Must read info (also on mb)

OMG! You guys are not going to believe this! I don't know if it's true
but I'll find out the sources. This is from Michael who gave us the
Shinsengumi Filmography. I know I'm the conspiracy/crackpot theory
queen of this group but even I couldn't have made this up....

< him and did not bother ,also several CHOSHU clansmen suggested putting
him(Kondo) in charge of the new police force but were over ruled by
SAIGO and OKUBO (haijime saito got that job>>


Did your jaws drop?? Mine sure did! Kondou turned on by Matsudaira???
It's kind of far out there but considering that we do know Saiou and
the Aizu big shots were on very very good terms I can see it being true.....

--
Barbara Sheridan
http://www.barbarasheridan.net



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

If this is true did Saitou become an "opportunist"? I think HIjikata
would consider that treachery, about not helping save Kondou... I
don't want to believe it's true but I though Matsudaira was loyal to
Aizu till the end or was this another instance of you're not a real
samurai because of your farmer roots?

Would this explain the reason why Nagakura and Saitou never met in
person? What about that prison that Sec was talking about with
Saitou "being on best behavior?" What about his laments over
everything that happened with his brother in law? Guilt???

I can't believe this... My two favorite guys might've actually butted
heads this intense? Ummm... Please Barb find out from Michael as this
will keep me awake at night @_@

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, BarbaraSheridan wrote:
> OMG! You guys are not going to believe this! I don't know if it's
true
> but I'll find out the sources. This is from Michael who gave us the
> Shinsengumi Filmography. I know I'm the conspiracy/crackpot theory
> queen of this group but even I couldn't have made this up....
>
> < save
> him and did not bother ,also several CHOSHU clansmen suggested
putting
> him(Kondo) in charge of the new police force but were over ruled by
> SAIGO and OKUBO (haijime saito got that job>>
>
>
> Did your jaws drop?? Mine sure did! Kondou turned on by
Matsudaira???
> It's kind of far out there but considering that we do know Saiou
and
> the Aizu big shots were on very very good terms I can see it being
true.....
>
> --
> Barbara Sheridan
> http://www.barbarasheridan.net
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Grace Battista wrote:

I don't know any more than you at this point but somehow I don't think
Saitou was an opportunist--I DO think that he had some well placed
friends who wanted to see him advance since it would be in their _mutual
best interest_ ,

>I though Matsudaira was loyal to
>Aizu till the end or was this another instance of you're not a real
>samurai because of your farmer roots?>.
>

I have no doubt that he was loyal to his Aizu people BUT I think he was
also smart enough to know that it would be a wise move indeed to get
Saitou the job considering how he may have _owed Aizu big time_ for past
favors and such....And of course the whole not our social class thing
didn't help matters.

> Please Barb find out from Michael as this
>will keep me awake at night @_@>>
>

I've emailed asking for his sources and as soon as I hear something the
list will.

*sly grin* of course I _could_ take a page from Okubo's book and make
you guys pay or the priviledge of hearing it LOL

--
Barbara Sheridan
http://www.barbarasheridan.net

All Aboard the the Train Bound for Conspiracy Central! by our chief
Barbara...

secretarytocapt3 checking passenger tickets and asking questions

1) what do you mean by "new police troop/force" (the new police system
headed by Kawaji)...I do not think so Fujita Goro's official rank was
inspector and sometimes sites translated by will say assistant
inspector...his rank was MUCH lower than let's say Miki

2) Fujita Goro's rank in the military during the Seinan War was
captain (also translated at times as semi-captain)...it was after his
return from Seinan that he got "probationary" duties as inspector it
seems...although I am surprised that he commanded 107 guys in this war
and captured 2 cannons from the enemy...captain is not a very high rank

*both 1to5.net and 3-hajime.com (which uses the same books as sources)
say he was affiliated with the police much earlier in terms of secret
recruitment and who knows what kind of assignments he got...in any
case the nature of his work does not seem to be public leadership at all

*I do find it interesting that he may not have met with Nagakura in
person but we may have to leave the door open that they wrote
letters...who knows later generations..."geez look at these stacks of
old papers, I'll go leave them by the curb"...so just because they did
not meet in person (besides the fact that Nagakura lived far away) did
not mean they were on bad terms

*However I do believe that Matsudaira may have "let" Kondou die...but
chances are Ryoma Sakamoto's murder (long believed to have been the
work of the Shinsengumi) and all the other "crimes" committed by the
Shinsengumi towards the revolutionaries had already sealed Kondou's
fate and I do NOT believe that the deposed Matsudaira could have saved
Kondou even if he wanted to

secretarytocapt3
for the first time ever actually trying to SLOW DOWN the conspiracy
locamotive :P

I was also thinking that if this info is true why didn't Fujita Goro
stay on the job as an inspector (assistant inspector) and climb the
ranks...if he was initially even considered for the job why didn't his
position advance (also consider the likely possibility that the job as
the head of security at a museum may have paid more). I am also
thinking of momoiro mentioning how his life was in danger (due to past
Shinsengumi related activities or Meiji era cop duties) as well.

Barb, are you sure this info isn't from the Toshiro Mifune [movie]
"Shinsengumi:Band of Assasins" where the revolutionaries (some pounded
the table) and tried to "save" Kondou?

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, BarbaraSheridan wrote:
also several CHOSHU clansmen suggested putting
him(Kondo) in charge of the new police force but were over ruled by
SAIGO and OKUBO (haijime saito got that job

secretary wrote:

>I was also thinking that if this info is true why didn't Fujita Goro
>stay on the job as an inspector (assistant inspector) and climb the
>ranks...>>
>

I don't see this as a problem I mean people leave or dislike certain
"good" jobs for all sorts of reasons

>< >"Shinsengumi:Band of Assasins" where the revolutionaries (some pounded
>the table) and tried to "save" Kondou?>>
>

I have no idea where this theory came from though I do know the scene
you're talking about. As soon as I find out I'll post it even if it all
turns out to be a bunch of drivel...if nothing else this type of
pondering is great for fanfic possibilities.

--
Barbara Sheridan
http://www.barbarasheridan.net

Thank you, Sec! My first reaction was "WAIT a minute! That's wrong! Saitou was never in charge of a police force!" Not even in RK. :-D

Let's face it... 1868 seems to have been the year when BOTH sides were doing some weeding and the likes of Kondou and Sagara may have gotten plucked for what some people thought was for the good of the garden. I agree with Sec that Matsudaira may have let them take Kondou... to alleviate some trouble and put himself in a better position to save others if he could... but not that there was any malicious intent on his part. He was tough, but I've never seen Matsudaira in that light. As always, that's just my reaction to things.

phil

secretary <secretarytocapt3@...> wrote:
All Aboard the the Train Bound for Conspiracy Central! by our chief
Barbara...

secretarytocapt3 checking passenger tickets and asking questions

1) what do you mean by "new police troop/force" (the new police system
headed by Kawaji)...I do not think so Fujita Goro's official rank was
inspector and sometimes sites translated by will say assistant
inspector...his rank was MUCH lower than let's say Miki

2) Fujita Goro's rank in the military during the Seinan War was
captain (also translated at times as semi-captain)...it was after his
return from Seinan that he got "probationary" duties as inspector it
seems...although I am surprised that he commanded 107 guys in this war
and captured 2 cannons from the enemy...captain is not a very high rank

*both 1to5.net and 3-hajime.com (which uses the same books as sources)
say he was affiliated with the police much earlier in terms of secret
recruitment and who knows what kind of assignments he got...in any
case the nature of his work does not seem to be public leadership at all

*I do find it interesting that he may not have met with Nagakura in
person but we may have to leave the door open that they wrote
letters...who knows later generations..."geez look at these stacks of
old papers, I'll go leave them by the curb"...so just because they did
not meet in person (besides the fact that Nagakura lived far away) did
not mean they were on bad terms

*However I do believe that Matsudaira may have "let" Kondou die...but
chances are Ryoma Sakamoto's murder (long believed to have been the
work of the Shinsengumi) and all the other "crimes" committed by the
Shinsengumi towards the revolutionaries had already sealed Kondou's
fate and I do NOT believe that the deposed Matsudaira could have saved
Kondou even if he wanted to

secretarytocapt3
for the first time ever actually trying to SLOW DOWN the conspiracy
locamotive :P










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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

M, just corrected me but, at the time of Kondou's execution Matsudaira
still had political power.

*I have a theory though as to why Fujita Goro was just an
inspector...umm if he had public leadership duties that would kind of
detract from other more secretive assignments...imagine the following
scenario...officials meet for a banquet with local police Chief Fujita
"wait we had an appointment...why isn't he here? This is an
insult"...police "Chief Fujita is undercover fighting Shishio---I mean
he had an appointment" (yes I purposefully mixed history + fiction)
you get the idea

> secretary wrote:

and I do NOT believe that the deposed Matsudaira could have saved

> Kondou even if he wanted to

secretarytocapt3(a)hotmail.com
also on AIM as "badgerturtle"

Put down the tar and feathers people I didn't insinuate Saitou was in
charge of the TMPD (*grin*) I think this is just a mis-choice of a word
And I quote verbatim from the original msg I received from Michael.---

< new police force but were over ruled by SAIGO and OKUBO (haijime saito
got that job ,and actualy fought against his former comrads>>

I don't think he meant Saitou headed the entire police force note the
"fought against his former comrades" part--I think this refers to
heading the troop in what became Saigo's rebellion. And I'm thinking the
earlier part meant that someone possibly suggested Kondo for the Kawaji
position???

I never said it was carved in stone fact I merely tossed it out for
some contemplation and discussion---oh all right and because I just like
conspiracy theories...

Barbara Sheridan
http://www.barbarasheridan.net

sec puts down tar and feathers...actually I was going to suggest
fangirl "kinshin" you are prohibited from being in the same room as a
computer...now eye candy viewing!!!!

my rant wasn't directed at you personally...I think Satsuma samurai
wanted their own guy for the job...(sigh) if only history could be
changed...then HIJIKATA would be the founding father of the modern
police force...okay okay I'll stop now

still waiting for Michael to elaborate
secretarytocapt3
AIM "badgerturtle"
badger=school mascot
turtle=I care for an old turtle

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, BarbaraSheridan wrote:
> Put down the tar and feathers people I didn't insinuate Saitou was in
> charge of the TMPD (*grin*) I think this is just a mis-choice of a
word
> And I quote verbatim from the original msg I received from Michael.---
>
> < > new police force but were over ruled by SAIGO and OKUBO (haijime saito
> got that job ,and actualy fought against his former comrads>>
>
> I don't think he meant Saitou headed the entire police force note the
> "fought against his former comrades" part--I think this refers to
> heading the troop in what became Saigo's rebellion. And I'm thinking
the
> earlier part meant that someone possibly suggested Kondo for the Kawaji
> position???
>
> I never said it was carved in stone fact I merely tossed it out for
> some contemplation and discussion---oh all right and because I just
like
> conspiracy theories...
>
> Barbara Sheridan
> http://www.barbarasheridan.net

CORRECTION "NO EYE CANDY VIEWING!!!!"
seeing how your demotion to bath house attendant last time was not a
real punishment for you LOL!

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "secretary" wrote:
> sec puts down tar and feathers...actually I was going to suggest
> fangirl "kinshin" you are prohibited from being in the same room as a
> computer...now eye candy viewing!!!!

secretary wrote:

>CORRECTION "NO EYE CANDY VIEWING!!!!"
>seeing how your demotion to bath house attendant last time was not a
>real punishment for you LOL!
>
>

Unless you post a most unattractive female armed guard you know that's
not happening LOL

--
Barbara Sheridan
http://www.barbarasheridan.net

In a message dated 7/3/2004 9:53:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "secretary" <secretarytocapt3@...> writes:

>CORRECTION "NO EYE CANDY VIEWING!!!!"
>seeing how your demotion to bath house attendant last time was not a
>real punishment for you LOL!
>
>--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "secretary"

-MissBehavin dares to wade into the debate.-

Acutally there is something to this. From what I understand, not all of Hijikata's guilt over Kondo's fate was based on his friend being captured while the rest of them escaped. Some of it seems to have come from the fact that he was unable to stop the execution. He went to Edo under the name "Hayato Naito" to appeal for Kondo's rescue. Who did he appeal to? The obvious choice would be Matsudaira.

I doubt that Matsudaira's decision not to do anything would have been based on trying to secure others a better position. At that point he must have realized he was on shaky ground himself. This is about the time he went back to Aizu and began making appeals for a lenient decision against his domain if I'm not mistaken. He had power still, but he also knew it was only a matter of time before the new government passed judgement on him. Probably he didn't attempt to stop Kondo's execution because such an action might have made him look guilty to the few sympathetic eyes out there. People would have been like "So! Still trying to throw your weight around, are you?!" It was better to stay silent and comply with the new government's decisions. At least until they started to hit home...

I can easily see elements of the Choshu group wanting to snatch up Kondo for a new police force however. This would have been great for them for a number of reasons. For one thing, a former Bakufu supporter leading THEIR police force? That might have convinced others (like Hijikata) that it was pointless to continue fighting. It would also have halted some of the hositlities by showing that their enemies would be treated fairly. And they already knew from experience the man's capabilities. On the conspiracy note, one might specutlate that by advocating him they were hoping to curb some of Satsuma's influence in the new administration. However Satsuma was out to grab as much personal power as possible and, as a former enemy of the new government, any argument in Kondo's favor was doomed from the start.


-MissBehavin (Still believes the Babelfish was an Ishin conspiracy...)

I wish I knew what Kondou's reaction to the whole affair was....
Actually now that you've mentioned that (since I really don't think
and just jump the gun on everything), if Kondou was a good loyal man
then he'd choose death than get some hand me down position to justify
the current regime and lower the morales of those still fighting the
new govt. If he gave in (if there was ever a chance to), I mean it
would be like his whole life and this fight would've been for
nothing... Un-samurai like...

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, Warg3791@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 7/3/2004 9:53:36 PM Eastern Daylight
Time, "secretary" writes:
>
> >CORRECTION "NO EYE CANDY VIEWING!!!!"
> >seeing how your demotion to bath house attendant last time was not
a
> >real punishment for you LOL!
> >
> >--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "secretary"
>
>
> -MissBehavin dares to wade into the debate.-
>
> Acutally there is something to this. From what I understand, not
all of Hijikata's guilt over Kondo's fate was based on his friend
being captured while the rest of them escaped. Some of it seems to
have come from the fact that he was unable to stop the execution. He
went to Edo under the name "Hayato Naito" to appeal for Kondo's
rescue. Who did he appeal to? The obvious choice would be Matsudaira.
>
> I doubt that Matsudaira's decision not to do anything would have
been based on trying to secure others a better position. At that
point he must have realized he was on shaky ground himself. This is
about the time he went back to Aizu and began making appeals for a
lenient decision against his domain if I'm not mistaken. He had power
still, but he also knew it was only a matter of time before the new
government passed judgement on him. Probably he didn't attempt to
stop Kondo's execution because such an action might have made him
look guilty to the few sympathetic eyes out there. People would have
been like "So! Still trying to throw your weight around, are you?!"
It was better to stay silent and comply with the new government's
decisions. At least until they started to hit home...
>
> I can easily see elements of the Choshu group wanting to snatch up
Kondo for a new police force however. This would have been great for
them for a number of reasons. For one thing, a former Bakufu
supporter leading THEIR police force? That might have convinced
others (like Hijikata) that it was pointless to continue fighting. It
would also have halted some of the hositlities by showing that their
enemies would be treated fairly. And they already knew from
experience the man's capabilities. On the conspiracy note, one might
specutlate that by advocating him they were hoping to curb some of
Satsuma's influence in the new administration. However Satsuma was
out to grab as much personal power as possible and, as a former enemy
of the new government, any argument in Kondo's favor was doomed from
the start.
>
>
> -MissBehavin (Still believes the Babelfish was an Ishin
conspiracy...)