The enemy

And in this corner, the Shinsengumi's opponents...

From a Japanese hotel site, a group photo from 1865 of the Satsuma gang, including Kawaji, Saigou, Ookubo, Katsura, Kaishu Katsu, Ryoma Sakamoto... and Barb, is the emperor pictured Komei?

Good luck picking them out! :-D
http://www.hakusuikan.co.jp/esite/gallery/007.htm

phil


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I'm guess here...Toshiyoshi Kawaji is the one right in the
middle...same hair do and the shape of the face is a perfect
match...wearing a suit...man all of his friends/family from Satsuma
must've hated him...
By the way the only dates I have of Toshiyoshi Kawaji is 1836-
1879...pretty short life...

I've found neat info on the armories in Tokyo/Osaka...they imported
guns and started "converting" them right before the Seinan
War...details will show up in my essay

If you have a hard time believing that Miki can scare off some
robbers then you'll have to download one of the sensei vids at
http://www.kendovj.com...the guy is 81...and you don't want to go up
against him in a match @_@...very calm and reflexes are sharp


--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, spiritus saitou
wrote:

> And in this corner, the Shinsengumi's opponents...
>
> From a Japanese hotel site, a group photo from 1865 of the Satsuma

gang, including Kawaji, Saigou, Ookubo, Katsura, Kaishu Katsu, Ryoma
Sakamoto... and Barb, is the emperor pictured Komei?

>
> Good luck picking them out! :-D
> http://www.hakusuikan.co.jp/esite/gallery/007.htm
>
> phil
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Now 99.999% of other places give you a bigger picture if you click the
main one, but do these guys? Apparently not! At least not on my end...

Anyway judging by the caption it says it's the future Meiji.

spiritus saitou wrote:

>And in this corner, the Shinsengumi's opponents...
>
>>From a Japanese hotel site, a group photo from 1865 of the Satsuma gang, including Kawaji, Saigou, Ookubo, Katsura, Kaishu Katsu, Ryoma Sakamoto... and Barb, is the emperor pictured Komei?
>
>Good luck picking them out! :-D
>http://www.hakusuikan.co.jp/esite/gallery/007.htm
>
>phil
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
Barbara Sheridan
http://www.barbarasheridan.net



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think they scanned a pic from a small reproduction like from a
book or something...are we subconsciously comparing pics of Satsuma
men with our Hijikata?
*alternate universe* could you imagine if there was some sort of
campaign race between Satsuma and the Tokugawa...think of the
possible campaign posters/ads of (ok this is weird) Ryoma's famous
pic vs. Hijikata or Saigo's pic vs. Hijikata ^_^...maybe that's not
fair okay Kondo vs. Ryoma
Hope you guys read Momoiro's new "ghost story"

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, BarbaraSheridan wrote:
> Now 99.999% of other places give you a bigger picture if you click
the
> main one, but do these guys? Apparently not! At least not on my
end...
>
> Anyway judging by the caption it says it's the future Meiji.
>
> spiritus saitou wrote:
>
> >And in this corner, the Shinsengumi's opponents...
> >
> >>From a Japanese hotel site, a group photo from 1865 of the
Satsuma gang, including Kawaji, Saigou, Ookubo, Katsura, Kaishu
Katsu, Ryoma Sakamoto... and Barb, is the emperor pictured Komei?
> >
> >Good luck picking them out! :-D
> >http://www.hakusuikan.co.jp/esite/gallery/007.htm
> >
> >phil
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------
> >Do you Yahoo!?
> >New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
> >
> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Barbara Sheridan
> http://www.barbarasheridan.net
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

secretary <secretarytocapt3@...> wrote:

>>By the way the only dates I have of Toshiyoshi Kawaji is 1836-

1879...pretty short life...<<

I thought 1879 was when he retired. I may have just assumed that ages ago, not realizing he had died. Anyway, the way RK Kawaji smokes and practically hyperventilates over everything in both the manga and the anime, I wouldn't be surprised if he keeled over with a heart attack. The real man must've seen few nights of sleep trying to organize and regulate the new police force in such troubled and changing times... think of all the animosities he must've had to deal with with so many former samurai in the ranks. (Okay, let's see... we've got to keep that Suzuki fellow away from *anyone* with Shinsengumi connections... it's easy to joke about now, but I have to think he had to keep things like that in mind.)

I developed an admiration for the man from the first I started looking for info on him. He seemed to leave his own prior loyalties on the back burner in favor of creating something beneficial for all of Japan. I really do wonder how difficult it was for him to have to go against Saigou... I sometimes feel like it might not have bothered him too much considering the threat Saigou posed to the new government. Like I said, his actions speak more of man concerned with the larger picture, not just who won the war. Even Katsura was fed up by the end.

phil


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Like duh... :-D Give me a small picture and I can no longer read the *large* print. I think a gremlin changed it on me. But am I right that Komei was still alive in 1865? (I've been reading too many dates today and I'm all confused)

It's my luck Sagara's in there somewhere, just not identified (though he did seem to stick to his home ground of Edo and vicinity). Now, if someone speaks up and tells me I've missed seeing Kojima Masamitsu in that large print, I'll be going back to bed and trying again tomorrow. ;-D

phil

BarbaraSheridan <bsher213@...> wrote:
Now 99.999% of other places give you a bigger picture if you click the
main one, but do these guys? Apparently not! At least not on my end...

Anyway judging by the caption it says it's the future Meiji.

spiritus saitou wrote:

>And in this corner, the Shinsengumi's opponents...
>
>>From a Japanese hotel site, a group photo from 1865 of the Satsuma gang, including Kawaji, Saigou, Ookubo, Katsura, Kaishu Katsu, Ryoma Sakamoto... and Barb, is the emperor pictured Komei?
>
>Good luck picking them out! :-D
>http://www.hakusuikan.co.jp/esite/gallery/007.htm
>
>phil
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
Barbara Sheridan
http://www.barbarasheridan.net



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]










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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

That's the confusing part...I'm getting info right out of materials
written by people who teach Japanese history or published several
journal articles...right after Kawaji's dates are Mishima Toshitsune
1835-1888 the next guy for the job...the first dates are the
birthdates (?!?)

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, spiritus saitou
wrote:

> secretary wrote:
> >>By the way the only dates I have of Toshiyoshi Kawaji is 1836-
> 1879...pretty short life...<<
>
> I thought 1879 was when he retired.

Maybe that says something about the difficulty of the job, the stress these men were under. Wow...

phil

secretary <secretarytocapt3@...> wrote:
That's the confusing part...I'm getting info right out of materials
written by people who teach Japanese history or published several
journal articles...right after Kawaji's dates are Mishima Toshitsune
1835-1888 the next guy for the job...the first dates are the
birthdates (?!?)

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, spiritus saitou
wrote:

> secretary wrote:
> >>By the way the only dates I have of Toshiyoshi Kawaji is 1836-
> 1879...pretty short life...<<
>
> I thought 1879 was when he retired.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Phil, mentioned how some guys in the top may have to consider
separating certain subordinates from killing each other...well...I
think it was easy...

Kawaji "anyone start up an old feud or try to seek revenge...both
parties get fired -period- and don't give me none of that 'oh my
bayonet accidently ended up in his chest bit' either"

and the police had to attend training camps/schools (1890s all over
the country) so it would involve much younger officers...I hoped
they had separate barracks...imagine having to live with people you
may not have liked...true the next generation may have dealt with
old animosities in a more positive way but not likely...

spiritus saitou wrote:

>Like duh... :-D Give me a small picture and I can no longer read the *large* print. I think a gremlin changed it on me. But am I right that Komei was still alive in 1865? (I've been reading too many dates today and I'm all confused)
>
>

Yes Komei didn't succumb to the "non contagious" smallpox till 2 yrs
later---something I just remembered. The future Meiji would only have
been 12/13 when that picture was taken since he was 15 when he took the
throne---or donned the marionette strings as the case may be.

Hey I warned you guys---I have "issues" :-D

--
Barbara Sheridan
http://www.barbarasheridan.net

In a message dated 6/19/2004 5:05:23 PM Eastern Standard Time,
secretarytocapt3@... writes:
*alternate universe* could you imagine if there was some sort of
campaign race between Satsuma and the Tokugawa...think of the
possible campaign posters/ads of (ok this is weird) Ryoma's famous
pic vs. Hijikata or Saigo's pic vs. Hijikata ^_^...maybe that's not
fair okay Kondo vs. Ryoma

Sec, Kondo would win. He knows Hijikata...

-MissBehavin


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello, everybody. I am momoiro-usagi.

Although I was not going to come here, there is something to tell
about this subject.

This photograph is entire imitation.
Although sold at the tourist resort in Kagoshima as a photograph of
Bakumatsu shishi, investigation shows that they are the samurais of
the Saga domain in fact.
Since the foreign teacher who was present in Nagasaki went to Edo,
the students held the farewell party.
This is a photograph at that time. Bakumatsu shishi is completely
unrelated.
The Ryoma Sakamoto memorial hall in Kochi city has concluded that
this is imitation. And the ryozen museum in Kyoto is the same
answer.

http://www.e-adept.net/bakumatu/sinbun.htm
http://www.kochi-bunkazaidan.or.jp/~ryoma/faq1.htm

http://www.ryozen-museum.or.jp/1102page.htm

Then, I become silent.

momoiro-usagi




--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, spiritus saitou
wrote:

> And in this corner, the Shinsengumi's opponents...
>
> From a Japanese hotel site, a group photo from 1865 of the Satsuma

gang, including Kawaji, Saigou, Ookubo, Katsura, Kaishu Katsu, Ryoma
Sakamoto... and Barb, is the emperor pictured Komei?

>
> Good luck picking them out! :-D
> http://www.hakusuikan.co.jp/esite/gallery/007.htm
>
> phil
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello, everybody. I am momoiro-usagi.

Although I was not going to come here, there is something to tell
about this subject.

This photograph is entire imitation.
Although sold at the tourist resort in Kagoshima as a photograph of
Bakumatsu shishi, investigation shows that they are the samurais of
the Saga domain in fact.
Since the foreign teacher who was present in Nagasaki went to Edo,
the students held the farewell party.
This is a photograph at that time. Bakumatsu shishi is completely
unrelated.
The Ryoma Sakamoto memorial hall in Kochi city has concluded that
this is imitation. And the ryozen museum in Kyoto is the same
answer.

http://www.e-adept.net/bakumatu/sinbun.htm
http://www.kochi-bunkazaidan.or.jp/~ryoma/faq1.htm

http://www.ryozen-museum.or.jp/1102page.htm

Then, I become silent.

momoiro-usagi



--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, spiritus saitou
wrote:

> And in this corner, the Shinsengumi's opponents...
>
> From a Japanese hotel site, a group photo from 1865 of the Satsuma

gang, including Kawaji, Saigou, Ookubo, Katsura, Kaishu Katsu, Ryoma
Sakamoto... and Barb, is the emperor pictured Komei?

>
> Good luck picking them out! :-D
> http://www.hakusuikan.co.jp/esite/gallery/007.htm
>
> phil
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Leave it to me to find the "fake". :-D

phil (fan of a fake imperial army)

momomanjyuu2004 <momomanjyuu2004@...> wrote:
Hello, everybody. I am momoiro-usagi.

Although I was not going to come here, there is something to tell
about this subject.

This photograph is entire imitation.
Although sold at the tourist resort in Kagoshima as a photograph of
Bakumatsu shishi, investigation shows that they are the samurais of
the Saga domain in fact.
Since the foreign teacher who was present in Nagasaki went to Edo,
the students held the farewell party.
This is a photograph at that time. Bakumatsu shishi is completely
unrelated.
The Ryoma Sakamoto memorial hall in Kochi city has concluded that
this is imitation. And the ryozen museum in Kyoto is the same
answer.

http://www.e-adept.net/bakumatu/sinbun.htm
http://www.kochi-bunkazaidan.or.jp/~ryoma/faq1.htm

http://www.ryozen-museum.or.jp/1102page.htm

Then, I become silent.

momoiro-usagi



--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, spiritus saitou
wrote:

> And in this corner, the Shinsengumi's opponents...
>
> From a Japanese hotel site, a group photo from 1865 of the Satsuma

gang, including Kawaji, Saigou, Ookubo, Katsura, Kaishu Katsu, Ryoma
Sakamoto... and Barb, is the emperor pictured Komei?

>
> Good luck picking them out! :-D
> http://www.hakusuikan.co.jp/esite/gallery/007.htm
>
> phil
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Thank you for telling us the true history of the photo. Welcome to the
email list. It's been a pleasure to read your posts on the message board.

>
>Then, I become silent.
>
>momoiro-usagi>>
>

Please don't remain silent too long, we'd love to hear more from you!

--
Barbara Sheridan
http://www.barbarasheridan.net

>This photograph is entire imitation.

I was gonna say...Katsu Kaishu was a vassal of the Shogun...what's he doing
in the same picture as Takasugi Shinsaku, a man I'm sure he wanted dead? And
on top of that, why was Emperor Meiji even _in_ the picture?

--M.
(whose favorite song is _still_ "Ee ja nai ka, ee ja nai ka...")

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Hirotada Tokugawa <patriot014@...> wrote:

>>(whose favorite song is _still_ "Ee ja nai ka, ee ja nai ka...")<<

Just watch "Red Lion" a few times and that's sure to cure you. :-D

phil


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I thought the whole emperor part was some kind of mis-translation ---
like the program/software mistaken the prince of Satsuma to
be "emperor" or something like that...I may have used the
label "prince" incorrectly...I am currently reading
Mounsey's "Satsuma Rebellion" and it was written in 1879.

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Hirotada Tokugawa"
wrote:

> on top of that, why was Emperor Meiji even _in_ the picture?
>
> --M.
> (whose favorite song is _still_ "Ee ja nai ka, ee ja nai ka...")

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Hirotada Tokugawa"
wrote:

> I was gonna say...Katsu Kaishu was a vassal of the Shogun...what's

he doing

> in the same picture as Takasugi Shinsaku, a man I'm sure he wanted

dead? And

> on top of that, why was Emperor Meiji even _in_ the picture?

Yes.
To be sure, if their position is considered, it will be a strange
talk that Katsu Kaisyu and Takasugi Shinsaku are together.
However, katsu was the teacher of Sakamoto Ryoma and Saigo Takamori
was an acquaintance.
Takasugi were also Sakamoto and an acquaintance.
When it was their mediation, possibly two persons might meet.
(Therefore, those who are deceived and buy this photograph appear.)

It is that Takasugi Shinsaku died in April, 1867.
When this photograph was a thing in 1865, he was still alive.

Katsu negotiated for the armistice of Chosyu and the Tokugawa
government in 1867.


And it is strange that Emperor Meiji is in this photograph as you
say.
If the status distinctions at the time are considered, this will be
an impossible talk absolutely.
Furthermore, although this was a digression, Emperor Meiji abhorred
the photograph.
His vassals were troubled whenever the Emperor's photograph was
needed on friendliness with a foreign country, after becoming Meiji
Era.
Incidentally, Saigo also disliked the photograph.
Now, there is no photograph decided as a photograph of Saigo.

A certain historian announced to the magazine this photograph as a
photograph of Ishin shishi in 1895.
Although judged as the photograph which is completely different as a
result of investigation, in addition to this, there was such an
example.
Now, the photograph which we know as a photograph of Hijikata
Toshizou was believed to be the samurai Hijikata Hisamoto of a Tosa
domain by people of Meiji Era.
It was published as a photograph of Hijikata Hisamoto by the person
dictionary of the time.
And it was sold as a photograph of Hisamoto.
(This will not be based on malice and is a simple mistake.)
Hisamoto played an active part in the alliance of Satsuma and
Chosyu.
He became a minister after becoming Meiji Era.
And he is one of the vassals who worried about Emperor Meiji's
photograph dislike.

Hijikata Hisamoto

http://www.dokidoki.ne.jp/home2/quwatoro/bakumatu2/hisamoto.html

(He is a nice old man.....However, he does not seem to resemble
Toshizou.)

> --M.
> (whose favorite song is _still_ "Ee ja nai ka, ee ja nai ka...")

I sing for you.


Ee ja nai ka, ee ja nai ka, ee ja nai ka.

Chosyu san onobori ee ja nai ka.
(It is good that Chosyu comes to Kyoto.)

Ee ja nai ka, ee ja nai ka, ee ja nai ka.

Satsu to Chou tode ee ja nai ka.
(It is good that Satsu (Satsuma) and Chou (Chousyu) cooperate
together.)

-Onomichi version-

It is the popular song of Bakumatsu. And it is a propaganda song.

momoiro-usagi

>I sing for you.
>
>
>Ee ja nai ka, ee ja nai ka, ee ja nai ka.
>
>Chosyu san onobori ee ja nai ka.
>(It is good that Chosyu comes to Kyoto.)
>
>Ee ja nai ka, ee ja nai ka, ee ja nai ka.
>
>Satsu to Chou tode ee ja nai ka.
>(It is good that Satsu (Satsuma) and Chou (Chousyu) cooperate
>together.)
>
>-Onomichi version-
>

Should have specified that I only liked the refrain (Ee ja nai ka, ee ja nai
ka...), because of what it means (It doesn't matter, what the heck...). I
can do without the rest of the song ;)

--M.

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Yes it is strange. In the fake picture all the men sit very close to
one another.
Emperor Meiji and Saigo disliked the photograph? Emperor Meiji and
Saigo abhorred the photograph because of superstition or traditional
belief?

In the same exact time period in the kingdom of Siam the king Rama V
(King #5 Chakri Dynasty) loved the photograph for friendliness with a
foreign country. Opposite of Emperor Meiji ^_^

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "momomanjyuu2004"
wrote:

> And it is strange that Emperor Meiji is in this photograph as you
> say.
> If the status distinctions at the time are considered, this will be
> an impossible talk absolutely.
> Furthermore, although this was a digression, Emperor Meiji abhorred
> the photograph.
> His vassals were troubled whenever the Emperor's photograph was
> needed on friendliness with a foreign country, after becoming Meiji
> Era.
> Incidentally, Saigo also disliked the photograph.
> Now, there is no photograph decided as a photograph of Saigo.

In a message dated 6/21/2004 1:05:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, momomanjyuu2004@... writes:

> Now, the photograph which we know as a photograph of Hijikata
> Toshizou was believed to be the samurai Hijikata Hisamoto of a Tosa
> domain by people of Meiji Era.
> It was published as a photograph of Hijikata Hisamoto by
> the person
> dictionary of the time.
> And it was sold as a photograph of Hisamoto.
> (This will not be based on malice and is a simple mistake.)

Simple mistake? Or could he have thought no one would bother to remember poor Toshizo anyway and wanted to be remembered as being more handsome than he really was? ^_~

-MissBehavin

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Hirotada Tokugawa"
wrote:

> Should have specified that I only liked the refrain (Ee ja nai ka,

ee ja nai

> ka...), because of what it means (It doesn't matter, what the

heck...). I

> can do without the rest of the song ;)

Sorry, it understood.
To be sure, it is an interesting refrain.


--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "secretary"
wrote:

> Yes it is strange. In the fake picture all the men sit very close

to

> one another.
> Emperor Meiji and Saigo disliked the photograph? Emperor Meiji and
> Saigo abhorred the photograph because of superstition or

traditional

> belief?

I do not know why they disliked the photograph.
When the photograph was imported to Japan, there was rumor that soul
was sucked up by it.
(Although Kondou has hidden both hands in the photograph, it is said
that that is behavior not to take a soul.)
There was a custom which exchanges the Royal Family's photograph in
each country at the time.
Although Emperor Meiji took the photograph in Meiji 6, he did not
take a photograph at all for 15 years after that.
And the request came from the foreign country, saying "We desire His
Majesty's latest photograph." .

> In the same exact time period in the kingdom of Siam the king Rama

V

> (King #5 Chakri Dynasty) loved the photograph for friendliness

with a

> foreign country. Opposite of Emperor Meiji ^_^

Although I do not know the history of Thailand at all, it is
remembered that the king Rama V was the person respected as a wise
king who promoted modernization of Thailand.
Unlike Japan of a maritime power, it is surmised that friendly
relations with a foreign country were probably important for
continental Thailand.

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, Warg3791@a... wrote:
> Simple mistake? Or could he have thought no one would bother to
remember poor Toshizo anyway and wanted to be remembered as being
more handsome than he really was? ^_~

"Simple mistake" means not being a political intrigue.
for me, it is a big mistake (probably, you too).
Probably, people of Meiji Era would not imagine the photograph with
which Hijikata of Shinsengumi wore the France military uniform.


--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, Serizawa Kamo wrote:
> >>4) Masayoshi, no offense intended, but I consider
> Saigo Takamori a hero too :) The Ishin side has also
> plenty of good and worthy man. Weren't for Saigo
> Takamori, who could have understood the plea of
> Yamaoka Tesshu / Katsu Kaishu and avoided bloodshed
> in
> Edo? That's just one example to show that there were
> good men in the Shogunate side and in the Ishin
> side,
> as well as bad men in both, IMHO :)<<
>
> And just possibly Saigou is an example of how a man
> could be both good AND bad... a human condition.

This is the fact which must be accepted although I dislike Saigou.
Although the Chosyu side wanted to surely execute Tokugawa
Yoshinobu, Saigou is the talks with Katsu and it promised to help
Yoshinobu.
Probably, the Tokugawa side continued resistance more, if Saigou
asserted execution of Yoshinobu strongly.
(Katsu was actually making the preparations which burn down Edo.)
Probably, it must have developed into Britain and the proxy war of
France.
Britain sided with Satsuma and Chosyu and France was siding with the
Tokugawa government.


--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, ktamae@a... wrote:
> I say hello to momoiro-usagi san!
> It's very encouraging to see another Japanese member here.
> I appreciate so much your comments on here and on the message
board, as I
> can usually post media related stuffs rather than historical
things.

Konnichiwa Tama san!
I think it very strange to speak to you in English.
(Watashi no mechakucha na eigo wo anata ga akireteiru nodehanaikato
dokidoki shite imashita.)
Although I am not going to write the information on false, it is a
fact that information is also a little partial.
Since you who are a Japanese Shinsengumi fan are, I am very
relieved.

Does Tama san live in the Tama area?
It is imagination from a name.
(Tokyo ni sundeiru kata desu yone?)

momoiro-usagi