based on the report serialized by
the Otaru newspaper.
Many portions considered to be the Otaru newspaper reporter's
fiction exist.
This book is writing that Uchiyama operated the market price of rice
in cooperation with Chosyu.
Uchiyama is the government official of the pure government.
He does not need to conspire with Chosyu.
This book makes criminals Kondo, Hijikata, Okita, Nagakura, Harada,
Inoue, and Shimada.
This book is writing that Kondo cut Uchiyama first.
However, this book has the too careless facts.
It was that Uchiyama was assassinated on May 20 Genji 1 (A.D.1864).
However, this book is writing that incident, after Ito Kashitarou
was assassinated (A.D.1867).

About this mistake, Kikuchi Akira of a researcher is writing the
interesting opinion.
As for his opinion, although Nagakura talked about another incident
which arose around 1867, the newspaper reporter has mistaken with
Uchiyama's assassination talk.
Although the fact is not known, this book (Shinsengumi-tenmatsuki)
cannot be used as data of the Uchiyama assassination.

Or it is written in the diary of Shimada Kai that the injustice of
the government official of Osaka was investigated.
The researchers of Shinsengumi criminal theory say that this is
about Uchiyama.
(Mr. Noguchi is writing that 60 government officials were in Osaka
Bugyousyo at the time.
I think that it is difficult to affirm that it is Uchiyama's thing.
And isn't it weak as a reason for assassinating Uchiyama?)

As for Nagakura Shinpachi's work"Roushibunkyuhoukokukiji", the talk
of the Uchiyama assassination is not written.
Nagakura wrote this book in early stages of Meiji Era.
Naturally, data value is high.
However, this book was written in order to restore the honor of
Shinsengumi.
Therefore, the inconvenient fact of Shinsengumi may not be written.
(The researchers of Shinsengumi criminal theory emphasize it.
In fact, this book is not written at all about the death of
Yamanami.)

Uchiyama's assassination was on May 20, A.D. 1864.
There is a letter which Kondou addressed to the acquaintance on the
same day.
In the letter, he is sad about the situation of Shinsengumi.
At the time, Shinsengumi could not play an active part and Kondou
considered even the dismissal.
The morale of Shinsengumi was falling very much.
Mr. Noguchi has regarded the possibility of an upper government
official's assassination plan as questionable in such a situation.
It is not a best policy that they go to Osaka and cause trouble at
the time of such a critical situation.

(Incidentally, this letter has reported that homosexuality is in
prevalence within Shinsengumi.)^^;;;


SPOILER?











As for the episode of the Uchiyama assassination, being adopted in a
drama is very uncommon.
Although some reasons are considered, I think that it is the big
cause that is not suitable in the tale which made Shinsengumi the
hero.
Although Uchiyama is a bad man, the story that the powerless old man
was killed by young men is unjustifiable.
The fiction differs from the historical fact.
There is much episode which is not adopted as a drama or a novel
with the fact of being written to the research document.
Many those episode is used for a Taiga drama.

In the drama, I looked at Tonouchi Yoshio for the first time.
(He is the member of Roushigumi at the time of the beginning which
remained in Kyoto together with Kondou and others.
In the Taiga drama, he was considered to be a betrayer and was
assassinated by Serizawa.)
Although his name is often seen with a research document, it is
seldom seen in the fiction world.
In fact, almost all fictions write that only Serizawa group and
Kondou group remained to Kyoto.
Tonouchi group does not exist from the beginning in many cases.
They destroyed completely by conspiracy of Serizawa group and Kondou
group.
Tonouchi may have been assassinated by Kondou in fact.
There is a letter by which Kondou boasted of Tonouchi assassination.
Tonouchi is not a bad man and this incident arose in the result of a
struggle for power.
Do you think that you will adopt such episode supposing you write
the novel which made Shinsengumi the hero?
(I think that it is the fun of this Taiga drama to have adopted it
well.)

momoiro-usagi

That was a lot of good info. Thank you so much for it Momoiro-usagi!

~Okita

----- Original Message -----
From: momomanjyuu2004
To: SHQ@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 9:34 AM
Subject: [SHQ] Re: NHK Drama Episode 26 Question


--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Mesina" wrote:
> Hey all, this is a question to those who have seen episode 26. And
to anyone who knows a lot about Shinsengumi history. This has been
on my mind ever since I saw the ep.
>
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
>
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
>
> The whole incident with the Osaka official Uchiyama Hikojiro is
shown in this episode. Now my question is, did this really happen in
history? I'm wondering since I never heard anything about this
before. If anyone can answer this it would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance!
>
> ~Okita


I do not know so in detail about this episode.
I know this episode in fragments.
It is these things that I know.

Uchiyama Hikojirou was actually assassinated.
About a criminal, although there are various opinions, it is
correctly unknown.
Since Uchiyama performed the bribe or operated the market price of
rice, he was disliked by people of a town as a bad government
official.
(Although I do not know whether this is a true talk, it is a fact
that he was considered to be a bad government official by people.
After he was assassinated, people did not actually sympathize with
him.)
It is Nishimura Kanefumi's "Shinsengumi-shimatsuki", and Nagakura
Shinpachi's "Shinsengumi-tenmatsuki" which are being written that
Shinsengumi was criminal.
However, these two works are not exact as data.
The author of "Shinsengumi-shimatsuki" had prejudice in Shinsengumi
very much.
The journalist of an Otaru newspaper wrote "Shinsengumi-tenmatsuki"
based on Nagakura's discourse.
As for them, both have inconsistency in the contents of description.
(Incidentally, this episode does not appear
in "Roushibunkyuhoukokukiji" with more high data value with
Nagakura's work.)
There are researchers who acknowledge a Shinsengumi criminal theory.
And there are researchers who deny it.

Since this book released recently is written in detail about this
incident, it explains referring to this.

http://www.amazon.co.jp/exec/obidos/ASIN/4087747131/qid%
3D1094474771/249-9385455-7181936

"Shinsengumi no enkei" Noguchi Takehiko work
Incidentally this book has denied the Shinsengumi criminal theory.

It is "Shinsengumi-shimatsuki" in Meiji 22 (A.D.1889) that the
Shinsengumi criminal theory was announced at the very beginning.
"Shinsengumi-shimatsuki" is writing that Uchiyama blamed Kondou with
the overbearing attitude, when Kondou reported sumo wrestling
wrestler's incident.
(Uchiyama disliked Shinsengumi which borrows money from the
merchants of Osaka forcibly.)
Kondou who received the very severe insult got angry, and made
subordinates investigate Uchiyama's thing.
When it turned out that he is a bad government official, Kondo
planned his assassination.
Four persons, Okita, Nagakura, Harada, and Inoue, are criminals who
performed it.
This book serves as the only basis of a Shinsengumi criminal theory.
However, it is very dangerous to trust this.
Although I had written to the board before, Nishimura Kanefumi, the
author of this book, was working for Nishi-Honoganji.
Although Nishi-Honoganji provided Shinsengumi with the place, it was
the ally of Chosyu in fact.
Nishimura had a severe prejudice to Shinsengumi.
After Okita killed Uchiyama, Uchiyama's head was cut and it was
thrust into the bamboo...."Shinsengumi-shimatsuki" is written such.
However, there is no such fact.
Nishimura wrote that Kondou and Hijikata were illiterate barbarians.
It is dangerous to trust it, although not all of the contents of
this book are a lie.
Incidentally, it has become clear that the place where Kondou
reported sumo wrestling wrestlers' incident was Higashimachi-
Bugyousyo (East town-Bugyousyo).
Uchiyama was the government official of Nishimachi-Bugyousyo (West
town-Bugyousyo).
Kondou and Uchiyama cannot confront in this incident.

Although "Shinsengumi-tenmatsuki" is called Nagakura Shinpachi's
work, the fact is the book edited based on the report serialized by
the Otaru newspaper.
Many portions considered to be the Otaru newspaper reporter's
fiction exist.
This book is writing that Uchiyama operated the market price of rice
in cooperation with Chosyu.
Uchiyama is the government official of the pure government.
He does not need to conspire with Chosyu.
This book makes criminals Kondo, Hijikata, Okita, Nagakura, Harada,
Inoue, and Shimada.
This book is writing that Kondo cut Uchiyama first.
However, this book has the too careless facts.
It was that Uchiyama was assassinated on May 20 Genji 1 (A.D.1864).
However, this book is writing that incident, after Ito Kashitarou
was assassinated (A.D.1867).

About this mistake, Kikuchi Akira of a researcher is writing the
interesting opinion.
As for his opinion, although Nagakura talked about another incident
which arose around 1867, the newspaper reporter has mistaken with
Uchiyama's assassination talk.
Although the fact is not known, this book (Shinsengumi-tenmatsuki)
cannot be used as data of the Uchiyama assassination.

Or it is written in the diary of Shimada Kai that the injustice of
the government official of Osaka was investigated.
The researchers of Shinsengumi criminal theory say that this is
about Uchiyama.
(Mr. Noguchi is writing that 60 government officials were in Osaka
Bugyousyo at the time.
I think that it is difficult to affirm that it is Uchiyama's thing.
And isn't it weak as a reason for assassinating Uchiyama?)

As for Nagakura Shinpachi's work"Roushibunkyuhoukokukiji", the talk
of the Uchiyama assassination is not written.
Nagakura wrote this book in early stages of Meiji Era.
Naturally, data value is high.
However, this book was written in order to restore the honor of
Shinsengumi.
Therefore, the inconvenient fact of Shinsengumi may not be written.
(The researchers of Shinsengumi criminal theory emphasize it.
In fact, this book is not written at all about the death of
Yamanami.)

Uchiyama's assassination was on May 20, A.D. 1864.
There is a letter which Kondou addressed to the acquaintance on the
same day.
In the letter, he is sad about the situation of Shinsengumi.
At the time, Shinsengumi could not play an active part and Kondou
considered even the dismissal.
The morale of Shinsengumi was falling very much.
Mr. Noguchi has regarded the possibility of an upper government
official's assassination plan as questionable in such a situation.
It is not a best policy that they go to Osaka and cause trouble at
the time of such a critical situation.

(Incidentally, this letter has reported that homosexuality is in
prevalence within Shinsengumi.)^^;;;


SPOILER?











As for the episode of the Uchiyama assassination, being adopted in a
drama is very uncommon.
Although some reasons are considered, I think that it is the big
cause that is not suitable in the tale which made Shinsengumi the
hero.
Although Uchiyama is a bad man, the story that the powerless old man
was killed by young men is unjustifiable.
The fiction differs from the historical fact.
There is much episode which is not adopted as a drama or a novel
with the fact of being written to the research document.
Many those episode is used for a Taiga drama.

In the drama, I looked at Tonouchi Yoshio for the first time.
(He is the member of Roushigumi at the time of the beginning which
remained in Kyoto together with Kondou and others.
In the Taiga drama, he was considered to be a betrayer and was
assassinated by Serizawa.)
Although his name is often seen with a research document, it is
seldom seen in the fiction world.
In fact, almost all fictions write that only Serizawa group and
Kondou group remained to Kyoto.
Tonouchi group does not exist from the beginning in many cases.
They destroyed completely by conspiracy of Serizawa group and Kondou
group.
Tonouchi may have been assassinated by Kondou in fact.
There is a letter by which Kondou boasted of Tonouchi assassination.
Tonouchi is not a bad man and this incident arose in the result of a
struggle for power.
Do you think that you will adopt such episode supposing you write
the novel which made Shinsengumi the hero?
(I think that it is the fun of this Taiga drama to have adopted it
well.)

momoiro-usagi











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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]