Hi

Hi. My name is Bruno Ern and I am a new member from this group. I am 17 and I'm from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.
I am member since 3rd August, but is the first time I write.

--> I'm writing in order to know if there is any member from Brazil and to ask if Kondo Isami and Choshuu samurais like Katsura Kogoro and Sakamoto Ryoma were friends, as it is shown on Shinsengumi taiga drama. Sorry my poor english =/

Bruno


---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

No. But for film, it makes for interesting "Forrest Gump" moments
to fill in the space between actual events. The usual "times that
tore apart friends" routine.

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, Bruno Strovsky wrote:
> Hi. My name is Bruno Ern and I am a new member from this group.
I am 17 and I'm from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.
> I am member since 3rd August, but is the first time I write.
>
> --> I'm writing in order to know if there is any member from
Brazil and to ask if Kondo Isami and Choshuu samurais like Katsura
Kogoro and Sakamoto Ryoma were friends, as it is shown on
Shinsengumi taiga drama. Sorry my poor english =/
>
> Bruno
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - navegue de graça com conexão de qualidade!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, Bruno Strovsky wrote:

> Hi. My name is Bruno Ern and I am a new member from this group. I

am 17 and I'm from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.

> I am member since 3rd August, but is the first time I write.
>
> --> I'm writing in order to know if there is any member from

Brazil and to ask if Kondo Isami and Choshuu samurais like Katsura
Kogoro and Sakamoto Ryoma were friends, as it is shown on Shinsengumi
taiga drama. Sorry my poor english =/

>
> Bruno
>

Hello Bruno! Welcome to the group. Sorry it's a bit empty right now.
Most of the members I believe are busy with R/L, projects and the new
Shinsengumi RPG...

I'm sure one of the more knowledgeable people here can answer your
question, so stick around. I won't dare answer because I'm not in
depth with history as they are.

Oh while you're at it, why not join in on the fun of RPG? Check it
out here: http://www.livejournal.com/community/miburo_lair/

~wounds

I'd definitely have to agree that the friendships shown in the NHK drama are
false. There's an account of a first meeting (and probably the last too)
between Hijikata and Sakamoto. Basically Hijikata, who happened to be out with one
of the patrols, stopped him and wanted to know who he was. Sakamoto happened
to be working for a Bakufu official at the time, so he had to let him go. This
was apparently before the Shinsengumi became famous in Kyoto. Whether this
story has any more truth to it than the TV miniseries I have no idea.

Glad to have you with us Bruno!

-MissBehavin


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, Bruno Strovsky wrote:

> Hi. My name is Bruno Ern and I am a new member from this group.

I am 17 and I'm from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.

> I am member since 3rd August, but is the first time I write.
>
> --> I'm writing in order to know if there is any member from

Brazil and to ask if Kondo Isami and Choshuu samurais like Katsura
Kogoro and Sakamoto Ryoma were friends, as it is shown on
Shinsengumi taiga drama. Sorry my poor english =/

>
> Bruno

Hello, Bruno-san.
I am momoiro-usagi.
I am also poor English.
Please allow, even if I write strange English.

The setup from which Kondou, Sakamoto, and Katsura became friends is
the fiction of Taiga drama.
However, it is the fiction which may be a true story.
When they live in Edo, there is no information that they were
friends.
But there is also no information that they were not friends.
When the dramatist of a drama proposed this setup, the researchers
who do history historical investigation were perplexed.
It was a setup which is likely to be severely criticized by the
serious Shinsengumi fan.
However, they confirmed the contents of the scenario and issued O.K.
To be sure, this is a fiction.
However, Kondou, Sakamoto, and Katsura were in Edo rightly as a
historical fact in 1854 set as the 1st episode.
There is no proof that they were not friends.
They are not unable for them to meet in somewhere in Edo city, and
to become friends.
(But people of 1,500,000 lived in Edo city of Bakumatsu.
I think that it is quite difficult for them to meet in it.)^^;;;
This Taiga drama is the fiction of the boundary which is not
impossible.

Incidentally, as for a setup of an acquaintance of Katsura and
Kondou, Taiga drama is not the first.
I regard it as "Moeyo Ken" of Shiba Ryotarou having been the
beginning.
(This is a novel and, of course, a fiction.)
When a Dojyo challenger comes to Shieikan, Katsura is called in
order to play a game in a substitute.
In fact, when the Dojyo challenger came to Shieikan, Kondou called
strong sword man from other neighboring Dojyoes, and had him do an
acting game.
It is not known whether Katsura came to Shieikan.
However, Katsura was a student's representation in big Dojyo called
Renpeikan.

momoiro-usagi

This is very poor reasoning. An argument like this is like saying
Kondo and the Shogun had slumber parties as children because there's
no documentation saying they weren't friends, or that there weren't
any slumber parties in Japan, yet both were in Edo during that time.

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "momomanjyuu2004"
wrote:

> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, Bruno Strovsky wrote:
> > Hi. My name is Bruno Ern and I am a new member from this

group.

> I am 17 and I'm from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.
> > I am member since 3rd August, but is the first time I write.
> >
> > --> I'm writing in order to know if there is any member from
> Brazil and to ask if Kondo Isami and Choshuu samurais like Katsura
> Kogoro and Sakamoto Ryoma were friends, as it is shown on
> Shinsengumi taiga drama. Sorry my poor english =/
> >
> > Bruno
>
> Hello, Bruno-san.
> I am momoiro-usagi.
> I am also poor English.
> Please allow, even if I write strange English.
>
> The setup from which Kondou, Sakamoto, and Katsura became friends

is

> the fiction of Taiga drama.
> However, it is the fiction which may be a true story.
> When they live in Edo, there is no information that they were
> friends.
> But there is also no information that they were not friends.
> When the dramatist of a drama proposed this setup, the researchers
> who do history historical investigation were perplexed.
> It was a setup which is likely to be severely criticized by the
> serious Shinsengumi fan.
> However, they confirmed the contents of the scenario and issued

O.K.

> To be sure, this is a fiction.
> However, Kondou, Sakamoto, and Katsura were in Edo rightly as a
> historical fact in 1854 set as the 1st episode.
> There is no proof that they were not friends.
> They are not unable for them to meet in somewhere in Edo city, and
> to become friends.
> (But people of 1,500,000 lived in Edo city of Bakumatsu.
> I think that it is quite difficult for them to meet in it.)^^;;;
> This Taiga drama is the fiction of the boundary which is not
> impossible.
>
> Incidentally, as for a setup of an acquaintance of Katsura and
> Kondou, Taiga drama is not the first.
> I regard it as "Moeyo Ken" of Shiba Ryotarou having been the
> beginning.
> (This is a novel and, of course, a fiction.)
> When a Dojyo challenger comes to Shieikan, Katsura is called in
> order to play a game in a substitute.
> In fact, when the Dojyo challenger came to Shieikan, Kondou called
> strong sword man from other neighboring Dojyoes, and had him do an
> acting game.
> It is not known whether Katsura came to Shieikan.
> However, Katsura was a student's representation in big Dojyo

called

> Renpeikan.
>
> momoiro-usagi

Alan wrote:

>This is very poor reasoning. An argument like this is like saying
>Kondo and the Shogun had slumber parties as children because there's
>no documentation saying they weren't friends, or that there weren't
>any slumber parties in Japan, yet both were in Edo during that time.
>
>

I don't think it' s poor reasoning at all. While Kondou wouldn't have
been in the same "social circle" as the Shogun it's quite in the realm
of possibility that he knew or knew of other prominent political
activists/figures.

I say this because I have met quite a number of "important people" in
the writing world through various conferences and such. No, we're not
best buddies and for the most part I don't talk to many of these folks
on a regular basis but the thing we share in common does bring us
together as friends and companions as many times as we have reason and
the resources to gather.

So I think it's quite possible for some of these people to have run in
the same circles at times.

--
Barbara Sheridan
http://www.barbarasheridan.net

I agree with Barb on this one. As an example from the times, Sagara Souzou. The politics of the times and his philosophy brought him into association with many who would become future Shinsengumi members and rivals within the Ishin Shishi... men who ended up becoming his enemies. Truth is often stranger than fiction.

phil

BarbaraSheridan <bsher213@...> wrote:


Alan wrote:

>This is very poor reasoning. An argument like this is like saying
>Kondo and the Shogun had slumber parties as children because there's
>no documentation saying they weren't friends, or that there weren't
>any slumber parties in Japan, yet both were in Edo during that time.
>
>

I don't think it' s poor reasoning at all. While Kondou wouldn't have
been in the same "social circle" as the Shogun it's quite in the realm
of possibility that he knew or knew of other prominent political
activists/figures.

I say this because I have met quite a number of "important people" in
the writing world through various conferences and such. No, we're not
best buddies and for the most part I don't talk to many of these folks
on a regular basis but the thing we share in common does bring us
together as friends and companions as many times as we have reason and
the resources to gather.

So I think it's quite possible for some of these people to have run in
the same circles at times.

--
Barbara Sheridan
http://www.barbarasheridan.net











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Asunto: Re: [SHQ] Re: Hi


Hi Alan!

I'm a history freak, and so are other two friends of mine with whom I usually comment this taiga. The two of them have lived extensive periods in Japan, and actually one of them is still actually living there after having just finished her thesis, involving the Meiji period, precisely.

Having said this, you can imagine that we were SLIGHTY irked at the liberality shown by the writers of the drama concerning the 'everybody had met everybody and had been pals just before the actual revolution'. We had two choices: stopping watching it altogether, or make abstraction of the said historical horrors.

We chose the second path. You see, the reasoning behind it is the same why we enjoy fanfiction. It's fiction, playing with actual history.
Battousai never existed, right? Soujirou never killed Okubo, or am I wrong?
But even then, we can enjoy Watsuki's work. At least, I know I do. They key in this is knowing the actual facts, and separating them from fiction. I know that due the massive impact the media have over viewers, the inaccurate handling of the facts have a repercussion in how they perceive the real facts later. An example: take The Alamo. It's historically more accurate than the J. Wayne version. However, it was its downfall. People hated it because of the darker aspects of the real history.
This is not happening in Japan though, with this drama. In fact, the ratings are lower than other samurai dramas of similar length, just because of these inaccuracies.

Obviously, outside Japan, it can affect how viewers perceive the unfolding of the real events, but I believe that even the most naive viewer would shake his/her head knowing that it's kind of impossible that all the main characters knew each other previously. maybe they KNEW each other swordsman's reputation, the name of their dojos, have crossed in challenges, etc. But certainly they didn't foster friendships. JMO.

I think I understand why they (the writers) choose this path. Both parties wanted essentially the same: to be independent , to avoid the horrors of Western dominance in neighboring China, and to become a strong, developed nation. The means and path to follow were what they clashed. After all, the bearers of the 'expel the foreigners, revere the Emperor' were ironically those who opened the doors to the contact with the West. But what their tactics allowed Japan to do it more or less in its own terms. Trying to keep Japan absolutely closed to the world would have prompted a reaction very similar to what China suffered during and after the Opium Wars. I think the Shogunate had this in mind during the turbulent times that lead to the Bakumatsu, and that's why they didn't act with the haste required by the Chosuu party. And obviously, there was a social/cultural decadence that required a social reform too. If you watch the drama, you'll see that they hint at least twice that both
parties had common points and ideas. Personally, I think the scenario where the members of both parties are shown socializing is a symbolism, a way to make people understand that both wanted a better, stronger and independent Japan. Also, you'll see the social barriers and tenets that time required to be changed. Now, to understand this, I think it's necessary to grasp a basic knowledge of the actual history...

My advice is to take it all with a grain of salt (a BIG one), and do serious research. The fabulous recourses in this ML and the associated sites are a good start. Newbies can consult the list or recommended readings in this ML to have a wider vision. Consider the drama as a big, big and expensive fanfic, showing chapters every week.

Now, Alan, if you can't enjoy it like this, it would be better to stop watching it ASAP, because you'll surely find yourself very frustrated, as I was in the beginning.... JMO, by the way.

See you all!
Firuze.


-------Mensaje original-------

De: SHQ@yahoogroups.com
Fecha: 08/28/04 19:52:58
Para: SHQ@yahoogroups.com
Asunto: [SHQ] Re: Hi


This is very poor reasoning. An argument like this is like saying
Kondo and the Shogun had slumber parties as children because there's
no documentation saying they weren't friends, or that there weren't
any slumber parties in Japan, yet both were in Edo during that time.

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "momomanjyuu2004"
wrote:

> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, Bruno Strovsky wrote:
> > Hi. My name is Bruno Ern and I am a new member from this

group.

> I am 17 and I'm from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.
> > I am member since 3rd August, but is the first time I write.
> >
> > --> I'm writing in order to know if there is any member from
> Brazil and to ask if Kondo Isami and Choshuu samurais like Katsura
> Kogoro and Sakamoto Ryoma were friends, as it is shown on
> Shinsengumi taiga drama. Sorry my poor english =/
> >
> > Bruno
>
> Hello, Bruno-san.
> I am momoiro-usagi.
> I am also poor English.
> Please allow, even if I write strange English.
>
> The setup from which Kondou, Sakamoto, and Katsura became friends

is

> the fiction of Taiga drama.
> However, it is the fiction which may be a true story.
> When they live in Edo, there is no information that they were
> friends.
> But there is also no information that they were not friends.
> When the dramatist of a drama proposed this setup, the researchers
> who do history historical investigation were perplexed.
> It was a setup which is likely to be severely criticized by the
> serious Shinsengumi fan.
> However, they confirmed the contents of the scenario and issued

O.K.

> To be sure, this is a fiction.
> However, Kondou, Sakamoto, and Katsura were in Edo rightly as a
> historical fact in 1854 set as the 1st episode.
> There is no proof that they were not friends.
> They are not unable for them to meet in somewhere in Edo city, and
> to become friends.
> (But people of 1,500,000 lived in Edo city of Bakumatsu.
> I think that it is quite difficult for them to meet in it.)^^;;;
> This Taiga drama is the fiction of the boundary which is not
> impossible.
>
> Incidentally, as for a setup of an acquaintance of Katsura and
> Kondou, Taiga drama is not the first.
> I regard it as "Moeyo Ken" of Shiba Ryotarou having been the
> beginning.
> (This is a novel and, of course, a fiction.)
> When a Dojyo challenger comes to Shieikan, Katsura is called in
> order to play a game in a substitute.
> In fact, when the Dojyo challenger came to Shieikan, Kondou called
> strong sword man from other neighboring Dojyoes, and had him do an
> acting game.
> It is not known whether Katsura came to Shieikan.
> However, Katsura was a student's representation in big Dojyo

called

> Renpeikan.
>
> momoiro-usagi

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Alan, considering how little info there is available to the majority of us on
the ML, I tend to think that disregarding the opinon of someone who is
actually from Japan and has access to a ton of resources on the Shinsengumi is even
poorer reasoning. I for one am extremely grateful to Momoiro-usagi for any
insight into the group she can give us.

About the researchers that she refers to. We've heard of these people from
various sources and they are very dedicated to the true history of the
Shinsengumi. Some of them have spent nearly their entire lives in this pursuit. So if
these people looked at what the drama writers were doing and they couldn't
easily dismiss the notion that Kondo, Katsura, and Sakamoto might have met at
some point while in Edo, then neither should we.

Considering all of the facts, I have to go along with what Momoiro-usagi has
said: It is not likely that they knew each other, but it is not impossible
either.


-MissBehavin


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

And by her own admission, in that ton of resources, there is nothing
at all to even suggest those three were friends or even knew each
other. The problem is that what was suggested was her unsupported
opinion. This was not insight; it was fantasy. It doesn't matter
if she lives in Japan. Given the way it was reached, any person in
the States could have made this suggestion with equal authority. It
was a suggestion derived from nothing; an answer looking for a
question.

This is similar to how Noam Chomsky wrote a book talking about how
America always goes to war because the "white male" feels inferior
to all the other races in sports, academics, etc. He was challenged
on it and his argument was "can you disprove it?"

Was there the slimmest possibility they were friends? Sure. But
there was also the slimmest possibility that Okita gained his
prodigious sword-fighting skills from being taught by aliens. No
evidence against that either. That's why this type of reasoning is
poor. Anything can be proven possible eventually if you accept
information blindly.

I don't have a problem with liberties taken in historic
entertainment as long as there is a purpose. In fact, it's
expected. But the friendship twist they used has had no value at
all to the show. It served no purpose to the plot. It was more
like they used it to fill some time. And yeah, I've stopped
watching it as of Episode 28, the Ikeda-ya one. This was really
hyped, but in the end was disappointing. It's not so much the
historical stuff, but almost every aspect of the show up to now
seems to have been poorly done. I'm guessing that's why the ratings
are low. Lack of quality.

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, Warg3791@a... wrote:
> Alan, considering how little info there is available to the
majority of us on
> the ML, I tend to think that disregarding the opinon of someone
who is
> actually from Japan and has access to a ton of resources on the
Shinsengumi is even
> poorer reasoning. I for one am extremely grateful to Momoiro-
usagi for any
> insight into the group she can give us.
>
> About the researchers that she refers to. We've heard of these
people from
> various sources and they are very dedicated to the true history of
the
> Shinsengumi. Some of them have spent nearly their entire lives in
this pursuit. So if
> these people looked at what the drama writers were doing and they
couldn't
> easily dismiss the notion that Kondo, Katsura, and Sakamoto might
have met at
> some point while in Edo, then neither should we.
>
> Considering all of the facts, I have to go along with what Momoiro-
usagi has
> said: It is not likely that they knew each other, but it is not
impossible
> either.
>
>
> -MissBehavin
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Oooookay... Let's be clear, you are entitled to your opinions Alan, but no need to be rude with other members, got it?

Yes, being a Japanese doesn't make one automatically into an authority. Yet I then to think Japanese people know their own story SLIGTHLY better than any average American would, and unless you are a scholar in the field, and we are not aware about it, I take you are an average American. So, your attitude it's beyond rude and quite arrogant to me.

Let's no wander in other topics Alan. Because if we do, I'll be forced to give you a few lessons in history myself. You see, I find that Noam Chomsky is QUITE right. But maybe it's just that I'm a dark skinned Latin American. Oh, and that I'm incidentally a Muslim too. So, you can guess I have quite a bit to say about the white male and its inferiority complex myself.
Oh, who knows? Maybe I think this way just because I recall the fact that Latin America endured 124 invasions by American forces since 1824 to 1994... ( included the nice interventions of Kissinger endorsing and encouraging torture in the area). Or who knows? Maybe is the nice discussion around Kippling's The White Man's Burden after the Sates invasion of Philippines (1899) and the American-Spanish war... Mark Twain opinions are very entertaining. See? I'm REALLY an history freak, you know....

Don't like NHK drama? Ok, you are in your right. You stopped to watch it? Wonderful, good for you. Now, RESPECT those of us who enjoy it. By now we all are aware you hate it. But don't expect everyone share your views.

Please, stay polite, the ML is nice as it is.
Firuze

-------Mensaje original-------

De: SHQ@yahoogroups.com
Fecha: 08/28/04 23:11:36
Para: SHQ@yahoogroups.com
Asunto: [SHQ] Re: Hi


And by her own admission, in that ton of resources, there is nothing
at all to even suggest those three were friends or even knew each
other. The problem is that what was suggested was her unsupported
opinion. This was not insight; it was fantasy. It doesn't matter
if she lives in Japan. Given the way it was reached, any person in
the States could have made this suggestion with equal authority. It
was a suggestion derived from nothing; an answer looking for a
question.

This is similar to how Noam Chomsky wrote a book talking about how
America always goes to war because the "white male" feels inferior
to all the other races in sports, academics, etc. He was challenged
on it and his argument was "can you disprove it?"

Was there the slimmest possibility they were friends? Sure. But
there was also the slimmest possibility that Okita gained his
prodigious sword-fighting skills from being taught by aliens. No
evidence against that either. That's why this type of reasoning is
poor. Anything can be proven possible eventually if you accept
information blindly.

I don't have a problem with liberties taken in historic
entertainment as long as there is a purpose. In fact, it's
expected. But the friendship twist they used has had no value at
all to the show. It served no purpose to the plot. It was more
like they used it to fill some time. And yeah, I've stopped
watching it as of Episode 28, the Ikeda-ya one. This was really
hyped, but in the end was disappointing. It's not so much the
historical stuff, but almost every aspect of the show up to now
seems to have been poorly done. I'm guessing that's why the ratings
are low. Lack of quality.

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, Warg3791@a... wrote:
> Alan, considering how little info there is available to the
majority of us on
> the ML, I tend to think that disregarding the opinon of someone
who is
> actually from Japan and has access to a ton of resources on the
Shinsengumi is even
> poorer reasoning. I for one am extremely grateful to Momoiro-
usagi for any
> insight into the group she can give us.
>
> About the researchers that she refers to. We've heard of these
people from
> various sources and they are very dedicated to the true history of
the
> Shinsengumi. Some of them have spent nearly their entire lives in
this pursuit. So if
> these people looked at what the drama writers were doing and they
couldn't
> easily dismiss the notion that Kondo, Katsura, and Sakamoto might
have met at
> some point while in Edo, then neither should we.
>
> Considering all of the facts, I have to go along with what Momoiro-
usagi has
> said: It is not likely that they knew each other, but it is not
impossible
> either.
>
>
> -MissBehavin
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]










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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'd like to say something at this time, having heard this debate.

Being an active scholar of history, specifically Japanese history, in
college, and on a track that will take me further and further into the
academic realm of studying this stuff for a living, I can tell you a few
things:

1. Japanese history, like all history around the world, is a bloody mess.

2. History is written by the victors. Why do you think the Shinsengumi is so
hard to research, much less write serious papers on? I know this for a
fact-- I wanted to write my senior thesis on them, but I've had to "enlarge"
my topic because Shinsengumi is too "small". I'm going to write about Aizu
involvement in the Bakumatsu, which will include Shinsengumi and
Mimawarigumi, but even that will run into some problems, because we still
live in a world where Katsura, Takasugi, and Miyabe are the "great men",
instead of everyone in that era being individually judged for their own
worth.

3. People from a culture generally know their own history the best. Trust me
on this-- if you've learned something from the very very beginning of your
life, and if you've learned it as part of your identity, then you are
DEFINITELY going to know it better than someone who starts learning it from
the outside and later.

4. The best avenue for historical discussion is calm, logical, preferably
friendly, and preferably light-hearted debate. Why scream at each other? Try
to keep things in perspective, and remember-- it's HISTORY. It happened, and
you can't change what happened. However, just because it happened doesn't
mean it's over. History is being rewritten all the time-- this group is
living proof of it.

I'd like to extend my thanks to each and every member of this group for
providing me, probably the only historian in the East Asian Studies major on
my campus, with an avenue for expression. This group is priceless for
me...here, I have all the peers and discussion partners in Japanese history
that I almost never had before.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

--M.

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The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
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Thank you Firuze! I couldn't have said it better myself!

Alan if you would read what she wrote, she only stated that it was -not
impossible-. She never said, -that's how it was-. In fact, she wrote that she
herself found it unlikely. There's a difference between stating something as
absolute fact and asking for people to keep an open mind.

We throw out some very odd ideas around here from time to time. My advice
would be to learn some tolerance. No one is going to appreciate or accept being
blasted for stating their opinion or making a suggestion about some point. I'm
not sure what history groups you may have been a part of in the past that
would accept such things, but that's a huge no-no around here.

Your opinions are just as unsupported, BTW. And MOST movies I've seen where I
knew a great deal about the history take the same liberties. Ever see Young
Guns? They get very basic facts about Billy the Kid and his buddies wrong, but
I still enjoyed the movie. The same is true of nearly every Jack the Ripper
movie I've seen.

I enjoy the Shinsengumi drama. I don't CARE if it's accurate or not.
PeaceMaker Kurogane and Rurouni Kenshin have the same sorts of problems, as Firuze
pointed out. Yet they are mainly responsible for making people aware of the
Shinsengumi in the first place. So they DO serve a purpose in my own humble
opinion.

Again, I want to stress to Momoiro-usagi how grateful I am that she took the
time to offer some insight to the behind-the-scenes stuff of the drama. It was
much appreciated, as was all the other wonderful info you've given us about
the Shinsengumi that we would not know otherwise. THANK YOU!

-MissBehavin


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Alan,
I'm Japanese too, and I know even in Japan there is many opinions against NHK
drama, saying it isn't historical etc...
However the scriptwriter says and knows that it isn't a "historical
documentary" after all, and he tries simply to give an interpretation of the history as
entertainment.
I'm not a specialist of Shinsengumi history but within my knowledge, I find
that the scriptwriter often shows very interesting and original explanations of
some events.

I mention also, Sakamoto and other main Shinsengumi members relationship
appears many times in different media, in films, novels, or manga. It isn't
something scandalous or exeptional at all in Shinsengumi fictional staff.


Tama


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Alan" wrote:

> This is very poor reasoning. An argument like this is like saying
> Kondo and the Shogun had slumber parties as children because

there's

> no documentation saying they weren't friends, or that there

weren't

> any slumber parties in Japan, yet both were in Edo during that

time.

To be sure, my explanation was ambiguous.
I'm sorry supposing it irritates you.
However, do you understand that there is a possible range in
reasoning?
Kondou and Sakamoto may be able to be friends in Edo.
However, Shogun is unable to perform slumber parties with Kondou.

First of all, is slumber parties the event performed where?
Is it Japan? Is it Asia?
It is the event performed in the place which is not the area.
Do you understand the situation of Japan of the time?
Japan of the Edo period had closed the relation with the world as
you knew.
To the beginning of the Edo period, Japan disliked Christianity, and
it broke off the relation with foreign countries.
On the conditions which do not put in Christianity, only the
Netherlands traded with Japan in Europe.
At first, Japan did not import any books.
However, in order to collect information from the time of 8th
Shogun, everything but a Christianity-related book came to be
imported.
Scholars studied those books and got to know Occidental advanced
civilization.
They taught the government the importance of national defense.
However, it was not understood and they were often persecuted as
people who make society uneasy.
Since the Occidental thing was studied, there are people who
received a traitor's dishonor.
Those who imitate Western civilization have risk of being regarded
as a foreign enemy's cooperator.
Surely, there are no data that Japan of the time did not have
slumber parties.
However, is it possible to carry out slumber parties to the time
when the prejudice over the West was severe sure enough?

Incidentally, the official name of Shogun is Seiitaishogun.
This means it as Shogun which expels a foreign enemy.
Shogun is the person who got this class and power from the Emperor
on condition that national defense.
(When the Black Ships came, Shogun was not able to expel them.
The authority of Shogun fell. From the Battle of Sekigahara, Chosyu
and Tosa which had a grudge against Tokugawa begin to move. And
confusion of Bakumatsu took place.)
Then, why does Shogun take the lead in an Occidental event, and
perform it?

Although I say again, there is a possible range in reasoning.
A possibility that a possibility that they were friends, and slumber
parties were performed is not equivalent.


It is the site which I found by chance with the occasion.

http://homepage2.nifty.com/mu-2001/tsu37.htm

It is a Japanese site.
If this information was believed, when Kondou was alive, there was
no slumber parties even in the West.


By the way, are Kondou and Shogun able to be friends?
I think that it is impossible.
Surely, they were in Edo at the same time.
However, class becomes serious hindrance in order for them to become
friends.
As for their classes differing, the action range of them also
differs.
Although Sakamoto may exist in the action range of Kondo, Shogun is
not.
As Kondou cannot frequent Edo castle, Shogun cannot walk along the
city of Edo freely.
Where do they meet?
Moreover, is there any common friend who may connect Shogun with
Kondou?
The Edo period was status society.
A part of privileged people can meet Shogun, and Kondou's friends are
the farmers of Tama, or lower samurais.
Many hierarchies were between these two groups.
I jump over these and cannot think that there are those who connect
two persons.
Even if there is an opportunity for Kondou to meet Shogun, exceeding
such difficulties, Kondo cannot speak to Shogun directly.
The time cannot be associated without considering the other party's
status.
Is there any method of making friends with Shogun?

Sakamoto was the lower samurai of Tosa.
He is the student who came to Edo for the art of fencing.
He walks along Edo freely and he talks to townsmen freely.
Katsura is the elite of Chosyu.
However, he is a free student, while coming to Edo and studying.
They walk along the action range of Kondou freely.
They are Dojo which they are studying, interchange with the students
who came from other domains, and extend a connection.
Or an eager student visits other Dojo positively and spreads
knowledge.
The common friend was actually in Kondou and Katsura.
Watanabe Nobori who was learning by the same Renpeikan as Katsura
was the friend of Katsura.
For aid of a game, he often went to Shieikan.

Surely, there is no proof that Kondou, Sakamoto, and Katsura were
friends.
There are very few possibilities that they were friends.
However, the possibility is not equivalent to a possibility of
saying that Kondou and Shogun were friends.


Incidentally, although it is a possibility that Okita will learn the
art of fencing from a foreigner, there is a problem of the action
range and a language.
However, let's overcome them miraculously and think that the
foreigner taught Okita the art of fencing.
He teaches kindly the technique which was excellent in the sword of
the foreign country where weight, form, and the usage are completely
different from a Japanese sword.
Is really it helpful to Okita's art of fencing?
The style of the fighter of countries other than Japan thinks that
most has a sword and a shield.
A Japanese samurai has a Japanese sword with both hands.
He performs attack and defense with a Japanese sword.
Although it is thin compared with an Occidental sword and bends
immediately, it cuts even the thing of terrible hardness.
Therefore, the art of fencing of Japan did not need a shield.
The art of fencing of Japan is the technique for a Japanese sword.
The technique for using it completely differs from the technique
for an Occidental sword.
Of course, it differs from China and other Asia.
He will get nothing, even if Okita learns the art of fencing from a
foreign fighter.
If you plan to talk about possibility, after considering whether it
is really possible, you should talk.


A setup that Kondo and Sakamoto were friends was blamed by many
researchers even in Japan.
Their worries were giving the knowledge in which it made a mistake
to people.
However, I think that their worries are unnecessary.
If interested in Shinsengumi, he will make an effort which he
investigates by himself.
If uninterested, he will forget, after a drama is completed.

momoiro-usagi

Just to add in my .02 cents.

It's a "drama" on TV. I would hardly take ALL of it seriously from a historical perspective. It's like reading Kaze Hikaru or Peacemaker.

Personally I enjoy some of the things i've seen in the show since it gives it an interesting flair to it.

As far as whats been said already, history seldom catches little things, so there may be a lot that is unknown. There's are always possibilities.

Now, with that said, I think this was intially a welcome thread. So, welcome to all that have just joined!

~Okita

----- Original Message -----
From: momomanjyuu2004
To: SHQ@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 10:03 AM
Subject: [SHQ] Re: Hi


--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Alan" wrote:
> This is very poor reasoning. An argument like this is like saying
> Kondo and the Shogun had slumber parties as children because
there's
> no documentation saying they weren't friends, or that there
weren't
> any slumber parties in Japan, yet both were in Edo during that
time.

To be sure, my explanation was ambiguous.
I'm sorry supposing it irritates you.
However, do you understand that there is a possible range in
reasoning?
Kondou and Sakamoto may be able to be friends in Edo.
However, Shogun is unable to perform slumber parties with Kondou.

First of all, is slumber parties the event performed where?
Is it Japan? Is it Asia?
It is the event performed in the place which is not the area.
Do you understand the situation of Japan of the time?
Japan of the Edo period had closed the relation with the world as
you knew.
To the beginning of the Edo period, Japan disliked Christianity, and
it broke off the relation with foreign countries.
On the conditions which do not put in Christianity, only the
Netherlands traded with Japan in Europe.
At first, Japan did not import any books.
However, in order to collect information from the time of 8th
Shogun, everything but a Christianity-related book came to be
imported.
Scholars studied those books and got to know Occidental advanced
civilization.
They taught the government the importance of national defense.
However, it was not understood and they were often persecuted as
people who make society uneasy.
Since the Occidental thing was studied, there are people who
received a traitor's dishonor.
Those who imitate Western civilization have risk of being regarded
as a foreign enemy's cooperator.
Surely, there are no data that Japan of the time did not have
slumber parties.
However, is it possible to carry out slumber parties to the time
when the prejudice over the West was severe sure enough?

Incidentally, the official name of Shogun is Seiitaishogun.
This means it as Shogun which expels a foreign enemy.
Shogun is the person who got this class and power from the Emperor
on condition that national defense.
(When the Black Ships came, Shogun was not able to expel them.
The authority of Shogun fell. From the Battle of Sekigahara, Chosyu
and Tosa which had a grudge against Tokugawa begin to move. And
confusion of Bakumatsu took place.)
Then, why does Shogun take the lead in an Occidental event, and
perform it?

Although I say again, there is a possible range in reasoning.
A possibility that a possibility that they were friends, and slumber
parties were performed is not equivalent.


It is the site which I found by chance with the occasion.

http://homepage2.nifty.com/mu-2001/tsu37.htm

It is a Japanese site.
If this information was believed, when Kondou was alive, there was
no slumber parties even in the West.


By the way, are Kondou and Shogun able to be friends?
I think that it is impossible.
Surely, they were in Edo at the same time.
However, class becomes serious hindrance in order for them to become
friends.
As for their classes differing, the action range of them also
differs.
Although Sakamoto may exist in the action range of Kondo, Shogun is
not.
As Kondou cannot frequent Edo castle, Shogun cannot walk along the
city of Edo freely.
Where do they meet?
Moreover, is there any common friend who may connect Shogun with
Kondou?
The Edo period was status society.
A part of privileged people can meet Shogun, and Kondou's friends are
the farmers of Tama, or lower samurais.
Many hierarchies were between these two groups.
I jump over these and cannot think that there are those who connect
two persons.
Even if there is an opportunity for Kondou to meet Shogun, exceeding
such difficulties, Kondo cannot speak to Shogun directly.
The time cannot be associated without considering the other party's
status.
Is there any method of making friends with Shogun?

Sakamoto was the lower samurai of Tosa.
He is the student who came to Edo for the art of fencing.
He walks along Edo freely and he talks to townsmen freely.
Katsura is the elite of Chosyu.
However, he is a free student, while coming to Edo and studying.
They walk along the action range of Kondou freely.
They are Dojo which they are studying, interchange with the students
who came from other domains, and extend a connection.
Or an eager student visits other Dojo positively and spreads
knowledge.
The common friend was actually in Kondou and Katsura.
Watanabe Nobori who was learning by the same Renpeikan as Katsura
was the friend of Katsura.
For aid of a game, he often went to Shieikan.

Surely, there is no proof that Kondou, Sakamoto, and Katsura were
friends.
There are very few possibilities that they were friends.
However, the possibility is not equivalent to a possibility of
saying that Kondou and Shogun were friends.


Incidentally, although it is a possibility that Okita will learn the
art of fencing from a foreigner, there is a problem of the action
range and a language.
However, let's overcome them miraculously and think that the
foreigner taught Okita the art of fencing.
He teaches kindly the technique which was excellent in the sword of
the foreign country where weight, form, and the usage are completely
different from a Japanese sword.
Is really it helpful to Okita's art of fencing?
The style of the fighter of countries other than Japan thinks that
most has a sword and a shield.
A Japanese samurai has a Japanese sword with both hands.
He performs attack and defense with a Japanese sword.
Although it is thin compared with an Occidental sword and bends
immediately, it cuts even the thing of terrible hardness.
Therefore, the art of fencing of Japan did not need a shield.
The art of fencing of Japan is the technique for a Japanese sword.
The technique for using it completely differs from the technique
for an Occidental sword.
Of course, it differs from China and other Asia.
He will get nothing, even if Okita learns the art of fencing from a
foreign fighter.
If you plan to talk about possibility, after considering whether it
is really possible, you should talk.


A setup that Kondo and Sakamoto were friends was blamed by many
researchers even in Japan.
Their worries were giving the knowledge in which it made a mistake
to people.
However, I think that their worries are unnecessary.
If interested in Shinsengumi, he will make an effort which he
investigates by himself.
If uninterested, he will forget, after a drama is completed.

momoiro-usagi










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