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Shinsengumi Buddhist "death names"

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#1233 [2004-06-23 13:05:54]

Shinsengumi Buddhist "death names"

by shimazuryu

From www.toshizo.com. I have NO idea if I've read the death names correctly,
but these are my interpretations of them, with whatever tools I had at my
disposal. I've kept the Japanese text in here, so those of you who can read
Japanese on your computers can judge the accuracy (or inaccuracy, as the
case may be) for yourselves.

--M.

---------------

FROM: http://www.toshizo.com/nozoku/index.html
戒名
Kaimyou
(Death names)

★ 近藤勇
★ Kondou Isami
貫天院殿純忠誠義大居士(純義誠忠とも)
Nukitenindonojunchuuseiyoshihiro-koji (along with the name
Sumiyoshi-seichuu)
勇生院顕光放運居士
Yuuseiinakimitsuhouun-koji
心勝院大勇儀賢居士
Shinkatsuintaiyuugiken-koji
★ 土方歳三
★ Hijikata Toshizou
歳進院殿誠山義豊大居士(称名寺)
Toshisusumuindonomakotoyamayoshitoyodai-koji (at the grave at Shoumyou-ji)
有統院鉄心日現居士(実行寺)
Yuuosamuintesshinbiutsutsu-koji (Jikkou-ji)
広長院釈義操(浄玄寺内・能量寺)
Hiroosainshakugimi-misao (Within Jougenji and at Nouryouji)
★ 沖田総司
★ Okita Souji
賢光院仁誉明道居士
Masamitsuinjinhomaakimichi-koji
★ 原田左之助
★ Harada Sanosuke
正誉円入居士
Masahomeennyuu-kyoshi (Harada�s 2nd son: ????)
(左之助の次男:禅雪童子)
★ 山崎烝
★ Yamazaki Susumu
顕光院貫月義実居士
Akimitsuinnukitsukiyoshimi-koji

★ 稗田利八
★ Hieda Toshihachi (Ikeda Shichisaburou)
義選院法喜日利居士
Giseninhoukibiri-kyogin

★ 谷万太郎
★ Tani Mantarou
自証院本覚日遊居士
Jiakashiinhonsatoruhiyu-koji

★ 田村銀之助
★ Tamura Kinnosuke
諦善院忍誉覚道居士
Teizeninninhomarekakudou-koji

★ 中島登
★ Nakajima Nobori
隆慶院孝庵義忠居士
Takakeiintakashiioriyoshitada-koji

★ 三好胖
★ Miyoshi Yutaka
徳忠院殿専誉功義正道大居士
Tokuchuuindonoatsumuhomarekougiseidoudai-koji

★ 島崎一(西村一平)
★ Shimazaki Hajime (Nishimura Ippei)
真誉勇哲信士
Masayoshiyuusato-nobushi

★ 原田忠司
★ Harada Tadaji
仁勇院寂明珠光居士
Jinyuuinsabiakemihikari-koji

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#1235 [2004-06-23 13:47:18]

Re: [SHQ] Shinsengumi Buddhist "death names"

by spiritus_saitou

To keep *myself* straight, these are names that are adopted at death because there's some hesitancy to use the name used during life, right? Who chooses them?

Which brings me to something I was thinking about earlier today... during his lifetime... let's say during the time period of RK to keep it easy to think about... did people refer to the emperor as Meiji or did that come after his death? I only ever knew the Japanese emperor as Hirohito before his death and now it's something else (Showa? or was that earlier?). I've read about how that name is decided, but I began to wonder about Meiji and the usage of Meiji to number the years as they were passing. Is it actually wrong for characters in RK to be referring to 1878 as Meiji 11? When is that decided? What would they have actually have used to specify the year?

phil (confused as usual)

Hirotada Tokugawa <patriot014@...> wrote:
From www.toshizo.com. I have NO idea if I've read the death names correctly,
but these are my interpretations of them, with whatever tools I had at my
disposal. I've kept the Japanese text in here, so those of you who can read
Japanese on your computers can judge the accuracy (or inaccuracy, as the
case may be) for yourselves.

--M.

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#1237 [2004-06-23 14:13:45]

Re: Shinsengumi Buddhist "death names"

by secretarytocapt3

M, http://g1342122.at.infoseek.co.jp/ also has Buddhist death names
too you may want to check on.

For the new folks, a long time ago I posted what I read from a site
on the purpose of Buddhist posthumous names...basically after
someone dies you don't want to keep referring to their names because
that invokes them to keep returning (and you want them to be at
peace)...so you come up with another name instead. The site didn't
mention who would come up with the names. I can ~guess~ that a monk
with the knowledge on creating auspicious names would be consulted.

[Previous #1235] [Next #1238]

#1238 [2004-06-23 15:19:35]

Re: [SHQ] Shinsengumi Buddhist "death names"

by tamagot93

It's very complicated to explain about every thing about Kaimyo, so I give
here few information.
I know that "Kaimyo" or bouddhist name is often translated as posthmous name,
and actually lot of people recieves Kaimyo after death.
But originally Kaimyo is a name for one who is considered as a bouddhist
diciple, so we can have a Kaimyo before death, just like a christian name.

I can't read what M san has translated, because of some interferrnce (I
tried to read it with another mailer but it doesn't work) .
About Shinsengumi member's kaimyo, we can notice that many taishi has "IN "
title.
IN title is originally reserved for former Emperor, and later most of samurai
was confered IN title as Kaimyo. So this title is confered to aristocracy if
anything in the past.

In Kaimyo, Kanji from one's liftime name are included frequently, and can put
some kanji which evokes one's achivement or personality.
For exemple, Kondo's kaimyo indicates his loyality.

That's what I can say about kaimyo for the moment. may be I'll give more
details later.

Tama






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#1240 [2004-06-24 06:27:38]

Re: Shinsengumi Buddhist "death names"

by momomanjyuu2004

I do not know all their "kaimyo".
However, the top Hijikata's "kaimyo" knows.
It pronounces "Saishin-inden-seizan-yoshitoyo-daikoji".

The custom of "kaimyo" is not in India where Buddhism originated.
It started in ancient China. It is a name as a Buddhistic student.
In Japan, all people become the student of Buddha, after dying.
Therefore, the "kaimyo" name was given to the dead in Buddhism of
Japan.
"kaimyo" changes treatment on various conditions.
In many cases, the priest of the temple where he was registered
decides "kaimyo".
(Tokugawa government was forcing registration of all Japanese to the
temple so that people might hide and they might not believe in
Christianity.)
"Kaimyo" of the Edo period changed with classes.
Many samurais received the "kaimyo" name containing "IN" and "koji"
class.

However, there is an exception.
Although the words "inden" and "daikoji" are contained in "kaimyo"
of Kondou and Hijikata, respectively, in fact, these express the
very high class.
These are the words which only daimyos and aristocrats are allowed.
(In fact, it is the thing of an impossible class at them.)
Similarly in the Shinsengumi member, Miyoshi Yutaka has "inden"
and "daikoji" in the "kaimyo".
Although he is the member who was in the second half of Shinsengumi,
he is the 4th son of Karatsu Han-Daimyo.

http://www.geocities.co.jp/HeartLand-Namiki/3799/bekkan/miyosi.html

Matsudaira Katamori presents "kaimyo" of Kondou and Hijikata to
Meiji Era.
I think that he wanted to present the highest "kaimyo" to Kondou and
Hijikata who fought and died for the Tokugawa government.


Incidentally, since "kaimyo" is a Buddhistic custom, there are
Japanese people who is not applied.
Since Sakamoto Ryoma was buried in the Shinto style, there is
not "kaimyo".

Furthermore, although this is a very special example, and Saitou
Hajime was buried in the Buddhistic temple, he does not
have "kaimyo".
This is his testament.
"I had many names until now. Therefore, other names are not desired
any more."

momoiro-usagi

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#1241 [2004-06-24 07:32:42]

Correction

by momomanjyuu2004

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "momomanjyuu2004"
wrote:
> Matsudaira Katamori presents "kaimyo" of Kondou and Hijikata to
> Meiji Era.

I'm sorry .
Kondou's "kaimyo" was made before the Aizu war in 1868.
The name currently dug in the gravestone of the Aizu Ten-nei temple
is right.
This is the grave which got permission from Matsudaira Katamori and
Hijikata built.
Therefore, this is corrected.

momoiro-usagi

[Previous #1240] [Next #1242]

#1242 [2004-06-24 09:52:55]

Saitou Hajime's (Re: Shinsengumi Buddhist "death names")

by secretarytocapt3

His testament...he said this? Or is this on his tombstone
wow @_@
many months ago we discussed that it must be difficult to live with
many names

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "momomanjyuu2004"
wrote:

> Furthermore, although this is a very special example, and Saitou
> Hajime was buried in the Buddhistic temple, he does not
> have "kaimyo".
> This is his testament.
> "I had many names until now. Therefore, other names are not
desired
> any more."
>
> momoiro-usagi

[Previous #1241] [Next #1243]

#1243 [2004-06-24 11:42:40]

Re: [SHQ] Saitou Hajime's (Re: Shinsengumi Buddhist "death names")

by warg3791

In a message dated 6/24/2004 12:52:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, secretarytocapt3@... writes:

> His testament...he said this? Or is this on his tombstone
> wow @_@
> many months ago we discussed that it must be difficult to live with
> many names
>
> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "momomanjyuu2004"
> wrote:
>
> > Furthermore, although this is a very special example, and Saitou
> > Hajime was buried in the Buddhistic temple, he does not
> > have "kaimyo".
> > This is his testament.
> > "I had many names until now. Therefore, other names are
> not
> desired
> > any more."
> >
> > momoiro-usagi



This is absolutely fascinating!!! As I recall Secretary, you wondered at the time if the man ever had an identity crisis. It would appear the answer is "yes". He had to change who he was so many times in life he was determined not to have to do it one more time even when he died.

And thanks for giving us Hijikata's "kaimyo" momoiro! So it was Matsudaira who gave it to him? Never let it be said the man did not appreciate those who showed him loyalty!

-MissBehavin

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#1244 [2004-06-24 13:57:03]

Saitou Hajime's (Re: Shinsengumi Buddhist + Tengu

by secretarytocapt3

And Miss Miss B remember in your information jackpot on how he wanted
to keep the name Fujita Goro "clean" (no doubt because his family
depended on it).
How depressing. And we always complained about the order of his name
change and when he started to use such and such a name...the man
himself was tired of it! -_-
I have to reiterate that I immediately noticed how NHK Saitou was
annoyed and paused to think when Kondo asked for his name. Saitou is
a man who owns nothing, not even his name, and come to think of it
when you are the loser in a war and have to be moved around to this
temple to that camp as a prisoner you have nothing but the clothes on
your back. (Weird Connection) didn't Musashi set down some rules...I
think 10 and one of the rules was not to own too many things (possess
material wealth)...keep your life simple.

screenplay title
"Saitou Hajime: The Man Who Owns Nothing" ^_^

end of mindless chatter
-----------------------------------------------
Who knew? Tengu not only teach swordsmanship to lucky mortals...they
also forged swords. That's right. These talented mythical half-man
half bird creatures, wear fundoshi and forge swords. I saw a really
beautiful drawing of this but I was not allowed to scan or photocopy
the image (stored in the library director's office)...the art of
forging swords has not changed one bit.


--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, Warg3791@a... wrote:

> This is absolutely fascinating!!! As I recall Secretary, you
wondered at the time if the man ever had an identity crisis. It would
appear the answer is "yes". He had to change who he was so many times
in life he was determined not to have to do it one more time even
when he died.
>
> And thanks for giving us Hijikata's "kaimyo" momoiro! So it was
Matsudaira who gave it to him? Never let it be said the man did not
appreciate those who showed him loyalty!
>
> -MissBehavin

[Previous #1243] [Next #1246]

#1246 [2004-06-24 14:35:58]

Re: [SHQ] Saitou Hajime's (Re: Shinsengumi Buddhist + Tengu

by spiritus_saitou

secretary <secretarytocapt3@...> wrote:

>>How depressing. And we always complained about the order of his name change and when he started to use such and such a name...the man himself was tired of it! -_-

I have to reiterate that I immediately noticed how NHK Saitou was annoyed and paused to think when Kondo asked for his name. Saitou is a man who owns nothing, not even his name, and come to think of it when you are the loser in a war and have to be moved around to this temple to that camp as a prisoner you have nothing but the clothes on your back.<<

When I first began learning about the real man, it was one of my very first thoughts... here is a man who had everything taken from him, including not just name, but his identity, too (how do you deal with being told there's no more samurai when your very spirit is samurai?) and he *still* prevailed. It makes up a large part of my tremendous admiration for him and a wish that I had the kind of inner strength he had to have had. When things get to be really hard for me, I take a deep breath and think about what he endured. It doesn't solve the problem causing the discord, but it helps me calm down and be more realistic about my reaction.

With all the recent talk of some of his fetishes and formality, I have to think the fact that he did lose everything played into his desire to have things socially upscale, orderly, and samurai. Nothing makes you more protective of something than when you've lost it once before.

It's also behind everything I write of RK Saitou in my fanfic. Learning about Saitou's history before he shows up in RK has really colored how I've come to view the character. And, yaoi or not, there was no way I could ignore how valuable he could be to Sanosuke, who was my favorite until Saitou appeared. Unlike Kenshin, Saitou has moved beyond the past. He's realistic because he's had to be in order to survive. And despite all of the adaptation he's had to go through, he's retained his basic morals and ethics. That makes him the far better teacher for Sanosuke... and one I think Sanosuke would respect more. The lesson he learned from the idealistic RK Sagara's fate was just too painful, I think, for him to be satisfied with more idealism.

Wish he could be *my* teacher...
phil


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#1257 [2004-06-26 06:56:02]

Saitou Hajime's (Re: Shinsengumi Buddhist "death names")

by momomanjyuu2004

The old Japanese often had changing his name.
(To be sure, Saitou had much it.)
It seems that they seldom sensed sense of incongruity to it.
When he wanted to hide true character from others, when his social
status changed, old Japanese changed the name.
(By the false name and the name which changed formally, since a
meaning is different, you have to distinguish.
However, I am ignorant in order to explain the method of the
distinction to you. I'm sorry.)

In fact, I do not know why it can be performed easily.
However, although this was only my guess, they had a name of "Imina"
apart from the name used usually.
"Imina" is "the taboo name" or "the hidden real name".
The custom to which this existed in ancient China is origin.
In ancient China, it was a taboo to call the real name of the man of
a high status.
Nobody was able to say an emperor's real name.
Therefore, noble people needed the usual name apart from the real
name.
People of a lower status called the noble person by the name.
And a noble person's real name became the hidden name which only
people of a near relation get to know.
(Furthermore, although this was also Chinese thought, when the real
name was known by the enemy, it was believed that it was used for
magic.)
This custom was imported by the old time to Japan.
Although it was required at first for the Emperors and aristocrats,
when the time passed, people of a lower status also imitated.

The people of the Edo period had at least two name.
One is "Tsusyou" and this is the name which anyone knows.
And another is "Imina".
This is the name which only his relative and very intimate friend,
and the sovereign of it and him can call.
For example, we know the name of Hijikata Toshizou.
He was called for the lifetime by this name and is this name still
now.
However, "Toshizou" is not a real name. His "Imina" is "Yoshitoyo".
That is, his real name is Hijikata Yoshitoyo.
(Although I do not know details, I think that the family name also
had a thing like "Imina" surely.)
Although an uncertain thing should not be said, since the real name
suited independently, I think that they would not have sense of
incongruity in changing a usual name.
(However, in order to escape an enemy, using the name different from
a real name is the case which often exists. In practice, it may be a
simpler reason.)

Incidentally, the custom of "Imina" was abolished when the Meiji
government created a family register in Meiji 5(1872).
Therefore, I do not have "Imina". And as long as there is no serious
reason, we are forbidden from changing a name.

Now, efforts of researchers show many Shinsengumi members' "Imina".
However, a member with unknown "Imina" exists one person.
The man is the most mysterious member among Shinsengumi.
But to him, everything but the name of Fujita Goro got from
Matsudaira Katamori may be unnecessary.
(Saitou said that "kaimyo" is unnecessary.)


--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, Warg3791@a... wrote:
>So it was Matsudaira who gave it to him? Never let it be said the
man did not appreciate those who showed him loyalty!
>
> -MissBehavin

Matsudaira Katamori is also writing the title of a monument
called "Jyunseturyoyunohi" in Hino.
I think that he was truly thankful to them. Matsumoto Ryojyun wrote
the text of this monument.
Nagakura also participated in creation with Shinsengumi relations of
Tama area.
Is "the man" Tokugawa Yoshinobu if my translation is not wrong?
I think that he had his position.
However, it is a fact that he was very indifferent to his retainers.
First having been ordered writing the title of "Jyunseturyoyunohi"
was Yoshinobu.
However, he only sheds tears and did not write it at last.


On Monday, I will attend a office.
Probably, I will make the preparations which attend a office to the
time.
I may be able to participate for about 1 hour.
However, I require time for understanding English very much.
Probably, even if I participate, I cannot speak at all -_-
Gomen-nasai.

momoiro-usagi

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#1258 [2004-06-26 15:14:16]

Re: [SHQ] Saitou Hajime's (Re: Shinsengumi Buddhist "death names")

by warg3791

The custom of hiding one's name for fear it could be used against them in magic was also known in Europe during the Medieval period. It was thought to be dangerous to give strangers your real name. (One has to keep in mind how isolated rural villages were and the fact that actually meeting a stranger would have been a very rare event. Most people never left their villages once during their entire lifetime, even to go to the next town.) You find the examples of this most often in the Faery lore. Strange that such a fear was so common all over.

Thanks for clearing that up! I've heard the name "Yoshitoyo" before and was told it was a formal name, but I had no understanding of exactly what that meant. Hm, it seems that someone learning his "Imina" would have been disasterous. Would he have trusted that a person claiming to have an urgent message from his family more if they used this name or would it have made him even more suspicious than he might have been? An interesting idea to pursue in a fic.


Oh, I was actually still referring to Matsudaira. It would have actually surprised me to hear of Yoshinobu taking an active part. I've never seen any indication that the Shinsengumi were all that close to him in any way. But they seemed very loyal to Matsudaira. So I was just thinking of all that he did for them later and was glad to know he thought so much of their efforts on his behalf.

-MissBehavin

[Previous #1257] [Next #1648]

#1648 [2004-09-26 13:26:51]

Correction

by shimazuryu

Full name of woman #2 is Honma Chikujo.

--M.

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